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[nib95]

Probably something that most of you already feared or guessed, but it's pretty disgusting to see it potentially confirmed. I'm sure those who have played it much have experienced completely dramatic results galore, consistent unusually lucky rises from zero to richdom, followed by stupendous bad luck to being poor. It's an all too common slingshot affair.

A former Zynga dev has now confirmed that Zynga Poker is indeed rigged. In the exact ways many had predicted all along.

http://winzyngapoker.wordpress.com/...er-officially-confirms-zynga-poker-is-rigged/

Some choice posts.

yeah....the poker thing is kinda of devious.
They shuffle the deck for hundreds of millions of people. Expect stupid results.

so theres millions of people playing poker.
An instance of a poker table takes up a significant amount of data. shuffling the deck for millions of poker tables would rape the server.
Instead, have "pre packaged" scenarios... roll them and randomize which scenario comes us. Cheaper.
Can also "construct" scenarios, to add some "drama"

that shit, with skewed decks, happens too often.
Because they shuffle the deck for millions of people.

[–]What does "shuffle the deck for millions of people" mean? Are you trying to say they do stack the deck to generate more exciting scenarios?

Precisely.

[–]Do you know this for a fact? Because that's very fucked up if true.

Fact. (though I did not have full access to the server code, this is just from observation, and my knowledge as a coder)

Those decks are pre-packaged, and they randomize the packages for each poker table. You WILL see "dramatic odds", often, when the server hiccups.

See link for more.

So yea, pretty disgraceful antics if you ask me. It's not really free online poker at all, it's Zynga Roulette, designed to keep players coming back or buying chips with real money. Zynga can't even get honest poker right. With policies and features like these in their games, It's no wonder this company is failing horribly.

Can you still keep increasing your chip count if you play it right? Of course, but the odds are going to be unusually stacked either for, or against you, in pre-determined fashion. And that just isn't right.


---------------


So all this begs the questions...

1. ) Are other Zynga games also rigged in a similar way?

All their other online or mobile games, Farmville etc, are they also rigged in a similar way to keep people from going zero to hero and back again, for dramatic effect or to lure people in to spending actual money? Or is this exclusive to Zynga poker?


2. )What are other top free online Poker playing alternatives, including one's available on mobile platforms?

Admittedly, I'm not sure what the better/best alternatives are. Perhaps some of you could advise me? I play mostly on my mobile phone (Android) in my spare time, on breaks etc, never for real money. Are their any mobile friendly alternatives?


Cheers.

 

[Drkirby]

The funny thing is, it sounds like its rigged just to save on server resources more so then to directly earn them extra profits.

 

[Stet]

Why does an instance of a poker table cost so much from a back-end perspective? That shit should fit in less than 100 bytes.

 

[MormaPope]

Zynga better at taking money away from the player than real casinos confirmed.

 

[nib95]

The funny thing is, it sounds like its rigged just to save on server resources more so then to directly earn them extra profits.

Probably a bit of both is my guess. Pretty silly though, especially given the stupendous amount of unnecessary clutter and advertising they throw in your face, at least on the Facebook PC/Mac version. It's a sham. It's annoying because the mobile version is really quite good, nice UI and layout, quick, easy to use, lots of people playing it etc. Just such a shame it's such a rigged affair.

Need to find a decent alternative.

 

[railGUN]

I use PokerStars.net client on my Mac, and their iOS version on my iPad.

 

[Jackpot]

But I can randomise the order of 52 elements a million times in a second in code.

 

[nib95]

Why does an instance of a poker table cost so much from a back-end perspective? That shit should fit in less than 100 bytes.

I think over 6 million people play Zynga Poker daily, and that's on the Facebook version alone. Around 15+ million unique users a week. That number could have risen by now, but no idea how that correlates in to server costs.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Why does an instance of a poker table cost so much from a back-end perspective? That shit should fit in less than 100 bytes.

It really isn't hard. Assign a random number to each card between 1 and 1000. Sort the deck based on that number. Doing this millions of times on a server is absolutely zero problem. Keep in mind that you don't have to do this millions of times per second or anything. Once sorted, the deck obviously lasts the entire game. This would also be easy to store in a database for later retrieval. As you say, too, game state could be stored in less than 100 bytes without even trying.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

But I can randomise the order of 52 elements a million times in a second in code.

Yeah, I don't get this. Does this anonymous source mean that it's using a seeded RNG, so the results aren't truly random? Because that's not exactly uncommon.

 

[Yaboosh]

Sounds like he is just guessing.

 

[McHuj]

But I can randomise the order of 52 elements a million times in a second in code.

My guess its not the deal, but the perhaps it's an issue of network management and allowing millions of people to pull out unique elements from a common shared data set in a timely fashion.

 

[arts&crafts]

Is Zynga real money games like pokerstars? I am guessing not in which case this is pointless for them and stupid.

 

[Rapstah]

It really isn't hard. Assign a random number to each card between 1 and 1000. Sort the deck based on that number. Doing this millions of times on a server is absolutely zero problem. Keep in mind that you don't have to do this millions of times per second or anything. Once sorted, the deck obviously lasts the entire game. This would also be easy to store in a database for later retrieval. As you say, too, game state could be stored in less than 100 bytes without even trying.

