MatrixMan.EXE
Member
A lot of people in the US criticise other countries for being fanatical about their nation, but to me, reading stuff like this, the US isn't too dissimilar in that sense.
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I'm trying to understand the perspective of the "Disrespecting our flag" crowd
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A lot of people in the US criticise other countries for being fanatical about their nation, but to me, reading stuff like this, the US isn't too dissimilar in that sense.
No you just did what the right does and simplified a complex situation where we are right as the left as a completely easy issue which it isn't .
Edit : IMO yes the left should be held to a higher standard than the right . We have the moral upper ground and should keep holdin it . If we're dirty like them we lose that and the moral upper ground matters . The fact that I as a left leaning person am willing to listen to one from the right but he/she isn't matters . That's what makes me better
It's not that complex. I've lived around it my entire life, these people aren't having nuanced discussions behind closed doors.
Saw it on Facebook. It pretty much tears down any respect argument on its own.
Sohter.Nura
Member
A friend of mine posted on facebook something along the lines "They are entertainers, they should just do their job and play the game."
You know, I know I might get in trouble for putting it this way, but I almost see this as a racial thing, given the disproportionate representation that black people have in sports compared to % of population. It perpetuates a point of view that blacks shouldn't stand up to talk and give us their point of view, their job is to serve / entertain us, and they have nothing of value to say. The same extends to other minorities in sports.
I don't believe people think consciously in that way, I just think it's so ingrained in our thought process and the way we think about the world and race relations.
You know, I know I might get in trouble for putting it this way, but I almost see this as a racial thing, given the disproportionate representation that black people have in sports compared to % of population. It perpetuates a point of view that blacks shouldn't stand up to talk and give us their point of view, their job is to serve / entertain us, and they have nothing of value to say. The same extends to other minorities in sports.
I don't believe people think consciously in that way, I just think it's so ingrained in our thought process and the way we think about the world and race relations.
If you're so sure then yes go protest and express your opinion I'm cool with that it's not a viewpoint I support fully . But I accept that is what you feel is correct
To be fair people complain about actors/actresses being political as well, and the majority of well known actors/actresses are white.
Jmanunknown
Member
Yo your above the fray holier than thou bs is wearing real thin. Its not a real complex situation. Situations like this only get complicated once people start deflecting from the main issue with their own bs instead of addressing the main issue because they are either too uncomfortable or do not really want to address the main issue in the first place. Its why instead talking about having real criminal justice reform and accountability the main issue in the first place the conversation has shifted towards bs like people getting caught up in their own feelings about people kneeling and whether its disrespecting the flag.
tonysidaway
Member
For what it's worth, I think that comparison is apt. What's so wrong with disrespecting a religion? Fuck religion. Fuck daft bits of cloth on sticks. We deserve better.
This is the problem with modern society. Everybody expects everyone to conform to their own beliefs else they are unworthy pieces of shit.
How about we respect peoples right to believe or not believe in religion, and call out the religious nuts who make the rest of us look bad. But nah, fuck anything and everybody who doesnt agree with your own beliefs right?
tonysidaway
Member
Yes. But also fuck religion and fuck silly bits of cloth on a stick. There is a distinction between my respect for somebody's right to believe whatever nonsense they want, and my respect for that nonsense. Which, in the aforementioned two cases, is zero.
And I think your not understanding it's nuanced is bs . Don't talk shit just cause you disagree . Don't agree with me fine . Doesn't mean you can demean my opinions .
I find it strange that people are only just realising this now...in 2017.
Wait is this a thing ? I always assumed most internationals understood Americans wear their patriotism on their sleeves far more than other countries ?
Edit I know a bunch of internationals and we've always been of the opinion Americans are much more openly pro their military / fly their flags as signs of patriotism than other nations ...
Edit2 : obviously disregarding brainwashed wacko dictatorships etc
Chairmanchuck
Member
tonysidaway
Member
I think it kinda does.
No it does not . Read up on civil discourse.
KarneeKarnay
Member
It's a lot of "You're not supposed to do that." or "The Flag is above all of this." or "Race and politics shouldn't use the flag for their own ends."
