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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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B

boogie2988

Banned
Vlade said:
I think you are internalizing a lot of this when you need to remember a lot of people are not. Discussing feminism without the context of an audience, personal situation, and what is government action leaves it so that you might be discussing personal ideals while others are looking at the state of the nation.

You might be thinking of useful motivation for a person, but would be awful ideology for a nation, or even outsiders.

Thanks for hoping in here to talk!
Click to expand...

It is very difficult for me to not internalize this stuff. When I see female journalists quit the industry, or when i see gamers begging me to defend them, its difficult for me to not have emotions about that. I don't internalize it, it starts there. I'm trying to pour it out onto the internet so I can remain sane.

but thanks for the notion and kind sentiment. :)
 
J

jschreier

Member
boogie2988 said:
Again, I reject the idea that a fringe group of a couple hundred thousand people represents you and I and all other gamers. That's the very misconception that brought me into this thing in the first place.

that said, you are probably right. I don't think anything will happen from all of this. I expect this to remain a gaping wound in the industry for quite some time; perhaps years. that thought make sme cry.
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But there doesn't have to be a gaping wound here. Both Kotaku and RPS have already come out with statements making it perfectly clear that they don't hate video game fans or even the word "gamer." Journalists like myself and MHWilliams are more than willing to have open discussions about ethics and how we can improve them. What we need is for moderates like you to detach yourself from this harmful campaign, sort out what needs to be discussed (journalistic issues) from what doesn't ("anti-SJW" nonsense), and realize that continuing to tweet about GamerGate is continuing to fan the flames of harassment.
 
M

marrec

Banned
boogie2988 said:
that said, you are probably right. I don't think anything will happen from all of this. I expect this to remain a gaping wound in the industry for quite some time; perhaps years. that thought make sme cry.
Click to expand...

Things have been 'happening' with corruption in journalism for quite some time now. We didn't need an abusive hashtag movement to uncover the fact that, just like in any industry, people know each other. The prominent writers have always been more than willing to talk about their relationships with those they cover.

The only wound this is leaving is the absence of a few voices that may not ever be heard in the context of video games again. That's the price we're paying for all of this.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
jschreier said:
But there doesn't have to be a gaping wound here. Both Kotaku and RPS have already come out with statements making it perfectly clear that they don't hate video game fans or even the word "gamer." Journalists like myself and MHWilliams are more than willing to have open discussions about ethics and how we can improve them. What we need is for moderates like you to detach yourself from this harmful campaign, sort out what needs to be discussed (journalistic issues) from what doesn't ("anti-SJW" nonsense), and realize that continuing to tweet about GamerGate is continuing to fan the flames of harassment.
Click to expand...

I admire and appreciate those publications for doing that.

I still reject the notion that simply using the tag #gamergate to preach kindness, empathy, and love to those involved is fanning any flames. Unless, of course, I'm the only one using that hashtag I guess.

But that said, I am afraid you may be wrong. I think some of the people involved in this thing on either side are going to cling to it long after moderates like me have moved on. the flames will die down and it won't be as visible, but I'm afraid it will continue to burn. :(
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
marrec said:
Things have been 'happening' with corruption in journalism for quite some time now. We didn't need an abusive hashtag movement to uncover the fact that, just like in any industry, people know each other. The prominent writers have always been more than willing to talk about their relationships with those they cover.

The only wound this is leaving is the absence of a few voices that may not ever be heard in the context of video games again. That's the price we're paying for all of this.
Click to expand...

as sorry as I am to see the people who have left the field over this, I know that there are new proud feminists every day who hunger for the success and spotlight that will allow them to evoke change from within. I know that these women will be strong enough to endure whatever the world has to throw at them and overcome. I can't wait to meet them.
 
J

jschreier

Member
boogie2988 said:
I admire and appreciate those publications for doing that.

I still reject the notion that simply using the tag #gamergate to preach kindness, empathy, and love to those involved is fanning any flames. Unless, of course, I'm the only one using that hashtag I guess.

