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Nintendo NX rumored to use Nvidia's Pascal GPU architecture

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C

Cow Mengde

Banned
The Boat said:
Ignoring the fact that these are usually very limited games with smoke and mirrors, I very much doubt you can play something like the second one for more than 4 hours on a phone without the battery dying.
Click to expand...

I own the device. I will admit my timing might be off since there's no in game clock. I'll try and benchmark it as best as I can over the weekend. I do play with the bightness at the lowest with WiFi turned off. Not like WiFi does anything for the game unless you play multiplayer. NOVA 3 despite being free, is a console FPS game experience on mobile. I'm lucky I have dual analog.

The upper game is a complete MOBA. Big LOL ripoff. I never played LOL, but this game is packed with features. I compared some info and it doesn't sound like it's missing anything. The character models are actually better than LOL.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
MuchoMalo said:
I realized this after that post, hence my response above.

Either way, that makes it physically impossible for NX to have more than 4GB of RAM unless they somehow stuff a 128-bit bus in there.
Click to expand...

I think you mean 6 GB, right? I know Samsung have 48 gigabit lpDDR4 modules listed on their website w/ a 64 bit interface. The dev kits could have any amount greater than retail, but they wouldn't be restricted by space or anything like that.

Price is definitely a concern, but Nintendo have shown they like to splurge on RAM in the past. Actually, with their track record, I half expect them to include some type of boutique RAM we've never even heard of. They also seem to like partnering with other Japanese companies when it makes sense (Fujitsu, Renesas, DMP for the 3DS GPU).
 
H

HowardRoark

Member
Shogmaster said:
GPD XD is not just "more powerful" than Vita.

GPD XD has quad core ARM A17 CPU clocked over 1.4 GHz + quad core Mali T760 clocked over 500MHz working with 2GB of RAM.

PS Vita meanwhile has much older quad core ARM A9 CPU capped at 444 MHz + quad core PowerVR SGX543 MP4+ capped to 222 MHz working with less than 700MB of RAM.

GPD XD simply destroys the Vita. Shits on it from the sky.

But GPD still manages great battery life compared to Vita because Vita's SoC is 40nm while the Rockchip in the GPD XD is 28nm. Not helping Vita is the fact that the battery in the Vita is only 2200 mAH while the GPD XD has 6000 mAH monster.

Bar to beat for NX is definitely the GPD XD.
Click to expand...

How have I never heard of the GPD XD?! It sounds amazing in that it supports PC game streaming like the Shield.
 
T

Thraktor

Member
Donnie said:
Whether you disagree or not that isn't what Thraktor said (that it could at best it could maybe match XBox One).
Click to expand...

To clarify, what I said was that if

a) The NX SoC had a GPU on the upper end of what I'd consider feasible (i.e. 3x SM)
and
b) Clocks increase while docked (so power draw ~4-5W, still passively cooled)
and
c) The game in question runs on an engine which heavily favours Nvidia hardware (UE4)
and
d) The considerably majority of the game's shader workload can be run in 16-bit precision
and
e) The game isn't bottlenecked in any other way

then that game could, conceivably, get better performance on NX than XBO.

It's important to note that the reason I used UE4 as an example is that it's likely the best-case-scenario for a multi-platform engine that would run well on NX:


  • It performs significantly better on Nvidia GPUs than AMD (~60% better performance per Tflop on PC).
  • It has full Vulkan support, so it should be able to get up and running with decent performance relatively quickly on NX.
  • It has an existing mobile build where all pixel shaders run in 16-bit precision. Enabling this on NX would dramatically increase shader throughput.
Even if a large portion of Nvidia's UE4 advantage on PC is driver-related, I would still expect UE4 games to run significantly better on NX than on "equivalent" AMD hardware.
 
J

joesiv

Member
frankie_baby said:
dev kits don't need double ram they just need more ram, the wii u dev kit has 3gb and retail units 2gb, so I could easily 4gb for nx
Click to expand...

