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Jian Ghomeshi (from CBC) trial verdict reached: not guilty

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Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
So I'm not sure whats going on with this fourth witness, but the closing statements have been made and there is a metric ton of discussion about this case, it's all very interesting:

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...ous-about-crowns-collapsing-case-dimanno.html

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/jian-ghomeshi-trial-closing-arguments

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ghomeshi-trial-crown-police-1.3444776

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...-is-not-our-watershed-moment/article28730758/

Like... these are just a tip. The closing statements by Ghomeshi's Lawyer are particularly interesting to read, in that, she's a goddamn amazing lawyer.
 
So I'm not sure whats going on with this fourth witness, but the closing statements have been made and there is a metric ton of discussion about this case, it's all very interesting:

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...ous-about-crowns-collapsing-case-dimanno.html

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/jian-ghomeshi-trial-closing-arguments

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ghomeshi-trial-crown-police-1.3444776

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...-is-not-our-watershed-moment/article28730758/

Like... these are just a tip. The closing statements by Ghomeshi's Lawyer are particularly interesting to read, in that, she's a goddamn amazing lawyer.

“There is not an expert in the world that would come and testify that perjury is indicative of trauma,” Henein observed. “What the witness cannot do is . . . lie and conceal their conduct and then, when caught out, say, ‘oh gee, that’s just how victims of abuse behave.’ ”

This definitely stood out. I think it's a complex set of circumstances that led to these witnesses withholding some of the truth, and fear may have been a part of it, but, wow, she's good.
 

Oppo

Member
So I'm not sure whats going on with this fourth witness, but the closing statements have been made and there is a metric ton of discussion about this case, it's all very interesting:

...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...-is-not-our-watershed-moment/article28730758/

Like... these are just a tip. The closing statements by Ghomeshi's Lawyer are particularly interesting to read, in that, she's a goddamn amazing lawyer.

The McLaren article is awful, man. check out this line:

Leah McLaren said:
There is a great deal wrong with the way we try sex crimes in this country. The results can be seen in our low conviction rate, which according to Statscan figures stands at below 45 per cent. In Britain, by contrast, the conviction rate of sexual-assault cases prosecuted is close to 60 per cent. According to a friend who is a busy criminal barrister in Manchester, in the aftermath of Yewtree and Rotherham, “Rape has become the bread and butter of the Crown Prosecution Service. Basically if someone complains, we prosecute,” she said.

she's quite literally complaining that we can't simply throw the accused into a hole. and these women are made to 'run the legal gauntlet', no mention of any apparently lying under oath or whatnot.
 
I do think that a special court with Crown attorneys who are trained to deal with victims like this might not be a bad idea but I am not a fan of moving the goal posts on burden of proof. Not one bit.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
The McLaren article is awful, man. check out this line:

she's quite literally complaining that we can't simply throw the accused into a hole. and these women are made to 'run the legal gauntlet', no mention of any apparently lying under oath or whatnot.

I do think that a special court with Crown attorneys who are trained to deal with victims like this might not be a bad idea but I am not a fan of moving the goal posts on burden of proof. Not one bit.

Yeah there is an uncomfortable discussion here that I am seeing friends of mine avoiding about this. Articles like that are highlighting points that many people are repeating, but it's becoming awkward. Eventually there is going to be a much needed discussion about this, I just hope it can be candid.

There is a very interesting discussion between two people on facebook I have as friends happening right now, and it's cordial - but I can tell no one else wants to jump in because it's a bit terrifying.

I think the most disappointing thing is that there is a fear of saying the wrong thing here, and ousting yourself as either a man-hating dictatorship loving monster, or a callous cold hearted misogynistic robot. I think people are struggling to find room for nuance, but everyone -wants- it to be there.
 

Oppo

Member
Yeah there is an uncomfortable discussion here that I am seeing friends of mine avoiding about this. Articles like that are highlighting points that many people are repeating, but it's becoming awkward. Eventually there is going to be a much needed discussion about this, I just hope it can be candid.