But that said, I am afraid you may be wrong. I think some of the people involved in this thing on either side are going to cling to it long after moderates like me have moved on. the flames will die down and it won't be as visible, but I'm afraid it will continue to burn. :(
Click to expand...
You really need to understand that continuing to support the tag #gamergate is participating in the campaign, and therefore implicitly supporting what they've done.

It's like standing at a Tea Party protest and shouting "go Tea Party! But also peace and love!" You might be a moderate who just wants people to treat each other better, but you are quite literally taking the side of radicals -- radicals who have already bullied out one of the most talented writers in games, Jenn Frank. THAT'S what this movement has accomplished. By supporting GamerGate, that's what you're supporting. I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.
 
A

antigoon

Member
1. That RPS post really knocked it out of the park. Especially the part about "political" games criticism. A couple of people here have eloquently touched on the same point but I think it's good that it sees greater exposure. I would be interested in hearing a response from someone who disagrees.

2. There was a link in there to an actual productive conversation Brett Douville had with a gamergate-type guy on twitter. Worth a read. https://storify.com/brett_douville/extending-the-branch

3. Boogie - I have criticized you in this thread and I am sorry if I helped contribute to the deterioration of your mental state. For what it's worth, I think it says a lot about you that you are willing to come here and talk with us. We all know your heart is in the right place.
 
M

Mael

Member
boogie2988 said:
I admire and appreciate those publications for doing that.

I still reject the notion that simply using the tag #gamergate to preach kindness, empathy, and love to those involved is fanning any flames. Unless, of course, I'm the only one using that hashtag I guess.

But that said, I am afraid you may be wrong. I think some of the people involved in this thing on either side are going to cling to it long after moderates like me have moved on. the flames will die down and it won't be as visible, but I'm afraid it will continue to burn. :(
Click to expand...

Well no one will want to hear what you say if you use the hashtag #genocideisok either.
As it is #gamergate is tainted and unless people tweet en masse to shun and shit on the harassers the taint ain't going anywhere.
 
W

Widge

Member
I feel like this has driven a wedge between gamers despite the unifying rhetoric. A huge one. Perhaps it was already there before but it is certainly there and visible now. Salt and vinegar being rubbed in it.

I came onto Gaf ages ago, haunted, left, returned around E3 looking for some news as it happened. Here, if anywhere, is possible the greatest collection of dedicated gamers that I have ever seen. Yet this site is fingerpointed as one to ignore, the censorship of the truth site.

Just can't see how #gamergate is bonding anything together in the face of the press pieces about the death of gamers (which were evolution pieces). It seems a majority of us looked at those pieces and thought "yep, we know that population, they need to move with the times and stop dragging us back". Except the process of trying to highlight them has unified them in attack while managing to draw in a load around them, from opportunists, trolls, the misguided idealistic and those hoping to do well. It's a horrible mess.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
jschreier said:
You really need to understand that continuing to support the tag #gamergate is participating in the campaign, and therefore implicitly supporting what they've done.

It's like standing at a Tea Party protest and shouting "go Tea Party! But also peace and love!" You might be a moderate who just wants people to treat each other better, but you are quite literally taking the side of radicals -- radicals who have already bullied out one of the most talented writers in games, Jenn Frank. THAT'S what this movement has accomplished. By supporting GamerGate, that's what you're supporting. I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.
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I never said I'm supporting gamergate. You say that simply showing up to the rally is supporting it. Does that go for this guy?
http://i.imgur.com/L1kw4Yq.jpg

Because that's exactly what I am doing. Standing at the rally, and using that rally to shame the hate filled misogynistic and illogical combatants in the hopes that I can show someone how absurd the people on the fringe are being.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
Mael said:
Well no one will want to hear what you say if you use the hashtag #genocideisok either.
As it is #gamergate is tainted and unless people tweet en masse to shun and shit on the harassers the taint ain't going anywhere.
Click to expand...

I don't know how to communicate this clearer, but only a small fraction of people have accepted the dialogue that the hashtag is tainted. the majority of the people using the tag and/or reading it have never heard this dialogue and many reject it out right.
 
