Draugoth
Gold Member
The development of the Yuzu was permanently halted, but the popular Nintendo Switch emulator will continue to live on thanks to multiple projects that were recently launched.
Via Wccftech
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The development of the Yuzu was permanently halted, but the popular Nintendo Switch emulator will continue to live on thanks to multiple projects that were recently launched.
Via Wccftech
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
The Not-Yuzu emulator.
Krappadizzle
Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
Kind of an important point, no? Because by the terms of the settlement, Yuzu devs are prohibited from working on Yuzu or Yuzu-derived projects.
So they basically need to find new people willing to work on an emulator and willing to take time to get used to the codebase. Good luck.
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tommycronin
Banned
Currently looking for scapegoats
LordOcidax
Member
ReyBrujo
Member
Posted it in the main thread but well...
See nuzu's developer profile:
A (maybe) 15-yeard old boy with 30 commits in one year who had to edit the README 13 times and didn't even kept the whole history tree.
Now Suyu: The guy didn't even know he was using the wrong pinEApple code, he did not understand an issue which was brought to him and since he didn't know how to fix it he asked others to do it. I doubt he's qualified to even setting up the project (which is what I think he wants, getting developers on there but being seen as "founder" or "leader" even if he's technically not capable).
Yes, some might go help but as soon as they realize the keeper is an a**hole who only wants to give orders they will leave. I have seen that happen dozens of times.
Nintendo's blow was direct at the team, they effectively forced them to retire. The code can be cloned but without them (who accounted for the vast majority of the changes) the project will slow down immensely and eventually stop. It's much better going to help Ryujinx who still is on track, who got people who know what they are doing and who are (still) doing it for passion and not money or contempt.
See nuzu's developer profile:
A (maybe) 15-yeard old boy with 30 commits in one year who had to edit the README 13 times and didn't even kept the whole history tree.
Now Suyu: The guy didn't even know he was using the wrong pinEApple code, he did not understand an issue which was brought to him and since he didn't know how to fix it he asked others to do it. I doubt he's qualified to even setting up the project (which is what I think he wants, getting developers on there but being seen as "founder" or "leader" even if he's technically not capable).
Yes, some might go help but as soon as they realize the keeper is an a**hole who only wants to give orders they will leave. I have seen that happen dozens of times.
Nintendo's blow was direct at the team, they effectively forced them to retire. The code can be cloned but without them (who accounted for the vast majority of the changes) the project will slow down immensely and eventually stop. It's much better going to help Ryujinx who still is on track, who got people who know what they are doing and who are (still) doing it for passion and not money or contempt.
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Peroroncino
Member
Shakka43
Member
This Yuzu situation reminds me of what happened with YouTube Vanced a couple of years ago, they were fine for a while but then started using their projects as a money makers instead of side hobbies, they flew to close to the sun and got burned. There is ReVanced now so who knows, maybe these forked projects can amount to something too in the future.
ManaByte
Gold Member
And people willing to be ass fucked by Nintendo.
nkarafo
Member
And how exactly can anyone check whether or not these devs are working in something they shouldn't? What stops them from contributing under different accounts?
diffusionx
Gold Member
I mean, they're free to try, but if they get caught (and you're nuts if you think Nintendo won't be checking), they're fucked. Is it really worth the trouble so you can write patches for your bing bing wahoo emulator?
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How would Nintendo find out if the yuzu devs worked another project? Unless they have there government names.
Mr1999
Member
Not very smart on Nintendo's part. All they did was draw more attention on switch emulators by taking down Yuzu. 2.4 million dollars or however much it was is chump change for Nintendo, they didn't get anything out of it, actually, its as if they want emulation to grow even more. Big loss for Nintendo.
bender
What time is it?
Posted it in the main thread but well...
See nuzu's developer profile:
A (maybe) 15-yeard old boy with 30 commits in one year who had to edit the README 13 times and didn't even kept the whole history tree.
Now Suyu: The guy didn't even know he was using the wrong pinEApple code, he did not understand an issue who was brought to him and since he didn't know how to fix it he asked others to do it. I doubt he's qualified to even setting up the project (which is what I think he wants, getting developers on there but being seen as "founder" or "leader" even if he's technically not capable).
Yes, some might go help but as soon as they realize the keeper is an a**hole who only wants to give orders they will leave. I have seen that happen dozens of times.
Nintendo's blow was direct at the team, they effectively forced them to retire. The code can be cloned but without them (who accounted for the vast majority of the changes) the project will slow down immensely and eventually stop. It's much better going to help Ryujinx who still is on track, who got people who know what they are doing and who are (still) doing it for passion and not money or contempt.
