Drama Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)

Saruhashi

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Scott Benson, keeps talking. On kickstarter today:

Alec died last weekend. We found out via twitter, which seems appropriate as that's how I first met Alec. We don't have any other info to share here about it.

I covered most things pretty thoroughly in our last update. There was no dramatic moment we were involved in after that. We just found out the next day that he was gone. The people near Alec tried very hard to keep him alive. Bethany and I weren't in Alec's immediate support group, and indeed when the allegations came out and I approached him about them he quickly disappeared. But others he was close to fought very hard, because they loved him. In the Alec was the only one who could make decisions for Alec.

As I discussed in the last update, my relationship with Alec was very complicated. My time with him was sometimes good, sometimes very hard, sometimes actively harmful. People ask me how I feel and what I feel is angry. Just angry. I'm angry at how last week went. I'm angry at what Alec did to others, and to me. I'm angry with how he handled it. I'm angry that we're left to clean up a mess he left behind. I'm angry we've had to deal with this in public, and that we've been made such a focus of this story. I'm angry with Alec. For a lot of reasons I'm angry with Alec. And I'm angry he's gone.

I wrote a very personal and very angry thing about my relationship with Alec, and about his abusive patterns that repeated in ways I never knew about until the past 10 days. It's something of a closer and more personal, unredacted version of some things I wrote last update. It also contains some secret history of NITW development that you never knew about, and how that fit into his patterns. It's not a particularly rosy image of Alec, but it's at least honest as far as my experience with him goes and that's the best I can do. It was painful to write. It's painful to link to. But you deserve to see it if you want to. I wrote it because I needed to get it out, and because I know several people who wanted to talk about their similar experiences with Alec but fear doing so in public. So I stepped up I guess. I also wrote it for people that may find themselves in this same situation, as I had been several times even before I met Alec.

Since his death I've talked to... geez, I don't know how many people about him. People who knew him 15 years ago, people who knew him 2 weeks ago, and everywhere in between. Many of us were surprised the things we experienced with him weren't unique to us, and had indeed started long before with others. Alec was doing the things he did going back a very, very long time. And I'm heartbroken about this. And I've talked to dozens of people who have experienced all these things with other people. There are so many of us.

Bethany and I aren't especially sentimental about death. I think just because we've both seen so much of it in our lives. Death and ruin, often in very sad ways. I don't have a lot of great examples in my life of people dying peacefully in their sleep. Suicides, car crashes, drug overdoes, accidents. From a young age, when the kid down the street drowned in the creek behind our neighborhood and I showed the rescue teams where they might find him. For a long time his mother wouldn't clean the window that held a single handprint he left behind. I remember slowly understanding what that meant at age 9. After a while you get a bit less sensitive to the shock is what I'm saying. I'm not at grief yet. Grief will come without warning some afternoon in 2 months when I'm installing baseboards in the house and I suddenly buckle and cry hard for an hour.

All this to say that Bethany and I don't tend to talk about dead friends and family as if they're still there with us, hurt by what we night reveal. We save that consideration for the family. I've wanted to be honest about Alec. And that honesty is sometimes harsh.

Alec struggled with his mental health. I was open about that, admirably. And some of the more difficult aspects of him can be attributed in some way to those things he struggled with. He also did harm to a good number of people, harm that doesn't need any mental health struggle to create it. He could also be really great. It depends on who you were and how/when you knew him. I'm certain many people remember Alec as a sweet and gentle guy. I know that many people remember Alec as a tormentor. Was Alec "good"? People are complicated. I don't know if I'm "good". What's "good"? Alec was loved by his family and many others. Those people are the ones left hurting now.

A lot of people have a hard time grasping that you can care about someone and also be angry at them for what they did to you and others. That you can be honest about what they did to you while still wanting them to be better. I'm angry as hell at Alec. I had a painful history with him, and a distant present. But losing him still hurts. Because he meant something. The pain is a sign it all meant something. To quote Mae, I want this to hurt. It's going to hurt for a while.

