Support NeoGAF

[Woopah]

“Balls”, meaning you know, actually COMPETE, or at the very least PRETEND to, in the hardware space.

You all go on and on about nintendos profit margins and success, yet they can’t invest in a more powerful home console, WHILE still offering switch 2. Nah, they’d rather give you waggle only controls in a re wrapped GameCube.

Let’s face it, they have their balls. For all their success they wont even attempt to compete with PlayStation/ Xbox hardware spec wise. Their games are “10’s”, correct? People would buy a 400 current spe LLC home console, oh wait they were already paying 300 for a glorified handheld with Atari specs and a 720p screen.

It's a strategic choice, they believe that the flexibility offered by a hybrid format is more valued by customers than power. Therefore they go with the strategy they think will be most successful for them

It's not about "balls", its about strategy.

It would be like saying that Sony doesn't have the balls to put their first party game on PC day 1 like Microsoft does, or that Microsoft doesn't have the balls to offer local multiplayer out of the box like Nintendo does.

 

[Bernkastel]

Switch 2 > Series S.

LMAO, we ain't get anywhere close to a portable Series S with anything our current tech allows at a reasonable power draw and price. At best you will get something like Steam Deck or maybe slightly more powerful.

While the XSS is usually hated I think MS should do a handheld based on it

You still have to account for the 70 W power draw due to that 4 TF GPU.

 

[onnextflix5]

dose the x2 have Dlss? It don’t have ray tracing, not that there is any point adding it to a 15w chip. Let’s just hope they get the Dlss 2. As it will be game changer on a portable handheld.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Nintendo doesn't care for pixel perfect emulation at all. The shoddy work of N64 emulation on Switch is proof enough of that. When it comes to emulation Nintendo has always been of the good enough mindset. Switching upscalers is trivial compared to the visual artifacts that they have had in the past. This is of course assuming they don't stick with Nvidia or that Nvidia doesn't allow for the emulation of whatever DLSS implementation they use for the future.

FSR and DLSS both have the same power drop when used on Nvidia cards (assuming the FPS has a cap). Whatever the difference is, it appears to be tiny.

FSR vs DLSS from a few years back is useless, both technologies have been updated since then (especially DLSS). Hardware Unboxed has recent coverage and at resolutions below 4k FSR looses bad, across numerous games. Everyone is making conclusions in favour of Nvidia as DLSS is simply the better technology, it's not just DF.

And Jedi Survivor is not the only console game with issues, Forspoken has the same problems, because both games are scaling up from ~720p resolutions which FSR just can't handle, while DLSS can. Motion clarity with FSR at low resolutions is just a mess.

What Nintendo are prepared to sell on to customers as "good enough", is a different story to what they expect to retain rights to, and binding the artistic merits of the the final pixel of their games to some third party technology just seems so far fetched, and completely un-Nintendo ninja lawyer.

The basis off inference - guessing - versus scaling are still the same whether FSR1 vs DLSS1 or later versions , and all you are doing by side-stepping addressing the lack of PSNR scientific measurement aspect of a comparison is doing the "trust me!" angle - while still projecting that DLSS is superior.

Motion clarity is still not being measured, and is being done by opinion and despite probably preferring results of DLSS myself, we did have a entire generation of failed sRGB gamma correction on Xbox 360 games - versus PS3 - that were wrongly deemed by the same DF as superior, so naturally, without proper measurement, even the motion clarity vs native is still far from conclusive, and just opinions at this stage, which is dangerous when talking about companies that give away £2000 GPUs liberally for favourable reviewing outlets as standard.

 

[Ozriel]

They can make it capable, but Nintendo might have those units disabled to get the silicon cheaper from defects, or just to make the chip run cooler and draw less power.

It pays Nintendo massively to have the Switch 2 able to run ports from the PS5/Series gen. They’ll push for performance this cycle.

