Support NeoGAF

[Durante]

This post is right on point and I'm surprised by how clueless lots of opinions are in this thread. Carmack giving his support, and showcasing the kit with a custom version of Doom _is_ a huge deal and was one of the reason why the Oculus got some much tracktion in the early days. People who are downplaying this werent following this when it came about.

I don't know if you are including me here, but I very much was following the Oculus since its inception, and I'd never downplay Camack's contributions.

I just disagree in the strongest possible terms with the idea that a company "owns" whatever its employees decide to do in their spare time.

 

[plagiarize]

This post is right on point and I'm surprised by how clueless lots of opinions are in this thread. Carmack giving his support, and showcasing the kit with a custom version of Doom _is_ a huge deal and was one of the reason why the Oculus got some much tracktion in the early days. People who are downplaying this werent following this when it came about.

Carmark and the Doom brand are equals to Miyamoto and Super Mario. Imagine if Miyamoto started showing a Mario game demo based on some new third party piece of hardware and that suddenly he left Nintendo to work with them full time and then the company got megarich. Nintendo would be like wtf wheres our cut yo

Carmack's influence was gigantic back in the days, he created (with others) Wolfenstein and DOOM, games that changed the landscape of gaming FOREVER and influenced almost EVERYTHING WE PLAY TODAY. Him suddenly leaving iD was an incredible shock to people who have been playing his titles since the early beginning, and him quitting iD was impossible to imagine.

His influence when it comes to technology was and still is epic. It's hilarious to see gaffers discard him because of Rage.

I feel Zenimax has a legitimate claim in this.

to what, specifically though? to the motion sensing chip he used that was a third party chip that he made custom changes to, that Oculus themselves don't use? to the implementation of warping and motion tracking in Doom 3 BFG edition, which Oculus themselves haven't based any of their code on?

 

[Paches]

I don't know if you are including me here, but I very much was following the Oculus since its inception, and I'd never downplay Camack's contributions.

I just disagree in the strongest possible terms with the idea that a company "owns" whatever its employees decide to do in their spare time.

Is it possible though that Carmack contributed significantly to OR on Zenimax company time?

 

[GreatestHits]

Just realised my username is part of theirs. Goddamnit.

Time to ban yourself.

Looking at Zeni's track record, it looks like without Bethesda, they wouldn't be shit. Am I right?

 

[Minions]

How dare they require financial compensation for services rendered, I feel sick to my stomach. DatEvilCorp

Services rendered generally come with contracts involved. If Zenimax didn't get a contract I don't see how they are going to accomplish anything by seeking compensation. Verbal contracts are not worth anything anymore. He said she said is never successful as there is no way to prove anything.

Zenimax may have gotten burned... or they may have gotten greedy. They rejected Oculus offers and wanted more. At that point they were (basically) getting extorted. This is why you always get agreements before you do the work. If you mow a lawn and the guy doesn't like how much you are asking for after the fact, you are kinda SOL.

 

[plagiarize]

Is it possible though that Carmack contributed significantly to OR on Zenimax company time?

no. I mean he was programming support for VR headsets into Doom 3 BFG edition and promoting said support on their time, but that's only contributing significantly to OR if adding 3D support is contributing significantly to Sony's TV set division.

 

[unbias]

how is this shady? This is how business works.

This is how dirty business tactics work, but it isnt considering playing the game clean. These are some very dirty tactics, but Zeni is known for trying hostile take-overs through manipulating contractual obligations and putting companies in a bind. The company IS shady,imo, based on what we know and their business practices are dirty. Stuff like this is what gives the financial industry a bad name, and these tactics are no different. Ya it is how a lot of businesses work, and a lot of businesses are shady.

I don't know if you are including me here, but I very much was following the Oculus since its inception, and I'd never downplay Camack's contributions.

I just disagree in the strongest possible terms with the idea that a company "owns" whatever its employees decide to do in their spare time.