M

marrec

Banned
boogie2988 said:
as sorry as I am to see the people who have left the field over this, I know that there are new proud feminists every day who hunger for the success and spotlight that will allow them to evoke change from within. I know that these women will be strong enough to endure whatever the world has to throw at them and overcome. I can't wait to meet them.
Click to expand...

While this seems a bit dismissive of the reasons for their departure, I do sympathize with your excitement. Maybe this whole shitshow will produce someone as disruptive and personal and raw as those who left or those who are remaining. It's exciting to see a few people out there continuing to hone their rhetorical skills on this.

That said, implying that someone isn't strong enough because they left is missing the point. I've known for a few years now one prominent woman in the DOTA 2 scene who has, as of a few days ago, decided she's not going to pursue success in the game anymore because of the constant abuse she receives. It could be described as her favorite game, but each game leaves her emotionally drained and if you do that 5 or 6 times a day it can, as you yourself know, have a real physical effect on you.

It's not about strength. Those who left are strong... they just don't owe you or me or anyone their voice and can leave to save their health whenever they want.
 
W

Widge

Member
jschreier said:
bullied out one of the most talented writers in games, Jenn Frank.
Click to expand...

and THAT was done under the banner of ethics, transparency and conflicts of interest. The crux of the movement. It fired its cannon, hit the target and didn't wait or care to hear whether or not it should have fired in the first place. Set them up, knock them down. That is the mantra.

Hence the roping on of Sommers. It is the best possible quickfire counter to anyone trying to dive back to the actual roots (before the death of gamers) of the situation which was mistreatment of women in gaming.

Also you now have to caveat the above with "notallwomen" because it is apparently impossible for people to discern the sentiment with a bland thoughtless assumption of blanket coverage.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
marrec said:
While this seems a bit dismissive of the reasons for their departure, I do sympathize with your excitement. Maybe this whole shitshow will produce someone as disruptive and personal and raw as those who left or those who are remaining. It's exciting to see a few people out there continuing to hone their rhetorical skills on this.

That said, implying that someone isn't strong enough because they left is missing the point. I've known for a few years now one prominent woman in the DOTA 2 scene who has, as of a few days ago, decided she's not going to pursue success in the game anymore because of the constant abuse she receives. It could be described as her favorite game, but each game leaves her emotionally drained and if you do that 5 or 6 times a day it can, as you yourself know, have a real physical effect on you.

It's not about strength. Those who left are strong... they just don't owe you or me or anyone their voice and can leave to save their health whenever they want.
Click to expand...

I did not mean to imply those things. I never meant to imply that those people that left are weak. Anyone that endures that kind of harassment will eventually find a quitting point, myself included. I know the number of days I can continue this job is limited.

If the job was not more rewarding for them than it was harmful by all means it was the right decision. I am very sad that a few sad lunatics (and not gamergate as a whole) forced their hands and made it not worth it.

That said, I'm glad you share my enthusiasm about the next great crop of wonderful male and female gamers, writers, and developers that will change the world. I hope that those lunatics allow them to stay a while.
 
J

jschreier

Member
boogie2988 said:
I never said I'm supporting gamergate. You say that simply showing up to the rally is supporting it. Does that go for this guy?
http://i.imgur.com/L1kw4Yq.jpg

Because that's exactly what I am doing. Standing at the rally, and using that rally to shame the hate filled misogynistic and illogical combatants in the hopes that I can show someone how absurd the people on the fringe are being.
Click to expand...
The rally IS the fringe. That's why nobody in the professional video game press is taking it seriously anymore -- even people like me who are CONSTANTLY talking about ethics and how we could do better. That's why even the LA Times is condemning it. That's why people feel like you're on the side of hate. I really hope you understand this soon.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
jschreier said:
The rally IS the fringe. That's why nobody in the professional video game press is taking it seriously anymore -- even people like me who are CONSTANTLY talking about ethics and how we could do better. That's why even the LA Times is condemning it. That's why people feel like you're on the side of hate. I really hope you understand this soon.
Click to expand...

