tarzanpuyol
Member
Interesting topic but I feel that the financial responsabilities nowadays are greater than previous generations. Having said that I continue to save as much as possible.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Younger Generations Lag Parents in Wealth-Building
- Thread starter entremet
- Start date
- Status
You're an idiot. People have stated valid reasons why the internet is a crucial component of their lives. You then type out the usual "First world problems" bullshit like that means something. Tell me, how do you get to work? Do you drive a car? A bus? How about you fucking walk to work and save money on the gas or metrocard. The cost of the internet is completely irrelevant to the question posed in the OP and your stupid distractionary tactics are a waste of everybodies, those who answered you anyway, time.
Let's assume that internet is $100 a month at home. That's $1200 a year. That isn't going to do jackshit.
Right, but my point is that american consumer behavior is the primary culprit for all these stories about people with good jobs that can't save money. Just look at the example in the OP, the 28-year old with 1,800 in take home pay. 500 dollars of her take home pay is going right back out the window to pay down her credit card debt. The average american household that has debt has something like 15k in credit card debt ALONE. I'm going to go waaaaay out on a limb and assume most of that is discretionary.
Spending is the basis of our economy, yes. But Americans have gotten used to spending like a drunken sailor in port and it's a hard habit to break.
Omegasquash
Member
Their kids can't get money because their parents are hording it all for themselves. the average 20 - 30 something wasn't there to reap the benefits of the Reagan years. Mom and Pop were.
And we're also kind of entitled, too. Yes, it costs more to live and get educated now, but we also spend money (generally) on lots of stuff. I'm more guilty of it than most, to be fair.
And we're also kind of entitled, too. Yes, it costs more to live and get educated now, but we also spend money (generally) on lots of stuff. I'm more guilty of it than most, to be fair.
Do you know what is on her credit card debt? People use credit cards to put off bills from prior months.
I use a car.
And again I state since you like others aren't going to read how I addressed this already, internet by itself is not going to be much, but when you add it up to all the other luxury expenses you have such as a cell phone, credit card debt, eating out, partying, etc., that does not leave much in savings. $1200 might not seem much to you, but if you invest that and get a modest return of 4-5% let's say in mutual stocks in a retirement account for until the day you retire, that adds up as a lot of money. Keep saving $1200 a year for 10 years and you have $12,000. Things that are small in amounts add up and this is the case with discretionary items/services that are bought.
Yes, people in this thread continue to try to justify using the internet at home, but let's be honest, most of the people who use the internet at home probably spend 90% of their time on Facebook, Youtube, Netflix, and other entertainment sites. Maybe even more time than that.
For people who are serious about saving they can get rid of the internet and save up money. Furthermore, I am not saying the internet does not have its uses at home, but there are alternatives to doing things like paying bills by mail and using free internet services at the library. Of course, most of us pay for the convenience of using the internet at home. If I am really honest with myself, I don't NEED the internet at home, I just WANT it.
AstroNut325
Member
It's the opposite for me. My parents had nothing,. They were first generation immigrants to the US (within my overall family). They had to work 2 jobs for many years just to make ends meet. Never had any savings whatsoever. Lot of credit card debt.
I have it better now (after college). I have savings, a retirement plan, and some nice luxuries like gaming consoles and such.
I have it better now (after college). I have savings, a retirement plan, and some nice luxuries like gaming consoles and such.
Excuse me, where exactly are the convenient internet centers located? How about storing information of private value? Have you actually ever worked in a library? I have. Service, cleanliness, availability, and consistency for the quality of internet use are often spotty at best and rarely matches that of even a decent simple home computer setup. What do you suppose people should do if your suggestion is adopted en masse and libraries are burden with additional usage? Oh let's not mention that libraries are a regular target for funding cuts. Where exactly do you suppose poorer people go use the internet should a public service becomes unavailable?
What you're proposing is taking what you've now admitted to be a common utility out of the home. All the while ignoring the fact that spending extra time, resources to use said resources is an actual drain on how time can best be utilized and assuming that the same utility can be derived from having home service. As for the "entertainment purposes" argument, you are actually aware of the fact that human beings need to be entertained and humored and are in fact, not raw productivity machines, right?
What I'm arguing, is that your points are poorly thought through, have no basis in reality, and is justified by nothing by hackneyed political ideals existing in a vacuum.
Alright, what's the nearest distance to a library for you and what are the hours of operation for said library?
