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PC gaming is DEAD. Long live PC gaming! A different kind of pro-PC topic.

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Fully agreed. PC gaming for me has never been about the raw power, and I have so many fantastic indie games and old games from the 90s that I couldn't play anywhere else. Its not just versatility, its all about the library.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
zoukka said:
Just stupid. In the industry, everyone thought that 3D action games would completely overrun the biz. Nobody saw this renaissance of indie games and more simple games in general coming. Thank god we avoided that dark future...
There are plenty of indie games on 360 and PS3 though. I mean, shit, there are quite a few indie games that come out on console first, and then eventually make their way over.

What enabled it is more distribution channels than a migration of big PC developers to consoles. Its not like consoles haven't had an explosion of indie games. Its just that the barriers of entry are more substantial.
 

stuminus3

Member
fresquito said:
The reason is simply because PC gaming is out of the media agenda, except for the big houses that still reside there (Valve and Blizzard, basically).
Valve are actually partially responsible for how things are now. The source engine was "dated" in comparison to it's peers in 2004 and they're still making popular games with it. Then, of course, there's Steam. It's like they never forgot who and what made them rich in the first place, as opposed to Microsoft Game Studios who seem to have absolutely no freaking clue. Blizzard are somewhat the same for different reasons; they went style over substance for WoW and it paid off big time.

Atomski said:
Hes not a elitist that plays pc only.
Uh... I don't actually think any of us are, we're just enthusiasts. I'm actually a Nintendo fanboy. :lol
 

Kabouter

Member
DennisK4 said:
I am going to be honest here and admit that what excites me most abut Divine Wind is the graphical upgrade. EUIII was always hideously ugly.
That's what excites me the least, I think I am the only one who actually likes the default graphical style of EU3. It's not that I think it looks good or anything, it doesn't, it's absolutely hideous. But it's so easy to navigate and find on the map what you are looking for, far more so than in 'prettier' games like Hearts of Iron III and Victoria II. Even when I played mods like WWM for EU3, I still turned off the map style mods.

Can't wait for all the other changes/additions in Divine Wind though.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I love where PC gaming is right now. So many unique and awesome experiences.
 
Atomski said:
Uh.. why not? Someone could have totally made a game similar to minecraft and put it out on xbox live indie games. Matter a fact its a shocker no one has made a clone yet :lol

I know someones already working on a clone for the iphone.

Also I wont be surprised if somewhere down the line we see a console version of minecraft. Notch seems to talk about console gaming all the time. Hes not a elitist that plays pc only.

Minecraft now would easily be published on console but only b/c it's been proven to be a successful formula and well received amongst gamers.. Definitely wouldn't have been published or even looked at by PSN nor XBLA if it were submitted before that.
 

DangerStepp

Member
Zefah said:
I love where PC gaming is right now. So many unique and awesome experiences.
borys.jpg

He senses sarcasm. We're watching you.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Gully State said:
Minecraft now would easily be published on console but only b/c it's been proven to be a successful formula and well received amongst gamers.. Definitely wouldn't have been published or even looked at by PSN nor XBLA if it were submitted before that.
To be fair, Minecraft wouldn't be published because it isn't done. Which is a great thing about the PC platform for indie developers. If they have a great experience in alpha and want to sell that experience and upgrade it for those buyers, then they can and they can obviously make bank doing it. :lol

Although I think Minecraft is a special case, and I'm not sure how much more of it will be successful. We still have to see how it plays out for Minecraft in the first place.
 

stuminus3

Member
It occurs to me that this entire topic is motivated by a blog post that was motivated by a discussion with Notch.

But I don't actually own Minecraft.

I am a monster.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
DangerStepp said:
borys.jpg

He senses sarcasm. We're watching you.

I miss Borys...

And I wasn't being sarcastic, either. I truly do think PC gaming is an excellent spot.
 

