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Danny O'Dwyer The Point - Destiny, Reviews and Aging Gamers

Bx_QqQyCIAIDdM1.jpg


http://www.gamespot.com/videos/the-point-destiny-reviews-and-aging-gamers/2300-6421421

Now I don't mingle in the "gamergate" or "game journo" discussions because I just can't I'm here to enjoy my games as a pass time.
And I simply don't have the right words to express the right thing to say about it and not sound like crazy person.
So I just keep my self far away from it all but wanted to make this thread anyway because seriously gaf this video hit way to close to home.

WOW seriously GAF.

This video hit me right in the hart, seriously this video is like he taped in my mind and saw my 27 years of gaming go by and explain why we are here and why we now feel the way we feel right now.

And like most of GAF if you are a 25+ year old and have been playing games all your life and are not an internet asshole this video will speak to you.

What say the rest of you?
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
He's the most Irish person I have ever seen

And I'm Irish
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Danny's the best video game talking head. I always watch all of these even when it's subjects I don't care about because I like the substance and the editing.
 

Zaph

Member
Danny nailed it.

Growing up and watching games evolve rapidly definitely gave me a sense of constantly craving something new. If anything, this indie uprising has definitely helped satiate that - I can enjoy a 5 hour COD romp then sit back with a good PnC or weird experiment.
 

El-Suave

Member
I'm really enjoying Destiny, but there are flaws, especially in the single player/story aspect of the game that are pretty obvious no matter what gaming background you have. His point is very valid and interesting for evaluating reviews in general, but I don't see how Destiny is a good example to illustrate it.
 

Briarios

Member
About liking games -- yes, 100% ... People need to stop caring what other people love or hate. Let people just enjoy themselves, stop trying to bring everyone down. There isn't going to be 100% agreement about anything done for enjoyment -- it's all personal.

Unacceptable behavior, though, needs to be called out -- but, it needs to be done without further anger or bullying He lightly broached the subject, so it needed to be mentioned.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I think there are lots of ideas in here that produce a less coherent point than I expected.

First, it is worth separating the #gamergate stuff from arguing over reviews on message boards. Conflating the two seems to mask the real origins of the gamergate nonsense.

More importantly, though, I'm in his age range and I don't know that I am on the same page with the general thesis (bias towards new gameplay experiences). I'm not even entirely sure his examples represent new gameplay experiences. I was really expecting to see something like Tomb Raider or Super Mario 64 pop up. Real genre redefining games. Half Life -> Half Life 2 is a refinement (imo, a poor one) of an existing construct. The same is true of a lot of the examples he listed.

I find that as I get older, I am more interested in varied experiences and not in any one particular subset of experiences new or old. So I don't know that I agree.

I'm also not too sure about his comments on consensus. I don't agree there was ever a period in gaming (or in film or in literature) where it was easy to find or reach a consensus on anything. I don't think it's harder now to find a singular voice (as he says, a singular truth) about Destiny as it was about any game from the 90s.

This seems really romantic.
 

Ostinatto

Member
I thought he was going to say that Destiny was a step back in the evolution of video games or something like that. xD Anti-climactic but great video Mr. O'Dwyer.
 
Danny nailed it.

Growing up and watching games evolve rapidly definitely gave me a sense of constantly craving something new. If anything, this indie uprising has definitely helped satiate that - I can enjoy a 5 hour COD romp then sit back with a good PnC or weird experiment.

I feel the same. The indies have satisfied that crave for me. That's why I laugh at those that degrade them automatically and want MOAR TRIPPLE A.

I am at the point that we are with movies and books and music. I just want to be entertained and if that's my takeaway, then it's a great game. No matter what the budget of the game was.
 