I won't be checking comments on this post anytime soon. I'm at a point right now where I can talk about it but not to where I can engage people about it. Just writing this stuff at all is hard, hard work right now, let alone fielding questions and comments. We'll be back and have more to say in our next update, when we have some distance on this.

Final thoughts: if you're in an abusive situation, whether at work or in a relationship, we stand with you. If you are wrestling with mental health issues, we also stand with you. We've certainly been there. We stand with you, for what that is worth. If you're having suicidal ideas, there are resources out there for you. People who will talk with you. No matter what you've done, no matter how hopeless it seems. A quick google will give you crisis hotlines and other resources available in your area. Don't hesitate if you need them. They literally exist to help you. Please stick around.

Thanks everyone. Here's to better days, and to life.

-scott
I just can't imagine ANY circumstances under which I would act this way after a death.

The whole point of it seems to be to keep insisting that "actually he was an asshole so if he was bullied into suicide by an internet hate mob then maybe it's not THAT bad".

That seems to be their defense of ZQ.
OK guys she did accuse this vulnerable guy and set her many thousands of followers upon him.
Buuuuut to be honest he was a bit of a bad person so is it REALLY that much of a big deal?

Come on, I know we spent years crying about GG and harassment campaigns and online bullying but now that WE'VE done it and someone is actually dead isn't it time to discuss whether or not some people just can't, or shouldn't, be saved?

What an absolute scumbag.
I guess he needed to make yet another statement because people are still saying "even if the was a complete asshole you can't just bully someone to suicide and act like you are the good guys in that scenario".

It occurs to me that these people might actually let ANYTHING slide rather than be seen as critical of certain "protected" individuals.

They are in too deep.
 
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Bitmap Frogs

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They're this century's puritans. They really need to go outside and live a bit.
Oh absolutely.

I've seen people on Era going on a rampage against someone because it turns out he had an affair. That is so out of character for the left, blaming and shaming people for their sexual life. Not to mention a lot of folks saying they won't play a game or watch a movie until it is approved by "qualified voices" as if they were waiting for the priest in the church to approve it.

Again as an old school eurosocialist this is baffling.
 

MagnesG

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He's unstable too. He needs helps instead of being led rambling nonsense. I really can't comprehend this dude since that long post of him.
 
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StormCell

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Same thing happened to me. There is no discourse allowed on resetera. I was as diplomatic and respectful as possible in expressing my view and still got banned. Fuck them. The group think over there is out of control. I’m here to stay.
Yeah, don't feel the least bit bad about getting banned there. They publicly labeled me as a victim blamer and supporter of abuse in my ban reason... because I shared an updated news article that stated both parties were arrested for assaulting one another. :messenger_expressionless:

Consider it an opportunity. For me, it was discovering that GAF is what I was really looking for when I signed up at Era. I love this site. It's better than it was when I was just a lurker years ago.
 

KiNeMz

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Yeah, don't feel the least bit bad about getting banned there. They publicly labeled me as a victim blamer and supporter of abuse in my ban reason... because I shared an updated news article that stated both parties were arrested for assaulting one another. :messenger_expressionless:

Consider it an opportunity. For me, it was discovering that GAF is what I was really looking for when I signed up at Era. I love this site. It's better than it was when I was just a lurker years ago.
Same. Has been what ive been searching for. And it was here all along, after the exodus.
 

StormCell

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I just can't imagine ANY circumstances under which I would act this way after a death.

The whole point of it seems to be to keep insisting that "actually he was an asshole so if he was bullied into suicide by an internet hate mob then maybe it's not THAT bad".

That seems to be their defense of ZQ.
OK guys she did accuse this vulnerable guy and set her many thousands of followers upon him.
Buuuuut to be honest he was a bit of a bad person so is it REALLY that much of a big deal?

Come on, I know we spent years crying about GG and harassment campaigns and online bullying but now that WE'VE done it and someone is actually dead isn't it time to discuss whether or not some people just can't, or shouldn't, be saved?