There is a very interesting discussion between two people on facebook I have as friends happening right now, and it's cordial - but I can tell no one else wants to jump in because it's a bit terrifying.

I think the most disappointing thing is that there is a fear of saying the wrong thing here, and ousting yourself as either a man-hating dictatorship loving monster, or a callous cold hearted misogynistic robot. I think people are struggling to find room for nuance, but everyone -wants- it to be there.

agree on everything. including the weirdly "homegrown", probably well-intentioned, chilling effect on language. problem is, nuance takes time and effort, and we know how tempting cognitive shortcuts are in this, the era of social media.

oddly it's just this sort of topic that I think will bring back something like Google Glass, into mainstream use, as a sort of Personal Dashcam. and I don't know if I hate that idea either. I am fascinated by how fucking completely shoddy our memories are, even well-intentioned folks get it so wrong so often in legal cases. Eyewitness testimony has been considered sort of the slam dunk standard for a while but it ought not be.
 

Hycran

Banned
I do think that a special court with Crown attorneys who are trained to deal with victims like this might not be a bad idea but I am not a fan of moving the goal posts on burden of proof. Not one bit.

This already exists, it's called the BC Supreme Court. A number of crown attorneys specialize in a number of different areas. My Crim professor specialized in motor vehicle crimes, one of his buddies did primarily murders, etc.

The real problem here is that people don't understand that the court is not simply going into anything like this blind. If the main concern here is that these women were abused and their after the fact behaviour seems inconsistent with the abuse, the crown can call an expert witness (such as a trained psychologist in the field) to explain why a woman would act the way they did in that situation.

The induction of expert witnesses and evidence is why the entire concept of self-defense changed in the case of domestic abuse. As concisely as possible, most people think of self-defense in the "man to man, hand to hand" context. There were women however who were killing their partners, seemingly in cold blood, after suffering for long periods of times in abusive relationships. Expert witnesses and psychological testimony was brought in to explain that these women were actually acting in self defense in these situations, as they had special triggers that they could sense when their partner might cross the line from simply beating them to actually murdering them. Instead of waiting for them to be in a fight they couldn't win, the women "defended" themselves differently.

It is impossible for a judge or jury to understand what these women went through unless they themselves have been victims of sexual violence. What the defense attorney here is doing is drawing a picture of these womens after the fact behaviour as being so remarkably different from what the perception of what an abused woman would do as to be entirely damning of their credibility. The real shame in this case is that the women have changed their story and generally been unreliable, essentially stripping the crown of a lot of opportunities, including possibly calling expert evidence.

Also MDUBS, are you quoting from CAN's? Those bullet points look like law school notes (better than what I did in Crim haha)
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
This already exists, it's called the BC Supreme Court. A number of crown attorneys specialize in a number of different areas. My Crim professor specialized in motor vehicle crimes, one of his buddies did primarily murders, etc.

The real problem here is that people don't understand that the court is not simply going into anything like this blind. If the main concern here is that these women were abused and their after the fact behaviour seems inconsistent with the abuse, the crown can call an expert witness (such as a trained psychologist in the field) to explain why a woman would act the way they did in that situation.

The induction of expert witnesses and evidence is why the entire concept of self-defense changed in the case of domestic abuse. As concisely as possible, most people think of self-defense in the "man to man, hand to hand" context. There were women however who were killing their partners, seemingly in cold blood, after suffering for long periods of times in abusive relationships. Expert witnesses and psychological testimony was brought in to explain that these women were actually acting in self defense in these situations, as they had special triggers that they could sense when their partner might cross the line from simply beating them to actually murdering them. Instead of waiting for them to be in a fight they couldn't win, the women "defended" themselves differently.

It is impossible for a judge or jury to understand what these women went through unless they themselves have been victims of sexual violence. What the defense attorney here is doing is drawing a picture of these womens after the fact behaviour as being so remarkably different from what the perception of what an abused woman would do as to be entirely damning of their credibility. The real shame in this case is that the women have changed their story and generally been unreliable, essentially stripping the crown of a lot of opportunities, including possibly calling expert evidence.

