drugstore_cowboy
Member
Pedals are compatible, the old TH8 RS shifter isn't and is being discontinued for the new TH8A which will work on any current platform iirc.
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NextGen Wheels peripherals PS4 and Xbox One Thread: NeoGaf Wheel Club Updates in OP
- Thread starter amar212
- Start date
Are you 100% sure on this? Because if yes, I'm buying it right now.
Talking about these one to be exact
drugstore_cowboy
Member
I've read they work and have some here I could test to be 100% but there's a lot of people using them. I don't know if a firmware update could kill compatibility in the future though.
Check out Inside Sim Racing's Thrustmaster forum, there's some users on there.
Check out Inside Sim Racing's Thrustmaster forum, there's some users on there.
Thanks a lot! Yeah, I've read a lot of reports of people using them on the TX on ISR now. Though that firmware talk scares me a bit.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
I can't see T500 pedals eating into sales of the new pedals and being a problem, tbh I don't know it's possible to break compatibility but as they aren't officially compatible you never know.
LicenceToK1ll
Member
https://twitter.com/LogitechG/statuses/496042493155094528
This been posted yet?
What sort of chip are they talking about ? First i have heard of it
hellmonkey
Member
I wonder if the DFGT has the same thing. I bought it for GT5 and would really like to be able to use it on my ps4. 
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
So, what's the limited functionality without the chip - no force feedback? I'd take that than no support at all.
Fuck Sony!
Fuck Sony!
drugstore_cowboy
Member
What about the T500, does that have a chip then?
I thought it was to be supported.
I thought it was to be supported.
panda-zebra
Member
Something doesn't smell right.
gutterboy44
Member
This is such a disaster. No straight answers, all double speak "politician talk". I can't wait for Driveclub to come out just so that it might put a little bit of a spot light on this ridiculous bullshit going on with current gen.
Ugh
Ugh
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
Sell your Logitech and Fanatec wheels because the dream is dead! There's no PS4 support because of Thrustmaster and their agreement with Sony - it gives them a wheel monopoly on the system.
Sell now and save up for the next gen Gran Turismo wheel releasing next year.
Sell now and save up for the next gen Gran Turismo wheel releasing next year.
brotkasten
Member
Well, that means no GT7 for me. Fucking hell. I don't want to be limited to pure sims like AC or PC. I need my huge car roaster of road cars.
Darryl M R
Member
Can I get a simple answer, what wheel should I buy for my PS4 if I do not currently have one and want to play DriveClub?
drugstore_cowboy
Member
T300 RS works. I'm unsure about the T500 now which is a bitch because I only just bought one.
drotahorror
Member
Ridiculous that we're less than 2 months before launch of DriveClub and know very little about the Wheel situation for the PS4.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
OP shows T500 confirmed as supported by a Driveclub dev. We've known about this for quite some time.
bananafactory
Banned
So does this mean G27 is definitely a no go for PS4? I bought mine specifically for Driveclub but I'm waiting for them to completely rule it out before I sell it.
gutterboy44
Member
So, if this G27 security chip shit is real, the only mild chance I have of playing GT7 on PS4 is if Microcenter drops the crazy cheap T500 bomb again and I snag one.
This really bothers me. I am second guessing my Destiny, White PS4 pre order based on this news. I figure I wanted a PS4 sooner or later, but having zero wheel support really puts a damper on that.
This really bothers me. I am second guessing my Destiny, White PS4 pre order based on this news. I figure I wanted a PS4 sooner or later, but having zero wheel support really puts a damper on that.
Agree with you : PR excuse.
IMHO : G27 owners should blame Immersion Technology for their re-licensing fees. Logitech would have to acquire them again for PS4 to adapt/create drivers but as they stopped their gaming wheels business, they have no interest in doing so.
I'm pretty sure the security chip is crap.
How could the T500RS work with the PS4 if it was true?
And why would Sony require a security chip when all they probably have to do to unlock USB HID devices is to add some vendor:id pairs to a whitelist?