What an absolute scumbag.
I guess he needed to make yet another statement because people are still saying "even if the was a complete asshole you can't just bully someone to suicide and act like you are the good guys in that scenario".

It occurs to me that these people might actually let ANYTHING slide rather than be seen as critical of certain "protected" individuals.

They are in too deep.
I'll offer this: this is possibly what happens when two crazy people collide with one another. I just learned about Alec's death and read his post from 2016. It's still sinking in for me. I think a lot of the hypothesis about ZQ's character is really very plausible, and I also think she may have had the experience she described with Alec. Yep, I think she's capitalizing off of it but she isn't necessarily fabricating all of it.
 
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Barnabot

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I agree with this guy on the video. That needs a proper investigation. No one should take/lose their lives over a single tweet and the said allegation being sept under the rug after that.

If Zoe's allegation become truth via a criminal investigation, actually done by professionals not Twitter's experts, then that's the truth she exposed. If Zoe's allegations are proven false then she needs to face legal consequences. Being BPD or not.

Someone commited suicide because of everything whic happened after that tweet. Time for her to wear the big girl's pants.
 

HoldSteady

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Yeah, don't feel the least bit bad about getting banned there. They publicly labeled me as a victim blamer and supporter of abuse in my ban reason... because I shared an updated news article that stated both parties were arrested for assaulting one another. :messenger_expressionless:

Consider it an opportunity. For me, it was discovering that GAF is what I was really looking for when I signed up at Era. I love this site. It's better than it was when I was just a lurker years ago.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m really surprised. It’s changed quite a bit since I was a lurker ages ago. I like the vibe.
 

JoeDanny

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I couldn’t agree more. I’m really surprised. It’s changed quite a bit since I was a lurker ages ago. I like the vibe.
Is there a set of actual forum rules over there? Every ban I've seen has been for a new reason or rule that was seemingly made up on the spot.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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Is there a set of actual forum rules over there? Every ban I've seen has been for a new reason or rule that was seemingly made up on the spot.
There are "rules" in so far as it is a very general guideline of what to do, but ultimately they are whatever the mod feels like at the time.
 

Bitmap Frogs

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There are "rules" in so far as it is a very general guideline of what to do, but ultimately they are whatever the mod feels like at the time.
It's total rando.

I got perma after two years there without even accruing a warning in my account. Apparently I wasn't progressive enough and got wacked for wrongthink.
 

recursive

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Did you ever consider the possibility that he did not actually rape her, but that they had consensual sex and she afterwards blackmailed him? Both back then and now?
Someone who demands money never was a victim...
Yea that would be a prostitute.
 

Sleepy Buddha

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Of note, for a community that loves to focus on pronouns, he only uses 'I'. It's *all* about him. His feelings. His hurt. His anger.

Not a single one of them seems capable of entertaining the depths of despair that *he* must have felt.

They utterly lack the single thing they claim to possess - empathy.
Every time I see someone bitching about others "invalidating my experiences / life / existence / whatever" I get the distinct feeling that they are the ones unable to put themselves in someone else's shoes.
 
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Saruhashi

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I'll offer this: this is possibly what happens when two crazy people collide with one another. I just learned about Alec's death and read his post from 2016. It's still sinking in for me. I think a lot of the hypothesis about ZQ's character is really very plausible, and I also think she may have had the experience she described with Alec. Yep, I think she's capitalizing off of it but she isn't necessarily fabricating all of it.
I'd agree also that it may not be fabricated and I would still be inclined to believe her side of the story to some extent. Of course, I would put a massive asterisk on there to say that I have not heard both sides of the story and suspect that knowing both sides of the story would massively change the context.

The troubling thing for me is just the willingness of people to do anything, and ignore anything, it seems just to keep this narrative of "ZQ - The Victim" going.

Coming out and basically talking trash about a guy who had just taken his own life is bad form. It's especially bad if the only purpose for doing so is to protect the person who, in the very same week he killed himself, set an internet mob on the guy.

