AncientDiety
Banned
Seems to me MS just don't get PC gaming or PC gamers at all. They just always do things wrong. Then they wonder why their ideas flop hard.
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Durante for PC Gamer: Why PC games should never become universal 'apps'
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
Glitchesarecool
Member
It's really kind of sad that Microsoft is gimping the new market right out of the gate like this. I hope they're taking feedback seriously, because it would be nice for Steam to have real competition.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Great article. I can only help that UWA just becomes another one of Microsoft's many hastily discarded initiatives. Sooner than later.
dancrane212
Member
We all know MS' stance on this but are devs asking for those security features (stopping win32 apps from having so much control of your desktop) that also end up preventing modding and the like? Are the two things even related? I was surprised how much Tim Sweeney seemed down for the UWP (not the store restrictions - the actual platform as opposed to Win32) in the Polygon interview.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Good article. The first part is spot-on, the second takes some historical look to be understood. I mean, I'd be even more harsh in my predictions of ms' UWP vision, but I'm an old fart who's had the dubious pleasure to observe ms' entire lifespan.
Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time to write the article, Durante.
People with a G-Sync display should be aware that although G-Sync mode can be enabled for UWA games, there are reports that there is increased input latency as compared to a standard Win32 application in this mode.
People with a G-Sync display should be aware that although G-Sync mode can be enabled for UWA games, there are reports that there is increased input latency as compared to a standard Win32 application in this mode.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Great article and mirrors what a lot of people were saying in the "XBox joining the universal W10 store" thread. Anyone interested in the technical side of things should take a moment to read.
Dark days for Windows/Xbox gamers.
Dark days for Windows/Xbox gamers.
Mr. Poolman
Member
Thank you for the link.
At this point, PC gamers won't ever be able to repay Durante!
At this point, PC gamers won't ever be able to repay Durante!
BolognaOni
Member
Obviously, Apple is a big reason this is happening. The main difference is, especially with iOS Apple has never been open. Windows on the other hand, always has, so forcing everyone into a closed system at this point is the issue. If they want to create a new closed platform, and try to get people to switch, fine.
Ultimately, I don't think MS is going to be successful with this, but collateral damage along the way is the concern.
cartographer
Member
iOS - Always closed, continues to be closed. Customers have the product they've always had.
Windows - Originally open, but potentially taking steps toward becoming closed. Customers potentially losing the product they've always had.
Fair enough. Apple has now set the precedent that closed stores are the way of the future. It would be a colossal fuck up not to chase that route, thats wayyyyyyyy to much money to not chase.
What's happening here is wrong, full stop, but it will happen.
There is too much money to be made for it not to happen. Might not happen now but it will in the future.
It's bullshit for Apple, too.
Yeah? Here's how you do it for real: you pull a Sony.
You put out Windows Games with Gold first, without tying it to any sort of multiplayer experience. You ask for a small monthly fee, and you give out free PC games. You're not trying anything shady, it's just a subscription for games. Humble Bundle does it, right? It's just like Humble Monthly, no problem!
You keep putting out various UWA games on the store, occasionally slipping one of the older ones into Windows Games with Gold. Now you've got people paying a monthly fee, and some percentage (or most) of those games are UWAs.
Now it's time for the next Halo to come out, and shockingly it's going to be on PC, too! Windows 10 store exclusive! But it has cross-platform play, which you need a Windows Games with Gold account to access. A lot of you already have WGwG, right? It's totally "worth it' to have a WGwG account anyway, so why not go ahead and get one?
roadrunn3r
Member
Great article Durante as always! This topic should get even more visibility and an article like that is a great opportunity to do so.
I honestly don't think this has any chance of working. And thank God for that.
I could see them introducing GWG on Windows 10 though, but online on PC will remain free as it should.
LurkerPrime
Member
Alright, I finally understand this UWP stuff. Great article.
Also: wonderful image choices for the article, (I assume by) Durante.
Also: wonderful image choices for the article, (I assume by) Durante.
Secretly I blame Apple for everything (well, let's say 99% of everything) wrong with computing today.
How can any for-profit company resist that profit margin? It's like back when everyone wanted to be WoW, but now everyone wants to own an app store.
cleveridea
Member
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-is-missing-the-point-the-pc-platform-needs-fixing/
Presumably this article is missing the point which is that at any point in time in the future Microsoft can update the OS or later versions of Windows to remove the less strict options.
Two of the companies you listed will never give up 30% of their software revenue to MS. As such, the Windows Store will never have all productivity software. If MS doesn't relax on UWA installs, Win32 will never be dropped or the companies will go exclusive to OSX
I actually like the Windows Store and UWA apps for a lot of things. The Facebook and Pandora apps are fantastic, for example. I've also grabbed a few free games like Sonic Dash on it.
It's a shame to see all the limitations on them tho. Definitely not something I really want for my PC gaming experience.