This right here also. Businesses that feel they own everything a person does if it isnt literally in contract is just deplorable.

 

[davepoobond]

Holy shit zenimax is an evil company leave Facebook, the true Angels of business alone you big jerks!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I don't understand why people are against Zenimax here. They backed this young unknown group from the start, and then that group went and sold their product for $2billion based in part on Zenimax' commitment and the their talent (who Oculus would poach).

Have to agree with this, really. But it's hard to know what went on behind the scenes.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

ZeniMax is starting to sound like a really shitty company. Especially after all the Prey 2 stuff.

"Starting to"? They've been scumbags for years.

 

[Minions]

no. I mean he was programming support for VR headsets into Doom 3 BFG edition and promoting said support on their time, but that's only contributing significantly to OR if adding 3D support is contributing significantly to Sony's TV set division.

The way I see it that was promoting their own game and potential sale(s). Any work on DOOM was just as much helping Zenimax as Oculus.

 

[unbias]

I don't understand why people are against Zenimax here. They backed this young unknown group from the start, and then that group went and sold their product for $2billion based in part on Zenimax' commitment and the their talent (who Oculus would poach).

Ha, you kidding me? Zenimax didnt do this out of the kindness of their heart. Chances are high, they would do anything they could to strong arm these guys into Zenimax's control.

 

[Totobeni]

Well, this sounds kind of shady on paper. But in reality, Zenimax gave a lot of support to Oculus, including some of their employees, at a critical point in the company's life. If it weren't for them, Oculus might not be as big as it is today. They're currently trying to get some equity because of this, and have cancelled Doom:BFG because of it. I'm not usually a fan of Zenimax's legal practices, but it seems to me like this is somewhat warranted.

At first blush, it seems pretty damn shady, I'll give you that.

Carmack made Oculus into what it is, and he did it while promoting Doom 3. He made the SDK. He created first playable demo. He personally contacted sensor manufacturers to create for him new firmware that will boost sensor rate to 1000mhz. He did it as Zenimax employee, and he openly talked about his involvement. Nobody can deny that. All the initial press was there because Carmack was behind the device.

If Zenimax thinks that hey were not compensated enough, they will pursue legal actions. There is nothing wrong with that.

yeah. I don't really see the "shady practices" from Zenimax here, same with Carmack thread some days ago which any company will do if their employee was working on other company's product.

I think people go "Fuck evil Zenimax" mode automatically just because of the track record of Zenimax (which is the Human Head/Prey 2 case... which we still don't know the full story from both sides).

 

[squidyj]

ITT: crybabies who need their diapers changed.

Zenimax hasn't done anything wrong.

Well... not in this instance... that we know of.

 

[plagiarize]

The way I see it that was promoting their own game and potential sale(s). Any work on DOOM was just as much helping Zenimax as Oculus.

basically, yes. if Carmack's VR work was something he handed over to Oculus, then yeah... bad John... but he almost certainly didn't. That got Doom 3 BFG edition plenty of coverage, and Zenimax were the ones that decided to throw that all away in an attempt to aggressively take over or gain stake in Oculus, basically.

 

[plagiarize]

yeah. I don't really see the "shady practices" from Zenimax here, same with Carmack thread some days ago which any company will do if their employee was working on other company's product.

I think people go "Fuck evil Zenimax" mode automatically just because of the track record of Zenimax (which is the Human Head/Prey 2 case... which we still don't know the full story from both sides).

again, how did Carmack 'work on' either the Rift, it's SDK or it's motion sensing setup? he helped promote it, certainly, but that's as much as you can say.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

This is how dirty business tactics work, but it isnt considering playing the game clean. These are some very dirty tactics, but Zeni is known for trying hostile take-overs through manipulating contractual obligations and putting companies in a bind. The company IS shady,imo, based on what we know and their business practices are dirty. Stuff like this is what gives the financial industry a bad name, and these tactics are no different. Ya it is how a lot of businesses work, and a lot of businesses are shady

You are letting their shady practices cloud your judgement over this case. What is dirty business tactics here? They were paying an employee (maybe more) to work on something and wanted to get compensated for it. They ended up not giving away a product for free. We don't know how much money if any they were offered to release doom 3 but they obviously thought equity would give them more money in the long run.

