Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
350 USD? Who are they kidding?
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Retro VGS, cartridge-based retro game console now on IndieGoGo
- Thread starter Dreamwriter
- Start date
Marty Chinn
Member
AAA games area also significantly more complex too. Higher complexity = higher probability of bugs.
JPeeples83
Member
I love the idea of the console, like that they're keeping production costs down by using Jaguar stuff - but the idea of a cart-only system is in the past and not the present for several good reasons. Games shipping bug-free is wonderful - but restricting the device to not having any kind of updating for the games doesn't strike me as forward-thinking in 2015.
I want this to succeed, but I don't see any realistic way for it to do so. I nearly backed it for $300, but charging $40 for shipping when OUYA shipped stuff free and gave folks a hefty discount for being an early backer (although this does give you a digital sub to RETRO to be fair), this feels like it's a bit inferior to OUYA's campaign.
The idea of AAA-level games have been around for ages, but it's only been within the past decade that we've seen large-scale launch issues. It isn't due to game complexity, but publishers going "well fuck it, we can update it so let's do that" and it's crippled things like Arkham Knight - which ran JUST FINE on 2/3 release platforms, so it's not the game's complexity, it's due to corner-cutting.
I want this to succeed, but I don't see any realistic way for it to do so. I nearly backed it for $300, but charging $40 for shipping when OUYA shipped stuff free and gave folks a hefty discount for being an early backer (although this does give you a digital sub to RETRO to be fair), this feels like it's a bit inferior to OUYA's campaign.
The idea of AAA-level games have been around for ages, but it's only been within the past decade that we've seen large-scale launch issues. It isn't due to game complexity, but publishers going "well fuck it, we can update it so let's do that" and it's crippled things like Arkham Knight - which ran JUST FINE on 2/3 release platforms, so it's not the game's complexity, it's due to corner-cutting.
POWERSPHERE
Banned
Or perhaps you could offer your advice and help them out?
Regardless of the system cost (which I can understand), the games are way too expensive. $60? I'm not the kind of person who compares indies vs. AAA titles but I can't imagine many of the games selling with those kinds of prices, which is a shame since I actually kind of see the appeal of the system.
I also find it really funny how they're bashing the OUYA now. I read RETRO magazine and listen to Retro Gaming Roundup and Mike Kennedy had nothing but positive things to say about the OUYA and would take any opportunity to talk about what an amazing system it was, even when the writing was on the wall that the system's days were numbered.
I also find it really funny how they're bashing the OUYA now. I read RETRO magazine and listen to Retro Gaming Roundup and Mike Kennedy had nothing but positive things to say about the OUYA and would take any opportunity to talk about what an amazing system it was, even when the writing was on the wall that the system's days were numbered.
JPeeples83
Member
The OUYA's days were numbered, but it really did show that there was a market for mobile gaming on a TV. They took the plunge and now you've got Amazon, Google, and Apple following their lead in that regard.
I'm confused as to just who the VGS is marketed towards. Many late-20s/early '30s and beyond gamers love the cart days, but mainly for the games - the actual card hardware could be a pain in the ass and while can be minimized now and I love the idea of owning a definitive version of a game on day one, I don't see this particular execution of that concept working well.
I'm confused as to just who the VGS is marketed towards. Many late-20s/early '30s and beyond gamers love the cart days, but mainly for the games - the actual card hardware could be a pain in the ass and while can be minimized now and I love the idea of owning a definitive version of a game on day one, I don't see this particular execution of that concept working well.
WickedLaharl
Member
Chart reminds me of this:
?
I was playing console games at the time, but I know the 90s had some horrendously buggy PC game launches too. X-Com Terror from the Deep comes to mind--if you research things in a certain order the game will be rendered unwinnable. Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor apparently removed Windows system files when you uninstalled it. Ultima 8's platforming controls (lol) were so bad they somehow distributed a patch on floppies IIRC.
I've been going back and forth on this for weeks now. I dislike the people who are fully ignorant and claiming this is a scam after doing zero research. I wish the people who are using these VGS threads to unashamedly mock and troll the product would be quiet because those posts are useless and it's embarrassing behavior. Those remarks aside, there are critical problems that others have mentioned and do need addressing if this isn't to become a huge flop.
1. Indiegogo is a huge mistake. The highest visibility platform and reach is on Kickstarter, period. Frankly, no one cares if Indiegogo has gotten a few more campaigns to completion percentage-wise. Kickstarter is a huge site and there will inevitably be a sizable number of ill-planned Kickstarters. If the Retro VGS team is serious in their planning and execution, the percentage of failures due to mismanagement should be a non-factor in the decision to forego the platform. This leads to the other point that no one cares if KS is slightly bending their rules to accommodate your product. Who are you afraid of calling you out and derailing everything? A bitter forumer with no influence? A blogger or youtuber with 20 followers? The vast majority of backers will NOT care and will not see such crappy criticisms. They will see your vision, dedication, planning; the fact that you're better organized and staffed and researched than dozens of other KS campaigns that still met their goals. I say save face, stop BSing in the dark corners of lesser known crowd funding sites and get the Kickstarter pitch going on full cylinders.