Also, there is a possibility that the OS could run on a separate core with separate memory. So who knows maybe 4GB's of game memory could be possible.

Who knows; but the more memory the better!
 
C

Cow Mengde

Banned
HowardRoark said:
How have I never heard of the GPD XD?! It sounds amazing in that it supports PC game streaming like the Shield.
Click to expand...

The Shield is still much more powerful, but the GPD is no slouch. It's only $150. There are other even more powerful Chinese android tablet game systems that costs $200+
 
Schnozberry

Schnozberry

Member
Fourth Storm said:
I think you mean 6 GB, right? I know Samsung have 48 gigabit lpDDR4 modules listed on their website w/ a 64 bit interface. The dev kits could have any amount greater than retail, but they wouldn't be restricted by space or anything like that.

Price is definitely a concern, but Nintendo have shown they like to splurge on RAM in the past. Actually, with their track record, I half expect them to include some type of boutique RAM we've never even heard of. They also seem to like partnering with other Japanese companies when it makes sense (Fujitsu, Renesas, DMP for the 3DS GPU).
Click to expand...

There aren't too many small players in Memory anymore. Micron has been buying up a lot of startups that were trying to innovate in the Embedded RAM Space, but couldn't quite get traction. They now own the patent portfolios for T-RAM and Z-RAM, which were ambitious products similar to the 1T-SRAM used in the Gamecube years ago, except even better density and speed on modern lithography.
 
Schnozberry

Schnozberry

Member
Retromelon said:
some more linkedIn nuggets have been unearthed
Nintendo working on a Handheld & Console, more info!
Click to expand...

LoxOEYK.gif
 
blu

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Retromelon said:
some more linkedIn nuggets have been unearthed
Nintendo working on a Handheld & Console, more info!
Click to expand...
There's so much grasping at straws in this video the author could literally build themselves a thatched roof.

examples: Xilinx is a major FPGA vendor, nothing to do with clouds; engineers working with multiple semiconductor vendors - every goddamend piece of electronics under the sun is made of parts by multiple vendors - that wording just signifies the person had likely multiple responsibilities on the project(s).
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
Retromelon said:
some more linkedIn nuggets have been unearthed
Nintendo working on a Handheld & Console, more info!
Click to expand...
These Youtube conspiracy theorists are getting silly. I'm open to a dedicated home console in the future from Nintendo, but why would they use a different vendor and even ISA? Makes zero sense.
Schnozberry said:
There aren't too many small players in Memory anymore. Micron has been buying up a lot of startups that were trying to innovate in the Embedded RAM Space, but couldn't quite get traction. They now own the patent portfolios for T-RAM and Z-RAM, which were ambitious products similar to the 1T-SRAM used in the Gamecube years ago, except even better density and speed on modern lithography.
Click to expand...

Ah, I didn't know they own those patents now. But yeah, when I said half expect, I really meant to say, "It's Nintendo, so you never know." I expect them to use Samsung, Micron, or Hynix for RAM. They may want to multisource, as they did with Wii U.
 
N

NateDrake

Member
blu said:
There's so much grasping at straws in this video the author could literally build themselves a thatched roof.

examples: Xilinx is a major FPGA vendor, nothing to do with clouds; engineers working with multiple semiconductor vendors - every goddamend piece of electronics under the sun is made of parts by multiple vendors - that wording just signifies the person had likely multiple responsibilities on the project(s).
Click to expand...

Never mind the other things like "Worked on Nintendo consoles and handhelds" and the video producer doesn't even flirt with the idea that this individual may have worked on Wii/DS or Wii U/3DS. They immediately leap to NX. It's easy to make outlandish claims when you focus on one minor aspect.

Fourth Storm said:
These Youtube conspiracy theorists are getting silly. I'm open to a dedicated home console in the future from Nintendo, but why would they use a different vendor and even ISA? Makes zero sense.
Click to expand...
That's logical reasoning. If Nintendo changed vendors and services, then NX is going to be no different than Wii U/3DS in the end. We know that they want to change that entire concept. But it's easier to make clickbait videos. I don't mind the discussion, but folks need to present facts and not words from Linkedin to make a case for themselves based on no evidence.
 
