superNESjoe
Member
I want to thank everyone involved in this. Long lost assets and behind the scenes dev mysteries are intoxicating to me, and Sonic X-treme is the king.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final build of Sonic Xtreme found, leaking as we speak
- Thread starter Krejlooc
- Start date
It would actually need running frames.
Oh, I didn't notice there weren't any
I don't think we should get into the specifics of whose this was or how this wound up in JR's hands, but we know exactly why PoV had this source - they were brought in to assist Ofer in the creation of his engine, and early on were working with his code. It slowly evolved into a fork in the project. They had backups going back several months which is why we still have Ofer's work.
In short, this isn't a single build, this is a series of backups letting us step backwards and actually observe how development was going for several months. We can actually watch the revisions made.
Progress!:
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=33545&view=findpost&p=805842
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=33545&view=findpost&p=805842
Okay guys ! Sega Saturn build is up and running ! The level seems to quickly fly around the screen with Sonic, Rings and a Badniks!
The screen was taken in SSF emulator. However when we attempted to run it on Saturn hardware it did not seem to make it past the initial red screen. JR will be debugging it when he gets his Cartdev next week to see why the game stops at that screen. (he can see if it stops for a missing file, or it crashes somewhere)
Just in case you're wondering, there are three versions of the STI source code and two more from POV.
So yes ! after 18 years ... yes 18 long years here it is ! Sonic xtreme for Saturn complete with fisheye ! ( although not really on Saturn lol )
P.S. we tested it on 2 Saturn's with the same result.
Chris Senn did the music in the tech demos that have been released, they were meant to just be conceptual pieces. Apparently Howard Drossin was working on the games actual soundtrack, and I think he had created a few pieces of music for the soundtrack, but those (afaik) have never been leaked.
This is all off the top of my head though, there's so much history with Sonic Xtreme that there's a chance that I'm getting this wrong. It would be super cool if there was some new music in the new leak, but since POV were just porting the code, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have access to any unreleased music.
This is all off the top of my head though, there's so much history with Sonic Xtreme that there's a chance that I'm getting this wrong. It would be super cool if there was some new music in the new leak, but since POV were just porting the code, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have access to any unreleased music.
Hitlersaurus Christ
Banned
Yup, Drossin was the composer. He mentioned in a few interviews that he was pretty sure he still had some of his X-Treme tracks lying around in his attic or something and said he'd be happy to share them, but it seems he never got around to it.
ResidentDante
Member
I stand corrected! Thanks for the info!
Emperor Bohe
Member
yussssss
Whoo boy, I have gotten some flat-out stupid emails and messages (and death threats, seriously) over this stuff (mainly from other boards) so I'd like to take a moment to dispel some notions:
we are not hording the source code. First of all, the source code is neigh useless to the vast, vast, vast majority of people. Why is it not useless in our hands? Because JR has professional experience developing for the Sega Saturn, and as a result has sega saturn development hardware. We understand the need to preserve old games - we, all 3 of us, are active in various video game preservation societies, from arcade board preservation to stuff like this. We have taken steps to ensure the source code isn't going to die on some person's hardware, we have preserved the source. But we will not distribute it. Why? Because the author of the source specifically asked us not to. Now, I get some people are thinking, "if you're already going behind backs to release this stuff in the first place, what's the harm of going against Ofer's wishes?" That is a bad sign of trust to do that. This stuff doesn't operate in a vacuum. Aside from burning bridges with Ofer Alon, who isn't really a bad person to know in general, we would be demonstrating to other people that we are not operating in good faith among developers. This could impact our potential to gain access to future prototypes. So the situation we're faced with - either release a largely useless source code to satiate a bunch of people online who really don't know the situation to begin with at the expense of our future ability to uncover prototypes... or not. The choice is obvious.
We are not interested in "owning" a rare version of Sonic Xtreme. We don't really get any joy out of holding onto something like this. I think especially Andrew75 and I are mostly excited to be the people who are bringing this stuff out to the community, not part of some super secret club or whatever. Which is to say, what we care about most is releasing Sonic Xtreme, not gaining exclusive access to it.
