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DF: 4K gaming: what can PC learn from PlayStation Pro?
- Thread starter Caayn
- Start date
capitalCORN
Member
We'll be full fat 4k within a generation. Pass.
PackAPunchedMick
Member
You think every pc gamer has a 4k capable gpu?
capitalCORN
Member
The standards between consoles and pc's aren't the same. The goal is 4k 60fps. Plenty of ways to get 4k 30fps now.
texhnolyze
Banned
Interesting. I hope this will become a new (optional) standard for PC.
Learn from Ubisoft, you PC devs.
Learn from Ubisoft, you PC devs.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
If a PC gamer dont have a 4K capable GPU, he's most likely doesn't have a 4K monitor to take advantage of fake 4K at all
Grim Patron
Member
Hope to see a 4K GPD win.
BigEmil
Junior Member
You clearly don't know what your talking about, it's just fanboy shitpost ideology to just brush it off and call checkerboarding etc as just mere 'fake 4k'. Options is always good
"Watch Dogs 2's so-called temporal filtering is a great example"
Except for the god awful ghosting while driving and general fuzziness. I turned it on while playing on TV because the artifacts are less visible at high distance but it's an absolute no-go for monitor gaming.
It's a nice optional setting but suggesting everybody should go all in on this tech is... questionable.
Except for the god awful ghosting while driving and general fuzziness. I turned it on while playing on TV because the artifacts are less visible at high distance but it's an absolute no-go for monitor gaming.
It's a nice optional setting but suggesting everybody should go all in on this tech is... questionable.
Good point too.
PackAPunchedMick
Member
Can a checkboarded image be super sampled?
Would the image scale from 1800p or 2160cb?
Garrett Hawke
Member
Why not have options?
Bubba_Sparks
Member
The more options the better! That is what PC gaming is all about really. Total control over the experience. I'm aiming for 1440p 144/165Hz G-Sync with my current build. So I am going to buy a 1080 To. That way if I want I can downsample from 4K and still get 60FPS if I want.
PackAPunchedMick
Member
Exactly.
"If you're getting 4k/35-40 try 4k checkboarding to reach the 60fps goal".
I'm sensing a tiny bit of snobbery in this regard.
SmartWaffles
Member
PC already have these kind of options via DSR and arbitrary resolutions since ages ago.
Garrett Hawke
Member
DSR doesn't include checkerboard rendering though
Hamster Plugin
Member
I'll just get a GTX 1180 when it becomes a thing along with one of those LG OLEDs (hopefully 2017 ones will be getting discounts then) and enjoy real 4K 60 fps.
HDR is still a thing that needs to be fixed on PC. You shouldn't need an Nvidia API for that.
HDR is still a thing that needs to be fixed on PC. You shouldn't need an Nvidia API for that.
Weird that they think a 1060 would make a good 1800p card.
My 980ti is struggling enough already at 1440p when you turn up some settings to get decent IQ and target 60fps, so I leave it at 1080p most of the time.
Other than that I most certainly would welcome an upscaling option like this.
My 980ti is struggling enough already at 1440p when you turn up some settings to get decent IQ and target 60fps, so I leave it at 1080p most of the time.
Other than that I most certainly would welcome an upscaling option like this.
SmartWaffles
Member
Resident Evil 7 already supports HDR on PC.
That's where you're wrong.
A lot of people use their PCs on a TV and 4K TVs are becoming common. I'm only running at GTX980ti which is enough for 4K in some games but falls short in many others.
What you're not getting is that checkerboard 4K looks virtually identical to "real" 4K when played on a TV at a normal or even close viewing distance. You need to be very close to the screen to appreciate any difference and the difference is often very subtle.
...but it saves a TON of performance and looks dramatically better than standard 1440p. Being able to do this on my TV would be an amazing thing that would allow me to enjoy better image quality on more games.
Dynamic resolution scaling would also be a great thing since a lot of games can hit 60fps at 4K maybe 75% of the time but the drops are just too annoying forcing me to drop resolution. With resolution scaling, it would be possible to enjoy higher resolutions whenever possible with dips in image quality occurring rather than dips in performance which is FAR more noticeable and distracting.
I don't understand why anyone would be against these options.
I'm already running a 4K OLED and, I'm telling you, the difference between checkerboard and "real" 4K is very minimal unless you're sitting a foot away from the TV. I don't think people get just how convincing it can be.
funkystudent
Member
Wouldn't mind it if checkerboarding was a thing you could do on PC. Its a much better solution then sub native res + upscalling.
But given Nvidias knack of kneecapping older cards, adding such a feature doesnt seem like something they would get behind
Thats probably not gonna be true for much longer.
Much like how 4k's TV's have basically phased out 1080p TV's I expect the same thing to happen with PC's soon and unfortunately anything other then the higher end GPU's are capable for really taking advantage of that resolution right now.