They’re already in a situation where they’re missing out on AAA Japanese games. That’s not something they’ll want to happen, going forward. DLSS can go a long way to ensure those titles run on the console

 

[Zathalus]

What Nintendo are prepared to sell on to customers as "good enough", is a different story to what they expect to retain rights to, and binding the artistic merits of the the final pixel of their games to some third party technology just seems so far fetched, and completely un-Nintendo ninja lawyer.

The basis off inference - guessing - versus scaling are still the same whether FSR1 vs DLSS1 or later versions , and all you are doing by side-stepping addressing the lack of PSNR scientific measurement aspect of a comparison is doing the "trust me!" angle - while still projecting that DLSS is superior.

Motion clarity is still not being measured, and is being done by opinion and despite probably preferring results of DLSS myself, we did have a entire generation of failed sRGB gamma correction on Xbox 360 games - versus PS3 - that were wrongly deemed by the same DF as superior, so naturally, without proper measurement, even the motion clarity vs native is still far from conclusive, and just opinions at this stage, which is dangerous when talking about companies that give away £2000 GPUs liberally for favourable reviewing outlets as standard.

Right, you are implying that DLSS is not better then FSR by a frankly huge margin at low resolutions. I'm not going to further argue this point, the evidence from dozens of outlets, reddit, and this forum speak for itself. If you can't agree on that point, then further debate is pointless.

 

[IDKFA]

That's not achievable in a handheld form factor with current process technology.

Just need to work on the power supply and boom. We have a portable series S. I know it's a bit bulky, but I'm sure they can shave a few inches off there and there.

Checkmate, Firefly.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Right, you are implying that DLSS is not better then FSR by a frankly huge margin at low resolutions. I'm not going to further argue this point, the evidence from dozens of outlets, reddit, and this forum speak for itself. If you can't agree on that point, then further debate is pointless.

I can imply whatever - although the context is on a small screened handheld smaller than the SteamDeck which is way too heavy for 5year olds with a 720p screen that large - but until I make a definitive statement based on the comparison for the numerical PSNR numbers my view is flexible.

It seems you really have an issue with measuring the image quality scientifically - in fear that my assumption that incorrect pleasant "guesses" end up classified as noise in the DLSS to native comparison that proves my assumption correct.

Only science facts speak for themselves, everything else is minority opinion, split or commonly regarded opinion - based on surveying opinion in blind tests from a large enough sample set.

While writing this reply it has dawned on me that on one hand you are arguing that Nintendo are happy to sell ports in any state- so FSR is ample -, yet at the same time arguing they would give up free licensing of a open technology - that produces result that are totally predictable/calculable should they change the game native resolution on a port - in favour of a proprietary black box licensed technology they'd have to pay for every time.

 

[FireFly]

Just need to work on the power supply and boom. We have a portable series S. I know it's a bit bulky, but I'm sure they can shave a few inches off there and there.

Checkmate, Firefly.

Yes, portable, not handheld.

 

[CrustyBritches]

in favour of a proprietary black box licensed technology they'd have to pay for every time.

While the Switch 2 will have the ability to use DLSS, Nintendo will probably be using their own AI upscaling they patented a couple years ago.

Nintendo might be working on a DLSS-like technology for the Nintendo Switch

Even after Nintendo announced the Switch OLED model, many kept believing the game company would launch a 4K Switch due to reports claiming developers are creating games...

www.techspot.com

 

[hinch7]

I can imply whatever - although the context is on a small screened handheld smaller than the SteamDeck which is way too heavy for 5year olds with a 720p screen that large - but until I make a definitive statement based on the comparison for the numerical PSNR numbers my view is flexible.

It seems you really have an issue with measuring the image quality scientifically - in fear that my assumption that incorrect pleasant "guesses" end up classified as noise in the DLSS to native comparison that proves my assumption correct.

Only science facts speak for themselves, everything else is minority opinion, split or commonly regarded opinion - based on surveying opinion in blind tests from a large enough sample set.