Oxirane

Member
As noted by Danny, leaps in gameplay type/style have also been accompanied by new control methods, in addition to increasing graphical horsepower.
I get the sense that nowadays there is some resistance to anything without familiar/standardised controls, which is a difficult constraint for developers trying to deliver new experiences (games will feel too 'samey', or are too exotic).
 

mhayze

Member
A well reasoned and thoughtful piece. Regarding Destiny reviews, I think the 7-8/10 scores and the relative lack of content are not a bad thing. It's hard to know how to review a game that you know will have many, many times the amount of content, gameplay experiences and polish in a few years compared to what it has now, at launch. If it's a 10 today, what would it be once it reaches the maximum potential it will a few years from now? In that context, it's not a bad score. There are plenty of games that are the best game they will ever be at launch day (or close to it), and rating those games as a 7.5/10 or a 9.2/10 when deserved seems different than the typical MMO with evolving quality and content that Destiny seems closer to.

Personally, I'm still glad Bungie released it now, rather than waiting another 2 years while they build more content. I don't use Metacritic as sole determination on whether to buy a game, but like many 'core gamers' find scores and discussions around the relative merit of a game fascinating and hard to avoid chiming in to.

The video in the OP does a good job of reminding all such commentators that it's OK to take a step back and not feel so personally invested in the meta-score of a game.
 
?

Way better than "gamer"

I think so too. Idk I just really wanted a reason to use that gif and thought it was appropriate sort of as a scorching of the term "gamer" hehe


O'Dwyer made some good points, especially about the whole age differentiation and what they want. I feel like Destiny is being championed by young people and by people who can be deemed "casual." Not casual in the sense that they're scrubs but casual in the sense they don't have a lot of history with the format. I'm 21 and I feel like the average console gamer my age eventually caught on with video games somewhere down the line rather than grow up with it. I mean the way I got sucked into games is because my brother loved snes/n64/dreamcast and my uncle was really into computers. Because of this, I afforded the luxury of playing the shit out of all those while expanding my gaming palate. I'll never forget my first time playing FF "III" and seeing that beginning cutscene :')
 
Danny O'Dwyer is absolutely on point. Fantastic video.

I suppose he's right, it's time for my consumption and criticism of games to grow up. If I don't like something, that doesn't mean its shit, garbage, or even bad... only that I don't care for it. My tastes have evolved, refined, and advanced since I began my gaming career. I don't need to like every genre or every game, and I need the perspective and presence of mind to realise why. This is the destiny of video games and video gamers (as a medium and as consumers, respectively); where one size will never fit all, and fans of every genre exist independant of one-another.

Now we just need publishers to realise this, though the recent Kickstarter-fuelled renaissance of RPGs gives me hope in this regard.

#NegateTheHate (because everything needs a hashtag to be relevant nowadays).
#HireODwyer
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I see his general point though it does probably does look a bit too idealized but yes we are in a era where there are many points of view but design tends to only go to a small spectrum in most games because most game designers are not Kojima and co and feel better aping some games. I think the real issue is too much extremists dictating the narravtive on "This should be a 9.0 or I feel like I wasted mah moneys"
 
I've been playing games since the 80's, but I really don't find myself caring about new experiences. Not in the sense that i'd avoid them, but in the sense that I really don't care if a game really offers anything new. I just want a great game. If that happens to come from a new experience, then that's great. But i'm not going to look down on a game that happens to be great just because it's iterative of another game in its series or another.

I'm playing Destiny right now, and while it's not really antyhing "new", i'm still having a lot of fun. I'm level 20 and I haven't even left Russia at this point. I've just been having fun running around doing bounties and patrol missions.
 
I love his conclusion, but I'm not sure I agree that games like Destiny are any less impressive and evolutionary than games I played when growing up (I'm now 27).

Being able to play a console shooter like Destiny that successfully blends so many styles of single player, co-op, and PVP game play into one cohesive experience is a pretty damn important milestone imo. Just as big a step forward as Half Life 1 to 2 was, or Doom 2 to 3 was. That is, it isn't a massive leap forward, but it's definitely a noticeable (and appreciated) step that should impact on the industry as a whole going forward. Yes, Destiny is very rough in the details, but the framework is very impressive and clearly very popular.
 
His idea that younger gamers expect less genre defining experiences has no basis in reality. Look at the age of most of the people in the Destiny thread. There was a census thread already too and most of the people in love with the game are 25+

He kind of comes off as "I was there for the golden age so I expect more then you minecraft kids" seems like another form of elitism.