The NV1 SDK, which is being used in this project, would be of no help towards a theoretical sega saturn emulator development. This in particular is weird, I keep getting hit up from people demanding we release the NV1 SDK so that "a real sega saturn emulator can be developed." This is just a gross misunderstanding of the way this tech works. Firstly, the NV1 and Sega Saturn are entirely different beasts. JR joked with me that the most these machines share in common is that they run on electricity. Obviously, they both use quadratic primatives, but that wasn't uncommon in 1996. My Creative 3DO blaster, for example, does the same thing.Quads weren't a unique quirk of the saturn's hardware. Beyond the use of quads as a primitive, the NV1 is radically different from the Saturn. Case in point - the NV1 is a single GPU by itself. When you code for the NV1, you create an NV1 object (nvschedule or whatever) and that handles all communication to the card. It works as a single entity. The Saturn uses dual VDPs to render its graphics, with a pipeline running between them. you are, for all intent and purposes, coding for 2 graphics chips when working with the saturn. The hardware between the NV1 and Saturn is so radically different.
Further, the NV1 SDK we have wasn't part of this leak. This SDK is freely floating around on the internet. Anybody can grab it, it's not something we're holding on to. It's been out there, in the wild, since 1996. And it's useless to Sega Saturn emulation development. And, most importantly, Sega saturn emulators already exist.
Long short of this is, we're 3 people with day jobs, who have spent quite a bit of personal money on this without accepting donations (nor do we wish to), who hold day jobs and have personal lives. Girlfriends, wives, kids, pets, that sort of thing. Additionally, being passionate professionals, we all also have other projects and hobbies that take up our time. Without getting into JR's personal life, Andrew75 alone is working on Project AXSX (of which he's spent several grand of his own money) and I am doing stuff for Half Life 2 VR. So the work we do for this release is being done out of passion and a desire to distribute this to the greater whole because we realize this is worth doing. We're gonna lose money on this endeavor, but it's worth it to us. While accusations of greed honestly doesn't surprise me, given the nature of the internet, please realize that you likely don't have a good grasp of the situation and how much we're personally contributing to get something into everybody's hands for free.
we are not hording the source code. First of all, the source code is neigh useless to the vast, vast, vast majority of people. Why is it not useless in our hands? Because JR has professional experience developing for the Sega Saturn, and as a result has sega saturn development hardware. We understand the need to preserve old games - we, all 3 of us, are active in various video game preservation societies, from arcade board preservation to stuff like this. We have taken steps to ensure the source code isn't going to die on some person's hardware, we have preserved the source. But we will not distribute it. Why? Because the author of the source specifically asked us not to. Now, I get some people are thinking, "if you're already going behind backs to release this stuff in the first place, what's the harm of going against Ofer's wishes?" That is a bad sign of trust to do that. This stuff doesn't operate in a vacuum. Aside from burning bridges with Ofer Alon, who isn't really a bad person to know in general, we would be demonstrating to other people that we are not operating in good faith among developers. This could impact our potential to gain access to future prototypes. So the situation we're faced with - either release a largely useless source code to satiate a bunch of people online who really don't know the situation to begin with at the expense of our future ability to uncover prototypes... or not. The choice is obvious.
We are not interested in "owning" a rare version of Sonic Xtreme. We don't really get any joy out of holding onto something like this. I think especially Andrew75 and I are mostly excited to be the people who are bringing this stuff out to the community, not part of some super secret club or whatever. Which is to say, what we care about most is releasing Sonic Xtreme, not gaining exclusive access to it.