Not having internet at home is like not having a home phone landline used to be. How often did people use that land line back in the day? And yet it was still needed for that small percentage of time you utilized it. I know people that work at a chain restaurant that have to do online training every now and again. Let that sink in. They're bartenders and waitresses and they need the internet to complete their work duties (ideally they'd do at work and get paid for their time, but it doesn't work out that way). The internet is a thing you're assumed to have just like a telephone number or an email address.
Not to mention that living in the 21st century is very different than living in the late 20th century. Cost of living -- food and expenses -- is orders higher than a couple of decades ago. Access to the internet is a basic need.
Great post.
tarzanpuyol
Member
the thing with argueing about canceling X or Y is that different things have different values to everyone, they key to saving is to live within your means, maybe dont get a mortgage that eats 50% of your income, dont max the credit cards, dont eat out too much.
And the one thing a lot of people dont do, make a budget and stick to it, things like savings should be considered an expense like cable, water, power, etc. think short term and long term, if you know you are going to need a new set of tires, put some money aside a year before it to soften the blow.
simple things that make a difference, sure I could cancel the satellite, but you need to reward yourself otherwise it will feel like you are not doing anything for yourself.
And the one thing a lot of people dont do, make a budget and stick to it, things like savings should be considered an expense like cable, water, power, etc. think short term and long term, if you know you are going to need a new set of tires, put some money aside a year before it to soften the blow.
simple things that make a difference, sure I could cancel the satellite, but you need to reward yourself otherwise it will feel like you are not doing anything for yourself.
out0v0rder
Member
the rent is too damn high.
What would happen if we didn't have those instruments to stave off paying now?
There'd be a lot less individuals with debt.
The personal responsibility slant is a hard one to argue when the capitalists in this country have single-handedly engineered financial collapses more than once with wanton disregard for the wellbeing of their constituency. In short: your argument is (mostly) insane. We spend more now than is necessary, but we've been given the tools of our own destruction. The only folks who trust the collective financial consciousness of the american people are the moneyhats. They trust us to screw up.
But that's only true if you assume that they're only using credit cards for discretionary spending. I see plenty of credit card usage for doctor's bills, and medications. Car broke down? Don't have hundreds in cash? Credit card. Hell, NPR did a story about people who were unemployed and had to live on credit. It's not so simple to be able to say, "there's a lot of credit card debt. Ergo everyone is irresponsible." It's a chicken and egg thing, you say people are irresponsible and therefore are broke. I say people are broke and therefore do irresponsible things.
lol good luck trying to find a place to live in San Fran that doesn't take up more than a third of your paycheck and make less than 100k.
tarzanpuyol
Member
If you cant afford it, you cant afford it, maybe look moving to an affordable city where you can match your income with your expenses.
Sometimes I get the feeling that we have people getting homes, before they can get the job to pay for it.
The key for individual savings is indeed to live within your means, but the key to collective savings would seem to be to raise the means itself.
America is really crazy about this sort of stuff. We don't know how or when to separate blame and solutions from individual and collective cases. When an individual is spending too much and getting into debt it's an individual problem. When we as a collective are having trouble, then it's a collective problem. It's no longer applicable to try and give out individual solutions anymore when you have a collective problem.
In this case we definitely have a collective problem. Part of the solution might be more collective education on finances and money management, but since the evidence also says we have a collective problem of stagnating wages for the middle class across the board, only a silly person wouldn't want to address that part of the collective equation, too.
Or, more likely, we have things happen and people lose those jobs that were fine paying for it. Perhaps they had medical bills that suddenly came up. Perhaps they lost that job. Shit happens, and now our society is much less equipped to deal with that sort of thing since we don't have an extra worker sitting around anymore. We're largely 2 job households, and if even one of those incomes go down the whole house of cards falls. In the 70s you could make it on one salary, and if something happened where you needed more or someone got ill, the other could pick up a bit of slack. These are the sorts of things that start happening when wages across the board stagnate like they have.
But your argument is coming back as if the internet was the only form of entertainment available. Humans do need to be entertained, but the internet is not the only form of entertainment. Go play basketball, ride a bike, swim, etc. There are ways to be entertained without the spending of money.
What part of my argument is not based on reality? Just because you say that doesn't make it true. At least go through my points and list them if you're going to argue that rather than throwing out a generic not based on reality. Is saving money not a reality? Are the majority of people using services like Facebook, Youtube, Netflix, etc. not a reality? What part is not a reality to you?