The thing that wrecks my head is that even if she is the absolute worst, and even if she really fucked up on this occasion, criticism of her doesn't suddenly mean that "GG did nothing wrong". It's possible to say that what happened to her in 2014 was unacceptable and also turn round and say but she really fucked up here and basically caused the very thing she always claimed to be against to happen to a guy.

Some of them just seem utterly consumed by this idea of "GamerGate" hiding behind everything and trying to pull the strings to destroy people but in reality it's one of their own who has ended up possibly destroying someone.

I don't know why there is such an inability for people to hold their hands up and say "right maybe we have f*cked up here so lets dial it back and lay everything out and then move on in a sensible manner".

OMG! GG are trying to hack everyone's account! Those goddamn gamergaters are the reason we have Trump right now!

Fucksakes.
 

MDSLKTR

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Scott Benson (NiTW co-creator) has more words to say about Alec. Make of it what you will. I don't think this has been posted here yet. And here's an archive in case of deletion or re-editing. I don't know about this. I can believe everything he's saying but I kind wish this could've waited a week until maybe, y'know, Alec Holowka actually got buried?
I think my body started producing estrogen from reading this. Like if theres a military draft tomorrow the western world is beyond fucked.
 

StormCell

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I think my body started producing estrogen from reading this. Like if theres a military draft tomorrow the western world is beyond fucked.
I don't understand this take, though. I finally read the entire post, which confirmed for me a lot of what I suspected about Alec, and thought it was a really candid look into Scott's working relationship with the guy. I still don't agree with the mob bullying triggered by Zoe Quinn, but this explains a lot of the context around the Alec story. Somehow this made you produce more estrogen, but I'd recommend you reduce the soy in your diet to resolve the issue.
 
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Tesseract

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i hate to break it to some people

we're all abusive (re: 'mental health'), man clinical psychology needs a major moon shot in this country
 
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CrustyBritches

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Night in the Woods will forever be Alec's baby, Scott. You were nothing before him, and you'll be nothing after him...

---
Oooh Chelsea you are sooo bad. Bet you're having a fucking heart attack right about now. :messenger_ghost:
 
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Clear

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I don't understand this take, though. I finally read the entire post, which confirmed for me a lot of what I suspected about Alec, and thought it was a really candid look into Scott's working relationship with the guy. I still don't agree with the mob bullying triggered by Zoe Quinn, but this explains a lot of the context around the Alec story. Somehow this made you produce more estrogen, but I'd recommend you reduce the soy in your diet to resolve the issue.
Go back and really read it.

Factor in timescale, geographic proximity, the means of communication between the parties, their respective relative skillsets and experience on the project, who his corroborating partners are and as such the degree of impartiality expected from their viewopoints.

Then, as if that's not enough to raise some doubts in your mind, examine the precise verbiage Benson has chosen, and question whether there may be other factors in play in their relationship. I'm talking neurosis, envy, egotism/narcissism, all the unappealing aspects of Scott Benson's character that this lengthy screed clearly show to be part of his mindset.

A statement analyst would have a field-day with this because its very evident that what is ostensibly being stated, and the subtext/underlying meaning and intention are very different.
 

Imtjnotu

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God the amount of sensitive ass people still complaining about this man.

No one wants to grow a pair. They just want to keep playing the victim card. Move the fuck on
 
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Chacranajxy

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Where does somebody find the time to write all that dreck? Maybe that's unfair - I didn't read past the first paragraph, but I definitely scrolled to the bottom of it and feel like I am probably not missing much.
 
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joe_zazen

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This is nothing like Nihilism. Nihilists would brand everyone involved as bad persons and liars, and wouldnt care much.

This is really Christian-like. There are people that are saints, pure, noble and untouchable. And then evil persons to demonize, turn into scapegoats and dispose of.

Indeed, its so cult-like its scary.
Except christianity is founded on forgiveness, love thy neighbor, turning the other cheek, & doing undo others.
 
