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Final build of Sonic Xtreme found, leaking as we speak

Krejlooc, you seem to be very knowledgeable about Sonic stuff, so let me ask you a question:
In the user manual for the original Genesis Sonic, it mentioned a power-up that appeared on the bonus stages that give you an extra-life (a block with a picture of Sonic's face). But in the game, that power-up never appears.
Do you know if that power-up was from an early version?
This has been bugging me since 1991...
(sorry to go a bit off-topic)

Ferr986 covered it a bit, but yes, it was from an earlier version, an unused idea. It is actually in the game's data, and if placed, functions properly. Christian even remade it, and added Tails and Knuckles variants, to the Special Stage Editor in the 2013 iOS/Android port.

What might blow your mind is that there were more Special Stage tiles like that, although non-functional:

http://info.sonicretro.org/Game_Secrets:Sonic_the_Hedgehog_%2816-bit%29#Special_Stage_Art

Zone 1-6 were probably just decorative indicators of where you came from, but the "W" is still unconfirmed, I believe. Could be a Warp, could be a score doubler, could be a stage construction device that went unused or was removed, it's unknown.

Edit: One other thing I remembered: In the original Genesis Sonic 1, if you used Debug to move outside of the maze and dropped down, I think the stage tried to load junk data, and some of these tiles would appear. the 1up is one of those tiles that could appear, and it did work, although I think it did so silently?
 

Krejlooc

Banned
So, small story, but this is not the first time we've been very close to a Sonic Xtreme release before. Back in 2007, around the time the NiGHTS engine release leaked online, someone came forward with what they claimed to be a playable preview of Sonic Xtreme. Though the Sonic hacking community has a reputation for housing some bright people responsible for stuff like the iOS Sonic remakes and Sonic Megamix, it also has a reputation for housing a lot of ignorant, entitled fans. So naturally, when the guy with the disc started negotiating with people to try and get it released, he got slammed with crazy and ignorant PMs and emails from people going as far as to threaten to kill the guy unless he released the proto, logistics be damned.

Because of that, the current person who is getting all this stuff out is absolutely terrified of the community and I just wanted to stress to anybody paying attention to this topic to remain diligent and respect the boundaries of all involved in this. We've had awesome proto slip through our fingers before because some angry kid shoots off a couple of stupid emails.

Just a general heads up for later on today.
 
Imagine if modern source-control programs existed and were in use back in the old development days, and a backup from that were discovered. You could trace back every check-in to the beginning, make a build of the original prototype, how it was a few months later, whatever you wanted.
 

Timeless

Member
So, small story, but this is not the first time we've been very close to a Sonic Xtreme release before. Back in 2007, around the time the NiGHTS engine release leaked online, someone came forward with what they claimed to be a playable preview of Sonic Xtreme. Though the Sonic hacking community has a reputation for housing some bright people responsible for stuff like the iOS Sonic remakes and Sonic Megamix, it also has a reputation for housing a lot of ignorant, entitled fans. So naturally, when the guy with the disc started negotiating with people to try and get it released, he got slammed with crazy and ignorant PMs and emails from people going as far as to threaten to kill the guy unless he released the proto, logistics be damned.

Because of that, the current person who is getting all this stuff out is absolutely terrified of the community and I just wanted to stress to anybody paying attention to this topic to remain diligent and respect the boundaries of all involved in this. We've had awesome proto slip through our fingers before because some angry kid shoots off a couple of stupid emails.

Just a general heads up for later on today.
I know you're excited, but why post the thread at all if it could generate negative attention?
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I know you're excited, but why post the thread at all if it could generate negative attention?

Because I am confident that nothing can really screw this up this time. My last post wasn't a warning that we could lose this proto, it's more of a call for people paying attention to behave.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Imagine if modern source-control programs existed and were in use back in the old development days, and a backup from that were discovered. You could trace back every check-in to the beginning, make a build of the original prototype, how it was a few months later, whatever you wanted.

while not to the degree you're speaking of, we basically have that for Knuckles Chaotix (and Sonic 3, but that's not as exciting).
 
I don't see any harm in spreading the word of past mishaps. I remember that debacle back in 2007 and it was a big shame a select few could ruin stuff for everybody.

I remember mailing Chris Senn back when I was in College. He's a nice guy, I'm looking forward to seeing more of his work.
 

Komo

Banned
Seriously hoping that all goes well, because Sonic Xtreme is absolutely one of the few cancelled games I really wish came out. It just looked fantastic and really fun. Not a Super Mario 64 'killer' or competitor by any means, but It was its own thing, and I found it to be incredibly unique, imo. I'm sure that if it released it would've done great.
 