2. Discourage day 1 patches and encourage better game testing, but please renege on this no patches nonsense. It's terrible. No one thinks it's a good idea. Human error is impossible to fully eliminate and account for. Patches done right are a highly valuable feature, not a setback. How is this helpful to anyone besides being a silly, braggy bullet point for your presentation?
3. "Made in America" is a useless marketing gesture that will net you a few extra backers who fuss over that sort of thing, but far less if you had gone overseas and had a lower retail price. Many of the world's highest quality electronics are made in China. There is nothing wrong with going that route besides outdated stigma and unfounded beliefs about American superiority in manufacturing quality. All you're doing is passing on extra costs to your future consumer base at absolutely no benefit to them.
4. The price is too high and this is coming from someone who could back the VGS right now without hesitation. I'm not optimistic about backing you because I'm dubious about the goal being met. The problem is that the majority of aware and interested buyers are not in a position to simply drop $349 on a niche device. Newcomers just informed about this will balk at first sight. $199 would have put VGS in a very good place for new enthusiast hardware. It is in impulse buy and handheld device territory but for a full console. It is affordable. Heck, it's reasonable to the mind if you sound it out. $300+ is Sony and Microsoft console territory and a huge mental hurdle to overcome. You're above Wii U prices! At your high price point, the average person has to think a purchase very carefully and weigh comparable options. Those options you have placed yourself among are superior.
5. The cart-only approach is a big mistake. You can't ignore that we live in a world where cheap digital distribution platforms exist. It has opened up gaming to people who previously could not afford it and you're shitting on those people under the assumption that there are enough gamers with the deep pockets and mindsets of the record-buying audiophile. I personally think a digital platform supplemented by carts for those who desire to pay the cart premium is the correct avenue of approach. This also does not price out indies who cannot swallow the costs of having cartridges made for the console (and who cannot handle the strenuous pre-launch testing due to the finality of carts). This digital game library will obviously be much bigger, better priced and more enticing for your customers. People loved the idea of Shovel Knight going to retail for various good reasons, but no one ever suggested that they would love if we lived in an alternate reality where that was the only choice. FYI, the retail version of SK is only a $10 premium over the digital copy. I find it worrisome if your versions of games are indeed $40-$60.
6. Your backer incentives are very weak beyond the $300-$349 tier. There's not much else to add here. It just sucks. Add an extra game or controller, signed poster or packaging, new materials, work out a deal with an indie to add top backers to a game in some way... something, anything more. I see no reason to commit above the base levels besides pretty colors. The print sub locked to the highest tier is really stingy.
7. This is probably my most subjective and personal opinion. I have no issue with the console's shape; that's a trivial matter concerning the tiny hardcore gaming community that knows it's a Jaguar shell. However I do dislike the branding. The name Retro VGS and its logo are painfully generic. Did you seek counsel from a branding agency with top-notch designer who specializes in creating a memorable, attractive brand? It would also make sense to form a company with a good name and attach that to the front of a product with a strong name. Sega Genesis. Nintendo Wii. Sony Playstation. Apple iPhone. Amazon Kindle. Google Nexus. Canon Rebel. The list goes on. You... who are you and what is RETRO VGS? Retro itself is overused genericism and VGS means nothing to anyone. Is it a Famiclone knockoff? That's what it sounds like. Why are you so much pricier than a Hyperkin RetroN? (Hyperkin + slightly unique name. See how even they have a better brand presence than you.)
8. Simplify the feature set to bring the price down. I'm clearly no expert and can't say how, but the consensus seems to be that feature creep has brought up the price considerably from what could have been a lean, solid system.
I can't help feeling that you are inexplicably going extremely niche and obscure, being unyieldingly backwards and settling for unreasonably expensive at a detriment to everyone but a wealthy subsegment of a subsegment of gamers. Please consider reworking the product and your process to make it more affordable and mass-market friendly. Make an effort to reach out and include people rather than be ultra niche for no reason. I really hope this succeeds. Unfortunately I don't see that happening right now.
1. Indiegogo is a huge mistake. The highest visibility platform and reach is on Kickstarter, period. Frankly, no one cares if Indiegogo has gotten a few more campaigns to completion percentage-wise. Kickstarter is a huge site and there will inevitably be a sizable number of ill-planned Kickstarters. If the Retro VGS team is serious in their planning and execution, the percentage of failures due to mismanagement should be a non-factor in the decision to forego the platform. This leads to the other point that no one cares if KS is slightly bending their rules to accommodate your product. Who are you afraid of calling you out and derailing everything? A bitter forumer with no influence? A blogger or youtuber with 20 followers? The vast majority of backers will NOT care and will not see such crappy criticisms. They will see your vision, dedication, planning; the fact that you're better organized and staffed and researched than dozens of other KS campaigns that still met their goals. I say save face, stop BSing in the dark corners of lesser known crowd funding sites and get the Kickstarter pitch going on full cylinders.