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zenspider

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Well, link, source and screencap. Otherwise it sounds like some sensationalist BS you might have been taken in by.
Yeah, receipts please. That gay-pimping husband turn is just too crazy throw out there like "...well that's what I heard!"
 

zenspider

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I just can't imagine ANY circumstances under which I would act this way after a death.

The whole point of it seems to be to keep insisting that "actually he was an asshole so if he was bullied into suicide by an internet hate mob then maybe it's not THAT bad".

That seems to be their defense of ZQ.
OK guys she did accuse this vulnerable guy and set her many thousands of followers upon him.
Buuuuut to be honest he was a bit of a bad person so is it REALLY that much of a big deal?

Come on, I know we spent years crying about GG and harassment campaigns and online bullying but now that WE'VE done it and someone is actually dead isn't it time to discuss whether or not some people just can't, or shouldn't, be saved?

What an absolute scumbag.
I guess he needed to make yet another statement because people are still saying "even if the was a complete asshole you can't just bully someone to suicide and act like you are the good guys in that scenario".

It occurs to me that these people might actually let ANYTHING slide rather than be seen as critical of certain "protected" individuals.

They are in too deep.
Earlier this week I guess we weren't sure if the Alec's sister's post was real, but what you're describing seems to be this is the common tone.

People following this beyond the thread here, is that fair to say?
 

Zangiefy360

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Hey someone’s gotta jerk him off and we’ve all seen what happens to people who ask Zoe to do it.
Could you imagine being the dude asking Zoe to do ANYTHING sexual?

It'd be like a game of Russian roulette. Does she ruin your life immediately? Catalog it and use it against you a decade later? Use it as inspiration to kick start an indie game that never gets released? Jerk you off and enjoy it?

Too risky, man.
 

crowbrow

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Damn that is an insane read: -



I've encountered this Americacentric viewpoint before. It's kind of crazy how blinkered some people get. Case in point I was chatting to someone on Steam once and they asked how my day was and I innocently said 'Well it was a bit of a fag because...' and they went off on this long rant about what a disgusting homophobe I was and I was like 'Chill Winston, words mean different things in different countries' (Fag in the UK is slang for a cigarette or a tedious task, the latter being what I was referring to ) yet despite having been educated on the point, they couldn't concede that they'd jumped to an erroneous conclusion without pause for thought. It was kind of hilarious and sad at the same time.
Yeah is a new form of colonization, now all the world is supposed to be aware and careful of american sensitivities. Ironically is colonization coming from the left which are supposed to be the ones critical of such behaviors.
 
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"Ladies and Gentlemen"

We are the thing of shapes to come
Your freedom's not free and dumb
This Depression is Great
The Deformation Age, they know my name
Waltzing to scum and base and
Married to the pain
Bang we want it
Bang we want it
Bang bang bang bang bang
You came to see the MOBscene
I know it isn't your scene
It's better than a sex scene and it's
So fucking obscene, obscene yeah.
 

DeepEnigma

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Yeah is a new form of colonization, now all the world is supposed to be aware and careful of american sensitivities. Ironically is colonization coming from the left which are supposed to be the ones critical of such behaviors.
It’s not really “American sensitivities” since the UK, Canada, Australia, NZ, and a few other places are plagued with it as well, and in some cases worse (by their laws they passed).

It is an ideological attack on culture stemmed from a branch of a certain playbook.

But the gist of your point definitely stands.
 
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Sleepwalker

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It’s not really “American sensitivities” since the UK, Canada, Australia, NZ, and a few other places are plagued with it as well, and in some cases worse (by their laws they passed).

It is an ideological attack on culture stemmed from a branch of a certain playbook.

But the gist of your point definitely stands.
It does seem tied to the english speaking world though, the issue (afaik,could be wrong) is far from prominent in Europe and is definitely not mainstream in latin america.
 

DeepEnigma

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It does seem tied to the english speaking world though, the issue (afaik,could be wrong) is far from prominent in Europe and is definitely not mainstream in latin america.
I can agree with that. It’s going to be tough to push their gendered mental gymnastic division on a language with male/female pronouns so heavily infused.