So, small story, but this is not the first time we've been very close to a Sonic Xtreme release before. Back in 2007, around the time the NiGHTS engine release leaked online, someone came forward with what they claimed to be a playable preview of Sonic Xtreme. Though the Sonic hacking community has a reputation for housing some bright people responsible for stuff like the iOS Sonic remakes and Sonic Megamix, it also has a reputation for housing a lot of ignorant, entitled fans. So naturally, when the guy with the disc started negotiating with people to try and get it released, he got slammed with crazy and ignorant PMs and emails from people going as far as to threaten to kill the guy unless he released the proto, logistics be damned.

Because of that, the current person who is getting all this stuff out is absolutely terrified of the community and I just wanted to stress to anybody paying attention to this topic to remain diligent and respect the boundaries of all involved in this. We've had awesome proto slip through our fingers before because some angry kid shoots off a couple of stupid emails.

Just a general heads up for later on today.
I think I would have waited until the actual prototype was actually loaded and playable before announcing anything but what done is done.

Anyway, what's the status of this project right now? What timeframe do you expect this to be up and running at?
 
So, small story, but this is not the first time we've been very close to a Sonic Xtreme release before. Back in 2007, around the time the NiGHTS engine release leaked online, someone came forward with what they claimed to be a playable preview of Sonic Xtreme. Though the Sonic hacking community has a reputation for housing some bright people responsible for stuff like the iOS Sonic remakes and Sonic Megamix, it also has a reputation for housing a lot of ignorant, entitled fans. So naturally, when the guy with the disc started negotiating with people to try and get it released, he got slammed with crazy and ignorant PMs and emails from people going as far as to threaten to kill the guy unless he released the proto, logistics be damned.

Because of that, the current person who is getting all this stuff out is absolutely terrified of the community and I just wanted to stress to anybody paying attention to this topic to remain diligent and respect the boundaries of all involved in this. We've had awesome proto slip through our fingers before because some angry kid shoots off a couple of stupid emails.

Just a general heads up for later on today.

that is fucking horrible.
 

kinn

Member
This is an interesting tid-bit too since the original Dreamcast release of SA still has some leftover models from the Saturn version of the game in the Sky Chase sequences:


I didn't know about this. I love hearing things like this about unused data on disks.

Amazing thread and work guys.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I didn't know about this. I love hearing things like this about unused data on disks.

Amazing thread and work guys.

They're not quite unused, though. They're used in sky chase zone.

Pertinent to this topic might be the windy valley prototype level that was found earlier this year. It appears to be the lost act featured in the opening video for sonic adventure.
 
Looking at levels in Sonic Xtreme it seems more creative than Dreamcast and after era.

Remember, as noted, that most of those levels were mockups for screenshots/promo videos. Those levels contain a lot of dead ends/etc because they weren't meant to actually be played at this point in development.
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
This is an absolutely awesome thread.
 
The game is coded in C, but there's a good strong chance the source will never be released to the public, because Ofer doesn't really want it leaked. It's sort of up in the air. I'd be ecstatic if the source was made public, but don't hold your breath. Likely, only a few high ups in the sonic community will get their hands on it out of respect for Ofer.

but the builds are definitely coming and have been backed up and everything.
I'd love to see it on github. But if the man in charge (Ofer) isn't on board, then oh well.

Hell, I'd contribute patches!
 
"Mario who?" :lol
Heh... yeah, '90s advertising was good stuff. :) That reminds me a bit of that Nintendo video where they kidnap a Sony guy and a Sega guy and show them how great Star Fox 64 and the rumble pack are... :)

But yeah, that is the thing that confuses me most about the X-Treme story -- if they were told in March that they had to redo the game into the bosses engine, why so much of what looks like the levels engine in the E3 trailer months later? I don't get it.

Back in 2007, around the time the NiGHTS engine release leaked online,
Once again, unless you've got the source code for that version (do you, or someone?), how do you know it's the NiGHTS engine? Given that they only worked on the NiGHTS engine version for two weeks, it seems unlikely that it'd have gotten that far along. It seems more likely that it's the "bosses" engine converted to do levels... though it could be the NiGHTS engine too, perhaps.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Typing up a longer post to detail what I saw, but long story short right now: Yes, this is real. I saw it, it's real.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
So alright, just a bit of background on this project, it's being worked on by a veteran of the industry, so when he gives estimates as to how long this will take to finally reach people, understand that it's an expert giving you those time frames.

The problem with the release in possession is that it's a series of zip file backups from 1996 along with a clone image of a person's entire development PC. What's going on now is that we're piecing together the environment exactly as the people working on Sonic Xtreme had theirs so that we can build their code. If you're unfamiliar with what a development environment is or how one works, you might want to take a look at my Dreamcast game thread. I have neglected it (sorry, but I haven't forgotten!) so all that is there right now is a tutorial for building a development environment from scratch to build dreamcast games with.