M

MDave

Member
Thraktor said:
To clarify, what I said was that if

a) The NX SoC had a GPU on the upper end of what I'd consider feasible (i.e. 3x SM)
and
b) Clocks increase while docked (so power draw ~4-5W, still passively cooled)
and
c) The game in question runs on an engine which heavily favours Nvidia hardware (UE4)
and
d) The considerably majority of the game's shader workload can be run in 16-bit precision
and
e) The game isn't bottlenecked in any other way

then that game could, conceivably, get better performance on NX than XBO.

It's important to note that the reason I used UE4 as an example is that it's likely the best-case-scenario for a multi-platform engine that would run well on NX:


  • It performs significantly better on Nvidia GPUs than AMD (~60% better performance per Tflop on PC).
  • It has full Vulkan support, so it should be able to get up and running with decent performance relatively quickly on NX.
  • It has an existing mobile build where all pixel shaders run in 16-bit precision. Enabling this on NX would dramatically increase shader throughput.
Even if a large portion of Nvidia's UE4 advantage on PC is driver-related, I would still expect UE4 games to run significantly better on NX than on "equivalent" AMD hardware.
Click to expand...

This is all what I believe too. And then there is the Pascal leak (which suggests 16nm) as a great milestone if they can get that in there instead of a custom 20nm X1, without having to cut down on features for acceptable power draw. They have until next year for that to be ready for mass production? I'd say time line wise that matches up quite well.

I really do hope the 6 month delay was so they can get better chips. More software ready for launch is also a good reason, but I think the 2 factors together driving a 6 month delay makes sense to Nintendo. Other components would be cheaper by then too. It's what everyone would of wanted anyway I believe. No point rushing to make it to holiday season with less games, lesser power.
 
Schnozberry

Schnozberry

Member
Fourth Storm said:
Ah, I didn't know they own those patents now. But yeah, when I said half expect, I really meant to say, "It's Nintendo, so you never know." I expect them to use Samsung, Micron, or Hynix for RAM. They may want to multisource, as they did with Wii U.
Click to expand...

Personally, I hope they just use wide bus LPDDR4 and cram as many shaders as possible onto the SOC, but that's just me. Exotic embedded memory doesn't make much sense unless they are doing stacked DRAM or something, which wouldn't really fit into this cost envelope.
 
P

Peterc

Member
So, i just read that the pascal chip is confirmed by DirectFeedGames?

I've missed that.

Do have already more info about it? How strong it would be, ect....
 
M

MuchoMalo

Banned
Fourth Storm said:
I think you mean 6 GB, right? I know Samsung have 48 gigabit lpDDR4 modules listed on their website w/ a 64 bit interface. The dev kits could have any amount greater than retail, but they wouldn't be restricted by space or anything like that.

Price is definitely a concern, but Nintendo have shown they like to splurge on RAM in the past. Actually, with their track record, I half expect them to include some type of boutique RAM we've never even heard of. They also seem to like partnering with other Japanese companies when it makes sense (Fujitsu, Renesas, DMP for the 3DS GPU).
Click to expand...

I mean 4GB because they'd need 6GB in the dev kits for debugging.

Thraktor said:
The 3DS is a mobile device with a 128 bit bus.
Click to expand...

...

walks off the stage

Still, I'm not sure if it could work with a Tegra unless they only use 1 SM, in which case they wouldn't need the bus in the first place.

Peterc said:
So, i just read that the pascal chip is confirmed by DirectFeedGames?

I've missed that.

Do have already more info about it? How strong it would be, ect....
Click to expand...

Grats on reading the OP! :p Just assume that it'll be used solely to get power consumption down and that it won't be as fast as the X1.
 
T

tronic307

Member
MuchoMalo said:
I realized this after that post, hence my response above.