The NV1 SDK, which is being used in this project, would be of no help towards a theoretical sega saturn emulator development. This in particular is weird, I keep getting hit up from people demanding we release the NV1 SDK so that "a real sega saturn emulator can be developed." This is just a gross misunderstanding of the way this tech works. Firstly, the NV1 and Sega Saturn are entirely different beasts. JR joked with me that the most these machines share in common is that they run on electricity. Obviously, they both use quadratic primatives, but that wasn't uncommon in 1996. My Creative 3DO blaster, for example, does the same thing.Quads weren't a unique quirk of the saturn's hardware. Beyond the use of quads as a primitive, the NV1 is radically different from the Saturn. Case in point - the NV1 is a single GPU by itself. When you code for the NV1, you create an NV1 object (nvschedule or whatever) and that handles all communication to the card. It works as a single entity. The Saturn uses dual VDPs to render its graphics, with a pipeline running between them. you are, for all intent and purposes, coding for 2 graphics chips when working with the saturn. The hardware between the NV1 and Saturn is so radically different.
Further, the NV1 SDK we have wasn't part of this leak. This SDK is freely floating around on the internet. Anybody can grab it, it's not something we're holding on to. It's been out there, in the wild, since 1996. And it's useless to Sega Saturn emulation development. And, most importantly, Sega saturn emulators already exist.
Long short of this is, we're 3 people with day jobs, who have spent quite a bit of personal money on this without accepting donations (nor do we wish to), who hold day jobs and have personal lives. Girlfriends, wives, kids, pets, that sort of thing. Additionally, being passionate professionals, we all also have other projects and hobbies that take up our time. Without getting into JR's personal life, Andrew75 alone is working on Project AXSX (of which he's spent several grand of his own money) and I am doing stuff for Half Life 2 VR. So the work we do for this release is being done out of passion and a desire to distribute this to the greater whole because we realize this is worth doing. We're gonna lose money on this endeavor, but it's worth it to us. While accusations of greed honestly doesn't surprise me, given the nature of the internet, please realize that you likely don't have a good grasp of the situation and how much we're personally contributing to get something into everybody's hands for free.
Laevateinn
Member
This is mostly unrelated but it would be pretty neat if there was a library or resource like Kallistios that we could use to make homebrew Saturn games.
This exists, its called sega saturn orbit. It would not help in this case, we need sctual saturn dev hardware. Example: the current saturn build crashes on real hardware but runs under emulation. JR is using a cartdev to step through the execution to see what causes the crash. That is more than just a programming environment, its hardware.
Laevateinn
Member
I had no idea this existed. You are a hero.
SerTapTap
Member
Eesh, some people are disgusting. Keep up the awesome work
This. If things are getting out of hand just keep quiet for a while.
Although honestly, seeing that shot of the Saturn version of the game is amazing.
Sanic fanbase.
I know that feel
You have my condolences.
(wait till you start getting the offers to draw you as furry art)
brickwalker0
Member
Yup, this thread went up way too early.
I like seeing the progress and glad it was announced so I can track it in real time, it's fun! Unfortunately, there's always impatient idiots on the Internet... It always seems to be double when it involves unreleased beta.
SonicXtreme
Member
I approve of this topic
It's not even really Sonic fans, it's people who are deeply into prototype collecting and hacking. Like, I get precisely why they want the source code to be released, were there no extenuating circumstances we'd love to release it. This is useful stuff for an inquisitive mind. Getting the actual built binary into people's hands is much more important, however, given that so very few people would have the skillset to build this into an executable in the first place, and even less would have the time or motivation to do it. Being able to build this source is not a normal skill, JR is a pretty specific dude with pretty specific interests. I don't think many people realize how lucky everybody is that he wound up with the source to begin with. That this is actually going to be released is an amazing, incredible stroke of luck.
So I don't have to worry about furry art, but I do have to put up with amusing rage emails.
I still stand by making this thread, because I wanted this process, what is going on right now, to happen. I think this stuff is fascinating, and I know many people do as well. This is the closing chapter to a pretty interesting story, and considering how much of Xtreme is out there to the public already, I feel the final moments before release should be documented out in the open. I mean, do people honestly not want to know the process of getting this from source to executable, and what it entailed? I get the wait can be killer, but I think the process is the best part.
superNESjoe
Member
I don't understand why anybody would be upset with you or threaten you over this. Seriously.