While writing this reply it has dawned on me that on one hand you are arguing that Nintendo are happy to sell ports in any state- so FSR is ample -, yet at the same time arguing they would give up free licensing of a open technology - that produces result that are totally predictable/calculable should they change the game native resolution on a port - in favour of a proprietary black box licensed technology they'd have to pay for every time.

FSR scales terribly on lower resolutions though so the guy is not wrong. I never use FSR (any iteration) on Steam Deck as it destroys image quality. Makes it looks like vaseline when any camera movement is involved.

Its best when the upscaling to 4K with an internal res of 1440P or higher. Anything lower and the upscaling just looks soft and worse, leaves a bunch of ghosting, artifacts with not-so-great motion clarity.

 

[hinch7]

double post oops.

 

[Shut0wen]

Actually hope its true but probably gunna be less powerful then a ps4 though

 

[daclynk]

While the Switch 2 will have the ability to use DLSS, Nintendo will probably be using their own AI upscaling they patented a couple years ago.

Nintendo might be working on a DLSS-like technology for the Nintendo Switch

Even after Nintendo announced the Switch OLED model, many kept believing the game company would launch a 4K Switch due to reports claiming developers are creating games...

www.techspot.com

yeah this is what i was looking for. I want to see how N.E.R.D's DLSS like works and if they will use is with DLSS. Its also seems some people dont want Nintendo to have access to Nvidia's technology. Are people really afraid of the DLSS VS FSR discussions on gaming consoles?

 

[IDKFA]

Yes, portable, not handheld.

Like I said, trim off some inches here and there and it could be a (heavy) handheld.

 

[FireFly]

Like I said, trim off some inches here and there and it could be a (heavy) handheld.

The lightest gaming laptops with Series S performance are ~1.3 KG. I own one (ROG Flow X13). After about 5 minutes it becomes too uncomfortable to hold in my hand due to the weight.

 

[IDKFA]

The lightest gaming laptops with Series S performance are ~1.3 KG. I own one (ROG Flow X13). After about 5 minutes it becomes too uncomfortable to hold in my hand due to the weight.

I hit the gym. 1.3kg is nothing. I could hold that all day. In fact, making a handheld that heavy would make kids a lot stronger. They'd have a workout while playing at the same time.

You just sold me on the idea even more.

 

[mckmas8808]

It pays Nintendo massively to have the Switch 2 able to run ports from the PS5/Series gen. They’ll push for performance this cycle.

They’re already in a situation where they’re missing out on AAA Japanese games. That’s not something they’ll want to happen, going forward. DLSS can go a long way to ensure those titles run on the console

No way in the world man! And DLSS will need hardware within the device to run properly. And it comes at a cost.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

PS5 gen is a stretch but I imagine you will see a fair amount of PS4 ports.

 

[Ozriel]

No way in the world man! And DLSS will need hardware within the device to run properly. And it comes at a cost.

PS5 gen is a stretch but I imagine you will see a fair amount of PS4 ports.

How’s that a stretch, when I’m referring to games like Final Fantasy, Persona 6, SF6 and Call of Duty? Or BG3 that runs happily on a Steamdeck?

It’s a ‘stretch’ when you can run current gen games on the Deck?

It’ll be a handheld, so devs have a lower resolution to aim for.

 

[StereoVsn]

If all their old games will be patched/improved to run at 4k/1440p 60 FPS docked then I'm 100% in. I have a lot of games to play. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT its nintendo lmao. Enjoy hardware worse than your phones.

My phone's MSRP was 3x that of Switch OLED. So yeah, Switch 2 won't have the power of new flagship phone.

And Switch do as t does include controllers. So yeah, nobody should be expecting this. However, once you take a look at older flagship or mid range phones, Switch 2 should meet/exceed that performance.

 

[CuNi]

My phone's MSRP was 3x that of Switch OLED. So yeah, Switch 2 won't have the power of new flagship phone.