Zachack

Member
Gully State said:
Minecraft now would easily be published on console but only b/c it's been proven to be a successful formula and well received amongst gamers.. Definitely wouldn't have been published or even looked at by PSN nor XBLA if it were submitted before that.
Minecraft could have been put on XBIG, not XBLA (barring any specific restriction that would prohibit Minecraft from XBIG).
 

Fixed1979

Member
BobsRevenge said:
To be fair, Minecraft wouldn't be published because it isn't done. Which is a great thing about the PC platform for indie developers. If they have a great experience in alpha and want to sell that experience and upgrade it for those buyers, then they can and they can obviously make bank doing it. :lol

Although I think Minecraft is a special case, and I'm not sure how much more of it will be successful. We still have to see how it plays out for Minecraft in the first place.


I think it's played out for Minecraft pretty well thus far. And you nailed why it would never work on console. Free weekly updates and a pay to play beta game, good luck getting MS or Sony to agree to do that. Actually never mind getting them to agree to do it, try getting it pushed through the required Q/A in time for a free weekly update...
 

dionysus

Yaldog
XBLA and the like are a bright spot for consoles for the same reasons the same type of games are a bright spot for the PC gamer. However, the inherent closed system of consoles will always limit its potential.

To me XBIG is a cooler concept than XBLA, but as I understand it it suffers from poor game organization and low sales. Never used it, it just looks like a decent attempt by the xbox to capture some of the creative mojo of the hobby programmer. And that used to be exclusively on the PC.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Fixed1979 said:
I think it's played out for Minecraft pretty well thus far. And you nailed why it would never work on console. Free weekly updates and a pay to play beta game, good luck getting MS or Sony to agree to do that. Actually never mind getting them to agree to do it, try getting it pushed through the required Q/A in time for a free weekly update...
The main thing Minecraft has to worry about is people still caring when the game is actually done.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
BobsRevenge said:
The main thing Minecraft has to worry about is people still caring when the game is actually done.
I'd say the main thing Notch has to worry about is people expecting something as brilliant and innovative for his next project.
 

DaBuddaDa

Member
I don't know...it might be nice for guys like Notch to be able to gain success with their small projects, but "indie" games in general always get me hyped up with their pretentious prattle and almost always end up being fleeting, simplistic one-trick-ponies with pretty art. I'll take the Crysises and Metro 2033s and Diablo IIIs over indie games any day.
 
DaBuddaDa said:
I don't know...it might be nice for guys like Notch to be able to gain success with their small projects, but "indie" games in general always get me hyped up with their pretentious prattle and almost always end up being fleeting, simplistic one-trick-ponies with pretty art. I'll take the Crysises and Metro 2033s and Diablo IIIs over indie games any day.

I'd say that's a better assessment of most AAA big publisher titles than most indie titles.
 

DaBuddaDa

Member
MrNyarlathotep said:
I'd say that's a better assessment of most AAA big publisher titles than most indie titles.
I disagree completely. Most indie titles that get any sort of press or recognition are either puzzle or platforming games with a distinct art style and one gameplay "twist" that sets it apart from the standards that gets old extremely fast. AAA big publisher games (the good ones) offer a wealth of distinct locations, characters, dialogue, gameplay styles and options.
 

szaromir

Banned
I definitely disagree. PC gaming is awesome now, but I would also love to see more game that use some advanced tech and are innovative at the same time. Look at 1998 - we had things like Thief (first use of surround sound system), R6 Vegas, Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines and many more. I'd like to see more titles like this, not just "neat but little" indie games.
 

stuminus3

Member
DaBuddaDa said:
I disagree completely. Most indie titles that get any sort of press or recognition are either puzzle or platforming games with a distinct art style and one gameplay "twist" that sets it apart from the standards that gets old extremely fast. AAA big publisher games (the good ones) offer a wealth of distinct locations, characters, dialogue, gameplay styles and options.
You just described the difference between old games (and I mean old games, not like Infinity engine games or something), and modern games. It's largely smoke and mirrors, when you take away the flash. At least Bungie were honest when they made Halo.

I'm not sure why we all take this as one extreme or the other though, that's not really what the OP was about.
 