Who cares if you have worked in a library? That doesn't mean anything. I used to live in a world where there was no internet, but that doesn't mean jack shit. So every library is supposed to be like yours, inconsistent internet and quality? BS. Personal anecdotes and all that.
So if you're going to argue, argue the points that I have made rather than throw out generic bullshit that I never even mentioned. People can still use the internet at work and different places for important things. Don't try to BS me and say that everything you do on the internet is super 100% important and productive that you need it all the time.
My library is about 2-3 miles away. Easy walk if I wanted to. They are actually opened every day, even weekends. But that's just my library.
I mentioned that I understand that if the internet is needed to make money, then it's a good investment. I can't argue with that.
Quick question:
Do you live in the United States, now?
ThisWreckage
Banned
If you're from a middle class family you're likely going to end up much worse than your parents are. That's going to be especially true for me. The funny thing is that I'm more educated than both of my parents, but I won't even approach what they've accumulated due to my father's business acumen.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Why are we bringing internet service into this when, if we get real: internet is the new telephone. You used to need a phone at home for basic functions. Now you need internet (and probably use it for phone service).
To be clear, nothing says you have to go get the most expensive internet package or service possible in your area. But even with the inadequate state of broadband service in the US, you should be able to get cheap internet for basic utility in most places.
To be clear, nothing says you have to go get the most expensive internet package or service possible in your area. But even with the inadequate state of broadband service in the US, you should be able to get cheap internet for basic utility in most places.
AdventureMike
Member
Quit bringing rationale into this debate. We don't need to progress standards of living past the last century or be competitive candidates for employment.
Bull. I suggested no such thing. You're the one proposing that entertainment on the internet is a waste of resources. Meanwhile, you have been explained to over and over again the specific utilities that the internet does provide and that it's an expected norm amongst household utilities and an expected method of readily available communication medium. That you actually compared this with a social expectation of racking up credit card debt is the height of not being grounded in reality. Speaking of BSing, find me where I even REMOTELY hinted at suggesting that mine or anyone else's internet usage is always important or that it's needed "all the time". It's almost as if you don't know the difference between needing something all the time and requiring having access to something all the time.
This library vs. world where was no internet comparison suggests to me that you don't have an inkling of critical thinking skills in you. What does living in an age where a utility wasn't the norm have to do with pointing out that relying on a free public service which may not be consistently reliable nor readily available isn't sufficient to provide said utility to all who needed it? Are you actually suggesting that using the internet for personal use at work is actually preferred to doing so at home from a personal OR social standpoint?
We are in a thread discussing intergenerational wealth building, which is simmering in the context historically unprecedented wages gaps, and you are suggesting that:
Really? Where's reality now?
beat
Member
Fuck that. Yes, median income has been stagnant (or worse!) since 1999. But adjusted for inflation, median income has been seriously lagging GDP growth since 1970.
Why are people saving less? Because they're making less, or even if they've been barely keeping pace with inflation, the pie overall has gotten bigger and their slice has kept on shrinking.
(or yeah, what The Technomancer and apesh1t said.)
THANK YOU. Yes. This. It should be an auto-reply to those "damn poor people and their iPhones" nonsense. If people want more details, she also wrote a paper on this topic: http://www.yale.edu/law/leo/052005/papers/Warren.pdf
The paper specifically addresses Enron's "buying too much home, too much car" myths, BTW. Yes, new homes are more expensive and bigger than they were. But median income people are more and more getting by with OLD houses, not big fancy new ones. Yes, people are spending more on cars. Specifically, mostly on a second car, because today's suburb/exurb dual-income families need a second car. Now, there are some other expenses on top of that, mostly about safety. Some of that is pure consumer preference; a lot of it has been government-mandated.
What middle-class people are ACTUALLY spending more money on is fixed costs: housing (and not even for better houses), tuition (tuition quality has hardly jumped as fast as tuition prices), insurance, and that second car.
(and if Warren's paper convincingly lays out why it's tough for the middle class, then please believe that it has gotten tougher, not easier, for the poorest 20%. Yes, even if they can afford a DVD player and a microwave now.)
speculawyer
Member
Ironically, you are one of the people guilty of encouraging such behavior. You mock every plug-in and hybrid car that gets discussed. Well, the average family is now spending $3K/year on gasoline which is literally just burned up. And that is a terrible thing to spend money on because it pollutes, it changes the climate, and nearly half the money is shipped out of the USA to some foreigners. That money that they could be spending on other things that would help the economy instead of making our trade deficit even worse.