If people think that I'm on the side of hate, by simply preaching equality and tolerance using a hashtag they dislike then...

Jason, not only will I be glad to burn for that but I HOPE THAT I DO. a world filled with people that can make that kind of misguided logical leap is not a world I want to participate in. The thought of it makes me hope I don't wake up when I go to sleep in a few minutes.
 
M

Mael

Member
boogie2988 said:
I don't know how to communicate this clearer, but only a small fraction of people have accepted the dialogue that the hashtag is tainted. the majority of the people using the tag and/or reading it have never heard this dialogue and many reject it out right.
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I have seen no condemnation of the things the bad apples did using the #.
What I've seen however is plenty of people calling for the banning, tarring and feathering of publications and people.
When I saw the image post with the "evidence" of the 4chan people, I thought it was a joke at first.
They're the guys that claim Fish fake his hacking and other stupid conspiracies.
There have been no effort in distancing the good people from the bad.
It's only a hashtag anyway, no one is forcing anyone to use it.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
speaking of which jason I'd still love to skype you before I slept. could you do it in the next 30 minutes or so?

you promised me monday ;)
 
B

blitzcloud

Banned
jschreier said:
The rally IS the fringe. That's why nobody in the professional video game press is taking it seriously anymore -- even people like me who are CONSTANTLY talking about ethics and how we could do better. That's why even the LA Times is condemning it. That's why people feel like you're on the side of hate. I really hope you understand this soon.
Click to expand...

a person believing one thing is anecdotal evidence at best. As much of an hydra monster this campaign can be, a known name behind an article of opinion doesn't make it inherently true. In my opinion you constructed your rebuttal with the same kind of argument of 1 + 1 = 11 that many gamergate endorsers use. anecdotal relation here, names appearing together there, a game being mentioned by those names that match: escalating the ladder through sexual manipulation!

saying that boogie is in the side of hate goes as far fetched as that kinda argument.
 
I

Intheflorsh

Banned
boogie2988 said:
I never said I'm supporting gamergate. You say that simply showing up to the rally is supporting it. Does that go for this guy?
http://i.imgur.com/L1kw4Yq.jpg

Because that's exactly what I am doing. Standing at the rally, and using that rally to shame the hate filled misogynistic and illogical combatants in the hopes that I can show someone how absurd the people on the fringe are being.
Click to expand...

That's not at all the same. You might be showing up at the rally with good intentions, but you're holding up the same sign as everyone else. The people driving by aren't going to know what your personal goals are since, to them, you're just another face in the crowd amplifying a broad message.

I'm torturing this metaphor, I know.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Intheflorsh said:
That's not at all the same. You might be showing up at the rally with good intentions, but you're holding up the same sign as everyone else. The people driving by aren't going to know what your personal goals are since, to them, you're just another face in the crowd amplifying a broad message.

I'm torturing this metaphor, I know.
Click to expand...

Lets torture it even more:

Malicious people are going to rallies that you don't even know about, holding up your face on a sign and saying 'Look, this is one person who agrees with us!' and then beating very specific people up while screaming "ETHICS" and "CORRUPTION".
 
F

Foggy

Member
boogie2988 said:
If people think that I'm on the side of hate, by simply preaching equality and tolerance using a hashtag they dislike then...

Jason, not only will I be glad to burn for that but I HOPE THAT I DO. a world filled with people that can make that kind of misguided logical leap is not a world I want to participate in. The thought of it makes me hope I don't wake up when I go to sleep in a few minutes.
Click to expand...

Perception is reality and that's at the core of the current clusterfuck. You take great exception to the sort of criticism lobbed at gaming culture and the only "side" that even attempts to understand your frustration is the same "side" that has bullied, bludgeoned, and harassed people out of the industry. Using legit concerns to propagate illegitimate claims and then taking the side of the "gamer". They're too loud and too destructive for any nuance or compassion to leak out of the core. Of course the other "side" has lobbed so many damn grenades that the disenfranchised feel under attack and try to find some voice in the madness. The well has already been poisoned and you're trying to make lemonade out of bile.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
Intheflorsh said:
That's not at all the same. You might be showing up at the rally with good intentions, but you're holding up the same sign as everyone else. The people driving by aren't going to know what your personal goals are since, to them, you're just another face in the crowd amplifying a broad message.