DaBuddaDa

Member
stuminus3 said:
I'm not sure why we all take this as one extreme or the other though, that's not really what the OP was about.
I'm just saying I disagree with Notch, I prefer the AAA games over indie games most of the time, and I do not think large developer's abandonment of the platform for consoles has been a good thing.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
What I believe the PC truly excels in isn't the Graphical Pusher or the small 10$ title. But the Mid Range/Budget one. Games like Killing Floor, Mount and Blade, Natural Selection 2, and dozens of others really don't have a home on consoles. Yet, find a perfect fit on PC these days. Where as Console is strictly 1-15$ or 60$. You get some of these entries that don't quite fit into either spot. They are still full fledged releases(In many cases, far superior than the 60$ counterparts). Yet they find a nice home at a 30$ mark. PC offers that full range Free to play to 60$ AAA releases.
 

Sipowicz

Banned
pc gaming is the best. i can pick up some random game i didn't play from tn years ago and still have a better experience than any console game this gen
 

Jintor

Member
http://www.mcvuk.com/features/808/OPINION-Retail-vs-Steam

What is more surprising is the reaction of retail now. I have read it described as the reaction of a small child who threw his toy away because he no longer wanted it, but started screaming as soon as another child picked it up to play with. The metaphor works perfectly, especially in the light of the excuse I heard on numerous occasions.

‘There is no demand’ went the mantra. But is this really true? Not in our experience.

I remember fondly the meeting in my office with a red-faced publisher who was explaining why their initial order from a major retailer for one of our new releases was just 30 units. At the time I had my browser open on the Steam product data page, which updates sales numbers every few minutes.

“They have taken one unit for each of their top 30 stores” he told me. “There is just no demand from their customers”.

I glanced at my screen, hit refresh and advised him: “In the time it’s taken you to tell me that there is no demand, Steam has sold 45 units”.

Steam is selling decent numbers of our titles. They are really cool to work with, have a refreshing, knowledgeable developer mentality, and never bully or threaten their suppliers.

And for a company such as ours, there is much more to it than that. There is the financial model, which is so often overlooked.

More at link, but it's a Publishing Director from 1C who has some interrrrresting things to say.
 

Fredescu

Member
If people that love budget budget games no longer get them on one platform, they're not going to just twiddle their thumbs and buy nothing until something comes along. They're going to buy the platform that those big budget games. The lack of big budget PC exclusives has nothing in the world to do with the rise of indie games. That's all to do with ease of distribution.

I'd much rather be upgrading my video card every couple of years for new and exciting stuff that looks pretty than either settle for a console or play indie games and nothing else. Luckily pretty games don't have to have super high budgets as stuff like Metro and Stalker show. I agree with those that say the middle ground between $15 XBLA and $60 Blockbuster is the most exciting segment on PC.
 

stuminus3

Member
DaBuddaDa said:
I'm just saying I disagree with Notch, I prefer the AAA games over indie games most of the time, and I do not think large developer's abandonment of the platform for consoles has been a good thing.
I wouldn't say "abandonment" though, because that hasn't actually happened.

The focus has changed, sure - the consoles come first, as opposed to the how it used to be, and there certainly aren't many big budget AAA PC exclusives anymore. But there's as many of these games now as there's ever been, with the occasional big anomaly (RDR is one, since GTAIV and it's episodes are on PC... even Bully is on PC). Elder Scrolls. Fallout. BioWare (who still are actually doing it right with their PC versions, texture resolution aside). Sega have a ton on PC, even Capcom, their games are technically amazing on PC now though their lack of DLC is annoying. Activision, EA, they have big PC catalogues even now. Battlefield and Call of Duty, that's somewhat expected. Of course there's still a large second tier, especially in European development, making games that are supposed to be PC games but end up on console anyway (Risen for example).

If anything, a large part of the above is as much to do with consoles finally being able to offer comparable experiences as PC games (especially in genres like FPS).