It's a shame to see all the limitations on them tho. Definitely not something I really want for my PC gaming experience.
And all they have to do is cite "security" to do it.
ebullientprism
Member
Is there any reason to worry about this if you buy stuff outside of the windows store? I mean is there a possibility that this crap could bleed through and affect games sold through Steam, Uplay etc?
Because if not I think we are worrying about something thats not really gonna be a big problem. If its Windows store only then this thing will die purely by neglect when it comes to PC gamers. Even if it didnt have all the negatives of UWA, Windows store would still have a hell of a hard time trying to sell PC games just because of their history. People will buy uplay stuff before they buy this. GFWL isnt easily forgotten.
For example, I would love to have sales numbers of TR between Steam and the Windows store. And I would be genuinely surprised if the split is anything other than 99.99% to 0.01% between steam and Windows store respectively.
I can understand wanting this garbage to be removed if you want to buy future first party MS games which will not be released on Steam but if you arent too bothered about the odd games MS releases for the PC here and there this doesnt really seem like a threat. More like an annoyance. Like another shitty client by another publisher.
Because if not I think we are worrying about something thats not really gonna be a big problem. If its Windows store only then this thing will die purely by neglect when it comes to PC gamers. Even if it didnt have all the negatives of UWA, Windows store would still have a hell of a hard time trying to sell PC games just because of their history. People will buy uplay stuff before they buy this. GFWL isnt easily forgotten.
For example, I would love to have sales numbers of TR between Steam and the Windows store. And I would be genuinely surprised if the split is anything other than 99.99% to 0.01% between steam and Windows store respectively.
I can understand wanting this garbage to be removed if you want to buy future first party MS games which will not be released on Steam but if you arent too bothered about the odd games MS releases for the PC here and there this doesnt really seem like a threat. More like an annoyance. Like another shitty client by another publisher.
family_guy
Member
They largely won't become universal apps. It's mostly just the Microsoft owned properties and they have every right to publish them as they see fit. For third party games like Rise of the Tomb Raider you have more than one place to buy it from. I really don't think it's the sign of the apocalypse just because a few games that you wouldn't have had the option to play otherwise on PC are universal apps.
Suzushiiro
Banned
There's no way they would force use of the store for any application on Windows, though. It would completely break backward compatibility with decades of legacy apps (which is arguably the primary reason why it's used in the enthusiast/enterprise space) and generally destroy everything that makes Windows an appealing platform in the first place. They'll do whatever they can to encourage people to enter the new walled garden they set up, and would ideally like every consumer/developer to use it over standard win32 (though I'm sure even they know that's a pipe dream,) but it would be straight-up suicide for them to put up walls around their existing ecosystem.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Try tinkering with them and see if your game still works.
Better yet, try tinkering with them and see if Windows lets you. I've found that the only way to modify these files is to BOOT INTO ANOTHER OS ENTIRELY.
LurkerPrime
Member
Unless I'm misunderstanding, if it gains enough traction it become the world's new favourite DRM scheme; it's essentially a new (proprietary) take on .exe files and installs in general.
So, yeah. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Intentionally releasing an inferior service seems to be the Microsoft way when it comes to PC gaming. They continue to completely misread the PC gaming market. The scary thing with this though is that if the console market buys into this (referring to the unified X1/PC thing) it may actually be successful.
Hamster Plugin
Member
That's why I buy Android phones and tablets.
What's worrying is the leverage Microsoft has that EA can't have: Microsoft handles the OS, and if they feel like adoption is being too slow yet people are still primarily playing on PC they can be more heavy handed and start making it harder, if not outright impossible, to release and run games on newer versions of Windows without getting the UWA version. At which point you're essentially left with a customizable build-your-own console, rather than a more open platform where you can tinker with games if you really want to or make sure they can still run rather than having issues like with iOS where it just doesn't work anymore and that's that.
Hell, you can even blame things that were merely influenced by Apple as being acceptable design rather than straight up wanting their profit margins, saves being tied with game files on 3DS could possibly be tied to iOS, while Vita can almost certainly be blamed on phones given how the PSP was better there (and likely both are highly concerned about piracy, but then backed off that angle with Wii U and PS4 anyway thus kind of arbitrarily screwing over handhelds.)
ebullientprism
Member
Yeah but how will it gain traction? As an anti piracy measure? Denuvo already does this on a platform PC gamers are willing to buy on and it seems pretty airtight. I just cannot see PC gamers buying from the Windows store in enough numbers for it to ever matter.
Its such a dead platform.
Only if it actually becomes popular. And over a long period of time.
I posted an example scenario of what could conceivably happen in the Tim Sweeney thread:
There certainly won't be any sudden introduction of heavy restrictions, that would cause the frog to jump out of the water.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Apple doesn't enforce these types of restrictions in OS X. It's just their mobile platform that they are restrictive about.