And Switch do as t does include controllers. So yeah, nobody should be expecting this. However, once you take a look at older flagship or mid range phones, Switch 2 should meet/exceed that performance.

A switch and a phone target completely different things and you can't just compare a phone to an console. Especially not with money being your only argument? That's like saying my TV cost 5x as much as the OLED switch, thus the switch cannot beat my TV in gaming performance?

Phones are even more geared towards being optimized for battery and heat generation than the switch which already gives the switch an advantage. Even most high end phones cannot sustain their max output for prolonged time before thermal throttle because they only passively cool themselves where a switch has a dedicated fan to cool itself. There are no benchmarks I could find in how the alleged tegra 239 fares against any snapdragon processor so it's really hard to say how big or small the gap will be in who's favor.

 

[mckmas8808]

How’s that a stretch, when I’m referring to games like Final Fantasy, Persona 6, SF6 and Call of Duty? Or BG3 that runs happily on a Steamdeck?

It’s a ‘stretch’ when you can run current gen games on the Deck?

It’ll be a handheld, so devs have a lower resolution to aim for.

But aren't those cross gen games?

 

[Ozriel]

But aren't those cross gen games?

The next final fantasy game won’t be. Ratchet and Returnal run on a Steamdeck. Street Fighter 6 isn’t Crossgen and runs 60fps on Steamdeck.

 

[KingT731]

The next final fantasy game won’t be. Ratchet and Returnal run on a Steamdeck. Street Fighter 6 isn’t Crossgen and runs 60fps on Steamdeck.

SF6 is cross gen. It's on PS4

 

[mckmas8808]

The next final fantasy game won’t be. Ratchet and Returnal run on a Steamdeck. Street Fighter 6 isn’t Crossgen and runs 60fps on Steamdeck.

Huh?

 

[Ozriel]

SF6 is cross gen. It's on PS4

That is…correct. Not sure why that didn’t register with me.

That said, my point stands. There’s pretty much none of the next gen only games so far with PC ports that doesn’t run on a Deck. The ones without PC ports will run on a SteamDeck too.

You can’t port FFXVI to the current Switch without severe compromises. You’ll be able to do that on a next gen Switch.

 

[Ozriel]

Huh?

Happy to cling to this one, while evading the likes of Ratchet and Returnal, eh?

Cross-gen is likely to end soon enough, and a more powerful switch will still get more third party ports. Not sure how that’s contentious in any way

 

[KingT731]

That is…correct. Not sure why that didn’t register with me.

That said, my point stands. There’s pretty much none of the next gen only games so far with PC ports that doesn’t run on a Deck. The ones without PC ports will run on a SteamDeck too.

You can’t port FFXVI to the current Switch without severe compromises. You’ll be able to do that on a next gen Switch.

There will be compromise no matter what and the only limiter truly is what you deem to be an acceptable state for the game

 

[mckmas8808]

Happy to cling to this one, while evading the likes of Ratchet and Returnal, eh?

Cross-gen is likely to end soon enough, and a more powerful switch will still get more third party ports. Not sure how that’s contentious in any way

The Steam Deck has 16 GBs of RAM. The Switch has 4 GBs of RAM. We'll have to know if Nintendo decides to go with 16 GBs of RAM or if they decide to go lower with say 8 Gigs. I just think it's weird to think that the Switch 2, if it's as powerful as a PS4 (1.8 TFs) will get most 3rd party games.

I don't think that's likely to happen given that cross-gen gaming is over like you said.

 

[Ozriel]

The Steam Deck has 16 GBs of RAM. The Switch has 4 GBs of RAM. We'll have to know if Nintendo decides to go with 16 GBs of RAM or if they decide to go lower with say 8 Gigs. I just think it's weird to think that the Switch 2, if it's as powerful as a PS4 (1.8 TFs) will get most 3rd party games.

I don't think that's likely to happen given that cross-gen gaming is over like you said.

Again, anyone expecting a dramatic revolution in gaming with the end of cross gen is being delusional. Games will be made prettier. That’s pretty much it.