ReyBrujo
Member
You are reading it completely wrong. The goal was to force them to stop developing, not to recoup damages (which they might go after if they break the settlement. The risk of the Streisand Effect is relatively low, it's not as if a common Joe can download the emulator, the rom and start playing, there are still several steps that need to be done. Yes, now more people know there's an emulator called Yuzu but if they didn't care about it before why would they care about it now. And it's not as if you will get a thousand developers deciding to help the project out of spite because, well, the yuzu team wasn't that much loved in the emulation community.
If they want to sue this new group of people Github or Gitlab can be subpoena'ed to give away registration mails which can be traced to IP addresses or real people. And once they discover they are the same people they can be sued for the total amount of damages (say, 1 million TotK pirated copies at 70 USD each, for example). You seem too eager to have them back working in the emulator regardless of whether they end up in prison.
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kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Yep. Yuzu is dead in the water. But this gives Ryujinx the opportunity to implement Yuzu code to improve their own emulator. And perhaps some of the former Yuzu devs can help. It shouldn't be very difficult to remain anonymous, especially if they don't leave a money trail. But it could well be they're not interested in doing all of that work without any substantial monetary compensation.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Well, yeah, it's open source. It's gonna be damn near impossible to put the genie back in the bottle.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
They wanted to cut out the for profit angle. The potential to make a decent living making an emulator will draw in plenty of fully committed talent - doing it for free as a hobby - not so much. It was very smart on Nintendos part.
diffusionx
Gold Member
GitHub isn't anonymous, and these Yuzu devs were apparently really chatty, openly talking about their intentions and behavior on Discord, which also isn't anonymous.
Look, I'm just saying, if anyone smart enough to work on an advanced emulator decides to do something as dumb as explicitly violate the terms of the settlement, I would be surprised. The settlement says they can't work on Yuzu and they can't work on Yuzu source code. They can still program though, and they can put their programming talents to use in ways that doesn't put them potentially on the hook for millions of dollars of damages they have to pay the rest of their life - Nintendo has shown they're not scared of doing that. I would not expect much of these projects going forward.
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nkarafo
Member
There's absolutely nothing wrong or illegal about getting paid for making emulators.
It’s not being to eager. I’m just saying nothing really stops the former yuzu devs from working on another emulator not named yuzu and they remain anonymous. It’s a possibility that some could help with Ryujinx.
Roman Empire
Member
Who in their right mind would get involved with this? You should be cautious to not end up as a scapegoat for the project devs.
ReyBrujo
Member
Well, that hit the screw in the head, you reached the right conclusion but with the wrong idea.
There are a couple of things that people need to understand about developers: first of all, we are arrogant (as Uncle Bob says), we create things out of nothingness, we are able to make machines do what we want. We have control over things. I don't say we see things like Neo in the Matrix but we see deep beyond the software, we know how many or all the things are done and we are able to notice how to exploit them. So, after being so recognized in the development community starting from scratch as a contributor anonymously is really harsh. The compensation is not always monetary, it could be prestige, being able to say "I did a thing" (btw go check his channel, he's great).
The second thing is that a passionate developer loves what he does, we return home and continue coding, we code on weekends out of passion, not necessity. So while the idea of being forced to stop developing something you created and worked on for so long is harsh, the idea of being sentenced to not being able to use a computer or develop software is hellish. I cannot picture myself working as anything else but a developer, and I think those guys felt the same. The risk is just too high. Not even mentioning that having your name appear in a federal case isn't resume material.
So, unless they are teenagers and utterly dumb they won't be back at emulating Nintendo consoles (I would risk to say, they will never emulate again) unless they want to end like Gary Bowser.
Regarding Ryujinx implementing Yuzu code, the licenses are not 100% compatible. Ryujinx is licensed under MIT and the code they were to pick is licensed under GNU GPL3. So even if they could they shouldn't if they want to keep their contributors. It's more a matter of ethics than legality as the GNU GPL3 yuzu code is effectively dead and nobody would sue them for including it.
LordOcidax
Member
2.4 million for Nintendo is nothing, for a normal Joe is a lot… And with Yuzu losing, a lot of Joes are not going to take the risk.
Hugare
Member
As stated before on this thread, they dont know what they are doing. But their heart seems to be at the right place, I'll give them that.
It'll be much better to develop an emulator from scratch. Yuzu already had problems (like the 0.0 bug) that the devs themselves didnt know where to start looking from in the code.
I doubt that Strato will stop. So that would be the best shot at Switch emulation without Yuzu.
It'll be much better to develop an emulator from scratch. Yuzu already had problems (like the 0.0 bug) that the devs themselves didnt know where to start looking from in the code.