2. Discourage day 1 patches and encourage better game testing, but please renege on this no patches nonsense. It's terrible. No one thinks it's a good idea. Human error is impossible to fully eliminate and account for. Patches done right are a highly valuable feature, not a setback. How is this helpful to anyone besides being a silly, braggy bullet point for your presentation?
3. "Made in America" is a useless marketing gesture that will net you a few extra backers who fuss over that sort of thing, but far less if you had gone overseas and had a lower retail price. Many of the world's highest quality electronics are made in China. There is nothing wrong with going that route besides outdated stigma and unfounded beliefs about American superiority in manufacturing quality. All you're doing is passing on extra costs to your future consumer base at absolutely no benefit to them.
4. The price is too high and this is coming from someone who could back the VGS right now without hesitation. I'm not optimistic about backing you because I'm dubious about the goal being met. The problem is that the majority of aware and interested buyers are not in a position to simply drop $349 on a niche device. Newcomers just informed about this will balk at first sight. $199 would have put VGS in a very good place for new enthusiast hardware. It is in impulse buy and handheld device territory but for a full console. It is affordable. Heck, it's reasonable to the mind if you sound it out. $300+ is Sony and Microsoft console territory and a huge mental hurdle to overcome. You're above Wii U prices! At your high price point, the average person has to think a purchase very carefully and weigh comparable options. Those options you have placed yourself among are superior.
5. The cart-only approach is a big mistake. You can't ignore that we live in a world where cheap digital distribution platforms exist. It has opened up gaming to people who previously could not afford it and you're shitting on those people under the assumption that there are enough gamers with the deep pockets and mindsets of the record-buying audiophile. I personally think a digital platform supplemented by carts for those who desire to pay the cart premium is the correct avenue of approach. This also does not price out indies who cannot swallow the costs of having cartridges made for the console (and who cannot handle the strenuous pre-launch testing due to the finality of carts). This digital game library will obviously be much bigger, better priced and more enticing for your customers. People loved the idea of Shovel Knight going to retail for various good reasons, but no one ever suggested that they would love if we lived in an alternate reality where that was the only choice. FYI, the retail version of SK is only a $10 premium over the digital copy. I find it worrisome if your versions of games are indeed $40-$60.
6. Your backer incentives are very weak beyond the $300-$349 tier. There's not much else to add here. It just sucks. Add an extra game or controller, signed poster or packaging, new materials, work out a deal with an indie to add top backers to a game in some way... something, anything more. I see no reason to commit above the base levels besides pretty colors. The print sub locked to the highest tier is really stingy.
7. This is probably my most subjective and personal opinion. I have no issue with the console's shape; that's a trivial matter concerning the tiny hardcore gaming community that knows it's a Jaguar shell. However I do dislike the branding. The name Retro VGS and its logo are painfully generic. Did you seek counsel from a branding agency with top-notch designer who specializes in creating a memorable, attractive brand? It would also make sense to form a company with a good name and attach that to the front of a product with a strong name. Sega Genesis. Nintendo Wii. Sony Playstation. Apple iPhone. Amazon Kindle. Google Nexus. Canon Rebel. The list goes on. You... who are you and what is RETRO VGS? Retro itself is overused genericism and VGS means nothing to anyone. Is it a Famiclone knockoff? That's what it sounds like. Why are you so much pricier than a Hyperkin RetroN? (Hyperkin + slightly unique name. See how even they have a better brand presence than you.)
8. Simplify the feature set to bring the price down. I'm clearly no expert and can't say how, but the consensus seems to be that feature creep has brought up the price considerably from what could have been a lean, solid system.
I can't help feeling that you are inexplicably going extremely niche and obscure, being unyieldingly backwards and settling for unreasonably expensive at a detriment to everyone but a wealthy subsegment of a subsegment of gamers. Please consider reworking the product and your process to make it more affordable and mass-market friendly. Make an effort to reach out and include people rather than be ultra niche for no reason. I really hope this succeeds. Unfortunately I don't see that happening right now.
robot
Member
This is a really awesome concept and hope it get's funded. I have no intention on backing it but will definitely follow it and possibly grab one at launch if all goes well. I love buying old physical games (specifically imports), but a big part of that is the history attached to it. Not sure I'd have that same feeling buying new carts.
Not really a fan of the Jaguar shell and those colors options. Woof. Hopefully by the time it hits production they'll realize a gloss finish is the absolute worst, especially for controllers. I didn't read through everything but maybe that's not final.
Great to see Read Only Memories on the list. Been following that game for awhile, the demo was really cool.
And no game patching really scares me.