Also MDUBS, are you quoting from CAN's? Those bullet points look like law school notes (better than what I did in Crim haha)

To be honest, what stood out to as the most 'damning' thing a witness said, was the second witnesses email the day after the event - in which she said (paraphrasing) "it was so hot how you kicked my ass last night, it makes me want to fuck your brains out".

Why this was damning to me is that it sort of implied that, as far as the defendant could be concerned, the witness was consenting to the physically 'violent' sexually charged acts that were purported. What that then leads me to question is - let's say that the witness in this case actually did not want these acts to take place, but sent this email out anyway (it's actually a long email) - what is someone supposed to do about that? If this is the only non-testimony evidence to consent, it would be hard to dismiss that (if this were a jury trial and I was in the jury) as the erratic behaviour of someone who was sexually assaulted.

But then it gets me thinking, does that mean I am placing too much emphasis on the actions of the witness? If the witness had disclosed this in advance, and included it in her testimony, would it change my mind?
 

Hycran

Banned
To be honest, what stood out to as the most 'damning' thing a witness said, was the second witnesses email the day after the event - in which she said (paraphrasing) "it was so hot how you kicked my ass last night, it makes me want to fuck your brains out".

Why this was damning to me is that it sort of implied that, as far as the defendant could be concerned, the witness was consenting to the physically 'violent' sexually charged acts that were purported. What that then leads me to question is - let's say that the witness in this case actually did not want these acts to take place, but sent this email out anyway (it's actually a long email) - what is someone supposed to do about that? If this is the only non-testimony evidence to consent, it would be hard to dismiss that (if this were a jury trial and I was in the jury) as the erratic behaviour of someone who was sexually assaulted.

But then it gets me thinking, does that mean I am placing too much emphasis on the actions of the witness? If the witness had disclosed this in advance, and included it in her testimony, would it change my mind?

I think this is really what people are struggling with. This is why I think expert evidence is necessary to try and explain the women's actions. Clearly the defence is slavering over something that looks consensual, but that is why expert evidence can help to explain "irrational" or "non-sensical" behaviours of the witnesses after the fact. Those actions are "irrational" to me because I have never suffered a sexual abuse. There might be a whole wealth of literature that actually points out that women who are abused actually do this as a coping mechanism. Without the expert evidence, we are basically left where we are now, thinking these women are either uncredible or actually wanted such sexual activity to take place.

As a side note, because Ghomeshi is unlikely to go on trial himself, it is only natural that we are placing all of the emphasis on the witnesses in what is essentially a "he said, she said" trial. Had the witnesses disclosed all of their information in advance, the crown might not have called them, but the defence would still be provided with their evidence due to disclosure rules, so we would probably be in the same boat as we are now. A bad witness is a bad witness, regardless of how much they tell you.
 

entremet

Member
The narrative hasn't changed at all, though. With no physical evidence and a 13-year gap, credibility matters. You can't just throw someone in jail on someone else's word. All three witnesses lied to police, changed their stories, and got caught chasing Ghomeshi with emails, love notes, and sex after the incidents. The narrative hasn't been changed, it's been made clearer, imho.

Yep. This is why due process is important.

I mean, the guy isn't likable at all, but that shouldn't have bearing on this trial.

I wonder if he sues his employers after this.
 

Hycran

Banned
Yep. This is why due process is important.

I mean, the guy isn't likable at all, but that shouldn't have bearing on this trial.

I wonder if he sues his employers after this.

If I recall correctly, He is a unionized employee so he has to file a greivance there. I don't believe he has any contractual right to sue the CBC directly.