Either way, that makes it physically impossible for NX to have more than 4GB of RAM unless they somehow stuff a 128-bit bus in there.
Click to expand...
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the 3DS already had a 128-bit memory bus, and the only reason Wii U's was 64-bit was that the Wii's memory bus was 64-bit.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
MuchoMalo said:
I mean 4GB because they'd need 6GB in the dev kits for debugging.
Click to expand...

Even if the memory bus was an issue (as the posters above displayed, it shouldn't be--also add the Iphone 6s to that list), one can increase memory capacity without widening the bus. This may have changed since, but the launch PS4 has twice as many RAM chips as it would need to properly feed a 256-bit bus. But in dev kits, the extra memory probably has its own bus anyway. It's probably not a pretty sight, but it's functional, and for dev kits, that's what matters.
 
S

Skittzo0413

Member
Peterc said:
So, i just read that the pascal chip is confirmed by DirectFeedGames?

I've missed that.

Do have already more info about it? How strong it would be, ect....
Click to expand...

Yeah that's the OP of this thread. Pascal simply means that the GPU is on a 16nm process, rather than Maxwell's 20nm process, and some posts in this thread have indicated that this means the GPU is theoretically 60% more power efficient, AKA draws 60% less power at the same clock rates.

How this translates to power is unknown at this point, but many in this thread have done calculations and estimations, and so far it seems like the general consensus is that the NX handheld will be 2 or more times more powerful than the Wii U in portable mode (accounting for architectural differences) and if the dock allows the portable to be upclocked as it no longer relies on battery power (which I personally think will happen- to what extent is the issue) it could be anywhere from 500GFlops (~4x Wii U) to close to 1TF, which would put it fairly close to Xbox One levels.

All of these factors depend on the exact size of the portable, the screen size, screen resolution, the size of the battery, whether or not active cooling is included, whether or not the dock has any hardware besides an AC adapter and an HDMI out, and many, many other factors.

TL;DR: Should be more power efficient than a TX1, beyond that we don't know anything with any level of certainty.
 
P

Peterc

Member
Skittzo0413 said:
Yeah that's the OP of this thread. Pascal simply means that the GPU is on a 16nm process, rather than Maxwell's 20nm process, and some posts in this thread have indicated that this means the GPU is theoretically 60% more power efficient, AKA draws 60% less power at the same clock rates.

How this translates to power is unknown at this point, but many in this thread have done calculations and estimations, and so far it seems like the general consensus is that the NX handheld will be 2 or more times more powerful than the Wii U in portable mode (accounting for architectural differences) and if the dock allows the portable to be upclocked as it no longer relies on battery power (which I personally think will happen- to what extent is the issue) it could be anywhere from 500GFlops (~4x Wii U) to close to 1TF, which would put it fairly close to Xbox One levels.

All of these factors depend on the exact size of the portable, the screen size, screen resolution, the size of the battery, whether or not active cooling is included, whether or not the dock has any hardware besides an AC adapter and an HDMI out, and many, many other factors.

TL;DR: Should be more power efficient than a TX1, beyond that we don't know anything with any level of certainty.
Click to expand...


Thanks, that brings some other questions:

I'm not a gamer on the go. I mostly play at home with my handheld or somewhere else that isn't outside. Would it be possible to connect the nx handheld on the power supply so i would have full power?


When running on battery, could they add an option switch to still run the handheld on full power? Even if it drains your battery.
 
S

Skittzo0413

Member
Peterc said:
Thanks, that brings some other questions:

I'm not a gamer on the go. I mostly play at home with my handheld or somewhere else that isn't outside. Would it be possible to connect the nx handheld on the power supply so i would have full power?


When running on battery, could they add an option switch to still run the handheld on full power? Even if it drains your battery.
Click to expand...

Your first scenario seems somewhat likely to me, unless the NX handheld does indeed require active cooling from the dock to be able to reach those clock speeds.

Your second scenario is theoretically possible, sure, but I really don't see Nintendo allowing that. It would eat through your battery far too quickly.