You shoulda replied that if you die, the secret to unlocking your hard drives die with you.
It's like one of them spy action movies.
Then when you blow up their base you don't look at the explosion
For many interested in this, it's not about playing Sonic Xtreme, it's about game hacking. That the source code exists and is in someone's hands but won't be released is like a magician not revealing his secrets to an eager student. I get it, I sympathize. Our hands are really pretty tied when it comes to releasing the source, trust us.
As with anything, you always have a few people who take it to the extreme. That's what these rage bursts are. I see a lot of other people who are just pithy on forums I frequent. The decision not to release the source wasn't taken lightly, but many people still resent that we've decided to honor Ofer's wishes.
The truth is, if I die, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
superNESjoe
Member
Right, and your post further up really wrapped everything up nicely. I just never understand why people get so vile towards each other in these situations. The end game is that we get a more realized version of Xtreme than ever before, and an amazingly deep look into its fascinating development. Just take that for what it is and chill out.
Great job to all of you, can't wait to see more.
Yes, if one is knowledgeable in Saturn programming, you could complete this project. This is the work they were doing on the game, as it was in development. Part of the source is for an in-engine level and object editor.
The source code itself gives pretty good insight into how to code for the saturn in general, and this is a pretty competent 3D engine for the saturn that would be a cool base for people to use as a skeleton for homebrew games.
Besides, this is the sonic community. people disassembled the original Sega Genesis binaries, then went through line by line and cataloged and commented the calls, and now, with the source code for the classic games in hand, make things like Sonic Megamix that runs on real hardware. People would likely do crazy things if they had this source. Like I said, we get it.
So, uh. What exactly is stopping the source code from being released exactly? I'm sorry if this has been asked a dozen or so times.
The difference between Megamix and this, though, is that Megamix had a template (multiple, actually) to follow and iterate on.
Creating a playable game out of this is much more akin to making a game, rather than making a romhack/mod/what-have-you. How does progression between levels work? What's the overall aesthetic of the game? How do all the final art/sound assets stay consistent? What kind of difficulty curve is acceptable?
Those are all things that a typical 2D project doesn't really need to worry about as much. Even if you branch out from 'the norm', the fact is there was a norm for you to differentiate from in the first place. Xtreme is mechanically different enough that a lot of precedents from the 2D games don't apply, and the non-finalized/demo/meant-for-screenshots levels are just about as useful a base to work off of as the unfinished levels in Sonic 2. (Maybe Andrew can correct me on this though, as my knowledge of what exists and in what stages of completion for Xtreme probably aren't anywhere near accurate)
Creating a playable game out of this is much more akin to making a game, rather than making a romhack/mod/what-have-you. How does progression between levels work? What's the overall aesthetic of the game? How do all the final art/sound assets stay consistent? What kind of difficulty curve is acceptable?
Those are all things that a typical 2D project doesn't really need to worry about as much. Even if you branch out from 'the norm', the fact is there was a norm for you to differentiate from in the first place. Xtreme is mechanically different enough that a lot of precedents from the 2D games don't apply, and the non-finalized/demo/meant-for-screenshots levels are just about as useful a base to work off of as the unfinished levels in Sonic 2. (Maybe Andrew can correct me on this though, as my knowledge of what exists and in what stages of completion for Xtreme probably aren't anywhere near accurate)
Original author has requested it not be released.
The person who wrote it specifically asked us not to. Every other aspect of Sonic Xtreme's development has been so incredibly open, beyond what one would reasonably expect, that it would be a colossal dick move to release the one thing they asked us not to. We know more about Sonic Xtreme than virtually any other cancelled game ever because of how open the developers have been with us. They've released everything else - levels, assets, concept art, music, story boards, etc - just not the source. One of the developers, Chris Senn, weighed in yesterday and said he's happy we're releasing an executable for this and supports our endeavors.
riskVSreward
Member
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for the work! I love prototypes and unreleased games, repros and things of that nature so I think this is awesome. I'm more of an NES proto guy, but Saturn holds a soft spot in my heart and I love when people come together to make new experiences for old hardware, just something charming about it.