I'm torturing this metaphor, I know.
Click to expand...

My signs have only ever read

"Equality is super great"
"Be nice to each other"
"The extremists on both ends of this thing are assholes"
"Gamers are not evil."

if those are the same signs as everyone else i don't see the problem.
 
A

Abelian75

Neo Member
For what it's worth, Boogie, I'm probably pretty close to being on your "side", if such things exist. And even so, I'm kind of with Jason, if a little less aggressively so, that there's little good that can come of the hashtag at this point.

If there's one thing I've learned here, it's that twitter mobs are just... not that great at driving a discussion (and that goes for both sides, but certainly more for the gamergate side in this case).

I think I'm on the same page as you are, and I've found this whole thing rather heartbreaking as well. I think there are legitimate grievances with the way certain messages are delivered (and, sure, I guess journalistic integrity stuff, though honestly I think that's largely a distraction from what's causing this rift), but gamergate is so scattered right now that I don't see it doing much good to press forward with that mob of people.

I don't mean to insult the people using it, it's just no longer clear to me, at all, what the mob has in common or what they actually want to happen. It's just a bunch of people screaming at... something? I happen to be sympathetic and think I understand WHY a lot of them are screaming (and it has little to do with what's being said, imho), but there's no way we're going to be able to swing the conversation back to those issues in this sort of environment.

Edit: I should add that I don't actually think that it's a particularly hateful group in that hashtag (so I guess I disagree with Jason there), but it is sort of a nonsensical chorus of finger pointing. I don't really buy the "you're supporting hate!" angle, but rather the "your message is garbled and looks sort of ridiculous" angle. As someone who DOES care about what I think is the actual issue, I'd prefer to see it die so that some of the stuff can be discussed more tactically in a calmer, less defensive environment.
 
W

Widge

Member
Ok, according to @TheRalphRetort over on twitter (hello), we are apparently harassing our poor Boogie here.

As I've said, I am doing my best to come across not as a pestering frother in all of this, but there are a lot of us who are trying to say "look at this picture".

At the end of it all, we can see the woe you're going through and that is not fun for someone who is driven with the best of intentions (which we can see).
 
stuminus3

stuminus3

Member
Jason, that you continue to pressure Boogie is exactly the reason many of us are mad at you. Boogie isn't attaching himself to a hate campaign. You are attaching him to a hate campaign.

Some of us are old and wise enough to want to put out the fires... it's extremely condescending to be told to look for fires where there isn't even any smoke.
 
5

54-46!

Member
While people like to think that 4chan is a hive mind of people who all want to achieve the same goal, the reality is that its users are more likely to be fighting each other (/v/ especially) than going after some other group or entity.

When 4chan finally bands together and fight for a common goal for more than a day or two, it's probably for a good reason. Gamergate and the stories that followed are a culmination of two things that have been in the boiling pot for a while now; A) The lack of ethics in games journalism, and B) The misrepresentation of core video game enthusiasts and the games themselves in games journalism.

Some of the criticism is a bit misguided and there are bad apples in every group but the core values of the message being put forward are valid.

The irony is that the website some point out as a cesspit of women hating white males is also most likely the best place for anyone to discuss anything with anyone. Because you don't have a gender, race, user name, tag, post history or followers for anyone to look at and judge you by - only your opinion matters. Everyone is an equal.
 
I

Intheflorsh

Banned
boogie2988 said:
My signs have only ever read

"Equality is super great"
"Be nice to each other"
"The extremists on both ends of this thing are assholes"
"Gamers are not evil."

if those are the same signs as everyone else i don't see the problem.
Click to expand...

We both know they're not. The thing those signs have in common is #gamergate and that is ultimately what most people are going to see.
 