I dunno.

I agree with everything he said about people posting stuff like there opinion is gospel.
 

KevinG

Member
Bx_QqQyCIAIDdM1.jpg


http://www.gamespot.com/videos/the-point-destiny-reviews-and-aging-gamers/2300-6421421

Now I don't mingle in the "gamergate" or "game journo" discussions because I just can't I'm here to enjoy my games as a pass time.
And I simply don't have the right words to express the right thing to say about it and not sound like crazy person.
So I just keep my self far away from it all but wanted to make this thread anyway because seriously gaf this video hit way to close to home.

WOW seriously GAF.

This video hit me right in the hart, seriously this video is like he taped in my mind and saw my 27 years of gaming go by and explain why we are here and why we now feel the way we feel right now.

And like most of GAF if you are a 25+ year old and have been playing games all your life and are not an internet asshole this video will speak to you.

What say the rest of you?

25 years old here. I feel the exact same.
 

BouncyFrag

Member
That was great. I've stopped watching most of the talking heads that get posted here and discussed as I'm tired of the yelling and self-righteous drivel. The negativity around here is getting old. Just take Horizon 2 and DC threads which are littered with shit posting and console warriors frothing at the mouth. My only problem with the games is that I can't play both since I'll only be upgrading to one of the new consoles soon. Gamespot is lucky to have this guy on their site. Be sure to check out the No Man's Sky videos they did.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Hmm good video. His point about games evolving at a slower rate than the past and people having expectations weighed by the past is an interesting thing to consider. (Note: he did not say this is true for everyone, rather it's something to consider). But I feel his message is kind of lost by the end? Or rather I was expecting the video to wrap up differently. To go further then it did. Also his line about misogyny at the end was kind of weird. It's as if his conclusion started to lump a broad spectrum of issues together in a quick swoop.
 
I think there are lots of ideas in here that produce a less coherent point than I expected.

First, it is worth separating the #gamergate stuff from arguing over reviews on message boards. Conflating the two seems to mask the real origins of the gamergate nonsense.

More importantly, though, I'm in his age range and I don't know that I am on the same page with the general thesis (bias towards new gameplay experiences). I'm not even entirely sure his examples represent new gameplay experiences. I was really expecting to see something like Tomb Raider or Super Mario 64 pop up. Real genre redefining games. Half Life -> Half Life 2 is a refinement (imo, a poor one) of an existing construct. The same is true of a lot of the examples he listed.

I find that as I get older, I am more interested in varied experiences and not in any one particular subset of experiences new or old. So I don't know that I agree.

I'm also not too sure about his comments on consensus. I don't agree there was ever a period in gaming (or in film or in literature) where it was easy to find or reach a consensus on anything. I don't think it's harder now to find a singular voice (as he says, a singular truth) about Destiny as it was about any game from the 90s.

This seems really romantic.

Agreed 100%. Even as a kid my tastes didn't match others tastes. Dat feel of being the only kid that played and enjoyed Metal Gear or Dragon Quest. No one media is for everybody. We all have varying tastes, and I agree as I have gotten older my tastes have become even more varied, and that too is unique to me. Others may the opposite and that's okay. It's called being a human being, we are going to have different tastes and opinions.
 

Future

Member
Not sure if this applies directly to destiny. A lot of the poor critical reception seems due to backlash on hype and things that are not even objective, like the shitty story and general repetitiveness. In fact, it seems pretty cut and dry in that you either love the gameplay, making up for the obvious faults and making you willing to play things over and over again. Or you wanted more content or social evolution and the gameplay is not making up for that.

Good vid though. Kiddies that had their first consoles be ps2s still amazes me . What games are that generation gonna want to play or even develop
 

Ivory Samoan

Gold Member
Brilliant vid, can 100% identify with everything he said (34 years deep here).

I'm pretty much over the review process as it stands, giving a percentage score seems so... last decade, man.

Kotaku's style is quite good; but then again.. 'Yes' or 'No' is so final, so definite.