Given the expected crazy high install base of the Switch 2 (if it’s well executed), I’d be shocked if many 3rd parties avoid the system.

 

[archangelmorph]

You expect the next Steamdeck to perform worse than the PS4, because it’s a handheld?

That’s not a credible assumption.

Put Apple’s M2 in a handheld and it’d eclipse the PS4.

No it won't.

Power (i.e. perf per watt) is the determinant factor here.

The APU in a handheld can be as beefy as you want it to be but it doesn't matter; the overall system design will be constrained by a materially net lower power envelope (in-order to preserve a run-time battery life that doesn't descend into minutes vis-a-vis hours), meaning:

1. the APU will have to be materially underclocked
2. memory bandwidth will also be smaller (because you don't have the form factor to have similar bus width or as many chips to maintain the same memory capacity vs a console - physically it's impossible)
3. memory clock speed will be materially lower (again to save power and to balance the overall system design)

We're not in a Moore's Law world anymore and transistor sizes aren't halving YoY to yield the kind of chip shrinkage required to boost raw compute at the same rate for the same power draw.

Over the last ~10 years desktop performance has continued to increase but due to power envelopes being pushed upwards (meaning larger chips -> larger, hotter GFX cards) as well as largely micro-architecture design efficiency improvements driving much of the performance gains.

Card prices have been going up, partly because of economic demand increases (AI & crypto) but also because of higher BoM costs (macroeconomic factors + e.g. wafer stacking technologies for compute and memory chips -> more silicon per product -> higher BoM costs per SKU).

There's just no way we're anywhere near handheld scale form factor designs being able to realise PS4 level performance at the overall system level. Even if the APU gets up there with raw TFLOPs, the overall system perfornance will bring the practical limit way down and far away from the theoretical peak perf of the APU by itself. Guaranteed.

 

[Astral Dog]

The Steam Deck has 16 GBs of RAM. The Switch has 4 GBs of RAM. We'll have to know if Nintendo decides to go with 16 GBs of RAM or if they decide to go lower with say 8 Gigs. I just think it's weird to think that the Switch 2, if it's as powerful as a PS4 (1.8 TFs) will get most 3rd party games.

I don't think that's likely to happen given that cross-gen gaming is over like you said.

It depends on the sales,but even then many third parties will ignore Switch 2 like they did current Switch ,if the game is technically too ambitious to run on a handheld(or the port needs plenty of work),the good news is that PS4/Xbox ONE games should work without issue so they can fill up the library

RAM wise i would be surprised with 16 GB as well, 8GB seems more likely with 6 or 7 reserved for games

They can also go with 10 or 12GB,its not likely but it should be plenty of memory for this device

 

[AncientOrigin]

Nintendo always uses outdated hardware.If the Switch 2 should be on par with the PS4 or even PS4 pro it will be dirt cheap to produce.Around 200 max 250 dollars to produce.Nintendo will probably sell it for 299 to make huge profits.I am disappointed I hoped like back in the days that there will be a true home console and a handheld or something like Sonys Q to stream over.Only a handheld console hybrid will cripple everything to handheld power.
Nintendo could make a home console for 299 dollars having 128 SSD 8GB ram 10 TF power but they are to lazy.All their studios produce cheaply made games which costs them a few dollars.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

If its ps4 pro level AND handheld? I wont be too upset about that. I just really hopw it has the ability to be 4k on the tv

 

[John Wick]

This is the only sane reply in this thread. Everything in it makes much morse sense för Nintendo.

You guys have too high expectations, I just can't see that Nintendo would care the least bit about DLSS or implement it in their games, and certainly not require it for all games.

Power and performance is at the very bottom of their list of priorities.

Spot on. Nintendo's priority is profit. They will expect to make profit on every unit. At £399 Switch 2 becomes a tougher sell.