That being said, it brings up an interesting point. Most employment contracts nowadays have "social media" or public perception clauses in them which states that the employer can fire an employee if they do something damaging to the best interests of the business. This was seen recently in the case where a CityNews employee was fired for saying "fuck her right in the pussy" on live TV - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fhrit...es-to-citynews-reporter-shauna-hunt-1.3077022

The better question though is whether he could be reinstated if found innocent. In that case, he could legitimately claim that (Even though it is still likely he abused these women in some way shape or form) that he cannot be dismissed for a public perception event that he is, legally in fact, not guilty of. This is even more interesting considering Shad, the current host of Q, is fucking garbage and there has even been national media attention given to questioning why he is so bad. I'm not an employment law expert at all, but my guess is that there is very little case law on the subject as employers are trying to deal with these things privately.
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
Would anybody even want Gomeshi to come back as host?

I wouldn't be watching, even though I used to be a fan of his interviews, and I'm guessing a number of artists would never appear on it.
 

Alavard

Member
I wonder if he sues his employers after this.

When his employers confronted him about the allegations, didn't he defend himself by showing them a video from his phone of him and a woman, having, according to him, consensual rough sex? Even if innocent of these charges, I would think showing your employers video of you having sex would be unprofessional enough to warrant a potential termination.
 

Blackhead

Redarse
When his employers confronted him about the allegations, didn't he defend himself by showing them a video from his phone of him and a woman, having, according to him, consensual rough sex? Even if innocent of these charges, I would think showing your employers video of you having sex would be unprofessional enough to warrant a potential termination.

He showed his employers pictures of the women's injuries. The employers saw stuff like damaged ribs.
It's important to keep in mind that
1) at least one of the women was a junior employee under Ghomeshi
2) technically there is no such thing as 'consensual rough sex' under Canadian law. Damaged bodies is considered assault and you can't consent to assault

So they had lots of grounds to fire him
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
The whole case reminds me of Dave Chappelle on Michael Jackson. I'm paraphrasing:

Prosecutor: Do you believe Michael Jackson molested kids?

Dave: No. He wrote Thriller, man. Thriller.

Prosecutor: So you'd be fine letting your son sleep over at his ranch?

Dave: FUCK NO!

People say there's not enough evidence to convict, and that the witnesses were bad, but everybody knows Jian smacked around those women.

The better question though is whether he could be reinstated if found innocent. In that case, he could legitimately claim that (Even though it is still likely he abused these women in some way shape or form) that he cannot be dismissed for a public perception event that he is, legally in fact, not guilty of. This is even more interesting considering Shad, the current host of Q, is fucking garbage and there has even been national media attention given to questioning why he is so bad. I'm not an employment law expert at all, but my guess is that there is very little case law on the subject as employers are trying to deal with these things privately.

He was fired way before any criminal charges. He was fired for hostile workplace stuff and how he treated staff. He was a little dictator apparently in the booth and was fast and loose with HR. There were grounds for termination.

Basically, the CBC felt like Jian was "too big to fire" until the blood in the water about this woman willing to come forward about a sexual assault, and when that happened, Jian went up to his bosses and gave the "you're gonna hear women say I beat them, but we were just having a BDSM session, and they're just jilted lovers," speech. The CBC heard that and said, "we're gonna use this opportunity to run from you as fast as we can."

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/po...s-should-roll-ignoring-ghomeshi-improprieties

Culturally, I think it's weird that if someone is the victim of a violent robbery, as a witness they are an asset to the crown, but if someone is the victim of a violent sexual assault, they are a detriment to the crown.

Other crimes there's that "leave no witnesses" idea where it's better to kill the person so they can't testify. Unless it's rape, then better leave the witness alive because chances are the defense can shred them on the stand.

It's interesting that this is a bench trial and not a jury trial. It seems like the defense did a really good job that may have swayed a jury, but will a judge be influenced as much by a superstar lawyer?

I thought initially having a bench trial was a smart move, because a judge may not have been as influenced by dramatic testimony coming from crown witnesses and instead rely more strictly on evidence, but it didn't go that way at all. The defense "won" in the witness box, which seems like it would have been a slam dunk had they gone with a jury.

Again, who knows.