Jintor said:
More at link, but it's a Publishing Director from 1C who has some interrrrresting things to say.
Good stuff here.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
To me this whole thing boils down to the PC being the vanguard of the industry. It's just always ahead of the curve. Those mega-publishers went to consoles because it wasn't financially viable to have growing mega budgets with the PC userbase. So they went to the larger market. Well costs have continued to increase. And that console market (with notable exceptions) really isn't large enough to support these new budgets either. The console market will look a lot more like the current PC market in 5 years.

Jintor said:
http://www.mcvuk.com/features/808/OPINION-Retail-vs-Steam



More at link, but it's a Publishing Director from 1C who has some interrrrresting things to say.

You're not kidding. If that's even remotely true for most publishers/developers, retail better not issue too many ultimatums. Because they're not going to win.
 

K.Jack

Knowledge is power, guard it well
Jintor said:
http://www.mcvuk.com/features/808/OPINION-Retail-vs-Steam



More at link, but it's a Publishing Director from 1C who has some interrrrresting things to say.
“They have taken one unit for each of their top 30 stores” he told me. “There is just no demand from their customers”.

I glanced at my screen, hit refresh and advised him: “In the time it’s taken you to tell me that there is no demand, Steam has sold 45 units”.
Fucking FATALITY.
 
Looking back Computer gaming probably had it's "crash". completely squeezed out of retail in favor of the shovelware tree and cash bonanza that second hand console games granted.
 

scitek

Member
The_Technomancer said:
Fully agreed. PC gaming for me has never been about the raw power, and I have so many fantastic indie games and old games from the 90s that I couldn't play anywhere else. Its not just versatility, its all about the library.
This is the main thing that makes me hope for PC ports of some of the great XBLA games and whatnot, the fact that I can still download and play games from 10+ years ago any time I want just because they're right there on Steam. Limitless backward compatibility (with some exceptions) is incredible.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Dipindots said:
I'm building a gaming PC for the first time in a month or two, I can't wait :D

Make sure to sign up on Steam if you haven't yet. Stock up on games during the holiday sale (~Dec 21st-Jan 1st) before you build your PC for like 1/5th-1/10th the price, will make it that much more fun once it's built, knowing you got like 50+ games for under $300! :)
 

stuminus3

Member
scitek said:
This is the main thing that makes me hope for PC ports of some of the great XBLA games and whatnot, the fact that I can still download and play games from 10+ years ago any time I want just because they're right there on Steam. Limitless backward compatibility (with some exceptions) is incredible.
Fewer exceptions than one would think. The computer I'm typing this on would be like some crazy Star Trek shit to my young 1986 self. Yet I have the 24 year old Might and Magic installed on it. One way or another, these things are possible. Meanwhile, Nintendo charge me 10 bucks to play Mario World again. Bah.
 

stuminus3

Member
Fredescu said:
It's not like that's unheard of in the PC space: http://www.gog.com

At least GoG games aren't tied to the hardware you download them on to I guess.
That's an unfair comparison. I could literally load up a floppy disk from 1986 on this thing, all GOG does in the case of Might and Magic is throw it together with a preconfigured DOSBox and an installer. There's nowhere on my Wii I can plug a SNES cart into.
 

Fredescu

Member
I'm making the comparison because "Nintendo make us pay way too much for old games!" was a really common complaint when the VC first launched, but the $10 pricepoint is pretty common on GoG and not too many people complain. The point that you can always find a way to get an old game running on current hardware if you try hard enough is a good one though, and funnily enough if I still owned the Mario World cart I'd probably just play it on an emulator on PC and be done with it.
 

x3sphere

Member
Atomski said:
Uh.. why not? Someone could have totally made a game similar to minecraft and put it out on xbox live indie games. Matter a fact its a shocker no one has made a clone yet :lol .

You underestimate all the restrictions devs deal with on closed platforms. There's also the issue of pushing out updates in a timely fashion. Minecraft as it stands is quite buggy. Sony or MS would not allow such a product to pass through certification. Delivering alphas just isn't viable on the current crop of consoles.

stuminus3 said:
Valve are actually partially responsible for how things are now. The source engine was "dated" in comparison to it's peers in 2004 and they're still making popular games with it. l

Source is a vastly different engine than it was 6 years ago. It was built with modularity in mind, Valve incrementally adds enhancements to it. L4D2 holds up well to most games today, Portal 2 even moreso.
 

