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[djtiesto]

Something I was thinking about whilst playing Hotline Miami. Lately there seems to be a slight trend of extremely challenging platformers/action games that emphasize quick restarts, lots of checkpoints, and very little penalty of death. The antithesis of arcade games we tried to 1cc or 8-bit era game with limited lives, limited checkpoints, and limited continues. You know the games - Super Meat Boy, vvvv, Prinny, etc. Some call this type of game design "savestate design" and its easy to see how it could be inspired by those who quicksaved/quickloaded, or credit-fed their way through classic games on a NES emulator or MAME.

So, Is this type of design preferable to you guys over what came before? I know there are people like Tain out there who dislike this type of game design, though to me it seems a lot of people prefer these "quick restart" games to the games of old.

For me, I prefer when games punish you a bit more for death (not necessarily to the point of something like Demon's Souls, or for something like Ninja Gaiden 3 NES where you have limited continues and when they run out, you're bumped back to the beginning of the game, and that one is pretty long and difficult )...

...Why? Because, with a lot of these "quick restart" games, I never feel I'm actually gaining a mastery over the level designs/mechanics the way I do something more methodical, slower-paced, but still very challenging like say, a NES Castlevania or Mega Man game. Like, I'll beat a level in Hotline Miami, Super Meat Boy, etc. and feel that it was a fluke more than anything else... This became very apparent when going through the Hotline Miami levels again to collect the masks and puzzle pieces I missed - I realized that I'm still having tons of trouble making my way through, that its luck more than skill, and when I do get through I am not even getting close to the high score I got the first time through the levels. Meanwhile, I've been playing Mega Man 6, 9 and 10 (games that have limited lives, limited checkpoints, and a bit more of a penalty for death) and there were a few places (especially in 9) where the levels took me a number of tries to make it through. But once I did that I definitely felt I grasped the game's mechanics much better, the enemy's patterns, the movement and precise control of my character*, like I actually could say that after beating all the regular robot masters in 9 I feel some semblance of mastery over the game.

Spoiler

No I haven't been able to beat the Wily castles of 9 or 10 yet even though I have beaten 1-6 multiple times

*OK well I've been playing the MM series since 1989 but you get the point

 

[d0c_zaius]

super meat boy has checkpoints?

In Meat Boys case, the fact that they show you how many deaths it took (and all at the same time) very much reinforces the value of not dieing. Plenty of people try to "1cc" every meat boy level.

Also in the case of SMB, the game has so much content, its about progression and overcoming obstacles, not mastering a single stage (beyond the A+ rankings).

In SMBs case, and also VVVVVs, I like it. Since you can die quite easily in Hotline, it would be lame to have more time added before you can restart gameplay.

Easier/ quicker you can repeatedly die, the quicker you need to get the user back into compelling gameplay.

 

[Arlecchino]

If it's possible, fast respawning is one of the best things you can add to your game.

 

[dave is ok]

Looking at a loading screen or a countdown timer every time you die is horrible. Hotline Miami and Super Meat Boy are two of my favorite games this gen

 

[Riposte]

It is a plague. Any game with it greatly hurt by it.

EDIT: It is one of the reasons why I don't think Super Meat Boy, Mark of the Ninja, VVVVVV (w/e) are much good.

 

[LuchaShaq]

If I'm going to be playing a crazy hard game you have to have two things for me to appreciate it.

Super responsive flawless controls.

Instant or near instant respawn.


I'm too busy to spend 30% of my leisure time at a load screen because I'm having trouble with a game.

Hell one accidental death on an easy fps level annoys me more than 40 deaths in super meat boy because I don't have to wait in smb.



I actually didn't find Dark Souls hard and I LOVED the bosses.

Problem is the trash mobs between bosses were basically a long unfun loading screen to get to the fun parts.

If Dark souls was just boss fights (even if they were made much harder) and had rapid respawn I would consider it one of the best games this gen.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Like almost every mechanic it has its place. Super Meat Boy and Hotline Miami need it because they have relatively small levels and are very fast-paced and very unforgiving. If not for the almost instant respawns both games would be incredibly frustrating. Ninja Gaiden and Mega Man are rather different. I personally like both.