I can see the logic behind them. I just have only one problem with. Before all the kneeling and refusing to stand. The flag was and is used for politics and commercial reasons. The flag in itself is for lack of a better term, politics. A nation only exists as long as people believe in it and a flag represents that belief. It also becomes a symbol of the actions the people who believe in it take.
Right now the US has a very real problem with race. You can argue the specifics of who is exploiting this for their own gain, but it is real and happening. It deserves to be talked about. People outside the US see it, people inside the US see it. When these men refuse to stand for the flag, they are saying to the world, we recognise their is a problem and it needs to be talked about.
I don't think there is anything disrespectful in doing what they are doing. I think the anger comes from the fear that they are no longer loyal or believe in the US. It's a gut reaction and one people are all too willing to use to ignore the reason these men have not stood. It's easier to be angry than it is to reflect.
I can see the logic behind them. I just have only one problem with. Before all the kneeling and refusing to stand. The flag was and is used for politics and commercial reasons. The flag in itself is for lack of a better term, politics. A nation only exists as long as people believe in it and a flag represents that belief. It also becomes a symbol of the actions the people who believe in it take.
Right now the US has a very real problem with race. You can argue the specifics of who is exploiting this for their own gain, but it is real and happening. It deserves to be talked about. People outside the US see it, people inside the US see it. When these men refuse to stand for the flag, they are saying to the world, we recognise their is a problem and it needs to be talked about.
I don't think there is anything disrespectful in doing what they are doing. I think the anger comes from the fear that they are no longer loyal or believe in the US. It's a gut reaction and one people are all too willing to use to ignore the reason these men have not stood. It's easier to be angry than it is to reflect.
tonysidaway
Member
Civil discourse rules out dismissal of nonsense? Well then, maybe my mathematics teacher wasn't so civil after all, with his reductio ad absurdum.
Your math teacher was nonsense then if he/she equated political
Discourse with mathematically provable theorems based on axioms ... Math != social sciences . Good lord this is a horrible comparison. Its what lets climate deniers get away with denying science cause they equate science with opinions . Math is even more rigorous than regular science .... Ridiculous comparison . I am truly at a loss of words at reductio ad absurdum .lol .
tonysidaway
Member
Don't try to muddy the water. Climate denial dies when faced with the weight of evidence. Similarly, when you bring up that "we must tolerate the intolerant" nonsense it needs to be dismissed.
I am muddying no waters . I am of the opinion this is nuanced . You're claiming it's something as simple as math and I'm pointing out the absolute absurdity of that statement . Either you don't understand math or political/social viewpoints . This is no where close to a super clear cut issue when you can possibly
Even attempt to use math terminology (although in general math terminology is by and large inapplicable anyway )
Edit also I have stated in this very thread if this happened in my country I would not hate the ppl doing it its their right . However I don't see this as a clear cut issue . Friggin Obama has a similar viewpoint . But I guess we're all wrong and reduced to a contradiction cause we dont hold your opinion
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Just people not wanting to think about or recognize problems in their own country. Not wanting to hear people complain, etc. The equivalent of putting fingers in their ears and telling people to shut up.
Personally, I've never understood why flag worship is such an integral part of sporting events.
Personally, I've never understood why flag worship is such an integral part of sporting events.
tonysidaway
Member
You're saying the promotion of reverence for a bit of cloth while the principles the cloth is supposed to stand for are trampled upon (and the lives of millions are accordingly degraded) is nuanced. Bollocks. Enough bothsidism.
Gangster Bastard
Member
When it comes to religion I think most people are far more emotionally invested into the symbols of their faith than the actual teachings (which is probably a good thing).
In that sense disrespecting a flag is exactly the same as disrespecting a holy book or a religious figure.
In that sense disrespecting a flag is exactly the same as disrespecting a holy book or a religious figure.