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
Well, retailers certainly did their part on PC market crash, but selling games to your local store audience is harder than to sell them to the whole world or a few countries simultaneously.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Zefah said:
I miss Borys...

Terrible poster and a troll. Was single-handedly responsible for the negative perception towards PC gaming and PC gamers on GAF for quite a while.
 

Grayman

Member
I enjoy all sides of the PC gaming environment. Indie dd games, freeware, back catalog, strength using exclusive(from using a mouse up to games that would be impossible on console like crysis), and multiplat are all available.

I would like more "crysis" games. Not in the sense of graphics but in the experiences offered. Crysis puts an objective in an area of a few square kilometers and says have fun. To me that is as unique and valuable as Spelunky and Frozen Synapse.
 

Grayman

Member
Fredescu said:
It's not like that's unheard of in the PC space: http://www.gog.com

At least GoG games aren't tied to the hardware you download them on to I guess.
i see gog as making games newly available to people. For the most part nintendo is selling game x to the same person over multiple hardware cycles.

I think setting up random PC game without GOG today is slightly less hassle than setting up an NES on a modern TV and keeping all the games out. Although, both are worth ten dollars to someone i see a difference.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Grayman said:
I would like more "crysis" games. Not in the sense of graphics but in the experiences offered. Crysis puts an objective in an area of a few square kilometers and says have fun. To me that is as unique and valuable as Spelunky and Frozen Synapse.
Crysis is by no means the first game to do it, or anything. Its been done quite a bit before. Its just that it empowers the player and provides meaningful choices that can be made quickly, that sort of expand on each other exponentially with the environment. The game design is genius for an FPS.

edit: Although, admitedly, almost all of the other games I'm thinking of are PC games.
 

Amneisac

Member
I think we're just at a point in the console lifecycle curve where PCs are a really appealing option. The hardware is cheaper than it's ever been for the level of performance you can get. I just took a break from playing Crysis on high settings with no frame rate issues and I spent about $800 on my PC. I still like my PS3, 360 and Wii, but I've gotten to where I'm buying all cross-platform games on PC. It's just so great with the low Steam prices and how much bang you can get for the buck.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
ZealousD said:
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.


Then sell the fucker at 400% profit.


You want ice cubes? That will be an extra DLC charge.


EviLore said:
Terrible poster and a troll. Was single-handedly responsible for the negative perception towards PC gaming and PC gamers on GAF for quite a while.

The best Borys post was when he admitted that he had a 6 year old computer that was incapable of playing all the games he was drooling over. :lol
 
1. ABlackFalcon made a thread very similar to this a few months ago and got attacked by the PCDefense force.

2. Developers can't really afford to make games with more detailed assets anyway. So it's a win/win.

Nintendo and PC for life. Best of both worlds.

Fugu said:
I don't know about this.

I do not consider the current state of PC gaming to be better than it was from the early nineties to the early 00's. The notion that PC gaming has not always been the technological arms race that it was as recently as four years ago is categorically false; it is merely the case that the arms race could no longer be conducted by basement coders and that at some point, something had to give.

I consider the current state of PC game to be a compromise based on the realization that it is impossible given the continuing advancement of technology for PC gaming to ever be as versatile and bleeding edge-oriented as it was in the nineties. The innevitable rise in development budgets (a rise that was accompanied by rising consumer standards) means that the bleeding edge is now entirely unpractical for inexpensive development. I don't see how this could possibly perceived as a good thing; inevitable as it is, this element has contributed to the lack of variety in titles that explicitly aim to push the available hardware. PC gaming has always been known for its relative variety due to the diversity of development budgets and accessibility of the platform; RTS games were (and mostly still are) unheard of on consoles. TBS games, HnS games, roguelikes, war simulation games, flight simulators, train conducting games: These are genres that live on the PC and have lived there for awhile. The presence of a second-tier development crew (second-tier referring to popularity, not quality) is not new to the PC; what is new to the PC (and by new, I mean from about 2003 onward) is the presence of a gap between what is technically within reach of a second-tier team and a first-tier team.

