The only thing those comparison pics have done was confuse me on which picture was the real thing. Rockstar is truly magnificent.
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Is Rockstar the best in world building/design?
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
The only thing those comparison pics have done was confuse me on which picture was the real thing. Rockstar is truly magnificent.
Lion Heart
Banned
KZ ShadowFall has sublime world building, with a completely unique setting from scratch, imaginative architecture and a launch game no less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83fRJUrZ1_A
I gotta replay this game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83fRJUrZ1_A
I gotta replay this game.
Well, there were words accompanying those pics...
KZ ShadowFall has sublime world building, with a completely unique setting from scratch, imaginative architecture and a launch game no less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83fRJUrZ1_A
I gotta replay this game.
Agreed (despite Shadow Fall being terrible). Even beyond that the Vektan/Helghan conflict is credible. There's a texture to that world that is fabricated yet believable. The Helghan housing on Vekta makes sense; it's cramped and cheap looking. It tells the story of an entire planet being made refugees.
It's amazing world building. Of course it could never compete with GTA V detail-wise, but it is a place created for a game that feels believable.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
They're tops at world design because they spend years and millions more than others, including I think far more on-location photo research. They spent about 100 days in LA for GTA V, IIRC. It's almost underappreciated how unique and IRL-copied much of GTA V is -- sort of just flies under the radar. But if you take the time to explore all the different buildings -- and sadly they never gave enough of a gameplay reason to do so -- it's pretty impressive how unique and detailed most of the buildings are.
I wrote this a while ago to show research by GTAForum user Wayne Kerr that illustrates how much of GTA V's LS is based on LA.
I'm not sure if I'd put anyone above Rockstar... Blizzard has perhaps, artistically and for it's time, the most beautifully landscaped world. It has inane practical design, though. It would never actually be a practical function. Size aside, I thought the recent Deus Ex was tremedeous, but the scope is rather small and feels more like level design that captures a sense of 'being a part of a world' rather than actual world design.
Warhammer Online is a title I've almost never seen mentioned in this regard, or almost any regard on gaf, but I genuinely think it's Dwarf vs Greenskin area is on par with World of Warcraft's artistic world design... and is even better than most of its expansion areas, save for maybe Northrend and the starting area of Outland. WAR's mountains and outposts, in a very so-much-compact-detail with a lot of use of elevation/height in a sort of Warhammer/White Dwarf diorama, sort of way, is some of the painting-esque fantasy world design around. And, somewhat at least, more logical and practical than WoW -- though neither bordering on Rockstar's GTA V.
Edit: Just saw that GTAist reply/link, and it's a pretty awesome example, a better and more clear one, too, of why I'd say Rockstar is a safe choice.
I wrote this a while ago to show research by GTAForum user Wayne Kerr that illustrates how much of GTA V's LS is based on LA.
Regardless of how many of them are exact or just similar, just being similar alone really shows how realistic and believable their world design is. I mean, I wouldn't quite say LS was designed by a civic engineer, but when most open world games have the civic logic of a toddler, GTA V is rather well done. And not just the civic layout, but especially believable (and practical) architecture, et cetera, which that quoted reply focuses on more.KyanMehwulfe said:(from this original reply)
http://gtaforums.com/topic/491242-mapping-los-santos-buildinglandmark-analysis/page-866
http://gtaforums.com/topic/491242-mapping-los-santos-buildinglandmark-analysis/page-865
(Huge thanks to GTAF and especially Wayne Kerr his work find these is amazing)
FOR REFERENCE, pictures of in real life (IRL) Los Angeles are always first, then in-game Los Santos GTA are second.
(the top floor windows especially)
(even in examples that are stretching it at least, it shows how believable and civic-ly logical the architecture is)
(they're not exact clones but Rockstar did say they spent 100 days photographing LA to base all their buildings on, and you seen that in almost every building)
(The art at least looks believable; as if designed by an architecture, not a game designer with no concept of how cities or buildings are logically actually made)
(there's lots of obvious ones, too, like downtown LA and Shallow Pond, Hollywood, or Venice Beach being almost exact copies in LS)
(this apartment is very close to Venice Beach IRL and very close to Vespucci Beach in-game)
(this one may be stretching the coincidence but there is a motel with palm trees conveniently right beside it...)