Not really a fan of the Jaguar shell and those colors options. Woof. Hopefully by the time it hits production they'll realize a gloss finish is the absolute worst, especially for controllers. I didn't read through everything but maybe that's not final.
Great to see Read Only Memories on the list. Been following that game for awhile, the demo was really cool.
And no game patching really scares me.
OrbitalBeard
Member
I have to echo most here and say that having absolutely no ability to patch games is a huge problem. Most of us view patches as a necessary evil. In a perfect world, they wouldn't exist, but as games become more complex (yes, even retro-style ones), having the option to patch is pretty much a necessity. Plus, patches can also add new content to a game. Look at Shovel Knight. Its latest update turned a great game into an all-time classic, as far as I'm concerned.
So yeah, not giving developers the ability to patch their games is a huuuuuuuge issue. I love retro gaming but I also recognize that there are modern aspects of gaming that need to be a part of any new system.
So yeah, not giving developers the ability to patch their games is a huuuuuuuge issue. I love retro gaming but I also recognize that there are modern aspects of gaming that need to be a part of any new system.
Umm... I wouldn't consider jRPGs as having very complex gaming systems actually. If anything they're probably some of the simplest in terms of mechanics and alleviating bugs as they're mostly just grid based movement and collision, with some D&D battle rules thrown over it. An example of a 16bit era game with actual complex mechanics would be something like Sonic the Hedgehog... and that game had countless bugs and glitches as a result of that complexity.. and this was not due to "laziness" or whatever you're trying to attribute it to.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the idea of a limited 25 cart run. Are you essentially suggesting these would be a soft-launch as such, and then the real release date would come sometime after the early-adopters have suffered through whatever bugs existed in the original batch? How is that any better than the current situation of games being patch shortly after release that we have currently? The main difference I see is that those 25 buyers don't get the patched version...
Also, with the way this is being handled... those 25 copies would possibly be every copy sold on the platform, ever.
And I already brought up the money issue, game testing is a part of game development, indie or no, just like programming is, just like creating art is. If an indie developer can't give their game to friends and family to test, can't afford to have a tester or two on the team, can't afford to hire a testing service, then they aren't dedicated enough. It's not like friends and family are expensiveAnd even testing services aren't expensive.
For someone that's apparently worked in software development for so long, you say some very strange things. Yes game testing is a part of games development, and is factored into the cost... but doing MORE testing means that it becomes MORE of a cost, it's not like games aren't being tested today, and it's not as though any additional testing required is going to be free. I can't believe you're actually suggesting "friends and family" testers as though that's the sort of shit that'll steer the industry in the right direction... Jesus.
The 2 of those 3 platforms just so happen to be the 2 with a fixed specification... or in other word, less complexity. I'm not sure what alternate past you were part of, but I bought plenty of PC ports back in the day, and the situation was immeasurably worse than it is today. Go try out some old PC ports of Street Fighter 2, or Virtua Fighter 2, or Wipeout XL (note: bring CPUKiller), and then get back to me on this. You sound new to PC gaming honestly. Patches fucking saved PC gaming if anything.
So, NFev prefers to re-release its games on a mighty vague super-niche high priced console... But it refuses to publish on Live/Psn/Steam, LOL
I love the strong dedication to NeoGeo and DC communities but, really, what a fucking snob company must be to not release at least its older games in digital! It's a shame...
Anyway, good luck at the backers that put money and hopes for this projects. I hope to see their retro-dreams real
ev prefers to re-release its games on a mighty vague super-niche high priced console... But it refuses to publish on Live/Psn/Steam, LOLI love the strong dedication to NeoGeo and DC communities but, really, what a fucking snob company must be to not release at least its older games in digital! It's a shame...
Anyway, good luck at the backers that put money and hopes for this projects. I hope to see their retro-dreams real
Dreamwriter
Member
Those patches were due to my game being on a bad console (OUYA), not due to bugs in the game. They were primarily to fix bad controls caused by the OUYA controllers getting worse between the dev kits and consumer release - as a launch title I wasn't able to test the game on final hardware because OUYA didn't send final hardware to developers before launch. I had to both work around their analogue stick issues and add support for third-party controllers because the stock controllers were junk, and then even change the gameplay a little to minimize the controller issue (my game was originally designed around precise controls). And they changed their stock controllers three times after launch so I had to release patches to support how that changed controls. If the OUYA hardware that shipped was the same quality as the Dev Kit hardware, I would have been perfectly happy with the 1.0 game as it launched, it had no major/game breaking bugs (in fact, I shipped on other platforms with no patching needed).
You're right in that in a patchless world I wouldn't have been able to fix the controls, but that wasn't a normal situation.
Gotta please the
keep the resale price high.
JasonUresti
Member
So, NF
I love the strong dedication to NeoGeo and DC communities but, really, what a fucking snob company must be to not release at least its older games in digital! It's a shame...