W

Widge

Member
stuminus3 said:
Jason, that you continue to pressure Boogie is exactly the reason many of us are mad at you. Boogie isn't attaching himself to a hate campaign. You are attaching him to a hate campaign.

Some of us are old and wise enough to want to put out the fires... it's extremely condescending to be told to look for fires where there isn't even any smoke.
Click to expand...

and @ 54-46!

Right. You have a vial of poison where one drop, even diluted, is enough to kill you. Drink it you die.

You have a nice glass of water, run through the purest of geological mineral layers. It has the same poison in it. You still die.



I can't believe people don't see it. There are an abundance of "rah the offensive SJW's can't take gamergate" comments out there, even on Google+! By the definition of the positive cause, that shouldn't be part of it. It is a poisoned message.
 
N

Noaloha

Member
The RPS article is a good read. Unsure what the "let's laugh at RPS backpedaling" #gg tweets are getting at. I eagerly await an equally well written reply to RPS's take on the situation.

One part of the RPS which I especially agree with, in terms of where I personally would prefer attention and effort to be pointed, is touched on in this quote (underlines added for my own emphasis):


"While there are certainly people who feel alienated from the games press, or who are (for whatever reason) unhappy about how the games press functions, many of the people who have pushed their ideas and opinions during this furore are people whose views are extreme and sexist. There are numerous individuals criticising the games press who are simultaneously harassing and abusing women. Many of these people have a history of attacking women. Their main intention is to attack women, not to improve practice across games. It’s deeply ugly stuff, and has little to do with ethics or games. It has to do with politics and hate.

Still others are simply reveling in the chaos and the cruelty, because they are bullies. It is profoundly damaging to people, and to games. These are just a few people, but they are causing great harm, and causing gamers to get caught in a web of misunderstanding and anger. That’s not helping anyone who believes they have a valid point to make about games and the games press. It should be at the top of our list of priorities to fix that, precisely so that discussion can take place."
 
F

FF Seraphim

Member
Widge said:
Ok, according to @TheRalphRetort over on twitter (hello), we are apparently harassing our poor Boogie here.

As I've said, I am doing my best to come across not as a pestering frother in all of this, but there are a lot of us who are trying to say "look at this picture".

At the end of it all, we can see the woe you're going through and that is not fun for someone who is driven with the best of intentions (which we can see).
Click to expand...

Well you got to admit the course of the conversation changed from page 54 onward has been mostly focused on Boogie, since well he is replying to the multitude of people asking him and questioning his stance on the issue.

He sees Gamergate as one thing and you guys see it as another.
 
S

Sophia

Member
jschreier said:
The rally IS the fringe. That's why nobody in the professional video game press is taking it seriously anymore -- even people like me who are CONSTANTLY talking about ethics and how we could do better. That's why even the LA Times is condemning it. That's why people feel like you're on the side of hate. I really hope you understand this soon.
Click to expand...

I should probably clarify a bit, seeing as I've been toeing the line on if I want to post in this thread or not, and mentioning it on Twitter was my way of compromising on that. The issue is pretty close to me, being both a woman and a transgender one at that. As well as one who is interested in potentially getting into the industry in the near feature. GamerGate itself has been a rather confusing topic. Beyond the fact that female members of the gaming industry had been harassed, it wasn't quite clear initially to me who even supported what in regards to this whole thing. More than that, attempting to get an explanation resulted in multiple people all telling me widely different things. And also got me a few people I had to outright block from my Twitter and ask.fm. It was only thanks to the wonderful moderators and the reasonable posters in this thread that I fully understood what this was about. So I hope you can understand why I was indecisive and posted that to twitter instead of bringing my thoughts directly to this thread.

Boogie. I know you're not on the side of hate. It is perfectly clear reading this thread that your heart is in the right place. But I hope you can realize that the hashtag in question has become toxic. I've seen my friends harassed by people using that hashtag. I've seen my friends succumb to the same confusion that I had and use that hashtag itself, not fully understanding what is going on. One of them had to go to extremes and temporary get off twitter, because the whole situation was causing problems for them. It makes it difficult to discuss the issue when you're openly using it and basically standing on the the side of the haters, despite the fact that your intention appears to be the opposite of that. And right now, we really need that open discussing more than anything. So I'd hope you'd reconsider your use of it.