 

[nbkicker]

I cant wait to see what nintendo does, cause as someone who has a oled switch, theres no way ill be updating if theres just a minor update, also be intresting to see if there is backward compat with the switch, as can see a tough sell at whatever price if this come out and the games coming to the new device are just slight updates to switch games which run a few fps more

 

[hbello82]

People keep forgetting the wonders Nintendo can make with the hardware on hand. They also forget that the Switch is running all these beautiful crafted games with a chip that was never used at full capacity from the start, so you can already imagine what they can do with a more powerful modern customized chip.

 

[Kusarigama]

People keep forgetting the wonders Nintendo can make with the hardware on hand. They also forget that the Switch is running all these beautiful crafted games with a chip that was never used at full capacity from the start, so you can already imagine what they can do with a more powerful modern customized chip.

Switch does punch way above its weight

 

[shamoomoo]

People keep forgetting the wonders Nintendo can make with the hardware on hand. They also forget that the Switch is running all these beautiful crafted games with a chip that was never used at full capacity from the start, so you can already imagine what they can do with a more powerful modern customized chip.

The switch may not run at the chips maximum frequency but doesn't it have a dynamic frequency on the GPU? I might be misremembering but didn't Digitally Foundry do a video on tears of the kingdom showing dynamic boosting.

 

[Raploz]

The switch may not run at the chips maximum frequency but doesn't it have a dynamic frequency on the GPU? I might be misremembering but didn't Digitally Foundry do a video on tears of the kingdom showing dynamic boosting.

That's on the CPU side and only used while loading. The GPU has a few fixed clock presets developers can use, and they differ between docked and undocked mode.

 

[Raploz]

On the CPU side, there's a nice video summarizing the differences between the Arm A78 and the Arm A78C used in the T239:

 

[CrustyBritches]

The next final fantasy game won’t be. Ratchet and Returnal run on a Steamdeck. Street Fighter 6 isn’t Crossgen and runs 60fps on Steamdeck.

Plague Tale Requiem, MSFS 2020, and Baldur's Gate 3 are a few more "next-gen only" games that run on Deck. Returnal does run, but it's rough as fuck.

The Steam Deck has 16 GBs of RAM. The Switch has 4 GBs of RAM. We'll have to know if Nintendo decides to go with 16 GBs of RAM or if they decide to go lower with say 8 Gigs.

They need to go with 16GB if they want any chance of getting a substantial amount of 3rd-party games that are PS5/S|X-only.

 

[mckmas8808]

They need to go with 16GB if they want any chance of getting a substantial amount of 3rd-party games that are PS5/S|X-only.

For all of our sake I hope they listen to you and go 16 GBs.

 

[daclynk]

Spot on. Nintendo's priority is profit. They will expect to make profit on every unit. At £399 Switch 2 becomes a tougher sell.

Like the Switch was, which according to Gaf was DOA when it was priced at $300.

 

[Bernoulli]

Ps5 performance with DLSS enabled

 

[chromhound]

 

[Beechos]

How can people expect this fairy tale performance with decent battery life and a good screen at $299? Nintendo has been known to be Apple like to charge premium prices for their so so stuff. Hell how many years are we in with the switch and it's still retailing for 299.

Do people expect nintendo to start selling systems at like 699? Beefy systems like the Aly and legion are compromised as is with their high prices.

 

[StereoVsn]

How can people expect this fairy tale performance with decent battery life and a good screen at $299? Nintendo has been known to be like Apple like to charge premium prices for their so so stuff. Hell how many years are we in with the switch and it's still retailing for 299.

Do people expect nintendo to start selling systems at like 699? Beefy systems like the Aly and legion are compromised as is with their high prices.

I can easily see $399 and current model drops to say $299 or $280. That said...even $399 is not enough for some of these rumors.

 

[Beechos]

I can easily see $399 and current model drops to say $299 or $280. That said...even $399 is not enough for some of these rumors.

For real it's like people see spec sheets for these chips and don't factor in anything else.