We will soon live in a world where every Dell is coming with a 4k screen and a crappy GPU
But given Nvidias knack of kneecapping older cards, adding such a feature doesnt seem like something they would get behind
Thats probably not gonna be true for much longer.
Much like how 4k's TV's have basically phased out 1080p TV's I expect the same thing to happen with PC's soon and unfortunately anything other then the higher end GPU's are capable for really taking advantage of that resolution right now.
We will soon live in a world where every Dell is coming with a 4k screen and a crappy GPU
Backlogger
Member
I have zero interest in 4K gaming right now. Give me stable frame rates over 60 fps and increase performance everywhere else at 1080 to 1440p first.
Bony Manifesto
Member
I'm a total PC fanboy, but even I hate the snobbery of those against checker-boarding based on some sort of weird elitist principle. If there's an way to get better graphics with lower hardware requirements at the expense of image quality, then why not have the option? If you don't want to use it, then turn it off.
I think it might be happening if they aim for 30 fps ala consoles. A 980 Ti runs most current games at about 30 fps in native 4K.
I do agree that we could use checkerboard rendering and dynamic resolution in PC games too. It works well for consoles and looks great in games like Horizon. I haven't tried how it looks on a desktop monitor though where you are viewing the image at a much closer range.
Eolz
Member
This.
edit: as in similarly buying a 144Hz monitor. Or some super expensive headphones without the proper content and/or hardware behind.
Of course you could get a 4K monitor. But if you don't have the hardware for it...
It's not about not putting those options in (some games already have dynamic resolution scaling available on PC for example), it's about pushing that as a good thing to learn from consoles.
It's nice for older GPUs, but it shouldn't replace support and optimization for proper 4K on good GPUs.
I'm sorry but checkboarding not being proper 4K is not "fanboy shitpost ideology". It just isn't 4K, even if you tweak that. Reminds me of the excuses for DmC about how their 30fps game was tweaked to look like 60fps (it didn't) or other graphical solutions being made to say "it's the same!".
There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't start lying about what it really is.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Because some people are offended by the possibility that PC games could learn something from console games?
This so much. As a fan of performance and image quality, I say bring on the checkerboard rendering to PC already! It will be a good thing.
I don't see how anyone with a functioning brain can possibly argue against this as an added option.
Sure. Personally I'm not a fan of running high resolutions at low framerates though, as soon as you turn the camera everything's disappearing in that 30fps movement smear so why even bother.
Something like checkerboard would be awesome for next gen cards though, 4K TVs will be even more of a thing and mainstream GPUs will be able to handle 1800p checkerboard at 60fps and good IQ.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
All games should have internal resolution scaling options and dynamic resolutions modes. Even if you can hit 4k at a good FPS it is nice having dynamic resolution to enable supersampling, Titanfall 2's implementation is great. Also I think Nvidia's multi res shading (as used in Shadow Warrior 2) could be adapted into an interesting way to do dynamic resolution.
TheAdmiester
Member
One thing PC can learn from console is dynamic settings adjustment. That stuff worked wonder in Forza Apex and Horizon 3, and I hope it takes off because it's a pretty big deal.
What I hope PC never learns from consoles is that checkerboard bullshit. I wouldn't touch that or any kind of temporal reconstruction (ahem Ubisoft) with a 10 foot pole. The artifacts and ghosting are just awful. I like my games to render natively and *actually* render at their claimed res.
What I hope PC never learns from consoles is that checkerboard bullshit. I wouldn't touch that or any kind of temporal reconstruction (ahem Ubisoft) with a 10 foot pole. The artifacts and ghosting are just awful. I like my games to render natively and *actually* render at their claimed res.
Stuff on PS4 pro has artifacts and ghosting? Never heard of that.
Caayn
Member
Dynamic resolution scaling should be a thing. I only have experience with in Gears 4 but it works great to keep the FPS steady.
Also checkerboard rendering should give better results with higher framerates, which PC allows for, due to the differences between samples being smaller.
Having these two as options on PC would be great.
Also checkerboard rendering should give better results with higher framerates, which PC allows for, due to the differences between samples being smaller.
Having these two as options on PC would be great.
4k monitor adoption is stupidly miniscule right now. This article is kind of like saying what does the 2017 Yankees have to learn about playing in the world series from past Yankee teams that played in the world series...at the start of the season.
By the time people actually start playing at 4k I'm sure the gpu manufacturers will start to have more options. Until then Nvidia and AMD probably just don't really care about spending money on driver level features only 3% of the audience can use, most of which probably already have gpus powerful enough to run at 4k in the first place.