Thanks again, can't wait to be able to pop it in my Saturn and go nuts!
Thanks again, can't wait to be able to pop it in my Saturn and go nuts!
No, no real stages exist, and Andrew and I were talking about this the other day. So much of what makes a platformer is the levels themselves - a game can have a competent engine, but unless the level design is good, it'll still be a shitty game. Which is why I'm certain Sonic Xtreme, as is, is terrible - because the levels really suck.
What defines good level design is heavily dependent on the engine and flow of the game itself. The sort of questions you asked are precisely how auteurial influence exhibit within any game, it's what makes a Shigeru Miyamoto game a Shigeru Miyamoto game. That said, the Sonic Community is certainly home to enough people with the ability to complete and build a game free of influence, as it's home to many professional and amateur game developers in the first place. I am dead certain at least a few individuals would take a stab at creating their vision of what Sonic Xtreme should have been, if not only because Andrew75 is doing that himself already.
What sort of level design do I think xtreme should exhibit? Several videos and parts of level have a forward flowing design down tight corridors. The primary translation is along the Z-Axis, with pits and items to collect hugging adjacent walls at angles so that Sonic could ramp up them as he ran forward. In practice, this emulated the Sonic 2 and Knuckles Chaotix special stages, and I feel that's generally how the moment to moment gameplay in Xtreme should have worked, with these pieces giving way to moments of horizontal side-scrolling platforming segments and, in instances, wide open areas used sparingly.
In short, something much more like Sonic Generations or perhaps Mario 3D World than Mario 64. I'll let Andrew75 give his own take on what good level design for Sonic Xtreme would have been, as I don't want to speak for him, but he mentioned Mario 3D World to me as well, so I think we're generally on the same page.
Chris is a great person. Had some interaction with him on the original attempt at Project S in 2006.
All well and good. I'm basically actually really interested to see what comes out of this, as historically there hasn't been any real set of levels made from scratch for a 3D Sonic fan-game (or mod, see: Generations sans level ports) due to the magnitude more resources required compared to (fake)16-bit tiles. On the other hand, with an in-engine level editor and the fact that the engine is still more tiles (albeit 3D) than it is freeform polygons that it's much more within the realm of possibility for hobbyists (And I mean that in the context of amount of time available to devote, not ability/talent) to make something good and of decent length.
jconsolmagno
Member
Just want to give you thanks for leaking anything that has already been and will be to your efforts. A project I was interested in since my first Sega console, which was a Dreamcast on 9/9/99, only one of my friends had a Saturn, so it was Playstation/N64 for me until a Funcoland sale years later.
I need some clarifications regarding this exciting news, are we getting a PC build in the near future, or the Saturn build?
I would love to try this on my PC ever since I encountered Sonic Retro's wiki page about Xtreme
We're going to build and release everything. Several PC builds, several Saturn builds.
I couldn't speak for his reasons, whatever they may be.
So some more information about the saturn build. It came to be because JR has built together a toolchain to build him ISOs from the source, previously it was building DSK images that didn't contain the binary at all, so they couldn't be mounted in any way.
As for the actual demo itself, the build is problematic. The demo begins by displaying a red screen for several moments, before panning the camera over the level in a loop, and by pressing start, the camera moves in on sonic. At this point, pressing the L and R triggers changes the world color from blue to red. However, you cannot move Sonic at all. This means the game is correctly polling the controller, but we don't know how to move Sonic yet. One theory is that none of the emulators have analog stick support, and maybe Sonic was controlled with the analog stick. So that might be why we can't progress.
However, it is also likely that the problem is an emulator error. It runs in various states across various emulators. When burned using the built-in Windows ISO burner, it will run on Yabause, albeit incorrectly. Pressing start doesn't work on the controller. If one uses imgburn to burn the ISO, it'll boot on SSF, where it exhibits the behavior above. However, if one uses the Windows ISO Burner, it won't boot in SSF at all.