 

[sixghost]

Put more of an emphasis on getting better at the game and completing levels in style. I probably took way longer to beat Hotline Miami than most people, but the second time I played through those levels I absolutely plowed through them because I had a great grasp of the mechanics.

Same thing with Super Meat Boy. I would play a level until I got the bandage and A+ time. No one is forcing you to rush through these games. This type of game design allows you to have fun and try crazy shit. If dying in Hotline Miami meant losing more than a minute of progress, I would have played that game in a much more cautious, boring way.

 

[etiolate]

Death is a punishment in and of itself. It's the idea that you failed that is punishment.

What these games do is incorporate death into the fun of the game. Challenge should be from the task at hand not in the time spent getting back to that challenging task.

These are also games with very binary outcomes. You enter the level and then you either die or succeed.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

...Why? Because, with a lot of these "quick restart" games, I never feel I'm actually gaining a mastery over the level designs/mechanics the way I do something more methodical, slower-paced, but still very challenging like say, a NES Castlevania or Mega Man game.

Bingo.

Both styles can be done well, but for me, the anxiety felt immediately prior to successfully marathoning an hour-long arcade style challenge combined with the elation felt afterwards is definitely superior to banging my head against numerous walls until it works.

 

[Riposte]

Death is a punishment in and of itself. It's the idea that you failed that is punishment.

What these games do is incorporate death into the fun of the game. Challenge should be from the task at hand not in the time spent getting back to that challenging task.

These are also games with very binary outcomes. You enter the level and then you either die or succeed.

"Death" can lose meaning. Do you really die if you hardly notice?

How do you feel about running marathons?

 

[d0c_zaius]

"Death" can lose meaning. Do you really die if you hardly notice?

How do you feel about running marathons?

how can death lose meaning when you have to start back at the beginning of the level every time (as in SMB). It's the same thing Demons Souls does.

Also seeing a ton of little Meat Boys jump to their death in the level completion replay reinforces the fact that it was a significant challenge.

(yes, I dont think SMB should be included in this list as it doesnt have checkpoints)

 

[Zia]

I think artificial difficulty is fine when it comes to slower-paced games that require pattern memorization (Dark Souls, Cave shmups) as opposed to a more ludic skill set. I don't think it'd really benefit something like Super Meat Boy, which is more traditional game, or sport, versus the aforementioned games, which are modern puzzles.

 

[iconoclast]

how can death lose meaning when you have to start back at the beginning of the level every time (as in SMB). It's the same thing Demons Souls does.

Also seeing a ton of little Meat Boys jump to their death in the level completion replay reinforces the fact that it was a significant challenge.

(yes, I dont think SMB should be included in this list as it doesnt have checkpoints)

Stages in Meat Boy are also like 60 seconds long. That's why death is meaningless, you lose practically no progress whatsoever when you fail. You get to try over and over again until you reach the goal and move on to the next bite-sized stage.

Compare this to a 30+ minute long arcade game. The final boss can either make or break your entire run - making a single mistake could mean you'll have no chance at beating your previous best, which means you'll have to start over for another opportunity. Being able to perform well *consistently* is where the challenge comes from. If you could save before a boss and/or between every stage, it would make them 1000x easier.

 

[justjustin]

It is a plague. Any game with it greatly hurt by it.

Right on. A game littered with checkpoints feels like a giant crapshoot-- no incentive to improve how you play, and you'll never get that feeling of performing really well. Your past actions have little bearing on what happens later on in the game, which makes the whole thing feel like a bunch of mini-games strung together to waste your time. Added checkpoints rectify nothing and make no game better. At best, they mask bad game design so you won't have to suffer through sections of the game again. If the game is good, you won't mind repeating sections since you can always see room for improvement and better prepare yourself for later parts of the game. This is true in many arcade action games and shooters. Compare that to Super Meat Boy where your only reward for clearing a stage is to never have to endure it again.