Anyway, good luck at the backers that put money and hopes for this projects. I hope to see their retro-dreams real
As Khaz says above, NGDev is making collector items and need to manufacture scarcity to keep demand high for each release. Their games are fine from the couple I have played, but nothing that would cause a sensation on Steam or PSN, and of course if they were readily available and reasonably priced, well there goes rarity.
Ultimately I only care about games and playing them, not manuals or clamshell cases or anyone's nostalgia fueled fetishism for carts. This RGVS project offers no tangible benefits to my playing and enjoying games, and in fact is offering a less convienent and more expensive way to play games already available elsewhere.
I just read this post in the original thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=179376839&postcount=1229
Beyond the conceptual flaws like non-updatable system/games and pricing of both, this raises some serious doubts regarding the technical proficiency/expertise of the current team (and their business knowledge). Having an actual working prototype to show instead of just a plastic shell and controller (both of which they didn't create) prior to launching the fundraiser would have gone a long way to alleviate these doubts.
Be that as it may, it doesn't seem likely that the Retro VGS campaign will be able reach its lofty $2 million USD goal.
Beyond the conceptual flaws like non-updatable system/games and pricing of both, this raises some serious doubts regarding the technical proficiency/expertise of the current team (and their business knowledge). Having an actual working prototype to show instead of just a plastic shell and controller (both of which they didn't create) prior to launching the fundraiser would have gone a long way to alleviate these doubts.
Be that as it may, it doesn't seem likely that the Retro VGS campaign will be able reach its lofty $2 million USD goal.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Absolutely fantastic post that I couldn't agree more with. I am the target demographic for this console and I will be passing on it for all of the reasons listed above.
This entire project needs to be completely re-planned and relaunched at a later date, preferably with each of the above listed points factored into the new concept. Seriously, cancel the IndieGoGo (it's going to fail anyways) and put this whole project back into the oven for a while.
I really want to own this console, but currently that will be impossible.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Seems like the campaign's slowed down significantly. Good initial burst but the momentum's dropping. I think they just about tapped all the die-hards in those first five or so hours of the campaign.
They definitely need to look at monkeymagic84's post and other posts in this and the other thread that sought to give constructive criticism, because implementing those suggestions, I feel, would definitely help the campaign immensely.
And I want the system to succeed, but I know it can't in its current form. It just absolutely won't make it even a quarter way to its goal at this pace. The concept isn't the problem; there's a market for this system if done right. The problem is that Retro VGS's implementation of that concept seems flawed.
They definitely need to look at monkeymagic84's post and other posts in this and the other thread that sought to give constructive criticism, because implementing those suggestions, I feel, would definitely help the campaign immensely.
And I want the system to succeed, but I know it can't in its current form. It just absolutely won't make it even a quarter way to its goal at this pace. The concept isn't the problem; there's a market for this system if done right. The problem is that Retro VGS's implementation of that concept seems flawed.
ultrazilla
Gold Member
I'm on mobile, sorry for weird formatting.
I'm pretty sure when I went to bed this
morning they were at 57k. They're now
at 55k?!
I really want to see a system like this but
this is done. Imho, there's no way this makes it
to goal.
They need to get a solid, working prototype
console made to show off.
I'm sad because I do believe their hearts are
in the right place.
I think if they reached out to some other industry
people or other knowledgeable fans who
could help, they could make it happen.
I do think a ton of gamers seemed to be
behind the idea so support isn't the issue at
all. It's in the execution.
Hopefully somewhere down the road we'll have
a RetroVGS type system to play!
I'm pretty sure when I went to bed this
morning they were at 57k. They're now
at 55k?!
I really want to see a system like this but
this is done. Imho, there's no way this makes it
to goal.
They need to get a solid, working prototype
console made to show off.
I'm sad because I do believe their hearts are
in the right place.
I think if they reached out to some other industry
people or other knowledgeable fans who
could help, they could make it happen.
I do think a ton of gamers seemed to be
behind the idea so support isn't the issue at
all. It's in the execution.
Hopefully somewhere down the road we'll have
a RetroVGS type system to play!
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
So, is this thing DOA? Don't a lot of kickstarters get a lot at the start and end? Maybe indie go go's are more slow and steady?
They are gonna deliver a console to the consumers 2016 Q4, but still doesnt even have a prototype?.
Since you are gonna deliver 2016 Q4 you probably already have all the hardware specs ready.
And you have a development tool already up an running right? and a good hardware reference-manual.
What kind of hardware will there be in this console?. Which type of FPGA? model?, which kind of ARM cpu?
If I was in charge for the project, it would get to cost max $50 to produce and manufacture.
and get a selling price for around $99.
You cant make a console for $300 and with no support to developers and think they will give you great games, when they could release their games on PS4, and XB1 instead with better development tools and greater userbase.
Heck, it cant even double as a netflix-mediaplayer, or play your blurays for $300!
Since you are gonna deliver 2016 Q4 you probably already have all the hardware specs ready.