I also do not hold NVidia and ATI particularly responsible for this either because there has, for as long as I have been involved in PC gaming, always been an actor pushing the definition of high-end and these actors have subsequently driven the graphics fidelity of the games that developers produced. In fact, both NVidia and ATI contributed greatly to reducing the price of the high-end; a high end PC now costs a fifth of what it did in 1998.

I would argue that we are better than we were five years ago but worse than we were ten years ago. During the PS2/XBox/GCN era, I felt that PC gaming suffered an identity crisis where it couldn't handle the fact that development costs had gotten too high for every game out there to meet a certain level of (graphical/performance) quality and that as a result the development of these interesting and unique games halted because they became too expensive to develop (with the requirement that they remain bleeding edge). In recent years we (PC gamers) have conceded that these second-tier developers cannot and will not ever be able to push the limits of the available technology but that that is okay, and we have come to the concession largely because these developers are producing fantastic and interesting games that would never appear anywhere else which, by and large, is the element that has largely been responsible for the loyal following that PC gaming commands. It is still a concession though, and I have a hard time seeing it as anything else.

This post repeats itself a lot (I'm very tired) so I thank you if you've made it all the way through it and better yet if you understand what I'm trying to say.

This is what's going on in gaming in general. It's very similar to pixel art 2D games. Once they reach a certain level only the crazy dedicated will try to surpass it.

It's like I've said before. The power race is over. Developers just can't make games any more detailed without an unsafe increase in costs.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
1-D_FTW said:
You're not kidding. If that's even remotely true for most publishers/developers, retail better not issue too many ultimatums. Because they're not going to win.
1C isn't really a company that would be effected by retailers. Of course some damage would be done, but they produce titles for more niche fanbases. Similar to Paradox Interactive, they can easily avoid retailers with minimal loss. They don't advertise and in many cases. Most stores would probably only carry 1 or 2 copies as it is.

It could actually be more beneficial too them. Instead of having to negotiate and ship small amounts across the world. And get small returns back, they can just DD the entire title. Only have to pay then based on what they sell, not what they hope to sell.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
OP said:
Let's just say, I probably spend more on GPU upgrades between 2000 and 2006 than I've spend on every other piece of gaming hardware I've bought in my life combined.

Not to cherry pick something from a very nice post, but you seem to infer that this is a problem of PC gaming. I would argue that this is a problem of self-control. You can ride out a rig for 3-4 years (even during this turbulant time) if you are willing to make some sacrifices on graphics towards the end of it's run or buying budget/mid-priced GPU's instead.
 

Fredescu

Member
Flying_Phoenix said:
1. ABlackFalcon made a thread very similar to this a few months ago and got attacked by the PCDefense force.
A Black Falcon keeps trying to push the idea, in that thread and others, that PC gaming is dead and it took scores of genres along with it. He likes to use lists of decade old edutainment titles to prove his point. Very different to the points being made in this article.
 

Grayman

Member
BobsRevenge said:
Crysis is by no means the first game to do it, or anything. Its been done quite a bit before. Its just that it empowers the player and provides meaningful choices that can be made quickly, that sort of expand on each other exponentially with the environment. The game design is genius for an FPS.

edit: Although, admitedly, almost all of the other games I'm thinking of are PC games.
It certainly was not an exhaustive example. It does offer more choices than any multiplatform shooter coming to my mind though.
 

zoukka

Member
EviLore said:
Terrible poster and a troll. Was single-handedly responsible for the negative perception towards PC gaming and PC gamers on GAF for quite a while.

I think his legacy lives on strong.
 

mug

Member
I'm still quite satisfied with my 4670. The graphic card wars seem to be at a stand still and there is finally some stability. Oh yeah, and steam.
 
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