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[shinobi602]

Now, all that said, there are some points to be made in favor of the content. My wife pointed out that, if we were to look at what Lara Croft does, going into dangerous territory populated by dangerous men, the likelihood of her being attacked and raped is depressingly high. I know far too many women who have been abused in some way just living in "civilized" society, let alone the wilderness. While it is true that players may want a powerful Lara, it is also true that any woman doing what she does would face an incredibly high risk of personal harm, the kind of harm that many men would find very difficult to understand and relate to.

I also feel that Crystal Dynamics at least deserves credit for giving us something different

I agree.

 

[tiff]

My statement was meant to imply that men and women are different, and displaying strong females shouldn't be just writing a male character and then throwing some boobs on him. Yes, a female is more likely to be physically vulnerable than a male. I don't see why differences like these have to be ignored, as if they don't exist ,for the female to be "powerful" like the men.

Not that the "badass women" trope should never be played but I agree, it often feels to me as a crutch for an author not being able to write women very well but still wanting to include a "strong" woman to seem enlightened or appeal to a certain demographic or whatever other motive.

It's sort of funny to see feminists cheer so loudly for these types of characters when they seem to me to reinforce society's undervaluation of femininity and overvaluation of masculinity, something they really should be against. There are countless women in history who couldn't dream of taking down waves upon waves of men but regardless held great "power" in their own way. Why must even female characters rely so much on physical strength alone?

 

[Nealand Liquor]

Not that the "badass women" trope should never be played but I agree, it often feels to me as a crutch for an author not being able to write women very well but still wanting to include a "strong" woman to seem enlightened or appeal to a certain demographic or whatever other motive.

It's sort of funny to see feminists cheer so loudly for these types of characters when they seem to me to reinforce society's undervaluation of femininity and overvaluation of masculinity, something they really should be against. There are countless women in history who couldn't dream of taking down waves upon waves of men but regardless held great "power" in their own way. Why must even female characters rely so much on physical strength alone?

How would this translate into a game?

 

[firehawk12]

Not that the "badass women" trope should never be played but I agree, it often feels to me as a crutch for an author not being able to write women very well but still wanting to include a "strong" woman to seem enlightened or appeal to a certain demographic or whatever other motive.

It's sort of funny to see feminists cheer so loudly for these types of characters when they seem to me to reinforce society's undervaluation of femininity and overvaluation of masculinity, something they really should be against. There are countless women in history who couldn't dream of taking down waves upon waves of men but regardless held great "power" in their own way. Why must even female characters rely so much on physical strength alone?

Er, as far as I know, most feminists don't think these characters are all that positive precisely for that reason.

How would this translate into a game?

Stealth for one. Intelligence is also another possibility (ie, there's no reason why Professor Layton or Pheonix Wright have to be male as far as I know).

 

[XeroSauce]

Tomb Raider: Other M

Other M never happened.

IT DOESNT EXIST

 

[faceless007]

Not that the "badass women" trope should never be played but I agree, it often feels to me as a crutch for an author not being able to write women very well but still wanting to include a "strong" woman to seem enlightened or appeal to a certain demographic or whatever other motive.

It's sort of funny to see feminists cheer so loudly for these types of characters when they seem to me to reinforce society's undervaluation of femininity and overvaluation of masculinity, something they really should be against. There are countless women in history who couldn't dream of taking down waves upon waves of men but regardless held great "power" in their own way. Why must even female characters rely so much on physical strength alone?

Why are you defining physical strength as a purely masculine trait?

 

[Femmeworth]

Not that the "badass women" trope should never be played but I agree, it often feels to me as a crutch for an author not being able to write women very well but still wanting to include a "strong" woman to seem enlightened or appeal to a certain demographic or whatever other motive.

It's sort of funny to see some feminists cheer so loudly for these types of characters when they seem to me to reinforce society's undervaluation of femininity and overvaluation of masculinity, something they really should be against. There are countless women in history who couldn't dream of taking down waves upon waves of men but regardless held great "power" in their own way. Why must even female characters rely so much on physical strength alone?

Fixed that for you.