This guy is trying to piece together a Nvidia NV1 development environment the same way, only with infinitely less resources available to him. Even worse, he's jumping into someone's source code that is non-commented and undocumented and only half complete. Parts of the source, for example, expect files to be in exact locations on the computer - which is fine, but it takes time to set up his computer to build like that.

He already has a skeleton build working, by commenting out basically everything he can build an executable that calls the NV1 library and does absolutely nothing. It's going to take a few weeks before we can build a fully functional executable, but the exciting thing is that we have everything possible to do so.

The guy has an NV1 in the mail going to him, along with some saturn development equipment. This is a hobby for us, not a job, so keep in mind that getting this stuff to a state where anybody can play it will take time, but the most important thing is we have this in our possession. It will never be lost again.

Now, onto the specifics of what I got to see - namely the source code. I can confirm with my own two eyes that this is indeed the real deal source and it's crazy. We have 5 builds of this from various states of Ofer's work. Early on, we have a partially completed build where Ofer was in the middle of transferring his work over from a software renderer he built to the actual NV1 hardware, which is where we think we can get the software renderer working again. Everything actually builds from the same source - saturn, PC, and mac - but it's the absolute thinnest abstraction layer you could possibly imagine. Functions like "draw polygon" overloaded with the brunt of the work being done in these sorts of calls, lol.

So, midway through these builds, you can see the source transform into something more dependent on the NV1, and the build options whittle to PC and Saturn, ditching mac, and eventually to PC only. You can evidently get this running on a saturn no problem using a cartdev kit (the dsk images don't contain the actual binary, only the peripheral files to be loaded through the serial port on the saturn) but it runs at like 3 fps. Eventually, the build options whittled down further to just PC.

Now, the craziest part - 4 months after the final build we have from Ofer, we have another build from POV of a never before seen Sonic title for the saturn. We don't think this title has ever been shown off or mentioned before. We don't even know what it looks like yet because we can't build it until the environment is complete. But there is likely at least one more major surprise in this find.

I saw the code for the level editor, it's built right into the engine. The assets folder even includes icons for the level editor we never noticed before, but now suddenly make sense. They do things like map surfaces onto the cubes.

This guy basically wants a buffer between the starving crowd of people and himself, mainly because he does this out of pure love for coding and preserving games. Jollyroger himself is a great guy, sounds passionate in the same ways I am passionate about games and development. He is weary of people getting upset that this release is taking too long and, you know, doing dick 4-chan stuff like finding out his email address and messing with him. So, going forward, Andrew75 and I will be the between guys for him and the community. All releases will go through us and if you have comments or questions, direct them our way. We will be the ones who eventually package and release these files, but not today. This will take a few weeks to get in people's hands, but we definitely want to share.

I have some pictures but I can't share them at the moment because they're mainly of the source code itself. However, if my credibility has ever meant anything, trust me when I say that this is absolutely, 100% real. We finally have Sonic Xtreme, now we just have to prep it for release.
 
We finally have Sonic Xtreme, now we just have to prep it for release.

stop_penis_erect_archer.gif
 

sarcoa

Member
Now, the craziest part - 4 months after the final build we have from Ofer, we have another build from POV of a never before seen Sonic title for the saturn. We don't think this title has ever been shown off or mentioned before. We don't even know what it looks like yet because we can't build it until the environment is complete. But there is likely at least one more major surprise in this find.
holy shit.
 

Tealmann

Member
You can evidently get this running on a saturn no problem using a cartdev kit (the dsk images don't contain the actual binary, only the peripheral files to be loaded through the serial port on the saturn) but it runs at like 3 fps. Eventually, the build options whittled down further to just PC.

Have you gotten it built for Saturn or are you just assuming it was too slow?
 

RK128

Member
An unknown Saturn Sonic? This just gets better and better. Glad to know you'll be handling PR.

A unknown Saturn Sonic tittle? Could it be this; I think it was being developed either alongside Xtreme or a while after it got cancelled.

It could also be the Saturn version of Sonic Adventure (as I recall that was originally going to be on the Saturn but Sonic Team moved the game to the Dreamcast due to the Saturn tanking in the West and wanting to use the stronger hardware of the Dreamcast)...

One more thing, thank you Krejilooc and your team for getting the prototype finally :D; the world can finally see Sonic Xtreme to completion now :'). Good luck getting the game to completion :D!
 

Elija2

Member
A unknown Saturn Sonic tittle? Could it be this; I think it was being developed either alongside Xtreme or a while after it got cancelled.