 

[AkuMifune]

How dare they require financial compensation for services rendered, I feel sick to my stomach. DatEvilCorp

No No: Oculus is Cinderella, Facebook the prince and Zenimax just the evil stepmom!

John Romero always a wicked step-sister.

 

[plagiarize]

You are letting their shady practices cloud your judgement over this case. What is dirty business tactics here? They were paying an employee (maybe more) to work on something and wanted to get compensated for it.

They were paying John to add support to Doom 3 BFG edition for a third party peripheral. He wasn't working on developing that third party peripheral, even though he helped promote it and jerry rigged his own motion sensing chip in order to perform his work before Oculus had their own motion sensing solution in place.

that's no different from developers that have modded their Rifts already to provide the kinds of higher resolution screens on them that Oculus have yet to provide.

 

[JNT]

I don't know if you are including me here, but I very much was following the Oculus since its inception, and I'd never downplay Camack's contributions.

I just disagree in the strongest possible terms with the idea that a company "owns" whatever its employees decide to do in their spare time.

I don't know about spare time. I mean, Carmack did show up at E3 with an Oculus prototype showcasing Doom. I wonder who's dime he did that on?

 

[Minions]

yeah. I don't really see the "shady practices" from Zenimax here, same with Carmack thread some days ago which any company will do if their employee was working on other company's product.

I think people go "Fuck evil Zenimax" mode automatically just because of the track record of Zenimax (which is the Human Head/Prey 2 case... which we still don't know the full story from both sides).

They never got any form of contract when they decided to do all this? People don't do shit without contracts if they are expecting money. That is not how these things work.

The way I see it (I could be completely wrong); Carmack started working with the Oculus team and then Zenimax found out. They pretty much decided not to fight Carmack over it thinking that if anything became of it they would be able to make money off it. Carmack probably threw out the idea of Doom BFG to help the big wigs get over him working with Oculus. Everything was going to plan until Zenimax decided to decide on terms for Doom BFG... and "Carmacks" support. Oculus makes an offer that Zenimax does not like; they reject it (Don't know if they had other offers or just one); Oculus says screw Doom and decides to go on without it; Zenimax sues because they think they deserve money for the time and Carmack working with Oculus.

I think Zenimax screwed up; I could be completely wrong with the conjecture about these events but I think something along those lines (perhaps not in that exact order) occured.

TLDR: Don't go on business ventures without contracts; I want to reiterate the above may not be correct at all; I just seems logical.

 

[Turin Turambar]

How dare they require financial compensation for services rendered, I feel sick to my stomach. DatEvilCorp

Who said that Oculus didn't want to pay for Doom BFG?

I understand they wanted to pay in money (what a weird thing!), and Zenimax wanted equity in the company.

 

[plagiarize]

I don't know about spare time. I mean, Carmack did show up at E3 with an Oculus prototype showcasing Doom. I wonder who's dime he did that on?

Since he was showcasing Doom, I'm sure he did that as official business. he was promoting Doom 3 BFG edition after all, a product that had received no small amount of hype for promising to offer VR support.

 

[call_kotaku]

I guess Carmack is really regretting the Zenimax buyout now

 

[shinra-bansho]

This right here also. Businesses that feel they own everything a person does if it isnt literally in contract is just deplorable.

AFAIK, typically intellectual property created in the course of someone's employment and/or as a result of work paid for does belong to the employer unless otherwise explicitly and contractually specified .

Whether that's the case here is another matter.