 

[NullPointer]

The main reason I always thought Lara was a bad ass was that she was perfectly fine exploring ancient caves in the middle of nowhere all by her lonesome. She also had grace and strength in her movements and could hang off of a cliff-side in zen-like discipline for eternity.

If I was crystal I'd scrap all of the combat and replace it with it with real world-ish climbing mechanics. Have her stretch and chalk her hands up when idle, and show off her abs and ironclad calves even more than her oh-so-legendary bosom.

Now that would be impressive.

 

[tiff]

Er, as far as I know, most feminists don't think these characters are all that positive precisely for that reason.

Well, I'd guess the proportion would depend on who we're considering (the majority of feminist writers feel that way? Bloggers? Anyone who calls themselves a feminist?). It doesn't really matter either way, it wasn't a statement on numbers.

Fixed that for you.

Fixed what? You added a bit of superfluous clarification. Why bother if that's all you're going to bring to the table?

Why are you defining physical strength as a purely masculine trait?

Because Western society does?

 

[firehawk12]

Well, I'd guess the proportion would depend on who we're considering (the majority of feminist writers feel that way? Bloggers? Anyone who calls themselves a feminist?). It doesn't really matter either way, it wasn't a statement on numbers.

Fixed what? You added a bit of superfluous clarification. Why bother if that's all you're going to bring to the table?

Well, certainly academic feminists see the aping of male traits in order to be considered "successful" problematic. I'm not really sure about the opinion in the population as well.

 

[Devolution]

Exactly.

If you write a character that looks like a normal sized female but performs physical feats that only a very strong person twice her size is capable of then it's weird. If you write a female character that is way over 6 feet tall, physically strong and fit, then the female audience isn't going to relate to that character.

I just don't get it.

There's more to the metaphor or concept of strength than physical abilities. What about leadership? Confidence? Motivation? All of these things are way more interesting than "DUDE THAT CHICK JUST KICKED HIS ASS." Because fighting men equally is what makes women strong? Give me a break.

No one is asking for Lara to be able to toss boulders like Chris from RE5.

 

[tiff]

Well, certainly academic feminists see the aping of male traits in order to be considered "successful" problematic. I'm not really sure about the opinion in the population as well.

I can believe that.

 

[Kolgar]

Not sure I want to play Lara Croft: I Spit On Your Grave edition.

I'll just finish Underworld and skip the sadism.

 

[Femmeworth]

Fixed what? You added a bit of superfluous clarification. Why bother if that's all you're going to bring to the table?

You're just coming across as someone trying to belittle the feminist movement.

 

[tiff]

You're just coming across as someone trying to belittle the feminist movement.

I'm not, I'm illustrating how even people who should know better fall victim to these lines of thinking.

 

[Femmeworth]

I'm not, I'm illustrating how even people who should know better fall victim to these lines of thinking.

I apologize then, it was a knee-jerk reaction on my part.

 

[tiff]

I apologize then, it was knee-jerk reaction on my part.

it's cool.

 

[shintoki]

No one is asking for Lara to be able to toss boulders like Chris from RE5.

For.

 

[bhlaab]

Do you want to protect them?

After reading the first page of this thread, it seems a lot of people do!

So many "white knights" in here.

Hahaha

 

[Vermillion]

How would this translate into a game?

Female lead in Watch_Dogs.

...Now that I think about it, that'd be ridiculously badass.

 

[firehawk12]

Female lead in Watch_Dogs.

...Now that I think about it, that'd be ridiculously badass.

I assume there's a weird lore reason why Desmond can't go into the mind of a female ancestor, but there was really no reason why Ezio had to be a man... (other than, of course, it's easier to sell a male character to gamers than female ones) especially when they establish in Brotherhood that anyone can become an assassin.

It's too bad the newest AC dumps the female leads onto a game that won't be played by anyone outside of the four people who own Vitas.

After reading the first page of this thread, it seems a lot of people do!

So many "white knights" in here.

 

[Vermillion]

I assume there's a weird lore reason why Desmond can't go into the mind of a female ancestor, but there was really no reason why Ezio had to be a man... (other than, of course, it's easier to sell a male character to gamers than female ones) especially when they establish in Brotherhood that anyone can become an assassin.