The interesting thing is that in a trial by jury, the jury reaches a decision and can't give a detailed reasoning publicly for it, whereas in a bench trial, the judge must provide a thorough and detailed ruling according to the law. So that's why the decision is going to take a month. The judge is writing up a small novel on their ruling.
 
There's also a significant inconsistency between DeCoutere's avowed testimony to the Crown that she had no interest in pursuing a romantic relationship with Ghomeshi when, in fact, dozens of emails point to a very different reality, the judge said.

When describing an email sent hours after the alleged choking incident in which DeCoutere said he "kicked her ass last night" which made her "want to f--k him... Tonight."

"There is not a trace of animosity, regret, or offence taken," in that message, the judge said
.

"All of the extreme animosity since going public ... seems to stand in stark contrast to the flirtatious correspondence [in] in 2003 and 2004," the judge said.

But it is the "suppression of evidence" that drive my concerns with the reliability of this witness, Horkins said. "It's difficult to have trust in a witness who engages in the selectively withholding of information.

Yup.

It's sad that I'm seeing tweets from a local councillor talking about how this trial show's how the Canadian legal system is biased against victims of abuse. This witness lied, constantly changed her story, and apparently loved whatever weird shit Ghomeshi is into and wanted more of it. She ruined her own credibility, not the justice system.
 
Yup.

It's sad that I'm seeing tweets from a local councillor talking about how this trial show's how the Canadian legal system is biased against victims of abuse. This witness lied, constantly changed her story, and apparently loved whatever weird shit Ghomeshi is into and wanted more of it. She ruined her own credibility, not the justice system.

Yeah,

Based on the evidence presented in court I can understand the judge's thought process here. If the victims had been upfront regarding their entire relationship with Ghomeshi it may have allowed the Crown to present expert testimony regarding victims of abuse. I feel like the Crown was somewhat blindsided here by what was revealed in court. Their case would have been undoubtedly stronger if the victims had not hid facts.

I think Ghomeshi is scum but based on what was presented in court I would have to side with the judge here.
 

Onemic

Member
Yup.

It's sad that I'm seeing tweets from a local councillor talking about how this trial show's how the Canadian legal system is biased against victims of abuse. This witness lied, constantly changed her story, and apparently loved whatever weird shit Ghomeshi is into and wanted more of it. She ruined her own credibility, not the justice system.

Pretty much. It sucks for ghomeshi because his name is forever tarnished. He should sue CBC for a ton of money after the ruling.
 

Blader

Member
There's no way he isn't walking. The judge has been systematically tearing apart every witness as unreliable or not credible after saying the case hinges on the credibility of the witnesses.
 
The live blog is making me a bit sick in how it's presenting some of the judge's thoughts. Sure, many seem quite valid, but then you have shit like:

The judge describes the witness's testimony, in which the witness tries to describe what happened to her.
She struggles to say whether she was choked with one hand or two, whether Ghomeshi bit her at the time, and for exactly how long he would have had his hand -- or hands -- around her throat, revealed in the testimony the judge reads to the court in his decision.

If this summary is accurate then idea that this is material for a traumatic experience years and years ago is beyond ridiculous and seems to be based on utterly incorrect views of human memory.
 
I haven't been following the case so I don't know the details. Can you summarize what makes him scum? Was it shown he is abusive?

I have spoken to people who have known him. Also, I think there is no denial of the abuse he committed on these women. The problem is that the stuff the victims withheld after makes their testimony not credible.

The live blog is making me a bit sick in how it's presenting some of the judge's thoughts. Sure, many seem quite valid, but then you have shit like:



If this summary is accurate then idea that this is material for a traumatic experience years and years ago is beyond ridiculous and seems to be based on utterly incorrect views of human memory.

Yeah, I read that one and couldn't quite figure out what the judge was getting at there. One hand or two? What does it matter?
 
Losing your job for something you didn't do isn't right, regardless if you like the guy or not.

Being found not guilty doesn't mean he didn't do it.