It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

 

[syko de4d]

So, Oculus dont use a single code, technology or patent from zenimax. So what is left is that John supported Oculus with his name and tinkered with the HMD, but nothing from that is in one of the shipped Oculus Rifts. Yes he promoted it and that helped Oculus alot, but thats like a youtuber promoted a indi game and it became a success because of that. You dont own a part of something because you promoted it.

 

[Boudica]

I really am starting to dislike Zenimax as a company. Sounds like it's run by children.

Would explain how all those Bethesda bugs seem to get through testing.

 

[unbias]

You are letting their shady practices cloud your judgement over this case. What is dirty business tactics here? They were paying an employee (maybe more) to work on something and wanted to get compensated for it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2014/05/05/oculus-zenimax-rift/8716517/

"ZeniMax believes it is necessary to address these matters now and will take the necessary action to protect its interests," read a statement sent to the Journal.

Following the report, Carmack responded on Twitter to deny the claims. "Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax," he said.

Oculus says Carmack left ZeniMax last year to serve as the VR company's chief technology officer after his former employer prevented him from working on virtual reality projects. Oculus also says ZeniMax never identified stolen tech even though the full source code for Rift's development kit is available online.

 

[Fugu]

You are letting their shady practices cloud your judgement over this case. What is dirty business tactics here? They were paying an employee (maybe more) to work on something and wanted to get compensated for it. They ended up not giving away a product for free. We don't know how much money if any they were offered to release doom 3 but they obviously thought equity would give them more money in the long run.

They were paying Carmack to put Doom 3 on the OR and decided that, because he capitulated to OR, that their involvement in putting a game on a platform meant that they had a stake in OR. That they failed to get any money for the game that they didn't end up releasing anyway doesn't all of a sudden make them owed any restitution.

This whole thing is such convoluted bullshit anyway. Zenimax is going to lose this case and then they're going to run the Doom brand into the ground.

 

[Zaptruder]

They never got any form of contract when they decided to do all this? People don't do shit without contracts if they are expecting money. That is not how these things work.

The way I see it (I could be completely wrong); Carmack started working with the Oculus team and then Zenimax found out. They pretty much decided not to fight Carmack over it thinking that if anything became of it they would be able to make money off it. Carmack probably threw out the idea of Doom BFG to help the big wigs get over him working with Oculus. Everything was going to plan until Zenimax decided to decide on terms for Doom BFG... and "Carmacks" support. Oculus makes an offer that Zenimax does not like; they reject it (Don't know if they had other offers or just one); Oculus says screw Doom and decides to go on without it; Zenimax sues because they think they deserve money for the time and Carmack working with Oculus.

I think Zenimax screwed up; I could be completely wrong with the conjecture about these events but I think something along those lines (perhaps not in that exact order) occured.

TLDR: Don't go on business ventures without contracts; I want to reiterate the above may not be correct at all; I just seems logical.

IIRC, I believe Zenimax pulled Carmack off his 'free time projects' to redouble his efforts on the game stuff.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Time to ban yourself.

Looking at Zeni's track record, it looks like without Bethesda, they wouldn't be shit. Am I right?

They have Arkane and both Tango and Machine look to be pretty good. Also Zenimax was formed BY Bethesda to be a parent company, it's just a shell company.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

They were paying Carmack to put Doom 3 on the OR and decided that, because he capitulated to OR, that their involvement in putting a game on a platform meant that they had a stake in OR. That they failed to get any money for the game that they didn't end up releasing anyway doesn't all of a sudden make them owed any restitution.

We don't know what they are claiming OR has used that they believe they own. It might not be Doom 3 related.

I don't think anyone here thinks because they worked on a game, they deserved a stake in the company. Zenimax asked for a stake, got denied. Zenimax is claiming the work Carmack is using now was somewhat developed at Zenimax. They also claim they have a statement from the CEO that that might be the case. Luckily, they will have to actually produce proof.

 

[ScepticMatt]

They want equity?
http://a.pomf.se/inismw.webm
so good. I wonder how they justify that.

 

[Nokterian]

I guess Carmack is really regretting the Zenimax buyout now

The day it was announced i even was like..why carmack?