And you have a development tool already up an running right? and a good hardware reference-manual.
What kind of hardware will there be in this console?. Which type of FPGA? model?, which kind of ARM cpu?
If I was in charge for the project, it would get to cost max $50 to produce and manufacture.
and get a selling price for around $99.
You cant make a console for $300 and with no support to developers and think they will give you great games, when they could release their games on PS4, and XB1 instead with better development tools and greater userbase.
Heck, it cant even double as a netflix-mediaplayer, or play your blurays for $300!
Welp. My suggestions:
- Make it in China.
- Have an expansion slot, make the FPGA optional through it.
- lower the price to $150 with a game. Now you can as you are not paying expensive American workers nor including an FPGA.
- Make the FPGA $60, and $10 the adapter cart for retro consoles (not to be confused with the RETRO video game system).
- Change the damn name. It's not too late.
If they really believe the FPGA will be used by indie devs and will magically boost the graphical power, they're delusional. The only thing developers will do is port to ARM, a step they may have already done or budgeted if they planned an ipad/android version of their game. Anything else is too much work for the tiny market the retrovgs will have. If miraculously some indie games do use it, well there is the expansion slot.
The only reason to have the FPGA is to allow hardware emulation of ancient systems. It's a cool feature, but way too expensive to be included as default in the machine. They have to remember that they are catering to a niche of retrogaming enthusiasts, the type of people who already have a dozen of old consoles already: convincing them to game on the retrovgs instead of the original hardware will be a tough sell.
- Make it in China.
- Have an expansion slot, make the FPGA optional through it.
- lower the price to $150 with a game. Now you can as you are not paying expensive American workers nor including an FPGA.
- Make the FPGA $60, and $10 the adapter cart for retro consoles (not to be confused with the RETRO video game system).
- Change the damn name. It's not too late.
If they really believe the FPGA will be used by indie devs and will magically boost the graphical power, they're delusional. The only thing developers will do is port to ARM, a step they may have already done or budgeted if they planned an ipad/android version of their game. Anything else is too much work for the tiny market the retrovgs will have. If miraculously some indie games do use it, well there is the expansion slot.
The only reason to have the FPGA is to allow hardware emulation of ancient systems. It's a cool feature, but way too expensive to be included as default in the machine. They have to remember that they are catering to a niche of retrogaming enthusiasts, the type of people who already have a dozen of old consoles already: convincing them to game on the retrovgs instead of the original hardware will be a tough sell.
clem84
Gold Member
I'm ok with the no patch/updates thing. Games will be more expensive. That's where the money will go, longer pre-launch bug testing. I also like the cart-only approach.
I generally don't mind paying if the value is there but all the game previews I've seen up to now show games that, graphically, could be done on the Ouya, and the Ouya was 100$ IIRC. Why 300$? Ok... The cartridge slot, the RCA and S-video out, and the USB ports. Fine, but I don't see why those would cost a fortune to include on a console.
There are a few missteps here. They NEED to narrow down the hardware specs (power, inputs/outputs) to give us a better idea of what we're getting here, and most importantly, give us reasons why it's priced the way it is. They should also aim for 199$. Anything more than that and it will be a very tough sell. I don't see why a console with the specs/features (judging by the graphics) I'm seeing here would cost more than 100$ to manufacture. The rest will go to R&D. 199$ should be the sweet spot.
I really hope they will cancel this crowd-funding campaign and re-launch it in the near future with these issues ironed out.
I generally don't mind paying if the value is there but all the game previews I've seen up to now show games that, graphically, could be done on the Ouya, and the Ouya was 100$ IIRC. Why 300$? Ok... The cartridge slot, the RCA and S-video out, and the USB ports. Fine, but I don't see why those would cost a fortune to include on a console.
There are a few missteps here. They NEED to narrow down the hardware specs (power, inputs/outputs) to give us a better idea of what we're getting here, and most importantly, give us reasons why it's priced the way it is. They should also aim for 199$. Anything more than that and it will be a very tough sell. I don't see why a console with the specs/features (judging by the graphics) I'm seeing here would cost more than 100$ to manufacture. The rest will go to R&D. 199$ should be the sweet spot.
I really hope they will cancel this crowd-funding campaign and re-launch it in the near future with these issues ironed out.
What money? Who is supposed to pay for all this rigorous QA?
So basically some want the product changed beyond all recognition, in one case to an inexpensive rebranded non-cartridge based system that is made in a different country.
If that's what you are interested in, great, but it is so completely divorced from what this crowdfunding pitch is suggesting that the "criticism" is ludicrous. That's not what this project is. It will never not be a cartridge based video game system that plays new games, whether it succeeds or fails.
Making this for a startup simply won't be cheap, no matter how many posts we get claiming it should be. This is a niche product for a small audience that cares about what it offers. If you want another type of console, that's available to you elsewhere. Completely changing their vision after substantial planning wouldn't inspire confidence. It would signal disaster.