(this could be coincidence too but this building is RIGHT NEXT to the above hotel... you can find very close by on Google Maps)
(most of GTA V's streets are also inspired by LA... which, thankfully, means their layout is much more believable than, say, GTA SA where the streets felt amazing to explore but were an illogical unbelievable mess of a mess)
(a lot of these have tweaks but you can see the similar frames, windows, etc)
(both selling tacos, too lol)
(this is the same one but it's run down, and you can even see the broken sign!)
(different windows but you can see both movie have similar frames, especially the 2nd floor indented roof)
(similar windows, again)
(same pillars and same storage area)
(obvious...)
(see the windows on the 2nd floor, and also the 2 opens on the right with the 1 window in the center piece)
(this one is stretching it.... but look at the how the 2 overhanging pieces don't exactly match up... the right one is flatter and sticks out more, and the left one is bigger and isn't 'in sync' with the other. and the vertical lines in the wall)
(not super close but look at the 'gate' in the door, the same arches, half circles, the golden pillar detail, etc)
(similarly 2nd floor windows and arches)
(more similarities)
(these are 2 good examples of ones that are not very close but clearly show that all the architecture is still realistic... the way arches are shaped, pillars are placed... they're done so in a sound and logical way)
(also the window frames often are similar to IRL)
(this one is cool... similar construction projects, AND the buildings the architecture company is in looks similar, too! the second pic is where IRL and IG the architecture company is)
(more similarly windows, frames)
(similar gate, overhead, advertising, etc)
(IRL on left, GTA V on right)
(also, there's a little bit of Rockstar San Diego, Rockstar Toronto, and Rockstar Vancouver in GTA V)
I'm not sure if I'd put anyone above Rockstar... Blizzard has perhaps, artistically and for it's time, the most beautifully landscaped world. It has inane practical design, though. It would never actually be a practical function. Size aside, I thought the recent Deus Ex was tremedeous, but the scope is rather small and feels more like level design that captures a sense of 'being a part of a world' rather than actual world design.
Warhammer Online is a title I've almost never seen mentioned in this regard, or almost any regard on gaf, but I genuinely think it's Dwarf vs Greenskin area is on par with World of Warcraft's artistic world design... and is even better than most of its expansion areas, save for maybe Northrend and the starting area of Outland. WAR's mountains and outposts, in a very so-much-compact-detail with a lot of use of elevation/height in a sort of Warhammer/White Dwarf diorama, sort of way, is some of the painting-esque fantasy world design around. And, somewhat at least, more logical and practical than WoW -- though neither bordering on Rockstar's GTA V.
Edit: Just saw that GTAist reply/link, and it's a pretty awesome example, a better and more clear one, too, of why I'd say Rockstar is a safe choice.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Paris from Assassins Creed Unity felt quite alive and should be in that list of most impressive worlds.
clutch.as.it.gets.
Member
disappeared
Banned
If we're talking strictly open-worldd games, then yes, Rockstar has essentially written the book on world-building. But that does have a lot to do with what HK47 mentioned in regards to budgets and creative control.
If it's just world-building in general, then I'd venture to argue that the guys at studios like Black Isle/Obsidian (Fallout), Arkane (Dishonored), Team Silent (Silent Hill), and Looking Glass/Irrational (System Shock 2, Bioshock) have all successfull crafted dense and thought-provoking little universes which certainly give Rockstar, with their typically Americana-inspired locations, a run for their money.
Also keep in mind that the aforementioned studios have all worked on their games at a fraction of Rockstar's budget(s).
If it's just world-building in general, then I'd venture to argue that the guys at studios like Black Isle/Obsidian (Fallout), Arkane (Dishonored), Team Silent (Silent Hill), and Looking Glass/Irrational (System Shock 2, Bioshock) have all successfull crafted dense and thought-provoking little universes which certainly give Rockstar, with their typically Americana-inspired locations, a run for their money.
Also keep in mind that the aforementioned studios have all worked on their games at a fraction of Rockstar's budget(s).
Skyrim is just like any other Lord of the Rings shoot off you see out there.Absolutely.
(and more)
In terms of the world feeling more real than others that's largely a result of their budget and adhering closely to their real-world influence. The kind of detail in GTA V is only possible because of that. It feels like a real world largely because it is.
But creating a place like Skyrim, to me, is a far greater feat of world building and design.
If you're gonna downplay GTAV for having LA as a direct reference, Skyrim plays it pretty fucking straight compared to the mountain of fantasy art you have out there.