Also it wouldn't be necessary if we're assuming a 540p screen (which I'm like 75% on) and upclocking by ~4x to be able to output similar visuals at 1080p. Both of those being large assumptions backed up by nothing but speculation, of course.
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
You know, I only play PS Vita during my summer hols, and have just doing so for the last week. The resolution is more than fine for portable gaming. It is really very sharp, so unless Nintendo goes for a bigger screen, PS Vita resolution on the go and 1080P home should be perfect.

And this comes from someone who hates 3DS and Wii U pad resolutions.
 
P

Peterc

Member
So many developers that are working on the nx and still no image leaks or even a sketch of how it (not maybe)would be.

@Chittagong: I think this time we could more expect something like gba.

I expect one of these:

brkbab10-nx-mockup-1200x630-c.jpg


http://icdn7.digitaltrends.com/image/edge-8-970x647-c.jpg
https://sickr.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/nx_mockup1.jpg?w=480&h=320&crop=1
http://images.nintendolife.com/news..._a_portable_handset/attachment/0/original.jpg


I also wondering if nintendo would add some kind of new button systeem showed in their patent:

Nintendo-NX-Patent-5-200x200.png

It could function as a 3d stick, but also as buttons. They could place it on the left side of the controller as a dpad replacement. But when detached, you can use it as buttons.
Another solution is that you can switch parts, like somekind of placeholders where you can slide controlls in like (buttons,dpad,....).
They have also a patent for that:
http://www.cubed3.com/media/2014/May/interchange2.jpg

I don't think there is no other options beside toughscreen, but we don't want that.
 
G

Graphics Horse

Member
Chittagong said:
You know, I only play PS Vita during my summer hols, and have just doing so for the last week. The resolution is more than fine for portable gaming. It is really very sharp, so unless Nintendo goes for a bigger screen, PS Vita resolution on the go and 1080P home should be perfect.

And this comes from someone who hates 3DS and Wii U pad resolutions.
Click to expand...

It is but if this thing has a 5 inch screen I'll eat my 3DS

This controller is about the width of a phone with 5 inch screen.

U5xlDWJ.jpg
 
G

G.ZZZ

Member
Skittzo0413 said:
Your first scenario seems somewhat likely to me, unless the NX handheld does indeed require active cooling from the dock to be able to reach those clock speeds.

Your second scenario is theoretically possible, sure, but I really don't see Nintendo allowing that. It would eat through your battery far too quickly.

Also it wouldn't be necessary if we're assuming a 540p screen (which I'm like 75% on) and upclocking by ~4x to be able to output similar visuals at 1080p. Both of those being large assumptions backed up by nothing but speculation, of course.
Click to expand...

The issue on going full power in handheld mode, aside from the AC, is that the screen would be active and it's a significant power draw/thermal constraint. For a 5" device with a 6.5" total form factor , i'd go for a 6W or so maximum possible wattage and the screen would consume 1.5W. It simply wouldn't be able to clock as fast as in docked mode because you have that power draw too. Even with active cooling, in general it's a significant difference in wattage. I think that even in AC mode not docked the console will stay locked at mobile specs.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
Yeah, I really want to know what these controllers look like. I can't see Nintendo realistically including GB Micro sized controllers with this thing. Or maybe they will and make us buy other controllers/shells like they have the last 2 gens. I don't know. So many questions.
 
O

ozfunghi

Member
Soooo... i just bought an Android media box, with a quad core A53 with 2GB RAM and 8 GB ROM.... for €29 including shipping from China to EU. There was a 1GB version that was €5 cheaper.

How much more expensive would it be for Nintendo to go with A72 instead of A53?
 
P

Peterc

Member
ozfunghi said:
Soooo... i just bought an Android media box, with a quad core A53 with 2GB RAM and 8 GB ROM.... for €29 including shipping from China to EU. There was a 1GB version that was €5 cheaper.