If that's what you are interested in, great, but it is so completely divorced from what this crowdfunding pitch is suggesting that the "criticism" is ludicrous. That's not what this project is. It will never not be a cartridge based video game system that plays new games, whether it succeeds or fails.
Making this for a startup simply won't be cheap, no matter how many posts we get claiming it should be. This is a niche product for a small audience that cares about what it offers. If you want another type of console, that's available to you elsewhere. Completely changing their vision after substantial planning wouldn't inspire confidence. It would signal disaster.
RunWhiteBoyRun
Member
After reading up on this thing in the thread from AtariAge.. nope, never in a million years.
Square2015
Member
Will this play SNES repros?
foobarry81
Member
No, it won't. At least not if they're on SNES format carts.
It's completely feasible with the hardware they want to build.
They said they wanted to provide cartridge adapters and use the FPGA to make hardware emulation. Playing SNES games should be easy. But with the recent feud with Kevtris, sole provider of FPGA cores, the idea of playing old cartridge games on the retrovgs is pushed further away.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
I just checked the progress so far the IGG has slowed to an absolute crawl. At this rate it probably won't even break $200k.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I have a bridge to sell you...
I suggested both which works out pretty damn well for the 3DS. I can buy Shovel Knight for $15 if my budget is tight or I can splurge $25 for a physical cart and packaging. I can get both if I'm a completionist with the pockets to afford it. How is this not the best of both worlds?
Oh no, it was made in China! It does not matter. Made in America probably only mattered when skilled tradesmen put together goods with American-made parts. I'm betting the RVGS parts are sourced from all over the world, mainly Asia (gasp), and will be put together by relatively low-skilled Americans that are less meticulous than their Chinese counterparts. It probably only mattered when China exclusively meant shoddy and counterfeit. Mac Pros and Moto X phones were made in the US a couple of years ago and it made no difference in quality from Asian versions before and after. All the Apple stuff is made in China and they're the best of the best hardware in the world. My 2006 launch Wii, made in China!, still runs flawlessly.
I get that they're targeting a highly discerning niche that expects a product with a certain pure vision, but what does any of that matter if there aren't enough of them to get the damn console made? After the majority of interested backers have committed, they're at barely over $55,000 of a near 2 MILLION dollar campaign and it has slowed to a near halt. $1.9 million left to go. Almost there!
And I stand by the name being crap. It was the Nintendo Entertainment System from Nintendo, not The Entertainment System from God knows who. SNK's Neo Geo Advanced Entertainment System. It's important to craft a non-generic brand name. This is why TV.com and other easy but very generic domains gain no traction. "I just bought a Retro, I'm playing Retro" means nothing. Retro Video Game System actually sounds like the subtitle that goes under the system's real name on the packaging. This is basic stuff. No one is suggesting a weird name like Ouya either. You really object to there being at least an identifiable company name as being the makers of RVGS?
clem84
Gold Member
Not sure what's unclear about it. The higher cost of games should in theory pay for the extended QA phase. If the developer is confident about his game and wants to pay it upfront, he'll get his money back from the higher price tag of his game. If he wants to go the crowd-funding way, he can do that too. This of course doesn't guarantee all RVGS games will be bug free. If they turn out buggy, this console will have a very short life.
I'm saying that that's what the concept is about. Will it work out that way? Who knows? Is it possible for a developer to release a buggy game, charge full price and run with the money so to speak? Of course it is. You guys are choosing to look at it "half-empty". If RetroVGS games launch at 50$, then they better be pretty damn flawless. The fact that they're un-patchable will put extra pressure on the developers to test them more thoroughly. If they're able to produce bug free, cool looking and playing 2D games with nice looking cart-box-manual, then yeah, to me that's worth 50$.
This might seem like a none-issue for some, but the fact that nothing is said about what project is in the campaign video until 2 minutes in puts me off.
It's basic pitching really.
If you want to shout out/thank people sure, that's great, but don't do it before anything else on a video where you're trying to convince me to give you monetary backing, do it separately or at the end, the project should be front and center.
Either way, without a prototype I wouldn't back it.
Can't say I see "no patches/system updates" as a feature that'd get me to buy it over a rival system either as they like to chart.
It's basic pitching really.
If you want to shout out/thank people sure, that's great, but don't do it before anything else on a video where you're trying to convince me to give you monetary backing, do it separately or at the end, the project should be front and center.
Either way, without a prototype I wouldn't back it.
Can't say I see "no patches/system updates" as a feature that'd get me to buy it over a rival system either as they like to chart.
Vipershark
Member
From my understanding, that was the goal, yes.
The SNES core hasn't been made yet but is a planned feature after the initial set of cores is released. You could either play SNES roms which play off of VGS carts (i.e. games coded for the SNES hardware and roms technically playable on the SNES but released in the Jaguar/VGS cart shells) or, using some sort of adapter, plug actual SNES/repro carts directly into the VGS.