I'm also a little bit worried by how much the issue seems to be impacting you mentally, especially because of your own admittance of what this is doing to you. You're a good person, and it would be awful if something were to happen because of this.

I apologize ahead of time if this post isn't clear. I didn't suddenly expect to get mentioned in the thread like this when I tweeted that, even though I should have known better because I said it in a public place. So my thoughts on the subject aren't fully organized right now.
 
W

Widge

Member
FF Seraphim said:
Well you got to admit the course of the conversation changed from page 54 onward has been mostly focused on Boogie, since well he is replying to the multitude of people asking him and questioning his stance on the issue.

He sees Gamergate as one thing and you guys see it as another.
Click to expand...

Ok. I'm going to step back because I AM going into the realm of bothering if I keep up. It's all been said anyway I suppose. Big hugs for Boogie all around.

Plus I should be throwing my energies into something creative instead, so it's tab closin' time.
 
I

Intheflorsh

Banned
Completely understandable, Boogie. This issue is stressing me out and I'm barely even participating in it. :p

I really respect that you've tried to be a positive voice throughout this issue. That counts for a lot.
 
stuminus3

stuminus3

Member
Widge said:
I can't believe people don't see it. There are an abundance of "rah the offensive SJW's can't take gamergate" comments out there, even on Google+! By the definition of the positive cause, that shouldn't be part of it. It is a poisoned message.
Click to expand...
You don't know what I do and do not see.

Trust me, it would be an enormous waste of your time and energy for you to put words in my mouth then try to argue about it. I am not your enemy.
 
L

lorebringer

Member
Widge said:
This is the association level of #gamergate right now:

https://twitter.com/TripleSK7/status/508763914260058112

Someone says this, a bunch of avatars spread it, and I'm seeing a lot of familiar ones pop up over and over. The only problem is that they are perceived as "right" or "just" should I say.
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Oh shit busted. Pack it in Fish time to leave videogames forever. I can't believe these people all know each other it's disgusting. I think we should extend FOI requests to cover video game people's emails and also we should implement a system of gps tagging for developers so we can know when they're contacting media people in person. This kind of cronyptism makes me sick.
 
A

Abelian75

Neo Member
Toodles said:
Still others are simply reveling in the chaos and the cruelty, because they are bullies. It is profoundly damaging to people, and to games. These are just a few people, but they are causing great harm, and causing gamers to get caught in a web of misunderstanding and anger. That’s not helping anyone who believes they have a valid point to make about games and the games press. It should be at the top of our list of priorities to fix that, precisely so that discussion can take place."[/I]
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Yeah, I liked this bit too. Honestly, both this and Totilo's article were quite good, and I was actually rather hopeful things would quiet down after his article (and I have a feeling they may have, had not more fuel been poured on the fire).

I don't really see how anyone can hope for more than this right now. It's obvious that people have been heard, and even if predominantly people are thinking "God, what a bunch of assholes" about gamergate, I see some evidence that the thought "Hm, maybe we've been alienating some decent people, though" is also there, at least in the background. That's really all that can be hoped for.

Presumably the goal here is to improve communication overall, and that's a two-way street. At some point you have to accept that you've said your piece, and step back and let the other person (or people, in this case) think on what you've said for a while. You can't MAKE people listen to you, you just have to hope they're willing to.
 
S

Sneds

Member
boogie2988 said:
just went and checked that and based on all things you provided I'll be glad to remove Sommers from my list of favorite feminists. Maybe that means the witch hunt can end since it seems really, really important to people.

Chalk it up again to my quick reactions, lack of sleep, and ignorance on the topic.