I doubt that Strato will stop. So that would be the best shot at Switch emulation without Yuzu.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
If you are squeaky clean on everything, maybe. Dolphin have been around for ages and have been as anti-piracy as an emulator team can be, but they still backed down on the steam release. The opportunity to make money is always at risk, this just proved it, not going to be worth it for most.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Perhaps Ryujinx devs are driven entirely by passion instead of money. But the people behind Yuzu specifically asked for donations so they could have developers working full time on this project.
nkarafo
Member
They can still profit from patreon or donations. STEAM was a silly move though, yeah.
Mr1999
Member
Some of the most downloaded files I have come across of Yuzu are all-in-one installation packs where you just download a compressed file, extract it and its all setup for you, game, prod keys, cheats, firmware, and all, most people who don't want to sit around and watch a youtube video on how to install Yuzu, went that route, by that time, you just end up double clicking the game to run, its that easy. IMO If they wanted these guys to stop developing, they should have done it ages ago, pretty much all the worthwhile games are playable now.
Maybe they are doing this in anticipation of their next console? Which I'm sure by that time someone else will develop for. Lets be honest here, the reason why Nintendo has issues with piracy to begin with is because of poor security for their games and how easy it is for peoples hardware to emulate them. If they had a system that was in par with whats available now, even if there was an emulator for it, it would be out of reach for most people.
The problem is they have a games that even guys with old computers are capable of running. I bumped into an old friend few weeks ago, he was playing tears, and he has a toaster of a machine, doesn't know anything about computers and even he managed to get it running by installing packs. I know its been said before, but Nintendo should go the Sony route, build a high spec system, have a true revival of Ocarina of Time, similar to FF rebirth and watch as no one will be emulating it for a very long time, that's the only way because piracy will continue on for Nintendo.
diffusionx
Gold Member
They should go submit their resume to Night Dive or WayForward or M2 or whomever.
ReyBrujo
Member
Nintendo isn't dumb, they knew they couldn't do anything against emulation. They sent their ninjas to patrol their Patreon, their Discord and collected evidence. It could have taken then years but eventually the devs became cocky and started allowing certain things in their Discord. And once they posted pictures of a game being emulated before it has been officially released they got enough for a DMCA claim. Yes, the fact that the Switch 2 is approaching might also influenced. Yes, the fact that Switch 2 having backwards compatibility might mean it would be hacked pretty quickly might also influenced. But I am guessing it was mostly waiting until they messed it up, and eventually they did.
mrcroket
Member
Not to discourage but someone has downloaded the yuzu source code and uploaded it under another name, this is not continuing the project. Making an emulator is a very complicated task, it needs people with extensive knowledge about programming on the 2 levels and the emulated hardware, and understanding of the source code and its current state, especially if it is a fairly developed emulator,
LectureMaster
Member
nkarafo
Member
It's not unheard of. After Near died, the Ares emulator changed hands almost instantly and it's now both very active and in a very good shape.
And it's a multi-system emulator too. With a very accurate N64 core, one of the hardest systems to emulate.
Chupanibre
Member
mrcroket
Member
Ares did not stop its development because of a lawsuit though. I would be surprised if talented developers decide to pick up a project that has ended in this way, especially just when it has just happened.
nkarafo
Member
I was commenting about whether it's difficult or not for an emulator to switch hands, in terms of tech, programming, etc.
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mrcroket
Member
What I wanted to say is that an emulator like yuzu is not a project that can be carried out by random people who are not fully involved. You need people who are knowledgeable and willing to dedicate some of their time on a constant basis doing something that can take you to court.
ReyBrujo
Member
That depends on whether the people who took charge after that were already members of the development team (which I guess) or they took it from scratch. In this case the whole team was removed. It takes months, years to learn where everything is and become fully productive. There are +450k lines of core code.
And there's a lot of "overhead", you need to get used to a different code style (otherwise you would spend years refactoring everything to make it feel familiar), you need to learn the background of the code (as to not inserting bugs because of adding stuff that was already removed before), you need to create a whole testing structure which they didn't have (which would prevent you from breaking the software with any single code) (or if it wasn't saved, I see a docker image but nowhere to be seen), etc.
It's not a big project by any mean (in software 5m lines of code is considered a small project) but if you are not getting paid and only spend free time as a hobby it will take a lot of time.
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willothedog
Member
Thought Valve removed it after a DMCA notice from Nintendo and the Dolphin team did not bother to contest.
AREYOUOKAY?
Member
So long as they keep begging for Patreon bucks then it’s easy whack off jackpots for Nintendo.
ReyBrujo
Member
No, Nintendo never DMCA it. Valve asked Nintendo and Nintendo told them not to upload it due DMCA.