By the time people actually start playing at 4k I'm sure the gpu manufacturers will start to have more options. Until then Nvidia and AMD probably just don't really care about spending money on driver level features only 3% of the audience can use, most of which probably already have gpus powerful enough to run at 4k in the first place.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
As the owner of a 4K display, a PS4 Pro, and a 1080 Ti I agree wholeheartedly with this article. The Ti has made great strides toward allowing 4K at the consumer level but we're still not at the point of maxing out every single game at that res and who knows when similar performance will available to people unwilling to waste an absurd amount of money to brute force it.
Framerate aside, Horizon: Zero Dawn with its "fake" 4K is one of the best looking games I've played in a long time, on any platform. To say that the PC couldn't benefit from similar rendering techniques is absolute folly.
Framerate aside, Horizon: Zero Dawn with its "fake" 4K is one of the best looking games I've played in a long time, on any platform. To say that the PC couldn't benefit from similar rendering techniques is absolute folly.
Who said what when where
Who said anything about replacing support and optimization for proper 4K on good GPUs? Other than you in this thread.
This will not be a replacement, but an added option. Rest easy, you'll get proper 4K support and all that jazz on high end cards of course.
I sense the fear is strong with a minority of the diehard PC gamers.
This suggests Scorpio could learn from Pro too.
It didn't occur to me until now that some games on Pro with checkerboard 4K might actually look better than on Scorpio with native 4K if they are left with more headroom to render better frame rates, lighting & shadows, improve IQ etc.
This would be solved with Scorpio going to checkerboard 4K for those games, but I wonder how many games will let you choose down to that level.
It didn't occur to me until now that some games on Pro with checkerboard 4K might actually look better than on Scorpio with native 4K if they are left with more headroom to render better frame rates, lighting & shadows, improve IQ etc.
This would be solved with Scorpio going to checkerboard 4K for those games, but I wonder how many games will let you choose down to that level.
I have a GTX 1080 and while it is capable of 4K/30FPS it's not capable of 4K/60FPS. If I had the option of checkerboarding or dynamic resolution scaling then I might be able to play a lot more games at high image quality and framerate both at the same time.
This is what DF means when they say what PC gaming can learn from consoles. The advantages are NOT just limited to old GPUs because while the older GPUs get the option to play at a higher image quality at 30FPS, the modern more powerful GPUs get the option to do the same at 60FPS. So people dismissing this with comments such as "only helps old GPUs" or comments such as "oh anyone who has 4K will have a powerful GPU" (which is totally false) need to understand this.
As for checkerboarding itself, if you think it's easily noticeable or looks like crap then you haven't come across good implementation​s.
This is what DF means when they say what PC gaming can learn from consoles. The advantages are NOT just limited to old GPUs because while the older GPUs get the option to play at a higher image quality at 30FPS, the modern more powerful GPUs get the option to do the same at 60FPS. So people dismissing this with comments such as "only helps old GPUs" or comments such as "oh anyone who has 4K will have a powerful GPU" (which is totally false) need to understand this.
As for checkerboarding itself, if you think it's easily noticeable or looks like crap then you haven't come across good implementation​s.
It's not about monitors, though.
4K TVs are everywhere. I don't have a 4K monitor but I do have a 4K TV and that's where I play my PC games. It's a common setup!
What does Ubisoft have to do with anything?
Have you actually looked at a game making proper use of checkerboard? Rise of the Tomb Raider on PS4? Horizon? Deus Ex Mankind Divided (well, that annoying sharpening filter does hurt)? There are no ghosting artefacts in those games. You're talking about a different, though similar in some ways, process that does yield problems. Not the same thing.
I think that will be a developer thing. If checkboard means they can do fancier effect, better framerate etc, they that's fine with me!
nephilimdj
Member
Thats a weird example, 4k is available now on most decent 27 inch screens that are not OEM/Acer/Chinese random brand.
I think DF has a point, 1060 at the moment is overkill at 1080p on nearly every game on Ultra. Devs should be pushing hardware or atleast looking at new ways to push the limits of what they can do.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Utilizing different techniques to achieve results on par with pricier hardware is a beautiful thing. Of course Nvidia would rather you be on the upgrade treadmill every year.
If DF is saying you can barely tell a difference then the average PC gamer certainly won't be able to. So then it's nothing more then an epeen measuring contest. I spent more money to have the actual number of 4K pixels on screen so I'm superior, even though our games look roughly the same.
Eolz
Member
Steam hardware survey doesn't give a shit if your display device has a TV tuner in it, it just returns display resolution. Monitor or not (are we really splitting hairs this thin? Christ...), another poster was correct that no one with a 4k display device is really going to be playing on a card that can't do 4k /today/. Again, once people actually start using 4k vendors will start doing more to support it. In the future it's pretty easy to see Nvidia doing a checkerboard style rendering solution on the driver side once 4k adoption hits decent enough levels people in the xx60 and xx50 range will have 4k monitors or TVs as a default option, but today it's not surprising neither vendor is wasting their money on driver options no one would really use right now.
huh?