Doesn't make sense...
well, if you didnt know, special chips dont just grow on trees my friend!
they grow inside t500rs's
drugstore_cowboy
Member
I've heard the T500's force feedback feels different/better than the Logitechs and Fanatec's in GT5 and GT6 (and not just strength) but never tested it to confirm. Unless it's BS maybe there is some PlayStation specific shit in there.
It does indeed feel different. There are more effects (kurbs are stronger, etc). There is also less of the center wobble you get with Logitech and Fanatec wheels. I think it has more to do with how the T500RS works vs different FFB programming.
https://twitter.com/LogitechG/statuses/496042493155094528
This been posted yet?
What sort of chip are they talking about ? First i have heard of it
I am almost 100% confident how there is no security chip that prevents them at all. Chip may exist - as FyreWulf has confirmed in the other thread - but it is not the main culprit:
It is licensing.
I agree 100%, nothing smells right.
It feels different than Logitech 100% because it uses its own SDK, developed together with Polyphony Digital for GT specifically, but primarily because of the belt-drive. You simply can't compare gear-driven FFB with belt-drive - sensation is completely different.
I had both T500RS and Fanatec CSW for instance - both with belt-drives - and the sensation is pretty similar once you adjust all preferences on the Fanatec. The key difference among them is how T500RS uses the spring more aggressively, thus resulting with faster countersteer. In the other hand, CSW have better FFB and overall sensation is less sterile (as long as your motors survive, but that is another story).
Exactly. My subjective breakdown below.
This is the most important question. And the answer is NO.
It was last week when we all finally learned what it seems to be the most crucial information regarding PS4 architecture and USB-access. In the thread "Why did Sony go backwards on USB/hid compatibility?!" it was Androwsky who shared the final piece of the puzzle:
So, on the PS4, the USB/HID compatibility is 100% supported, but it has been moved from the first onto the second layer API. So, basically, every device has to be authenticated by the OS and granted the USB/HID access.
I am absolutely certain it was done because of the piracy (infamous PS3 USB dongles), but it also gave Sony something similar - thus not the same - as Microsoft is doing for the past 3 generation of Xbox consoles - and that is direct control over USB slave-devices.
In addition, here is the quote from the CTlance form the same thread:
Now, to continue.
Xbox consoles are the one that also have security chip. It is called "Infineon Chip" and it is part of the every single Xbox-compatible device, from the foist Xbox, Xbox360 and XboxOne. For instance, all Fanatec Xbox360 compatible wheels - PWTS, GT2, CSR, CSRE - have it soldered on their motherboards. Without "Infineon Chip" no hardware is recognized by the Xbox.
I will quote MrBasher from the GTPlanet for this - he is the guy who is basically producing majority of cross-compatibility wheel/pedals equipment and he is 100% reliable source:
mrbasher said:
Logitech have the experience and knowledge about the "chip" however, they were licensing the Driving FX X360 wheel for the short period of time, but they stopped the further developments in the early 2008. I still have many quotes from the official Logitech forum from that time, but they are not so relevant for this discussion. However, you can find more info about that here, in this 2009 topic.
And as I said before, I see why they could go that far to make that claim. But before that, few more things.
If the "chip" was real and behaving as "gate keeper", there is no way on Earth that T500RS could be supported - but it not just T500RS in the picture. As we learned a month ago from the officially published list of supported wheels for the PS4 for the pCARS, there are two more "older/legacy" wheels then upcoming new T300RS - which is the only wheel that could have "security chip", if the one ever existed:
T80 - which is not a force feedback wheels, it basically emulated controller, and
T100 - which is a proper force feedback wheel
But it is actually a T100 where it really gets interesting today.
Why?
Because T100 is different than all other Thrustmaster wheels. And what is different? Well, its own API/SDK. Which is not Thrustmaster's HEART, but the one that is licensed by the infamous Immersion Company, called TouchSense, and used by all Logitech wheels in the past decade.