It is nice that you finally brought some data into the discussion with the savings rate graph but you need context to interpret that data. Why has the savings rate dropped so low? Well part if that is because people just have less extra money to save. They have student loan payments, increase gas prices as discussed above, higher food prices, etc.
But what is one of the big increases? Increased housing payments because housing prices kept rising during that whole time of reduced savings. Look at where the savings rates started going back up . . . when the housing bubble popped. And those rising home prices are a double edged sword . . . they made it harder on younger generations to earn wealth and they were the source of increased wealth for the older generation! That right there is a huge difference between the two generations . . . a luck of timing.
SlipperySlope
Banned
I agree. I'll add that what kids seem to remember most is the most recent financial ability of their parents. They don't remember or weren't around when their parents had no money, had to live in an apartment, no cable, one single corded landline phone, no Internet, no cell phone. Limited money to go out and have fun. One small TV that has 13 channels run by antenna, if that. Cooking food at home.
Our generation spends money they don't have. It's not complicated.
SlipperySlope
Banned
I'll add.
My wife entered this country 6 years ago with only 2 thousand dollars. That went to the first few months of expenses. She went to school full time working on her Ph.D. program. Technically, she was working at school on the program. She made only 20K a year.
Yet when she graduated, she had 30K in cash with zero debt. Still making only 20K a year. She lived very frugally, said she found her first bed in the trash. Walked everywhere, hardly ever drove.
Her major was in Chemistry. No minor.
My wife entered this country 6 years ago with only 2 thousand dollars. That went to the first few months of expenses. She went to school full time working on her Ph.D. program. Technically, she was working at school on the program. She made only 20K a year.
Yet when she graduated, she had 30K in cash with zero debt. Still making only 20K a year. She lived very frugally, said she found her first bed in the trash. Walked everywhere, hardly ever drove.
Her major was in Chemistry. No minor.
Boomers and the generations that came afterwards have not been savers or fiscally responsible. People who grew up in the GD? Sure, but boomers were sure as shit not living a spartan life. Instead of cable and smartphones they were buying houses in the burbs, fancy new appliances, nice cars, etc, all stuff that was more expensive back then (what is more expensive now is school and health care)
I find it pretty absurd that a society can blame people for not being fiscally responsible and not saving enough when our whole society is revolved around buying the next new gadget, upgrading to a nicer car, acquiring the next piece of consumer shit to impress people. All of this is re-inforced by advertisements, friends, family, facebook, etc
Buy this next new thing, you need it to impress your friends/boss/GF whatever! Oh, you didnt save enough money? Well, you sure are fucking stupid!
PflargBlarg
Member
I'm bringing talk back to the original article.
She's 28, 2 degrees, lives in Brooklyn. And makes only 1800/month? And then a ton of that goes to debt. I understand the need for people to do something that they enjoy in school as opposed to strict practicality, but this is totally absurd.
I made more than that a month when I was 19, having just graduated with a 2 year diploma. The 2 years of school cost me around 8000 dollars. The little education debt I had left at the end of school was paid off in less than 6 months. I've never held rolling debt on a credit card. I live in Vancouver, the most expensive city in North America (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...pensive-city-to-live-economist_n_2631806.html).
Things must be appallingly different in the states for this to have happened, someone explain this to me.
She's 28, 2 degrees, lives in Brooklyn. And makes only 1800/month? And then a ton of that goes to debt. I understand the need for people to do something that they enjoy in school as opposed to strict practicality, but this is totally absurd.
I made more than that a month when I was 19, having just graduated with a 2 year diploma. The 2 years of school cost me around 8000 dollars. The little education debt I had left at the end of school was paid off in less than 6 months. I've never held rolling debt on a credit card. I live in Vancouver, the most expensive city in North America (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...pensive-city-to-live-economist_n_2631806.html).
Things must be appallingly different in the states for this to have happened, someone explain this to me.
SlipperySlope
Banned
Playing the blame game isn't beneficial. People need to be responsible for the decisions they make. Wow, I've been saying this a lot lately...
Yep I totally agree, the financial industry should take responsibility for what they have done(the systematic dismantling of the American economy).
Most people follow cultural norms. Its reality. Right now our cultural norm is to spend, not save.
beat
Member
$1800/mo isn't that great, but wages aren't doing so hot. If you made more than that at 19, great. So did I. I was lucky to be in a high-wage field and I can certainly recognize a lot of people aren't.