And on the subject of difficulty, looking at my Steam library I see I "beat" Super Meat Boy (not messing with the dark world stuff) in 3 hours. In no world is this a hard game if it can be finished so quickly. It took me about a month of infrequent play to beat Black Tiger for the arcade. Maybe three weeks for Rastan Saga. And a whopping three MONTHS to finish Tatsujin. These games clock in at about 30-60 minutes in length each. Despite all that repetition, it was a blast each time I sat down to play them. I don't want to play Super Meat Boy again.

 

[Canis lupus]

Oh the horrors of having to start back at the beginning of a level. Since trial&error games are build on the concept of replaying the same level over and over again, they're forgiven.

 

[RiccochetJ]

More Valkyries!

Honestly I suspect I would have never finished SMB if it didn't immediately restart me. The negative levels... *shudder*

 

[EvB]

I quite like it, I actually really like the older COD games for it on Veteran mode.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

The antithesis of arcade games we tried to 1cc or 8-bit era game

The antithesis of those are actually the games never actually kill you AND have tons of ways out of it.

As for the topic, the issue is that negative reinforcement is alien to many now. They hide this behind misdirections like "I'm too busy to spend 30% of my leisure time at a load screen because I'm having trouble with a game" or "They shouldnt' do that, it's bad game design!" or "Im only here for the story" but the fact remains so few games do this any more that it's a shock first not a wake up call for discipline and self-betterment.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Rapid respawn with checkpoints every 10 seconds (or micro levels) is becoming one of the worst trends in gaming.

 

[djtiesto]

Good to see pretty much everybody I was looking forward to comment did, except one person (you know who you are!). Hell the checkpointing has even gotten out of hand in RPGs, I remember back in the day a lot of my favorite RPGs were attrition crawls (where you'd have limited MP and a limited inventory), so you had to make sure to conserve resources and play cautious.. if you didn't want to lose 20-30 min of progress. Of course there are still games like the SMT titles that keep this.

 

[Rubius]

Its beginning to look a lot like Dustbowl... playing TF2 with instant respawn is like playing vs Kamikaze.

 

[revolverjgw]

Put more of an emphasis on getting better at the game and completing levels in style. I probably took way longer to beat Hotline Miami than most people, but the second time I played through those levels I absolutely plowed through them because I had a great grasp of the mechanics.

Same thing with Super Meat Boy. I would play a level until I got the bandage and A+ time. No one is forcing you to rush through these games. This type of game design allows you to have fun and try crazy shit. If dying in Hotline Miami meant losing more than a minute of progress, I would have played that game in a much more cautious, boring way.

Totally. Death can almost be a treat because I can get in there and try a new strategy that just popped into my head without worrying about being punted back to previous sections that don't challenge me anymore. I love the reckless experimentation it encourages.

 

[Tain]

I don't think I have much to add!

Maybe just that the importance of checkpoint spacing depends heavily on the quality of everything else in the game. I'm fine restarting Espgaluda from the beginning and I'm fine rolling a large battle back in Serious Sam 3, but further spacing out the checkpoints in a game like Uncharted 2 might be a bad idea because I'd have to spend more time playing individual sections that simply aren't good enough to hold up for that long. Same reason nobody wants to sit through the a single cutscene repeatedly.

Looking at a loading screen or a countdown timer every time you die is horrible. Hotline Miami and Super Meat Boy are two of my favorite games this gen

This isn't really the same thing. I think that pretty much everybody can agree that having to rewatch a cutscene or sit through long loading times or whatever upon retrying a difficult segment is unbearable.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Yeah, loading times don't really have anything to do with the topic.

 

[fallagin]

They both have their place, I think that other than in roguelikes rapid respawn makes the game a better experience.

 

[dorkimoe]

Worst thing ever. It turns into a race to the checkpoint

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

If I'm going to be playing a crazy hard game you have to have two things for me to appreciate it.

Super responsive flawless controls.

Instant or near instant respawn.