It's too bad the newest AC dumps the female leads onto a game that won't be played by anyone outside of the four people who own Vitas.

I know, right? And it looks so good, too!

 

[tiff]

It's too bad the newest AC dumps the female leads onto a game that won't be played by anyone outside of the four people who own Vitas.

It's pretty ingenious, they get to say they're progressive and no one will get to call them out if they handle it poorly because no one will care!

 

[firehawk12]

I know, right? And it looks so good, too!

I have to imagine it'll get ported to the real consoles and called an "HD remake" at some point, unless Sony paid them big money to keep it on the Vita forever.

It's pretty ingenious, they get to say they're progressive and no one will get to call them out if they handle it poorly because no one will care!

Wouldn't it be amazing if the Vita game had some kind of pseudo-rape/not-really-a-rape/whatever-the-designer-is-calling-it-today scene in it and no one noticed?

 

[Vermillion]

Lol, poor Vita fans trolled all the time.

 

[Dan Yo]

Wouldn't it be amazing if the Vita game had some kind of pseudo-rape/not-really-a-rape/whatever-the-designer-is-calling-it-today scene in it and no one noticed?

"The plot of the game involves the cultural practice of plaçage, where wealthy French and Spanish men have an arranged marriage with a woman of African, Indian or Creole descent"

I'd say it's very likely that rape will play a part in the story.

 

[faceless007]

Because Western society does?

Then you shouldn't be surprised that's precisely the association feminism is trying to erode.

 

[Dan Yo]

Then you shouldn't be surprised that's precisely the association feminism is trying to erode.

Trying to erode what? The perception that men are physically stronger than women?

 

[Vermillion]

Then you shouldn't be surprised that's precisely the association feminism is trying to erode.

So feminine traits are...?

 

[bhlaab]

Trying to erode what? The perception that men are physically stronger than women?

Among other things.

Wouldn't it be amazing if the Vita game had some kind of pseudo-rape/not-really-a-rape/whatever-the-designer-is-calling-it-today scene in it and no one noticed?

It would depend on how it is handled.

 

[Devolution]

So feminine traits are...?

Feminine is still associated with "weak." That's the issue.

 

[tiff]

Then you shouldn't be surprised that's precisely the association feminism is trying to erode.

Fighting a biological truth will be a bit difficult for them.

 

[Dan Yo]

Among other things.

Good luck with that one. Would involve censoring whole parts of human biology textbooks for a start, but I'm sure they'll pull it off someday.

 

[Uchip]

Feminine is still associated with "weak." That's the issue.

Ill protect you devo

 

[WanderingWind]

Clearly, we need a spreadsheet that has clearly defined "feminine" and "masculine" traits, and what each one of those traits denotes.

That would clear up a lot of this.

 

[NullPointer]

So feminine traits are...?

Good question.

 

[Vermillion]

Feminine is still associated with "weak." That's the issue.

Hmm. I think we're mixing up all types of weak and strong here. There's the physical side and then there's strength/weakness as a concept. I think that people tend to associate femininity with weakness as a concept (similarly to how people may associate non-violence or not being willing to kill with being weak).

 

[Vermillion]

Clearly, we need a spreadsheet that has clearly defined "feminine" and "masculine" traits, and what each one of those traits denotes.

That would clear up a lot of this.

The only thing I can give you without controversy is being a father is a masculine trait and being a mother is a feminine one. Cop out? Absolutely.

Fake edit: Competitiveness is a masculine trait - I think we established that in the booth babe thread when I asked why more women don't play traditional games. I would presume, then that being cooperative is a feminine trait - at least in the terms if the video games each gender plays.

 

[Devolution]

The only thing I can give you without controversy is being a father is a masculine trait and being a mother is a feminine one. Cop out? Absolutely.

Fake edit: Competitiveness is a masculine trait - I think we established that in the booth babe thread when I asked why more women don't play traditional games. I would presume, then that being cooperative is a feminine trait - at least in the terms if the video games each gender plays.