Second, tuition in Canada has shot up a lot, but I guarantee you it's still even more expensive in the US.
*headdesk* The 'cultural norm' excuse is a great way to blame victims and pretend we're not all screwed. If you look at the stats, like Elizabeth Warren did (cited upthread), she found that we're not spending more on discretionary items than our parents. Our fixed costs have gotten way more expensive, and it's not even that we got more luxurious housing or cars for that money.
Great post.
Ageism is alive and well.
The Wanderer
Banned
Here's hoping the mistakes you've highlighted are rectified in the future. A country outsourcing all of its manafacturing, coupled with a car-dependant culture cannot climb out of such a mess without fundamental ideological rethinks.
Playing the personal responsibility game isn't beneficial. Society needs to be responsible for coming up with solutions to the collective problems it has. Wow, I've been saying this a lot lately...
soul creator
Member
It seems odd that people really think one day that in 2008, millions of people throughout the world just randomly one day decided to wake up and become unemployed. Or that they just made a free choice one day to have bad health insurance. Or that everyone just decided one day to use credit cards for the fun of it. Or a bunch of folks in the 80's just woke up one day and made a decision in a complete vacuum to sell drugs and get imprisoned for it.
All of a sudden apparently, millions of people just instantly decided out of nowhere to all of a sudden "make bad decisions", completely unaffected by the larger societal context they found themselves in.
Do people think that our brains are completely unaffected by our environment? Because that seems to be ultimately what some people are arguing.
All of a sudden apparently, millions of people just instantly decided out of nowhere to all of a sudden "make bad decisions", completely unaffected by the larger societal context they found themselves in.
Do people think that our brains are completely unaffected by our environment? Because that seems to be ultimately what some people are arguing.
Rocket Scientist
Member
If this was a rape thread the amount of bans due to ridiculous and unfounded victim blaming would have left a massacre. It's as if people don't even pay attention at the reality when it comes to income inequality, stagnating and declining incomes, increasing cost of living, health and education. The op even talks about some of these things. Yet its about how people are buying iphone or watching cable or having Internet.
PaulExcellent
Member
This scares me.
I got about 6k in savings for a rainy day, paid my current college classes the day I signed up, and work part time with a nice salary.
I still feel like it's just not enough.
I got about 6k in savings for a rainy day, paid my current college classes the day I signed up, and work part time with a nice salary.
I still feel like it's just not enough.
Jack Remington
Banned
Well said.
People in their 40s, 50s and 60s right now are squeezing the future out of the younger generation, and then they have the gall to talk about how it's the government's fault that they'll leave behind a worse country for their kids?
Very well said. Conservative bootstraps ideology is a cancer.
You drive an Infiniti luxury car.
MWS Natural
Member
Thanks for posting this.
Ton of folks these days entering college for throwaway degrees that are a waste of money. Smothered in $30K-100K of debt and with the best job prospects a $40K/yr position it's no wonder they're suffering. Add car payments, maybe a house mortgage, etc and you got a person that's literally smothered in debt.
Looking back, what's really scary is that we make life-changing decisions right when we're feeling reckless and invincible. In a way that's a way to get the truly talented to where they need to be, but that comes at the expense of screwing a bunch of folks over that might not be able to quite cut the mustard. I had the option during HS of going to a local state college close to full-ride (shitton of scholarships cobbled up together can make for a nice sum), or a slightly more "prestigious" school and rack up $60K in loans over 4 years. since I'm a cheapass bastard by nature I took the former approach, but there's a ton of folks that take the latter... and like the people in OP's article, it potentially ruins their lives. Learning's important, but holy shit people need to be given reality checks before moving on to college. If I had slightly larger aspirations I could very well have been in a shithole situation myself.
Looking back, what's really scary is that we make life-changing decisions right when we're feeling reckless and invincible. In a way that's a way to get the truly talented to where they need to be, but that comes at the expense of screwing a bunch of folks over that might not be able to quite cut the mustard. I had the option during HS of going to a local state college close to full-ride (shitton of scholarships cobbled up together can make for a nice sum), or a slightly more "prestigious" school and rack up $60K in loans over 4 years. since I'm a cheapass bastard by nature I took the former approach, but there's a ton of folks that take the latter... and like the people in OP's article, it potentially ruins their lives. Learning's important, but holy shit people need to be given reality checks before moving on to college. If I had slightly larger aspirations I could very well have been in a shithole situation myself.
- Status