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

I guess it was nice of Zeni to wait until they had their own Lawyer Squad courtesy of Facebook. Maybe this is just some... Corporate hazing?

 

[Doc Holliday]

I refuse to believe that the facebook lawyers didn't look into this before giving thumbs up to a 2 billion dollar acquisition.

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

Its a company run by lawyers. Is anyone really surprised at the way they act?

 

[plagiarize]

I refuse to believe that the facebook lawyers didn't look into this before giving thumbs up to a 2 billion dollar acquisition.

with Facebook involved, odds are we'll never hear the real story of this, or who ends up coming out the winner.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

I don't know if you are including me here, but I very much was following the Oculus since its inception, and I'd never downplay Camack's contributions.

I just disagree in the strongest possible terms with the idea that a company "owns" whatever its employees decide to do in their spare time.

Depends on the contract. Sad but true.

I GUESS Zenimax has some legal ground here thus tries to sue OR now.

 

[Rembrandt]

So why exactly are people acting like Zenimax is on the wrong?

 

[plagiarize]

So why exactly are people acting like Zenimax is on the wrong?

because they are claiming that because John Carmack added VR support to Doom 3 in order to support the Oculus Rift peripheral that they therefore deserve stake in Oculus.

 

[unbias]

Depends on the contract. Sad but true.

I GUESS Zenimax has some legal ground here thus tries to sue OR now.

Only if what they are claiming is actually true. Carmak seems to think they are lying. I'm less inclined to believe Zenimax before Carmak giving both of their reputations a look.

So why exactly are people acting like Zenimax is on the wrong?

Seriously? Just because you decide to make software for a product in no way entitles you to a stake in said product, unless contractually obligated to do so.

 

[maniac-kun]

Didnt John Carmack say he will reveal the whole story why he parted with id at a later point?

 

[Totobeni]

I refuse to believe that the facebook lawyers didn't look into this before giving thumbs up to a 2 billion dollar acquisition.

Wasn't there is a story saying Zuckerberg signed the deal in just 3 days? maybe he didn't give his lawyers the time to look into everything.

 

[cuyahoga]

I guess Carmack is really regretting the Zenimax buyout now

For id? Rumor is that id ran out of money and was months away from closing. You might've had a 3D Realms redux situation there.

 

[DedValve]

Close enough : lawyers.

...there's a difference?

 

[unbias]

AFAIK, typically intellectual property created in the course of someone's employment and/or as a result of work paid for does belong to the employer unless otherwise explicitly and contractually specified .

Whether that's the case here is another matter.

It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

That actually works both ways. The contract has to state all intellectual property while under employment is part of said company for that to be a thing, however Zenimax is known for having that in their contract, so you may be correct. Regardless there would have to be proof that code was used on the rift that helped develop it.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Zenimax is rapidly becoming the new "company you love to hate" for 2014.

After ESO these guys have a lot to atone for.

 

[plagiarize]

That actually works both ways. The contract has to state all intellectual property while under employment is part of said company for that to be a thing, however Zenimax is known for having that in their contract, so you may be correct. Regardless there would have to be proof that code was used on the rift that helped develop it.

and we know that Oculus A: developed their own SDK and B: didn't use the same motion detection chip that Carmack worked on and developed their own custom silicon.

Zenimax would have to have evidence that Carmack worked on those things while working for them. Him detailing a certain technique, and Oculus writing their own version of it would only be an issue if Zenimax had patented that technique.

So long as John never sent them code, and didn't bring any with him to Oculus, they're in the clear as far as I understand it.

 

[GreatestHits]

They have Arkane and both Tango and Machine look to be pretty good. Also Zenimax was formed BY Bethesda to be a parent company, it's just a shell company.

They chose a bunch of lawyers from their own state to run them then is that right? Not really saying they're in the wrong on this issue, but speaking in reference to the past, is that why we have a company that's run like this?