I'm too busy to spend 30% of my leisure time at a load screen because I'm having trouble with a game.

Hell one accidental death on an easy fps level annoys me more than 40 deaths in super meat boy because I don't have to wait in smb.



I actually didn't find Dark Souls hard and I LOVED the bosses.

Problem is the trash mobs between bosses were basically a long unfun loading screen to get to the fun parts.

If Dark souls was just boss fights (even if they were made much harder) and had rapid respawn I would consider it one of the best games this gen.

I agree with this post. Tedium != challenge.

 

[Incendiary]

...Why? Because, with a lot of these "quick restart" games, I never feel I'm actually gaining a mastery over the level designs/mechanics the way I do something more methodical, slower-paced, but still very challenging like say, a NES Castlevania or Mega Man game. Like, I'll beat a level in Hotline Miami, Super Meat Boy, etc. and feel that it was a fluke more than anything else...

I actually feel the opposite, especially in the case of Super Meat Boy. Playing the same level so many times really makes me conscious of every little thing I'm doing, so when I do finally beat one of the harder levels I feel way more accomplished.

 

[jman2050]

News flash: Death is suppose to be inconvenient and undesirable. That is why you try to not die.

 

[TheSeks]

Prinny's 9999 lives don't really counter the old-school jump mechanics for me. I love the game and it's flavor, but the gameplay with that jumping mechanics absolutely kills most of my love for the game and it's "one hit kill" mechanics.

If I'm going to be playing a crazy hard game you have to have two things for me to appreciate it.

Super responsive flawless controls.

Yep, that's one of my problems with Prinny. It's controls are responsive but there's some jumps that are just old-school "LOL FUCK YOU LOL" that make me irritated.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Yeah rapid respawn is definitely not for me.

A lot of the entertainment value in difficult games comes from those times where I get "in the zone". I'm dodging all of the attacks, successfully surviving the worst situations, and then I enter some sort of euphoric state that I only come down from if/when I die. The more progress I make without getting a game over or whatever the higher the stakes raise, and the more intense everything becomes. Sometimes I'll need a cold shower just to recover from some games.

A lot of the difficulty in Hotline Miami just comes off as kinda bullshit. I'm dying to ridiculous stuff like my aim being off by centimeters. This isn't invigorating, it's just me getting taken out of the moment again and again.

Super Meat Boy...well...I just hate modern platformers in general.

*Shrug* I liked everything about Dark Souls. Learning how to avoid fights can be just as much as fun as the combat itself.

 

[jman2050]

Hell one accidental death on an easy fps level annoys me more than 40 deaths in super meat boy because I don't have to wait in smb.

The funniest part about this sentence is that you're implying this is a bad thing.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I think the crux of my issue with these sorts of games is that they don't really feel like they have any significant highs or lows; no real risk or reward. It's difficult to feel accomplishment in something that you can brute force your way through.

 

[sixteen-bit]

No sense of danger, no fear of failure, ultimately forgettable and not very fulfilling.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't think I have much to add!

Maybe just that the importance of checkpoint spacing depends heavily on the quality of everything else in the game. I'm fine restarting Espgaluda from the beginning and I'm fine rolling a large battle back in Serious Sam 3, but further spacing out the checkpoints in a game like Uncharted 2 might be a bad idea because I'd have to spend more time playing individual sections that simply aren't good enough to hold up for that long. Same reason nobody wants to sit through the a single cutscene repeatedly.



This isn't really the same thing. I think that pretty much everybody can agree that having to rewatch a cutscene or sit through long loading times or whatever upon retrying a difficult segment is unbearable.

One of the big things this reminds me of is how story/dialogue/cutscene-intense the replayed section is. Those things never change, and are often internalized. You can't "improve" yourself of the watching them. Games with tons of that are harder to swallow (how many games commit you to watching looooooooong shit-talk pre-fight scene between the two combatants? or tons of chit-chat during the level?). Those are more than fine to be "Press Start to Skip" or not replay.

I agree with this post. Tedium != challenge.

Effectiveness confirmed!