On top of that, while Los Santos usually feels like a real, living city, Skyrim is pretty silly in this regard, with places that should come off as prominent human towns like Whiterun, look and feel like an outpost with a couple of houses.
Moreover, it's not like Whiterun is directly lifted from Jackson's rendition of Edoras or anything
As i said, R* ability in creating believable environments is surely related to having a huge budget, but also with a great expertise and artistry they have in that regard.
It's probably their best quality, actually.
StevePharma
Member
GTA IV and V featured the "dates" with the NPCs,in which you could get to know them better and explore the world. That was a step in the right direction.
If Morpheus and/or Oculus will support GTA V first person officially or unofficially, I am on it day one. It would take taxi's and walk around neigborhoods just to soak up that city feeling. Especially since the ambient/environmental soundscape is so good and believable.
Rockstar truly is one of my favorite developers.
Skyrim is just like any other Lord of the Rings shoot off you see out there.
If you're gonna downplay GTAV for having LA as a direct reference, Skyrim plays it pretty fucking straight compared to the mountain of fantasy art you have out there.
On top of that, while Los Santos usually feels like a real, living city, Skyrim is pretty silly in this regard, with places that should come off as prominent human towns like Whiterun, look and feel like an outpost with a couple of houses.
Moreover, it's not like Whiterun is directly lifted from Jackson's rendition of Edoras or anything
Imagine he said Morrowind instead.
Morrowind is great and has a very unique look, though it's a hard comparison, since that and GTAV are so far apart.
But listen, i get the argument that creating a fantasy world and recreating a real place aren't the same thing, i'm saying though that both have their specific challenges.
In a fantasy setting you may have to come up with shit from the ground up (usually inspired by the real world, though, or heavily lifted from genre tropes) but on the other hand the consumer doesn't expect as much a level of accuracy and depth as the recreation of a real place.
When you recreate a real location, you may have a lot of direct references to look for, but you'll also encounter a much higher level of scrutiny, because every little imperfection becomes immediately noticeable, when looking at something familiar.
And it's also gonna be harder to give that place a strong sense of personality (which R* worlds do not lack).
So pick your poison.
Downplaying Rockstar's world building because it uses direct influence from real locations seems really silly to me. Especially when using it alongside praise for Skryim, as if there isn't immense Nordic influence throughout almost every facet of its design.
And a blank check and long development time doesn't magically churn out a great product. An equally silly notion. It sure as hell helps, but to downplay their accomplishments on that basis is absurd. It purposefully dances around what that dev does with its pedestrians, its weather, its soundtrack choice, its wildlife, its physics, its sound, its random events, etc.
If anything, all these comparison photos actually help the arguments claiming that they're one of the best in the business. At least in my opinion, which is all this discussion comes down to.
And a blank check and long development time doesn't magically churn out a great product. An equally silly notion. It sure as hell helps, but to downplay their accomplishments on that basis is absurd. It purposefully dances around what that dev does with its pedestrians, its weather, its soundtrack choice, its wildlife, its physics, its sound, its random events, etc.
If anything, all these comparison photos actually help the arguments claiming that they're one of the best in the business. At least in my opinion, which is all this discussion comes down to.
RS has some Italian Renaissance style artists working for them. Each game has drastic improvements. They spent a lot more time on the fine detail for current gen. The best parts of GTA V are exploring the buildings. I would like their next game to focus even more on interior designs. Like imagine if almost every building on the block could be explored. You could loot homes like in Elder Scrolls or something.
Saint of Killers
Member
They're always very impressive in terms of scale and being technical marvels, but I have also always found their worlds, the modern GTA ones especially so, to be lacking in terms of diversion/general interest. To put it bluntly; they're dull. So much so that I almost always find myself using the fast travel feature in their open world games, whereas in something like the Yakuza series of games I make a point of walking everywhere even though I have fast travel at my disposal. I still really enjoy most of Rockstar's games, though.
Skyrim is just like any other Lord of the Rings shoot off you see out there.
If you're gonna downplay GTAV for having LA as a direct reference, Skyrim plays it pretty fucking straight compared to the mountain of fantasy art you have out there.
On top of that, while Los Santos usually feels like a real, living city, Skyrim is pretty silly in this regard, with places that should come off as prominent human towns like Whiterun, look and feel like an outpost with a couple of houses.