RPS' style is probably the best, no score: just in depth thoughts.
 
Fantastic fucking video. I'm still not opposed to giving scores to games, since they do the same thing with movies and music but as it is currently, sadly, it still holds more weight than it should.

I'm still impressed Destiny got such commotion from the scores it got. From what I've read and saw (yet to play it), it seems really average and it has an average-good score. That should be okay. No problem with something not being the best ever.
 
His history is very close to mine, though I stuck with shooters and starfighter games where he got lost in adventure games and stealth. Felt waves of nostalgia pass over me when watching that.

And while I do agree with his sentiment that people should be left free to love what they want - I'll admit that I'm not sure what that has to do with any ideas of consensus or what aging gamers in particular might be looking for.

Of course I hold gaming up against nostalgia - that's automatic and probably mostly subconscious, but I'd like to think that when it comes to discussing games - and what works and what doesn't, and best and worst practices there's more than enough contemporary examples to hold games up against.

Been watching these videos off an on for a bit now and enjoy his perspective quite a bit though.

Edit: To put a finer point on it with Destiny, we don't have to look at our early gaming days to see why Destiny is being judged the way it is - its enough to compare it to contemporary genre kings in shooters and MMOs, and to Bungie's own pedigree. That's where expectations are born, and it's in the detailed reviews where we watch them die.
 

Serick

Married Member
I think there are lots of ideas in here that produce a less coherent point than I expected.

First, it is worth separating the #gamergate stuff from arguing over reviews on message boards. Conflating the two seems to mask the real origins of the gamergate nonsense.

More importantly, though, I'm in his age range and I don't know that I am on the same page with the general thesis (bias towards new gameplay experiences). I'm not even entirely sure his examples represent new gameplay experiences. I was really expecting to see something like Tomb Raider or Super Mario 64 pop up. Real genre redefining games. Half Life -> Half Life 2 is a refinement (imo, a poor one) of an existing construct. The same is true of a lot of the examples he listed.

I find that as I get older, I am more interested in varied experiences and not in any one particular subset of experiences new or old. So I don't know that I agree.

I'm also not too sure about his comments on consensus. I don't agree there was ever a period in gaming (or in film or in literature) where it was easy to find or reach a consensus on anything. I don't think it's harder now to find a singular voice (as he says, a singular truth) about Destiny as it was about any game from the 90s.

This seems really romantic.

I definitely had similar sentiments after watching the video. I'm now 30 and hell, I love Destiny. And I feel that I love Destiny because of the varied elements in the game, mmo, loot grinder, shooter, rpg, etc. Even if it hasn't pulled them all off perfectly -yet-.
 

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
Great video. Makes me once again happy that I was there when games got big. Though I don't consider myself (28 years old) to be someone that wants something remarkably new now. I enjoy gaming as much as I ever did.
 
100% Holy Writ Truth, but I gotta add a few things to complement it.

It used to be those jaw-dropping advancements in a facet of gaming (say in cinematics FFVII -> MGS1 -> Vagrant Story) were BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM because the cost angle hadn't grown so much diminishing returns. Only in the largest, costliest leaps (FFVII, Shenmue, WoW) is this noticable from the ground, but it happened all the time there; Konami was right there with money to go and not much needed to spend to get MGS right on the heels of FFVII a year and change later. Quake and Unreal were competing and neither Id nor Epic could rest on their laurels or declare themselves King of the Twitch Competitive FPS.

With Gen 7 and HD development, asset cost ballooned, leading to the devil's bargains of rote design mimicry, accessibility, and gamer bribery, which fought or lured away the player from novelty and revolutionary designs. Those first landmark titles of 2004-2007 (WoW, CoD4, Uncharted 1, Gears 1, etc), didn't gain a temporary victory in a long war with their competion, they gained complete domination. You can't NOT design your shooter to be nearly similar to CoD, CoD got huge sales from being that way and this game cost $40m, you need to get grandma interested in your game to break even
even if following those design queues "to be safe" still leads to an abattoir of death and misery for gaming.