So, if Thrustmaster's own PR people were wrong and they simply let SMS to publish such list without noticing their own mistake, we can pretty much conclude how PS4 will actually support a TouchSense powered FFB wheel - as long as it is Thrustmasters'.
Nifty, yes?
So, finally to make my comment.
There are only 2 possible explanations for such PR move by Logitech.
First possible explanation:
They do not want to become the party that will suffer the negativity once the information about non-compatibility of Logitech devices on the PS4 start to enter the mainstream channels. This is simply a spin in order to "wash hands", but in the same time to save the Immersion Corporation - which is still a Logitech's partner - from the same negativity. By doing this "chip talk" they want to divert everything at Sony, because they do not see the logic in paying additional royalties to both Immersion and Sony to have their old (legacy) wheels supported on the new platform (we learned from the legendary 2005-2007 case how Immersion grants its patents on the platform-base - PS4 is a new "platform/console", so no automatically transfer of licenses apply).
To quote paragraph 1.7. from the "settlement":
And most important, paragraphs that describes the validity of the settlement:
Key words - "does not include PSP, PS1, PS3 or PS2 or any other gaming platform".
PS4 was not part of the 2007 "settlement", which was never described by settlement by either Sony or Immersion, because it would violate the terms of the prior settlement between Microsoft and Immersion, but that is another story (although not less interesting).
Second possible explanation:
Logitech is indeed making its new wheel, despite all official news.
We heard about it here on NeoGaf but there was not new info. However, if that one is true, making such "security chip" comment has all the sense in the world. Why? Because you have to explain somehow to the legacy-users army why your new wheel works with the PS4, but old ones does not. And from the previous experience - as well as from the aforementioned fact how Logitech is still an Immersion Corporation technological partner - it can be presumed how new wheel would probably continue to use TouchSense as its API/SDK.
It all makes too much sense.
Of course, time will tell, but all above are the reasons why I personally think how "security chip" reasoning is 100% hoax.
Everything we learned in past months - most notably from pCARS PS4 wheel-list and information about moving USB/HID at the second layer in PS4 - points that even Sony was no so transparent about the complete issue because they said how support relies on developer...
From the official PS4 FAQ:
..while it is clearly in the hands of Sony to enable/disable particular device support on their console.
And it also gives full logical afterthought on comment from Thomas from Fanatec when I was discussing this very situation on GTPlanet few weeks ago, before I learned new details:
To conclude, I can today almost completely understand why Sony does not want to magically enable all legacy wheels, from many reasons.
First, they have new hardware partner - Thrustmaster - who probably paid reasonable sum of money to be the Official hardware partner of SCE.
Second, they have no intention to pay additional amount of money to Immersion company to enable compatibility for the legacy devices - because they would be forced to pay vast amount of money - simply because the 2007 settlement says the following for the very devices:
..and games..
And we learned from 2008 counter-suit of Microsoft against Immersion over Sony agreement (settlement) how Sony would need to pay "... another $10 million, plus a royalty of 25 cents for each game sold".
Now compute.
Major congratulations to all of those who read all this.
I'm calling BS as well. Can't you use HID keyboards and such on the PS4?
I should note I'm not a PS4 (or PS3) dev, and am extrapolating a bit based on what I've read from the Skullgirls devs, my own meager experience doing driver development on linux (video, not HID), and the fact that stuff seems to work in War Thunder.
soundscream
Member
amar212 I think the T100 is a typo because if you go to http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_US/products/categories/racing-wheels&tid=510
It shows only PS3/PC
On there site and all other press releases they say its only the T80/T500 and the upcoming T300
It shows only PS3/PC
On there site and all other press releases they say its only the T80/T500 and the upcoming T300
reptilescorpio
Member
Awesome write up amar! Feel much more informed on the background now.
For me it's quite the opposite, but from what I understand (I'm not really a programmer) you're quite right even though I'm still not absolutely sure on how Gaijin made it work and how the Cert process went. It seems like there's a lot of work to do make the support work and each device will need to unique handling. That means that controllers like generic Flight Sticks and Arcade Sticks should be possible to implement (but not easy and nor is it confirmed that it will automatically pass Cert), but due to licensing, legal and FFB issues developers themselves will not be able to make wheels support by themselves.