Moreover, it's not like Whiterun is directly lifted from Jackson's rendition of Edoras or anything
As i said, R* ability in creating believable environments is surely related to having a huge budget, but also with a great expertise and artistry they have in that regard.
It's probably their best quality, actually.
When I mentioned Skyrim I was thinking only of the Dwemer. Yes, it is otherwise quite uninspired. But yeah, there are better examples.
eyeball_kid
Member
Morrowind felt more immersive to me as a world than any of the GTA games. It's one thing to make something architecturally believable, but it's quite another to do that from scratch, and provide something detailed and rich that comes only from imagination and not thousands of photographs.
PSYGN
Member
I'd actually argue that copying a real city/area to the detail GTA:V has done is more work because you have to study all the different regions and their culture and blend it all as seamlessly as possible into one world, whereas with original worlds the artist doesn't have to be as grounded to reality.
Yeah, I should be shocked people are using that...but it is GAF so...
R* could create a wholly original fantasy world bigger than Middle Earth and some would still try to downplay it. Just how it is.
LA? NY? Miami? These places and their respective regional quirks are all in the public consciousness of Americans. You hardly need to do an intensive in-situ ethnography to "understand" these cities.
EDIT: Well I made myself look like an sss.
Well GTA is made in Scotland. So technically it is foreign :lol
GTA isn't developed by Americans.
They are by far the best when it comes to open world game design. GTA V did not have an acre of wasted space in it. There are several developers that I would put on par when it comes to linear game world design. I am really interested to see what Rockstar does using the newer hardware as a footprint.
SixMachine
Member
I think GTA is a good game and the world is well made but I'm not personally that interested in the world. It's just that I'm not into realistic settings as much because I personally have seen cityscapes and super highways, and the effort Rockstar puts into it makes it look nice. But I really like landscapes and settings that are unique and look like someone's imagination come to life. Even X has graphics that aren't too hot, the scale of it and how the mechs are flying throughout it to give a nice view really makes it unique, and something like I could never experience in my lifetime. I really do wish there was a good open world sci-fi fantasy space game (there are different types of space sci-fi but I would love something like Cobra or even Cowboy Bebop) , but that is a whole different topic.
Netherscourge
Banned
I think Rockstar is the best videogame developer in the world.
Blizzard is a close second. (WoW is still amazing 10 years later)
Bioware and Bethesda are tied for third.
Ubisoft is very good too. Gets lot of crap for DLC and preorder segmentation, but it's built some amazing worlds.
Blizzard is a close second. (WoW is still amazing 10 years later)
Bioware and Bethesda are tied for third.
Ubisoft is very good too. Gets lot of crap for DLC and preorder segmentation, but it's built some amazing worlds.
KZ ShadowFall has sublime world building, with a completely unique setting from scratch, imaginative architecture and a launch game no less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83fRJUrZ1_A
I gotta replay this game.
Game looked fan.fuckin.tastic. HOWEVER! The story was absolute trash. AB.SO.LUTE!
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
PC version, perhaps?!?!?!?
eso76
Member
Gtav Los Santos is incredible.
You never have the impression the game world is artificial or just a bunch of pre made blocks thrown around and arranged in different ways. GTAV world doesn't look or feel like it was built with tools and editors, absolutely everything on the map looks hand placed and you'd say every square meter is unique and carefully crafted. In fact I don't think I've seen reused buildings assets anywhere.
Everything is so logical and believable you develop a real sense of direction and being there.
But we have never seen RS at work on fictional / fantasy worlds..
You never have the impression the game world is artificial or just a bunch of pre made blocks thrown around and arranged in different ways. GTAV world doesn't look or feel like it was built with tools and editors, absolutely everything on the map looks hand placed and you'd say every square meter is unique and carefully crafted. In fact I don't think I've seen reused buildings assets anywhere.
Everything is so logical and believable you develop a real sense of direction and being there.
But we have never seen RS at work on fictional / fantasy worlds..
I would say Bethesda are tops. The Elder Scrolls games in particular really feel like a place you can live in and explore, rather than a playground to wreck havoc and complete assigned tasks in.
Bethesda's games are the only open world games where I don't just chase icons on a map but actually explore the world. I think to 100% one of their games with a single character would be to miss the point of it. The main quest never has to intrude into being an adventurer in Tamriel.
Bethesda's games are the only open world games where I don't just chase icons on a map but actually explore the world. I think to 100% one of their games with a single character would be to miss the point of it. The main quest never has to intrude into being an adventurer in Tamriel.