But they have and will try.
 
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Speaking for Europe, well one of its nations anyway, here it does not fly like at all. A month or so ago in an 'alternative' show of an 'alternative' channel, a leftist commentary show of all things, where all commentators are from the (far) left side of politics (and people that work on political parties, journalism, art and entertainment) this so-called 'social justice' born of social media and the ressurection of the politically correct were being SLAUGHTERED.

When you were under fascism for a few decades, you dont accept no one telling you what to think nor the resurgence of censorship in any way, shape or form.

Book a flight, GAF...
 

Herr Edgy

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I can agree with that. It’s going to be tough to push their gendered mental gymnastic division on a language with male/female pronouns so heavily infused.

But they have and will try.
It's been on its way in Germany for a while now. While pronouns aren't getting changed, words referring to a group of ungendered X, that were commonly referred to with the pluralistic male form of a word, are getting streamlined.

"Der Student" - "Die Studentin" (male and female singular)
"Die Studenten" - "Die Studentinnen" (male and female plural)

"Die Studenten" and the concept behind was used for ages for a group of of people, no matter if male or female, unless it was strictly female.
Now, they use the equivalent of "the studying ones" - "Die Studierenden" in official postings. The general public generally hasn't adopted this yet but it's only a matter of time.
 
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Nydus

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It's been on its way in Germany for a while now. While pronouns aren't getting changed, words referring to a group of ungendered X, that were commonly referred to with the pluralistic male form of a word, are getting streamlined.

"Der Student" - "Die Studentin" (male and female singular)
"Die Studenten" - "Die Studentinnen" (male and female plural)

"Die Studenten" and the concept behind was used for ages for a group of of people, no matter if male or female, unless it was strictly female.
Now, they use the equivalent of "the studying ones" - "Die Studierenden" in official postings. The general public generally hasn't adopted this yet but it's only a matter of time.
That's just for gender equality and to simplify things. Language changes over time to reflect society. Woman's weren't allowed to study for a long ass time. Now they are allowed, no even encouraged to do so. And students in particular are very sensitive to how they are viewed. So that's fine for me.

You want an example the other way around? I work in a traditional female dominated sector and when our work place was renovated they assigned me 1 (!) toilette, because I'm just one men. (This decision was made by other men) Trough some luck and selection in the hiring process to up the quota we are now 10 men (half of the workforce). So 1 bowl for 10 guys just because men "usually" don't work here . Fun times! :p
 

Bitmap Frogs

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It's been on its way in Germany for a while now. While pronouns aren't getting changed, words referring to a group of ungendered X, that were commonly referred to with the pluralistic male form of a word, are getting streamlined.

"Der Student" - "Die Studentin" (male and female singular)
"Die Studenten" - "Die Studentinnen" (male and female plural)

"Die Studenten" and the concept behind was used for ages for a group of of people, no matter if male or female, unless it was strictly female.
Now, they use the equivalent of "the studying ones" - "Die Studierenden" in official postings. The general public generally hasn't adopted this yet but it's only a matter of time.
Spanish is in the same boat (except student doesn't have gendered forms lol).

El conductor - La conductora (the driver M,S - the driver F,S)
Los conductores - Las conductoras (the driver M,P - the driver F,P)

So far, things that have been used:

Los y las conductor@s (for M+F P, replacing the vowel with @ to create a single M+F form, this one is quickly going out of fashion)
Los conductores y las conductoras (M P and F P, language purist heavily criticise this one as excesively verbiose)
Los que conducen (generic "those who drive")
Las conductoras (F P, the spanish alt-ish left likes to use the F P as the pluralistic form)
 
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Of note, for a community that loves to focus on pronouns, he only uses 'I'. It's *all* about him. His feelings. His hurt. His anger.

Not a single one of them seems capable of entertaining the depths of despair that *he* must have felt.

They utterly lack the single thing they claim to possess - empathy.
They lack not just empathy, these people lack humanity.

They're not fucking human beings, that's all there is to it.