Essentially it would function as a clone of the SNES when using that core. Other systems would work the same way with their respective cores.
Unfortunately, the VGS in its current form is a bust but I would absolutely love a modern system that would allow me to code a native SNES game and play it.
foobarry81
Member
Sure, but why would you ever want to get a cartridge adapter to play SNES games on that console though? And if they're also going to have those manufactured in the US, how much would it cost to get one, right? Would you seriously consider getting multiple cartridge adapters to play all your Nintendo and SEGA carts on that thing?
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
What higher costs are you talking about? I mean, of course the physical games will cost more than just buying them digitally on Steam or something. But, that's because obviously it's going to cost way more to actually produce the physical products.
You think developers are just going to charge more to do more QA? Why wouldn't they just do that already if it was feasible?
stan423321
Member
Depends on a few things, and things are not going well with what these guys are setting up, but the concept could end up with a good product. The FPGA-based emulation is generally more accurate than the CPU-based one; you play with cartridges; you use only one AV cable set for all the systems.
I mean, I'd heavily consider an FPGA based RetroN-alike with all the ports built-in. Switching adapters sounds stupid, but I've done weirder things to play my Wii on a computer monitor.
There are, however, a few things that make me think pushing this particular horse is not a good idea. The molds thing, I thought it was suspicious they're supposed to be this costly when all sort of plastic scrap is available for insanely cheap prices, but I quietly ate that one up for the time being. But then, we got: the price, the game size thing, apparent abandoning of durable storage... And the initial sentiments were heavily against "direct" compatibility with old systems; it sounds like they wanted us to buy Retro carts with an FPGA emulator and a game, then reevaluated this stance, which is sort of alright, except this is a major change of the concept that should probably prompt a complete revamp of the whole campaign.
Basically, this thing cannot decide what it wants to be in my opinion.
I'm not saying it's reasonable, I'm saying it's feasible. People love their RetroN5, they like having only one console and to use all their games on it on their HD screen without any hurdle. Even though the RetroN5 is a PoS, the concept is attractive to many people. I'm part of the crew who like gaming on the original hardware, but I can see that some people want simplicity and ease of use in their nostalgia shot.
Doctor Ironic
Member
Haha, oh man, I remember you. How's it going, Aweful Dreamzle?
OUYA dev kits were the exact same as the final product aside from the clear plastic shell. As a matter of fact, they WERE presented as the final product, until after bad reviews came pouring in, at which OUYA told everyone the product was "still in beta." You have no legs to stand on.
Ghost_Messiah
Member
Yeah this thing seems quite disappointingly DOA. Like severely DOA. Given their recent manoeuvres I expected this to struggle but I didn't expect this to struggle this hard. I thought they'd at least have the hardcore interested and a few thousand backers by now. I feel so bad for them because I've been tracking this for months and I know the heart and good intention that went in to this. They really should have listened to the overwhelming amount of negative feedback when they announced the jacked up price and lowered this thing down to $150 as per their original price target and hardware intention. I think that in tandem with switching to IndieGoGo at the last minute has doomed this. Kickstarter is just more popular and would have gained them more attention.
It's still a fantastic core idea but it feels like they took a miscalculated wrong turn at the last second and that has doomed them. The only positive thing I can think of is that I guess it's still early? This could turn around and speed up in terms of momentum? As unlikely as that may be.
It's still a fantastic core idea but it feels like they took a miscalculated wrong turn at the last second and that has doomed them. The only positive thing I can think of is that I guess it's still early? This could turn around and speed up in terms of momentum? As unlikely as that may be.
NoFaceNico
Member
Wow, I didn't even realize a second thread was started!! And to think someone in the original thread said I'm one of the main sources of brewing discontent with the RVGS. Yeah right, I just found this new thread an hour ago and look how people have been responding to this without my input.
Well, on the AtariAge forums, Kevtris (the now ex-member of the RVGS team) made another detailed post which shines some light on RVGS operations.
Well, on the AtariAge forums, Kevtris (the now ex-member of the RVGS team) made another detailed post which shines some light on RVGS operations.
OrbitalBeard
Member
There's absolutely no way this succeeds in its current state. If they cancel this campaign and go back to the drawing board, offering up a $150 console like they originally envisioned, they might have a shot. But even then, there's a pretty good chance it won't succeed, due to lost faith from people who originally got really excited about this system (like myself).
This is amazing and terrifying at the same time. The team behind the project looks fairly unprofessional. It seems like everything is still in the air and with Kevtris removed from the project they will have a hard time completing it.
NormalFish
Banned
'overzealous' seems a good term for the developers. In over their heads.
panda-zebra
Banned
Yikes. Way more info regarding RVGS in that single kevtris post than probably everything else put together.
His comments regarding adding stuff in left and right is exactly how it looked from the outside.
Haven't you seen the chart? Those console are nothing but red cross after red cross... who would even want one of those?