Finally, on real hardware, it hangs at the red screen. The thought is that it's hanging while looking for some file that may be in the wrong location on the disc and hence isn't booting. That could hopefully be a quick fix. Once JR gets his cartdev going, he can step through execution and figure out exactly what file the red screen is hanging on when trying to load, to figure out what's wrong.
As for the actual demo itself, the build is problematic. The demo begins by displaying a red screen for several moments, before panning the camera over the level in a loop, and by pressing start, the camera moves in on sonic. At this point, pressing the L and R triggers changes the world color from blue to red. However, you cannot move Sonic at all. This means the game is correctly polling the controller, but we don't know how to move Sonic yet. One theory is that none of the emulators have analog stick support, and maybe Sonic was controlled with the analog stick. So that might be why we can't progress.
However, it is also likely that the problem is an emulator error. It runs in various states across various emulators. When burned using the built-in Windows ISO burner, it will run on Yabause, albeit incorrectly. Pressing start doesn't work on the controller. If one uses imgburn to burn the ISO, it'll boot on SSF, where it exhibits the behavior above. However, if one uses the Windows ISO Burner, it won't boot in SSF at all.
Finally, on real hardware, it hangs at the red screen. The thought is that it's hanging while looking for some file that may be in the wrong location on the disc and hence isn't booting. That could hopefully be a quick fix. Once JR gets his cartdev going, he can step through execution and figure out exactly what file the red screen is hanging on when trying to load, to figure out what's wrong.
You've got to be kidding me! What the hell is wrong with people?!
AzureSkies
Member
Retro delivers yet again, used to frequent there quite often in the past and I really love what you guys are doing. I know how passionate Andrew75 is for Xtreme with AXSX, so this is definitely in good hands.
Keep up the work guys!
Keep up the work guys!
My NV1 Windows 95 build. It's by pure happy coincidence that I have this machine, too. I built it about a year ago specifically to collect Sega PC games.
That is where Sonic Xtreme will finally come back to life.
Sounds like you've already got a solution in hand, but I was thinking you could probably find an old version of VNC to run on that machine for remote development purposes.
Could the release of this build, and/or perhaps showing the source to a few select persons, actually help with the development of Saturn emulators and improve accuracy? A correct Saturn emulator should freeze like the real one?
Tangential question: Has anyone ever spoken to the mysterious SSF author?
petethepanda
Member
This is too cool. Thanks for keeping us updated, love following along with the process.
Andrew75 said:When Y controller key is pressed. Its actually an RGB overlay, instead of red. I was kind of out of it when I was describing this to Cooljerk last night. The x key makes the level vanish. to me this looks like a Visual test to see the frame rate when the level is on or offscreen. But yeah with the demo as it is right now, it could be interpreted in so many ways with current compiled code. I think we should hold off on assuming what the level's purpose is for until we get a final build from Jollyroger.
A few sonic websites are already spinning rumors out of control and screwing up facts with assumptions . I think this is a real nightmare ! There is so much damage that it will be hard to set things strait now. ( some people are saying this is only POV build for example. You guys ! We also have STI builds as well, the Saturn test here is actually a STI build because its Ofer's code running on Sega Saturn. This build has nothing to do with POV besides the fact that it was passed to POV , perhaps meant as a potential starting point or reference for Point of view to use.
Also as I posted before there are 3 sti builds and 2 POV builds. We have no idea what are in the POV builds at the moment.
And from the looks of the def files , it does not appear at this point in time that we may not have the latest STI builds. Looking at the assets it looks as STI passed some older builds of the engine over to STI , They appear older without the cool expanding paths. but who knows that surface in the future.
Anyhow
This is also what the screen looks like when Sonic is centered on screen as described above by Cooljerk. (
the camera does not zoom in on sonic or anything of the like)
.
Similar threads
- Poll