This leads to someone thinking "we could just store all the combinations on the server and retrieve a random set instead", finding out that there's 80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883277824000000000000 combinations and that it's pretty hard to generate a random number between 0 and 80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883277824000000000000.

Where they go at this point could depend. Either they generate really large selection of completely random sorts that fits in 32 bytes (16 if adventurous) and no one ever notices, or they go all the way and generate way fewer with a couple of cool premades in there. Based on what the dude is saying, this could be both. Seems he's only sure that the client was recieving premade sorts from somewhere.

 

[Bulbagarden]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this just mean that their game is rigged in effectively the same way that poker/slot machines are rigged by bricks & mortar casinos? Depending on where they're operated, a lot of those things have to comply with legislated minimum pay-out levels

 

[nib95]

Sounds like he is just guessing.

If you'd played it a lot, I doubt you'd think that.

Is Zynga real money games like pokerstars? I am guessing not in which case this is pointless for them and stupid.

It's free but you can pay real money to buy chips to either buy back in (if you've lost all your free chips) or play in the bigger tables.

 

[2 Slice Toaster]

Someone posting anonymously on Reddit hardly seems to constitute confirmation of anything.

 

[notworksafe]

So all this begs the questions...

No it doesn't. It raises the questions.

 

[basik]

try dragonplay poker on fb or android. it looks nice and doesnt have as much spammy ad bullshit as zyngas. I dunno how it is on ios but I assume it has crossplay with android/fb.

 

[TouchMyBox]

It's free but you can pay real money to buy chips to either buy back in (if you've lost all your free chips) or play in the bigger tables.

Does that mean no?

It would be pretty silly to complain about something being rigged if there are no real-money payouts.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Just don't play Zynga anything. Of course they are rigged. They have plenty of games where they want you to have 3-4000 items and they sell one item for $3. You can loot it all or you can just buy it. And when it becomes outdated, there is nothing to do but buy more or loot more. I got off the mafia wars train 6 months ago and I'm better off for it.

All of there games are meant to take your money. The sooner you realise it, the better. There is no monetary win in this for you, the consumer.

Does that mean no?

It would be pretty silly to complain about something being rigged if there are no real-money payouts.

Yes, there is no monetary payouts. Like all games, the money only flows to Zynga, not the other way around. But for 20 zynga bucks, you can now buy your own tag here on GAF*.




*tag only valid with gaf gold and better tags are available in about a month...that you can pay for.

 

[Rubius]

Well dont forget guys that there is not an infinite amount of possible order in a deck of card.
There is 52 cards, so they could simply make a copy of each possible deck and then give it to a table randomly. Wouldnt that be easier?

 

[fenners]

Well dont forget guys that there is not an infinite amount of possible order in a deck of card.
There is 52 cards, so they could simply make a copy of each possible deck and then give it to a table randomly. Wouldnt that be easier?

Correct, there isn't an infinite numer of permutations; there's 52!, i.e. 52*51*50*...*1. That's a *large* number.

 

[jman2050]

The hell? Server overload?

True randomization algorithms shouldn't be anywhere near intensive enough to cause those sorts of problems, to my knowledge anyway.

Well dont forget guys that there is not an infinite amount of possible order in a deck of card.
There is 52 cards, so they could simply make a copy of each possible deck and then give it to a table randomly. Wouldnt that be easier?

Calculate 52! and then come back to me. I certainly think it would be ideal to randomize deck arrangements in that fashion, if it weren't currently impossible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this just mean that their game is rigged in effectively the same way that poker/slot machines are rigged by bricks & mortar casinos? Depending on where they're operated, a lot of those things have to comply with legislated minimum pay-out levels

I don't know about slot machines, but physically shuffling cards properly is sufficiently random enough that it is never an issue.

 

[legacyzero]

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars have fake money clients you can play on. Additionally, they require no money to get extra play chips since both those clients run real money games (which are closed to US citizens).

They also offer games other than Texas Hold'Em. I'm a big Pot Limit Omaha and Razz guy on Stars.

 

[Sage00]

I wonder, what are the odds that this 'Ex-Zynga dev' is..

A) A disgruntled, fired employee
B) Employed by a rival online poker company
C) Both

 

[Rubius]

Calculate 52! and then come back to me. I certainly think it would be ideal to randomize deck arrangements in that fashion, if it weren't currently impossible.

For some reason I still think that computer are able to store this amount of data . One day. One day.
Its only 806581751709438785716606368564040000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 possibilities! I did know it was an insane number, but I always think that they can calculate this, but the problem is that even if you store each combinaison on a byte, then the amount of storage needed would be more than will be possible or needed for anytime in the next 10000 years.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Honestly this sounds exactly like the conspiracy losers from real money poker. You get screwed over by variance? OMG it must be rigged!!!!!111

Every time the online poker is rigged thing rears its head its been proven to be fake bullshit.

 

[antitrop]

Honestly this sounds exactly like the conspiracy losers from real money poker. You get screwed over by variance? OMG it must be rigged!!!!!111

Every time the online poker is rigged thing rears its head its been proven to be fake bullshit.