We can talk about whether or not iOS should be restricted, but certainly the use-case for a mobile operating system is a lot more limited. You don't really need as much control.
Edit: Well, the latest version of OS X does have System Integrity Protection, which is kind of similar, but it's pretty easy to turn off and once you do, it will never bother you again.
Dinky Dino
Member
Man, I wish I didn't have to use the Windows Store because I don't want to support this stuff... But I really can't miss Killer InstinctIt's the one and only game I'll buy that is a "UWA".
It's fine m8 the rest of us will hold off for you
This article is a bit cruel though. He pretty much exposed everything even this fact: "their primary strategic objective is to make sure that UWP and the Windows store is a success, not that gaming on PC is as good for enthusiasts as it can be"
Which I agree with. The games and everything are just bait in the end. Their forza game is just an experiment to see if they can nickel and dime people instead of giving a full game package and we all know halo: online is the halo equivalent of forza apex since they don't want to drop a full halo game vs one with micro transactions. That's the future MS wants imo.
Nope. They were doing things right between the death of GFWL and W10.
AoE II HD, Rise of Nations, Ori and the Blind Forest and some other games on steam.
Curious - what's your stance on UWP for competitive games? Because the way I see it - most of the restrictions directly benefit these games which are riddled with cheats and other exploits across the board.Durante said:
I also ask this because competitive games are the types where mods aren't welcome either, and content tends to live as long as the service does, so preservation is usually not a concern either.
Granted - if the platform takes off, hacking efforts will invariably turn against it - but it still means an extra layer of security to defeat (depending on how committed MS will be to it that is - they could certainly make this "very" painful for the cheat makers).
rottendevice
Member
Thank you OP. I read the article.
I think Microsoft, as a video game publisher, has a right to protect their intellectual property. If that means a non-standard (specifically non-EXE) PC application that's distributed through an official Microsoft store, they're allowed to do so. Additionally, UWA sounds like a set of tools for making software, not unlike CryEngine or Unity. Microsoft should be allowed to use and promote using these tools, even if it means something like lack of mod support in games.
What would be unacceptable is if Microsoft would one day force all Windows apps to be made with the UWA toolset, and sold through an official Windows store. But that is ridiculous. We're too far down the Windows PC path too assume that could happen. For one, developers wouldn't stand for it. If you're already familiar with a different toolset (or have built one in-house), you wouldn't suddenly want to learn something different. I don't think gamers would stand for it either. Valve has made a big push to make Linux a strong platform for games, and you can currently get over 1500 Steam games on Linux (including big name games like Borderlands). If Windows became closed and proprietary like iOS, I think gamers would jump ship to Linux (or maybe Mac).
To make Windows a walled-garden-type platform would be doing a disservice to a large number of people who buy Windows: PC gamers. I just don't see it happening.
I think Microsoft, as a video game publisher, has a right to protect their intellectual property. If that means a non-standard (specifically non-EXE) PC application that's distributed through an official Microsoft store, they're allowed to do so. Additionally, UWA sounds like a set of tools for making software, not unlike CryEngine or Unity. Microsoft should be allowed to use and promote using these tools, even if it means something like lack of mod support in games.
What would be unacceptable is if Microsoft would one day force all Windows apps to be made with the UWA toolset, and sold through an official Windows store. But that is ridiculous. We're too far down the Windows PC path too assume that could happen. For one, developers wouldn't stand for it. If you're already familiar with a different toolset (or have built one in-house), you wouldn't suddenly want to learn something different. I don't think gamers would stand for it either. Valve has made a big push to make Linux a strong platform for games, and you can currently get over 1500 Steam games on Linux (including big name games like Borderlands). If Windows became closed and proprietary like iOS, I think gamers would jump ship to Linux (or maybe Mac).
To make Windows a walled-garden-type platform would be doing a disservice to a large number of people who buy Windows: PC gamers. I just don't see it happening.
SunBroDave
Member
Ding ding ding that is exactly the fear.
As do I.
The user experience matters guys.
Let's be honest Windows has become a dumping ground for years. Malware, virus, companies piggy backing crap apps on top of apps. I don't think it'll ever be as closed as ios, but if they don't improve the expirenece it will falter further.
UWA is a solid step in that direction. Let's hope they can find a way to keep PC Gamers happy.
My stance on competitive games is that they need server-side verification (which includes not making information available to clients that the player is not supposed to have, rendering e.g. wallhacks useless).
Everything else is ultimately just security through obscurity.
cleveridea
Member
I bet Microsoft wishes they had a strong mobile market share, versus low single digits worldwide.
By being almost irrelevant it takes away a strong selling point of their universal platform.
By being almost irrelevant it takes away a strong selling point of their universal platform.
Krappadizzle
Member
AncientDiety
Banned
Yet Ensemble is now closed. Releasing a couple games on steam does not mean they are doing things right when it comes to PC>
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