 

[famousmortimer]

Do we have to pick one type? Because I like both...

 

[ZealousD]

If you're making a game where multiple tries/restarts are expected than I say the less downtime between deaths the better.

I don't find waiting 10 seconds for the retry option to pop up and then spending another 5 seconds waiting for the game to load and doing this over-and-over-and-over again is a valuable way to spend my time.

 

[alr1ght]

Hotline, VVVVV, and SMB are some of my favorite games from the last few years. I also love Demons/Dark Souls as well. They both have their place.

Loading screens are a plague.

I don't see how you get "lucky" in Hotline Miami. All movements need to be planned out in advance. It's almost a strategy game.

 

[kunonabi]

It is a plague. Any game with it greatly hurt by it.

EDIT: It is one of the reasons why I don't think Super Meat Boy, Mark of the Ninja, VVVVVV (w/e) are much good.

I completely agree with this. Horror games have been hurt this trend as well.

 

[KittenMaster]

I feel like this recent trend makes levels in games, be it a frustration platformer or your typical FPS play from a room to room basis where parts feel too self contained rather than designing and balancing a level as a whole.

Another reason I'm thankful ZombiU exists.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I don't find waiting 10 seconds for the retry option to pop up and then spending another 5 seconds waiting for the game to load and doing this over-and-over-and-over again is a valuable way to spend my time.

Loading screens are a plague.

This thread isn't really about those things imo. It's more about the expected frequency and consequence of death and how different games are structured around that.

 

[jman2050]

Waiting a few seconds between death isn't as much of an annoyance when you're expected to play longer than 15 seconds between deaths.

 

[ArynCrinn]

super meat boy has checkpoints?

In Meat Boys case, the fact that they show you how many deaths it took (and all at the same time) very much reinforces the value of not dieing. Plenty of people try to "1cc" every meat boy level.

Also in the case of SMB, the game has so much content, its about progression and overcoming obstacles, not mastering a single stage (beyond the A+ rankings).

In SMBs case, and also VVVVVs, I like it. Since you can die quite easily in Hotline, it would be lame to have more time added before you can restart gameplay.

Easier/ quicker you can repeatedly die, the quicker you need to get the user back into compelling gameplay.

Not quite. There are some insanely skilled gamers.

If these games OP mentions didn't have rapid respawn or quick levels, they'd be harder and more frustrating than Gun.Smoke. Although I'd love to see a honest reimaging of Battletoads and Ghouls N' Ghosts someday.

 

[luka]

i don't play any game that makes me feel like i'm abusing save states on an emulator like i'm some 15 year old playing castlevania for the first time. They're not tense, rewarding, or fun.

 

[Tookay]

It is a plague. Any game with it greatly hurt by it.

EDIT: It is one of the reasons why I don't think Super Meat Boy, Mark of the Ninja, VVVVVV (w/e) are much good.

Totally disagree. When it is rooted in the right game (highly unforgiving, fast-paced like SMB or HLM), it greatly enhances the experience for me. Failing after one mistake is already punishment enough. I don't need to sit through continue screens, loading screens, watch my lives decrease, get kicked back to the level select, or any of the like.

All that fluff gets in the way of the pacing and flow of an intense game session, to say nothing of it sucking up your own personal time.

 

[luka]

All that fluff gets in the way of the pacing and flow of an intense game session, to say nothing of it sucking up your own personal time.

the incredible pacing of those amazing 30 second SMB levels.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I'm not a big fan of these micro-super difficult levels built around quick respawns, either. I don't like Super Meat Boy, and I don't like VVVVVV.

I do not like it, Sam I Am.

 

[fallagin]

What these quick respawn mechanics afford a game is that they can make the gameplay more unforgiving without totally turning off the player. Playing battletoads is like a lesson in masochism without save states. I can see the fun of trying to do it and the accomplishment of doing it without losing your lives, but for the average person this is just not reasonable.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Playing battletoads is like a lesson in masochism without save states.

Limited continues isn't what makes Battletoads absurd. It just isn't a very well built game.