It could also be the Saturn version of Sonic Adventure (as I recall that was originally going to be on the Saturn but Sonic Team moved the game to the Dreamcast due to the Saturn tanking in the West and wanting to use the stronger hardware of the Dreamcast)...

Wikia page said:
It seems that Yuji Naka did not like this prototype, and so the Sonic Saturn Engine was never used to develop a full Sonic game.

Man, Yuji Naka hates everything!
 

Ty4on

Member
That is amazing! I knew of some of the great stuff the homebrew community had managed to do, but it is really fascinating to see it in action and with a game we have wanted to play for so long!
 

RK128

Member
Man, Yuji Naka hates everything!

You want to know the kicker to this whole story? Chris, one of the main development guys on Xtreme dealt with horrible working conditions when working on this :(; extensive overtime to the point of him and developers moving beds into the development studio just to get more hours out of them.

Not to mention he was over working to the point of almost dying (don't remember what exactly happened to him, but it was reported that doctors told him that if he kept this living condition up, he would have put himself in great health risk....he could have died trying to make this game X()!

....The whole mess of this games development really bothers me; if Sega Japan would have just helped out Sega West during this games development, I think we would have played the game by now :(.
 

kimtish

Neo Member
You want to know the kicker to this whole story? Chris, one of the main development guys on Xtreme dealt with horrible working conditions when working on this :(; extensive overtime to the point of him and developers moving beds into the development studio just to get more hours out of them.

Not to mention he was over working to the point of almost dying (don't remember what exactly happened to him, but it was reported that doctors told him that if he kept this living condition up, he would have put himself in great health risk....he could have died trying to make this game X()!

....The whole mess of this games development really bothers me; if Sega Japan would have just helped out Sega West during this games development, I think we would have played the game by now :(.

"If Sega would have just..." is literally the story of Sega's time in console development.

Missed opportunities, poor foresight, egos and dick swinging.

Breaks my heart. I still believe to this day that Sega Saturn was THE best 5th gen console. Sega was just the worst developer.
 

Uhyve

Member
Now, the craziest part - 4 months after the final build we have from Ofer, we have another build from POV of a never before seen Sonic title for the saturn. We don't think this title has ever been shown off or mentioned before. We don't even know what it looks like yet because we can't build it until the environment is complete. But there is likely at least one more major surprise in this find.
Andrew75 and I will be the between guys for him and the community. All releases will go through us and if you have comments or questions, direct them our way.
Probably a good idea, after the preceding quote, I half want to harass the guy, heh.

Seriously though, I'm super excited right now. I'm probably being alittle overly innocent, but in my experience, the Sonic beta community has been nothing but lovely with me, so I'm hoping that everyone will treat all the players in this leak with the respect they deserve.

PS Andrew75 is probably the best person you could possibly hope to be involved with this leak. Just knowing that he's involved makes me sure that this is happening.
PPS If you're reading this Andrew75: Sorry I couldn't get that SX level exporter working, I got a job and was meaning to get to it, but put it off to the point where it was obviously no longer needed. I feel guilty about that.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Andrew75 has been a good person to know about Sonic Xtreme development in general. Funnily enough, last time I really spoke to him was back when Sonic Xtreme's assets leaked from Senn and we were figuring out the level def stuff.

So it's been like 4 years since we've really worked together, and the last time we did was on the same stuff lol.
 

FyreWulff

Member
This is an interesting tid-bit too since the original Dreamcast release of SA still has some leftover models from the Saturn version of the game in the Sky Chase sequences:

Sonic_Adventure_-_Sky_Chase_Act_1_-_Screenshot_-_3.png


Sonic_Adventure_-_Sky_Chase_-_Screenshot_-_(2).jpg


Early Footage:

SA_Sky_Chase_Transformation_1.png

Wasn't it discovered recently that these assets actually survived all the way into the GameCube DX release?
 

TheOGB

Banned
Now, the craziest part - 4 months after the final build we have from Ofer, we have another build from POV of a never before seen Sonic title for the saturn. We don't think this title has ever been shown off or mentioned before. We don't even know what it looks like yet because we can't build it until the environment is complete. But there is likely at least one more major surprise in this find.
Okay, now that's pretty fuckin cool. Interest in this just went way up.
 
Now, the craziest part - 4 months after the final build we have from Ofer, we have another build from POV of a never before seen Sonic title for the saturn. We don't think this title has ever been shown off or mentioned before. We don't even know what it looks like yet because we can't build it until the environment is complete. But there is likely at least one more major surprise in this find.
Could it be the original Saturn version of Sonic Adventure??

e3nY9BF.gif
 
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