Ya, but this is Zynga we're talking about.

 

[nib95]

Honestly this sounds exactly like the conspiracy losers from real money poker. You get screwed over by variance? OMG it must be rigged!!!!!111

Every time the online poker is rigged thing rears its head its been proven to be fake bullshit.

I've played a few others and play real poker routinely. Stuff that happens in Zynga is beyond anything else. It's patterns that nearly always come to pass. Number of times I've seen people who have a small amount of everything they own on the table (no money left for buy in) go all in pre flop and win on crazy odds/cards is more than I could even count. The outcome is about 90% predictable, ie that person will always win, unless it's the second or third time they've gone all in on weak cards.

 

[jman2050]

I've played a few others and play real poker routinely. Stuff that happens in Zynga is beyond anything else. It's patterns that nearly always come to pass. Number of times I've seen people who have a small amount of everything they own on the table (no money left for buy in) go all in pre flop and win on crazy odds/cards is more than I could even count. The outcome is about 90% predictable, ie that person will always win, unless it's the second or third time they've gone all in on weak cards.

To be fair, it's way way too easy to be influenced by confirmation bias when trying to make assertions like these.

We can't know for sure without looking at the code.

 

[nib95]

To be fair, it's way way too easy to be influenced by confirmation bias when trying to make assertions like these.

We can't know for sure without looking at the code.

Not really. You can keep a tally of what I'm talking about yourself and come to the conclusion based on the analysis. Just try it yourself.

 

[Ketch]

I think I remember seeing a news special on this sort of thing a long time ago (maybe some CBS thing). Where a bunch of people were playing poker online for real money, which is illegal I guess... and then the operators of the game were cheating people to win their money, and the players couldn't complain to anyone because it's unregulated and illegal anyway.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

While technically possible, this sounds very hard to actually verify.

 

[SirPenguin]

I feel like this has to violate some sort of law given how closely gambling games and odds are regulated

 

[KittenMaster]

Wait, so is actual money involved? Zynga + gambling is a hugely terrifying concept.

 

[nib95]

Wait, so, is actual money involved? Zynga + gambling is a hugely terrifying concept.

Right now only to buy chips, in future, full on I believe. Which is more reason why these things need to be dealt with and regulations put in place.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I feel like this has to violate some sort of law given how closely gambling games and odds are regulated

Pokerstars and such have an overseeing body that checks the rng I believe.

 

[Mesoian]

The funny thing is, it sounds like its rigged just to save on server resources more so then to directly earn them extra profits.

This.

Happy coinkidink on their end until they got caught, but yeah. sometimes illicit deeds don't have the most illicit motives.

 

[BowieZ]

I've amassed over 250 million chips at Zynga Poker.

It is NOT rigged! lol

 

[Tmdean]

I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. Zynga is the king of AB tested game design, where they carefully test every element to maximize the time and money that people spend in their games.

The technical explanation is pure bullshit, of course, but judging on the quality of their engineering it wouldn't be a shock if they had some developers that are really that clueless.

 

[Tmdean]

I've amassed over 250 million chips at Zynga Poker.

It is NOT rigged! lol

You do realize that any rigging would be tweaking the outcomes to manipulate you into playing more, right? Zynga has nothing to gain by rigging the game to make you lose.

 

[SapientWolf]

Right now only to buy chips, in future, full on I believe. Which is more reason why these things need to be dealt with and regulations put in place.

Real money will only be an option outside the US, unless there's some loophole. But at this point they can rig the games all they want.

If the dealer is server side and there are 38 million players then I can see why they would do something like this. But I'm sure they couldn't resist putting in some psychological hooks into the game while they were at it.

 

[DeuceGamer]

I think I remember seeing a news special on this sort of thing a long time ago (maybe some CBS thing). Where a bunch of people were playing poker online for real money, which is illegal I guess... and then the operators of the game were cheating people to win their money, and the players couldn't complain to anyone because it's unregulated and illegal anyway.

You likely saw a report on Absolute and Ultimate Bet Poker. There is a ton of evidence that there were multiple Super User's that were capable of viewing other players hole cards. The were eventually found out by the hand histories and other evidence that was gathered. There was a report on this on a few news sites.

 

[Fewr]

The funny thing is, it sounds like its rigged just to save on server resources more so then to directly earn them extra profits.

Not investing on server resources means extra profits too (or less losses if it's their case).

 

[Stumpokapow]

Correct, there isn't an infinite numer of permutations; there's 52!, i.e. 52*51*50*...*1. That's a *large* number.

With some forms of poker, like hold em, it's not 52! It's 52 choose 2n+5 for n players. still enormous, but much less so.

 

[K.Jack]

As someone who plays online poker for real money, daily, I hate reading stuff like this.

Fortunately I play on sites with regulated RNGs. I think.

 

[whatsinaname]

No it doesn't. It raises the questions.

You cannot fight it, let it go. The meaning of that phrase has changed.

 

[tsumineko]

lol, so generate the deck on one of the player's PCs and send it over the interwabs to all the players. What a load of bull.