IIRC, he's been open about enjoying rough sex.

The Crown faces a difficult bar of proof to meet, the judge acknowledged. Because there's no "smoking gun," no physical evidence that the prosecution can point to in order to support the witnesses.

Instead, the court must rely solely on the word of the witnesses, Horkins said.

But it's clear that each witness was "less than full and frank" in their statements to media, police and the court.

This is really the crux of the case right here.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Of course. I'm saying I personally don't think he did what the prosecution said he did.


You can be fired from your job from enjoying rough sex?

2 things.

It's pretty clear he was sketchy about consent. He had consent for intimacy, but he ramped shit up pretty quick.. that's what every story everywhere has said.

I don't care if you are into rough shit, but you better get consent from your partner, clearn and direct consent if you are getting violent.

There was more to Jian's firing than just rough sex, from all accounts he was a horrible employee from an HR stand-point.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
uggggggggh. what a terrible fucking week this has been.

How so? It's clear from this case that there's no way he could be found guilty in a court of law for what these 3 women testified.

Now the next case, maybe there's something there. This case though, way too many inconsistencies.
 

Onemic

Member
2 things.

It's pretty clear he was sketchy about consent. He had consent for intimacy, but he ramped shit up pretty quick.. that's what every story everywhere has said.

I don't care if you are into rough shit, but you better get consent from your partner, clearn and direct consent if you are getting violent.

There was more to Jian's firing than just rough sex, from all accounts he was a horrible employee from an HR stand-point.

If they fired him for other stuff then that's fair
 
How so? It's clear from this case that there's no way he could be found guilty in a court of law for what these 3 women testified.

Now the next case, maybe there's something there. This case though, way too many inconsistencies.
it's just been a bad news week is all. Belgium, North carolina, batman versus superman....
 
uggggggggh. what a terrible fucking week this has been.

Why? You hate the man so much that you want him thrown in jail after one of the most botched and misguided prosecutions you'll ever see? The witnesses tried to hide and lie their way to a conviction and it would have set a horrible precedent if they had won.
 

mdubs

Banned
Waiting to read the written reasons.

Not surprising verdict though.

CBC Live Tweets said:
Ghomeshi did not testify. Nor did the defence call any evidence, the judge notes.

This is something many members of the public emailed me about, asking why the Crown did not call him. I'd mentioned before, but it's worth stating again, that the accused has the right not to testify. And Horkins -- or any judge -- cannot hold that against them.

The Crown faces a difficult bar of proof to meet, the judge acknowledged. Because there's no "smoking gun," no physical evidence that the prosecution can point to in order to support the witnesses.

Instead, the court must rely solely on the word of the witnesses, Horkins said.

But it's clear that each witness was "less than full and frank" in their statements to media, police and the court.

More from CBC said:
Ghomeshi is found not guilty on all charges.

Mar 24 2016 11:25 AM The judge said that a reasonable doubt exists in this case.

Mar 24 2016 11:25 AM Their evidence was "tainted by outright deception" and once that happens that witness cannot "have sufficient faith" in the complainants and their truth.

Mar 24 2016 11:24 AM While case law says that the judge also cannot hold post-assault conduct against the complainants, the judge says that, in this case, their behaviour seems "out of harmony" with their statements in court.

"The twists and turns of the complainants' evidence in this trial illustrates the need to be vigilant" in order not fall into the assumption "that sexual assault complainants are always truthful," the judge said.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.

Onemic

Member
Why? You hate the man so much that you want him thrown in jail after one of the most botched and misguided prosecutions you'll ever see? The witnesses tried to hide and lie their way to a conviction and it would have set a horrible precedent if they had won.

Guilty until proven guilty
 
Why? You hate the man so much that you want him thrown in jail after one of the most botched and misguided prosecutions you'll ever see? The witnesses tried to hide and lie their way to a conviction and it would have set a horrible precedent if they had won.

right. I'm angry they botched it and he gets to go free for the time being.
 
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