Honestly I don't really see one gender exhibit a positive trait that the other cannot express/possess. I think the binary aspect of the whole thing is stupid and insulting to what either gender (or other genders) are capable of.

 

[Riposte]

The only thing I can give you without controversy is being a father is a masculine trait and being a mother is a feminine one. Cop out? Absolutely.

Fake edit: Competitiveness is a masculine trait - I think we established that in the booth babe thread when I asked why more women don't play traditional games. I would presume, then that being cooperative is a feminine trait - at least in the terms if the video games each gender plays.

Competition is universal. Cooperation is simply a joint-effort in competition, even if isn't against other humans.

No one answered my question about AAA game demographics.

 

[Vermillion]

Honestly I don't really see one gender exhibit a positive trait that the other cannot express/possess. I think the binary aspect of the whole thing is stupid and insulting to what either gender (or other genders) are capable of.

Competition is universal. Cooperation is simply a joint-effort in competition, even if isn't against other humans.

No one answered my question about AAA game demographics.

I never said that these were traits the other gender could not possess. Personally, I prefer cooperative gaming, and I could care less about competing against others online.

Another: Empathy would be a feminine trait, a masculine trait would probably be attempting to fix problems (no word for it I can think of right now)

Masculinity might be more agressive as well (violent). Femininity is more patient.

At the very least, these are the stereotypical traits - I could certainly be wrong. A typical human being should contain variations of those traits, both masculine and feminine

 

[tiff]

Honestly I don't really see one gender exhibit a positive trait that the other cannot express/possess. I think the binary aspect of the whole thing is stupid and insulting to what either gender (or other genders) are capable of.

I don't really think it has to be binary or exclusionary. I mean, I can lift heavy things or change my oil or do other "manly" things, but were you to ask me I'd say I probably exhibit more feminine traits than anything.

 

[Jake Tower]

Honestly I don't really see one gender exhibit a positive trait that the other cannot express/possess. I think the binary aspect of the whole thing is stupid and insulting to what either gender are capable of.

The correct term is sex.

 

[bhlaab]

Good luck with that one. Would involve censoring whole parts of human biology textbooks for a start, but I'm sure they'll pull it off someday.

So you're saying that any male is going to be physically stronger than any female 100% of the time?

Or are you saying that it is OFTEN true? Because that doesn't make it a fact. It makes it a correlation. And correlations can be modified by any number of societal biases.

 

[firehawk12]

The correct term is sex.

Yeah, sex is biological, gender is a social construct.

 

[faceless007]

Good luck with that one. Would involve censoring whole parts of human biology textbooks for a start, but I'm sure they'll pull it off someday.

I'm not aware of any biology textbook that says using physical strength is something only men do and not women.

 

[Jake Tower]

Yeah, sex is biological, gender is a social construct.

Gender is grammatical concept.

 

[Riposte]

I never said that these were traits the other gender could not possess. Personally, I prefer cooperative gaming, and I could care less about competing against others online.

You are not getting it. All games are competitive.

 

[Devolution]

I never said that these were traits the other gender could not possess. Personally, I prefer cooperative gaming, and I could care less about competing against others online.

Another: Empathy would be a feminine trait, a masculine trait would probably be attempting to fix problems (no word for it I can think of right now)

Masculinity might be more agressive as well (violent). Femininity is more patient.

At the very least, these are the stereotypical traits - I could certainly be wrong. A typical human being should contain variations of those traits, both masculine and feminine

I attempt to fix problems. I know men who empathize quite better than other women. I really don't see the point in taking character traits and saying they are more likely to be exhibited by men or women unless we're talking about a very restrictive culture/time period.

 

[toastyToast]

With how games almost solely revolve around inflicting violence on one thing or another, strong always seems to imply a protagonists aptitude at committing acts of genocide. Something that historically men are more capable of. Femininity to CD is moaning whenever Lara gets hurt, and to really get that across she gets the shit kicked out of her to make it clear.

I think whatever they had in mind could have been executed without any other characters. Like maybe a young Lara is stuck out in the wilderness alone with bears and elks -> there are tombs and shit -> she kind of likes it -> the end

They created a situation that they won't be able to navigate their way out of.