I don't think there's any locking of devices though, but there are some exceptions to what devices you can control (and possibly how you can control them) so there could be some truth to the security chip, but I can't really comment on that as it goes way above my expertise.
Also, I have no idea where the 8 minute authorization comes from. Fyrewulff, do you have any source for that or can you PM where to find that info?
Holy shit, that post from amar was nothing short of epic! Thanks for putting everything into such a detailed post. Perhaps it needs to be linked to via the OP.
From what amar has posted there, I'm going to have a guess at what will happen come the time Driveclub is released: The game will support it, but it'll be completely unadvertised. Keeps Thrustmaster happy (I guess) and keeps gamers who are enthusiastic enough to test their legacy peripherals happy. Plus it kinda doesn't lock Logitech from sales on a new wheel, as long as it's not commercially publicised that something like the G27 would work.
This is all very, VERY interesting!
From what amar has posted there, I'm going to have a guess at what will happen come the time Driveclub is released: The game will support it, but it'll be completely unadvertised. Keeps Thrustmaster happy (I guess) and keeps gamers who are enthusiastic enough to test their legacy peripherals happy. Plus it kinda doesn't lock Logitech from sales on a new wheel, as long as it's not commercially publicised that something like the G27 would work.
This is all very, VERY interesting!
adamantypants
Member
amar212
Not a shill
(Today, 04:08 PM)
Bravo man. I feel like my IQ shot up just reading that.
Not a shill
(Today, 04:08 PM)
Bravo man. I feel like my IQ shot up just reading that.
Yep knew there was something fishy going on when they did not say Logitech wheels were going to be supported. Would not have been hard for them something but they deliberately decided not to.
I guess I will just play driveclub with a controller
and go ahead and buy a Driving Force GT to play on the PC and PS3
Thanks Amar for that awesome post.
Absolutely not true, it's not a simple matter of not implementing support for wheels, but a matter that involves manufacturers, licenses, security and contracts. Individual developers really are not at fault here.
So after I learned about that comment by Thomas:
does this mean it is too early to give up hope for native fanatec wheel support for GT7 on PS4? Currently the fanatec wheels seem to emulate the G27 for PS3 compatibility. I don't know how THAT is supposed to work with the licencing model of Immersion...
does this mean it is too early to give up hope for native fanatec wheel support for GT7 on PS4? Currently the fanatec wheels seem to emulate the G27 for PS3 compatibility. I don't know how THAT is supposed to work with the licencing model of Immersion...
brotkasten
Member
This is really heartbreaking. I really don't want to give up on GT7, but I can't play it with a controller either. Driveclub might be possible, as it's more arcadey, but GT doesn't feel right to me with a controller.
I didn't say it was anyone's fault or blaming anyone.
But the fact that a lot of the information in Amar's post points to exclusivity for thrustmaster makes it a lot clearer why Logitech and Evolution and other devs haven't said anything about legacy wheel support. That's what I meant by something fishy going on.
AbandonedTrolley
Member
Great post Amar
What is also strange is that the Logitech DFGT was a licensed wheel, but obviously not in the list of wheels that are compatible. So it's almost certainly to do with Thrustmaster now being the official supplier to SCE, hopefully as you say, it's possible to do, but just not publicized in advertising.
What is also strange is that the Logitech DFGT was a licensed wheel, but obviously not in the list of wheels that are compatible. So it's almost certainly to do with Thrustmaster now being the official supplier to SCE, hopefully as you say, it's possible to do, but just not publicized in advertising.
Fried Food
Banned
I hope Sony is ready to sell a fraction of the copies of GT7 that they sold of GT6
Bluforce
Member
I am sad too, but this is not going to happen.
psn
Member
I thought GT6 sold good but not close to GT5..
But I think when GT7 releases they will sell a ton easily... even tho there is PCars..
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