Now maybe that particular little witch hunt can end and certain people can begin anew finding a way to discredit me. :)
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A few things boogie:

1) Feminism is an important and complex topic. It isn't something you want to dive into and start labelling people as logical feminists (as opposed to illogical feminists presumably) unless you've done your research. Especially when the feminists you're labelling as logical are as controversial as Sommers.

2) When someone criticises you for your opinions about feminism, a topic which you now admit ignorance of, it's not a good idea to dismiss that as a witch hunt. Feminism is incredibly important to people. It's a liberation movement. So, if you endorse controversial people you can expect some pushback.

3) I have no interest in discrediting you. I just disagree with you about some things.
 
F

FF Seraphim

Member
boogie2988 said:
After some heavy thinking, I'm beginning to consider all of the things you people have said. I think its time I took my graceful exit.

http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/96970301078/why-im-taking-a-break-from-discussing-gamergate
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Boogie stepping back is the best choice one can make with this storm of misunderstanding and just plain hate being shot back and forth.

I do have a question for you though:
Have you ever considered setting up a gaming group of like minded individuals? I guess some would call it a clan who knows, but I think we can all agree right now we need more moderation on forums/online gaming/etc...
Make it a steam group or whatnot where people of any kind can hop on and know they are playing with people who won't throw out insults because of who they are. Just being in a safe environment might make people feel more comfortable while playing.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
FF Seraphim said:
Boogie stepping back is the best choice one can make with this storm of misunderstanding and just plain hate being shot back and forth.

I do have a question for you though:
Have you ever considered setting up a gaming group of like minded individuals? I guess some would call it a clan who knows, but I think we can all agree right now we need more moderation on forums/online gaming/etc...
Make it a steam group or whatnot where people of any kind can hop on and know they are playing with people who won't throw out insults because of who they are. Just being in a safe environment might make people feel more comfortable while playing.
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I might consider this in the future. As naive as this may sound I actually thought i was in a group of like minded gamers before all of this started. I called it "every gamer"

:/
 
F

FF Seraphim

Member
boogie2988 said:
I might consider this in the future. As naive as this may sound I actually thought i was in a group of like minded gamers before all of this started. I called it "every gamer"

:/
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I honestly think that you would be one of the better people to head such a group. So I hope you would take serious considerations into it.
A safe comfortable (video game) environment, I believe, is key to helping people understand each other.
 
V

Vlade

Member
Abelian75 said:
Yeah, I liked this bit too. Honestly, both this and Totilo's article were quite good, and I was actually rather hopeful things would quiet down after his article (and I have a feeling they may have, had not more fuel been poured on the fire).

I don't really see how anyone can hope for more than this right now. It's obvious that people have been heard, and even if predominantly people are thinking "God, what a bunch of assholes" about gamergate, I see some evidence that the thought "Hm, maybe we've been alienating some decent people, though" is also there, at least in the background. That's really all that can be hoped for.

Presumably the goal here is to improve communication overall, and that's a two-way street. At some point you have to accept that you've said your piece, and step back and let the other person (or people, in this case) think on what you've said for a while. You can't MAKE people listen to you, you just have to hope they're willing to.
Click to expand...

we can not continuously show concern that someones voice is being heard when they are in the wrong, at some point enough is enough, and that has happened with some of the positions in this whole.. debate. We do not need to keep trying to figure out "what they actually meant" (code for changing the arguement) just so we can have a middle ground. everyone can speak, but they are not and should not be given exposure at the expense of what is still useful.

I'm probably agreeing with you, but this idea that because something is an opinion we owe it respect is basically an excuse for being wrong in many cases. people can speak, we owe the person some respect, we owe the opinion nothing.
 
S

Simply Sarah

Member
boogie2988 said:
After some heavy thinking, I'm beginning to consider all of the things you people have said. I think its time I took my graceful exit.

http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/96970301078/why-im-taking-a-break-from-discussing-gamergate
Click to expand...

Best wishes, dude. I think this is all for best since #gamergate is just such an unfocused mess that little good can come from it directly. Maybe once things settle down, you can be a part of more narrow, focused, and friendly discussions about some of these issues.
 
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