How much more expensive would it be for Nintendo to go with A72 instead of A53?
Click to expand...

ripoff :p
 
O

Oregano

Member
Well I think it's pretty plausible they go bigger than usual for the device. The XLs are by far the more popular 3DSs and going bigger allows them to be more powerful and have a bigger battery. It also works as a differentiator from Smartphones; they're not going to win the battle for pocket space.
 
S

Skittzo0413

Member
G.ZZZ said:
The issue on going full power in handheld mode, aside from the AC, is that the screen would be active and it's a significant power draw/thermal constraint. For a 5" device with a 6.5" total form factor , i'd go for a 6W or so maximum possible wattage and the screen would consume 1.5W. It simply wouldn't be able to clock as fast as in docked mode because you have that power draw too. Even with active cooling, in general it's a significant difference in wattage. I think that even in AC mode not docked the console will stay locked at mobile specs.
Click to expand...

Excellent point, I keep forgetting that the screen will likely be turned off in dock mode.
 
blu

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
The one question that's been bugging me is how will they provide for an as-seamless-as-possible transition from docked to undocked mode, and vice versa, in the context of two distinctive sets of assets. Potential options:

1) No seamless transition - (un)docking while a game is running effectively gets you to a loading screen as the game switches from one set of assets to another. Another way to look at that would be a soft reset transition - the game literally saves and restarts from the save point in the new mode.
2) Somewhat seamless transition - (un)docking triggers a short transitional period where the game tries to gradually transition to the new mode by evicting old assets and streaming in new assets. Performance suffers, particularly in the docked->undocked direction.
 
G

Ganondolf

Member
blu said:
The one question that's been bugging me is how will they provide for an as-seamless-as-possible transition from docked to undocked mode, and vice versa, in the context of two distinctive sets of assets. Potential options:

1) No seamless transition - (un)docking while a game is running effectively gets you to a loading screen as the game switches from one set of assets to another. Another way to look at that would be a soft reset transition - the game literally saves and restarts from the save point in the new mode.
2) Somewhat seamless transition - (un)docking triggers a short transitional period where the game tries to gradually transition to the new mode by evicting old assets and streaming in new assets. Performance suffers, particularly in the docked->undocked direction.
Click to expand...

Maybe when you detach the unit a NX logo splash screen appears for a couple of seconds as the game loads the assets.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
blu said:
The one question that's been bugging me is how will they provide for an as-seamless-as-possible transition from docked to undocked mode, and vice versa, in the context of two distinctive sets of assets. Potential options:

1) No seamless transition - (un)docking while a game is running effectively gets you to a loading screen as the game switches from one set of assets to another. Another way to look at that would be a soft reset transition - the game literally saves and restarts from the save point in the new mode.
2) Somewhat seamless transition - (un)docking triggers a short transitional period where the game tries to gradually transition to the new mode by evicting old assets and streaming in new assets. Performance suffers, particularly in the docked->undocked direction.
Click to expand...




I'm mainly wondering about touch controls when transitioning from docked to not. Is it possible the 'home mode' has its own processing and allows the handheld to stay in your hand as a controller - like a wiiU?
 
G

Ganondolf

Member
Durante said:
So you are expecting an actual asset difference?
Click to expand...

I would think it would be better to have 1080p assets and scale them down as having 2 sets of assets will limit the space on the game card which is already less than the blue Ray disk used in the hdtwins.
 
G

G.ZZZ

Member
blu said:
The one question that's been bugging me is how will they provide for an as-seamless-as-possible transition from docked to undocked mode, and vice versa, in the context of two distinctive sets of assets. Potential options:

1) No seamless transition - (un)docking while a game is running effectively gets you to a loading screen as the game switches from one set of assets to another. Another way to look at that would be a soft reset transition - the game literally saves and restarts from the save point in the new mode.
2) Somewhat seamless transition - (un)docking triggers a short transitional period where the game tries to gradually transition to the new mode by evicting old assets and streaming in new assets. Performance suffers, particularly in the docked->undocked direction.
Click to expand...

When you change resolution in a PC game you're not soft-resetting or anything. There's a brief load and then it's all fine. Why would expect this to be different?
 
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