This is why Gen 7 was a misbegotten demon-haunted madhouse of a console generation that actively muffled novelty, innovation, competition, and advancement and why Destiny took so much money to give something actively next-gen from top to bottom: it's extremely costly.

And now, with Destiny's ~$350m sales not being enough to soothe shareholders, those successful example games that existed in Generation 7 may not exist in this generation as we knew them since Generation 6. The money behind it simply doesn't WORK even at that extreme level. We're going much, much smaller. For it to be a shocking revolution at that price tag is asking more than Acti-Blizz and Bungie would or could do.

That is why those of us used to that endless avalanches of advancement from 1983-2006 and/or crave novelty innately hated Gen 7 and pine for that in the smaller titles gaining ground collectively now. Kids? Yeah, they get a good bit of that rolling revolution now, but it's in PC/Mobile. Maybe they'll see it in consoles once the overshadowing AAA behemoths go the way of Coleco. Maybe not, but they do kinda get a taste of what it is, even though it's a different flavor.

Danny continues to be the fucking man.

Danny "The Fucking Man" O'Dwyer shoudl be on his business cards and mailing address.
 

- J - D -

Member
This video should have been longer, with more thoughtful and inclusive examples of the medium's growth to be more cogent, though I can understand the personal history from which his examples were drawn. As it is, his points (while at times truly affecting to me, being similar in age) aren't entirely convincing. Using a gulf in age and experience in this hobby to try to reason the current divide in popular opinion over Destiny isn't entirely on point to me, though it could definitely be one possible factor. I just don't think the verdicts on Destiny are really divergent based on differing viewpoints developed over a span that goes that far back in time. At least not so much that it creates a gulf between someone who is in his late twenties and another who is in his early twenties. If anything, the hubbub over Destiny is better traced back just a few scant years to it's most recent lineage of shooters greater in universal acclaim and reception.

His memories of the gaming community being more unified in thought "back in the day" doesn't quite gel to me. Rifts in thought just weren't so widely and easily propogated. I remember the days of people tearing each other over why game x was better than game y even in the old days of BBS pages.

I appreciate his thoughts on the matter and in some broad sense I generally agree with his conclusion. I'm just not sure I agree with much before it.
 
More importantly, though, I'm in his age range and I don't know that I am on the same page with the general thesis (bias towards new gameplay experiences). I'm not even entirely sure his examples represent new gameplay experiences. I was really expecting to see something like Tomb Raider or Super Mario 64 pop up. Real genre redefining games. Half Life -> Half Life 2 is a refinement (imo, a poor one) of an existing construct. The same is true of a lot of the examples he listed.

Well, from how I took it, he was highlighting the evolution of games, instead of revolutionary games. That is why he contrasted Half Life 1 and 2 as well as 2D GTA and 3D GTA, to something like Gears of War. In a single sequel the former games advanced more visibly and remarkably than Gears of War did in its entire run.

That is also why he highlighted 1998(?) when that huge bounty of diverse game genres released, which contrasts sharply with the release of Destiny, during a time where every big release seems like a shooter.

It is a nostalgic look backwards, and that is exactly Danny's point: tastes have shaped and changed based on what came before, and that is why Destiny is not blowing reviewers' minds. With the perspective of the last twenty+ years, Destiny is not an evolutionary or revolutionary leap, it is a mere step forward. This is not a bad or negative thing; it is simply more difficult to appreciate when, in the back of your mind, you've seen such dramatic steps forward by single releases in the past.

We all have different gaming histories, and as a result we all have different tastes now. Gaming is (and always has been) a big, many-headed hydra, each with different thoughts, tastes, ideas, and approaches... We are all one of those heads, and that's the point.
 

sploatee

formerly Oynox Slider
I don't disagree with anything he said but it's also nothing particularly insightful.

Because it's relevant, I'm 33 and I've been playing games since the 8-bit days. I'm also hopelessly addicted to Destiny.

The thing I agree with most is the unnecessary vitriol amongst people who play videogames. I find it so alienating. It often just feels like a reminder that this is so often a medium geared around teenage boys and I am neither.
 
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