Undoubtedly. GTA V is the best open world game I have ever played, mostly because of its open world. The story and characters aren't the best in the series but the game world itself is so diverse and well constructed that I often find myself messing around in it for hours with friends in Online. Even though the world is big, I don't find any areas to be barren or lacking in detail, every part of the map has somewhere to go.
I was never on the hype train for GTA V (huge regret actually), but just before release, because everyone was talking about it, I caved and bought it for 360. I was absolutely floored by it, and it has remained as one of my most played games to this day. Bought the PS4 version the day it released, and I would happily buy the PC version if or when I build a PC capable of running it.
I was never on the hype train for GTA V (huge regret actually), but just before release, because everyone was talking about it, I caved and bought it for 360. I was absolutely floored by it, and it has remained as one of my most played games to this day. Bought the PS4 version the day it released, and I would happily buy the PC version if or when I build a PC capable of running it.
Fantasy worlds hardly get points for imagination, honestly. A barely serviceable fantasy world (which is what most of them are) is somehow better than an immaculately realised urban setting? You guys are boring.
The only fantasy setting that would match Rockstar would be one made my Rockstar. And then people would criticize them for "merely copying medieval life, and not putting in enough myths and legends and gods" or something.
The only fantasy setting that would match Rockstar would be one made my Rockstar. And then people would criticize them for "merely copying medieval life, and not putting in enough myths and legends and gods" or something.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I felt the need to live in the world of xenoblade more than most of the GTA games because of the world building in that game.
I think the Gothic games, 3 in particular, are on another level in terms of world building. Running around in those worlds feels like a proper adventure. The way they do vegetation, in particular, is very good, and significantly better than anything else I'm aware of. While Risen 2 isn't really open world like the Gothic games, it still has some incredible world design.
Agreed. Bethesda pays crazy attention to detail.
Xenoblade is also another game with insane world building, but it doesn't feel seamless like GTA or Bethesda's games.
TheAdmiester
Member
I've never seen such a wrong post in my life. It's hilarious how many people are hideously oversimplifying what Rockstar does, as if it's something any dev can do given the money. This isn't true, otherwise Ubisoft would be the best in the business wouldn't they?
GTA's worlds have so much character and intricate design that only the most passionate designers could make. Even just the random bits of litter and clutter that are strewn around run-down places, like the various dirty, grimy, damaged pieces in this picture:
And as I said with the intricate details:
Has anyone ever seen such a detailed little lifering in a game? I doubt it.
GTA 5 is a masterpiece in absolutely every aspect. Have another picture, just as a little showcase of the fantastic lighting and reflections in the game that also contribute to the plausibility and natural feel of it. I'd love to see a Xenoblade game look as homely and "functioning, living city-like" as this.
Brutalitops
Banned
This is actually one of the areas I think Assassin's Creed does well. Paris in AC Unity was beautiful.
trickyhero
Member
When it comes to writing and making it memorable, Fallout New Vegas and simular rpgs are more memorable to me.
Naughty_Doge
Member
They really are the rockstars of game development.
cleveridea
Member
Getting such huge draw distances with that much detail on PS3 GTA V was amazing
Flying, views of city front high vantage points on older consoles was an amazing achievement regardless of money
And whatever you think of them as games both unity and watchdogs had a lot of simulation elements huge in scope, unity for crowd size and watchdogs in terms of complex animations like people playing soccer
I,d love to see what volition could do with similar budgets
In terms of gameplay I,d say the fallout 3, NV
Flying, views of city front high vantage points on older consoles was an amazing achievement regardless of money
And whatever you think of them as games both unity and watchdogs had a lot of simulation elements huge in scope, unity for crowd size and watchdogs in terms of complex animations like people playing soccer
I,d love to see what volition could do with similar budgets
In terms of gameplay I,d say the fallout 3, NV
TheAdmiester
Member
They'd keep the terrible Steelport map and use all the money on the licencing to make all of their pop culture references by name.
Golgo 13
The Man With The Golden Dong
First of all, Rockstar is incredibly talented. Secondly, they're one of the only studios who have the power to say "we're going to make our next game, we're going to spend as much money as we want, and the game will be ready when we say so".
Of course that wouldn't mean anything if they weren't immensely talented and creative as well.
So combined with some of the industry's best, yes, there's no doubt they make the best worlds, open or otherwise, in gaming.