No I'm saying I get why ppl get offended at the anthem protest . Kap decided to conflate the issues and that's his right his opinion . And I respect that . I might even be inclined to agree with his form of protest if I was American
However what I will not agree with is the notion that ppl being offended have absolutely no reason to be . And it's all about race . It's not both sidism it's being someone who can also respect other viewpoints . By your logic Obama did "bothsidism"
llien
Member
neurosisxeno
Member
Most of these people also voted for a fucking reality TV show host to be President, and worship a former President that was a Movie Star, so the "they're entertainers" thing can be thrown right out the window.
Great post, thanks!
PS
What is "US Flag Code" actually? Is it part of some law?
It's a law, but the penalty for breaking it is literally never enforced.
PjotrStroganov
Member
Wouldn't be surprised if a significant number of these people didn't vote for him.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Yes, "paid patriotism" is indeed very much a thing.
br0ken_shad0w
Member
edit: wrong topic
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Doesn't every country sing the anthem in school every morning? Every country I've ever lived in sure does.
Not sure why you think America is unique in that regard.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
A handful are ignorant and think its really about protesting the flag itself.
Most don't like seeing brown people getting out of line and "whining". On some we let you get rights, stopped hanging you, and put a black in the highest office but you're still not satisfied type shit.
Most don't like seeing brown people getting out of line and "whining". On some we let you get rights, stopped hanging you, and put a black in the highest office but you're still not satisfied type shit.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
True American Patriot sees innocent12 year old child shot to death by policeman with no repercussion.
True American Pattiot has no reaction. Doesn't care about making change so that this doesn't happen again. Dead, mirdered kid is not important. Doesn't deserve to be stood up for.
Then we have....
True American Patriot sees a sportsman protest silently to raise awareness of things like police killing innocent 12 year old children with no repercussion.
True American Patriot is fuming mad at the burning injustice of a person refusing to stand for the national anthem. How can this kind of thing happen in their country???? We need to do something about his!! Fire them! Hit em where it hurts! Sons of bitches! The flag needs to be cherished and loved!!
True American Pattiot has no reaction. Doesn't care about making change so that this doesn't happen again. Dead, mirdered kid is not important. Doesn't deserve to be stood up for.
Then we have....
True American Patriot sees a sportsman protest silently to raise awareness of things like police killing innocent 12 year old children with no repercussion.
True American Patriot is fuming mad at the burning injustice of a person refusing to stand for the national anthem. How can this kind of thing happen in their country???? We need to do something about his!! Fire them! Hit em where it hurts! Sons of bitches! The flag needs to be cherished and loved!!
India doesn't . Well atleast my school didn't . Don't think it happened in Bangladesh when I lived there either . Our national anthem is played on special occasions (Independence Day republic day etc and during national team events etc). That sounds really weird to me national anthem everyday sounds so excessive
Uh...fuck no.
lol no.
No man. We also don't have to pledge allegiance to a flag; which is also weird.
Chuckie
Member
I think I can count the number of times we had to sing the national anthem in school on one hand.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
The people who get all bent out of shape about "disrespecting America" are the western equivalent of the Muslims who don't like depictions of Muhammad.
Hahahahaha. You raise a point there.
"You cannot draw images of our prophet. That's disrespectful."
"But freedom of speech! Suck it up!"
"Ok, I'll just kneel and disrespect your flag then"
"Woah woah woah! Just hang on - I say I say - hang on one minute there. You can't disrespect our flag"
Freedom of speech is for all. You can't have it applicable for something and not something else right?
Euphoria14
Member
Yesterday I had to deal with this mindset.
Wifes birthday and I spent it with her side of the family. Her father is really pissed about the flag thing.
I tried to explain how no rights are being violated or rules being broken and that Trump has no say on the NFL because the owners for the most part seem to support the players.
Tell him they are afforded the right to do so by the constitution and I get the usual I dont care.
As expected since listening to crap like Hannity I was told in my own home Oh god another fucking bleeding heart liberal.
Then he points to me, looks to the family and says Hes exactly what fucking wrong with this country.
I almost lost it. Had to go in the basement. Minutes later he left the house and went home.
Right before that he went into the shit like this is only a problem if youre black!, to which I had to promptly state You dont speak like that in my house.
Trying to raise my daughter to be better than that.
I always knew he was a bit racist, but he was raised that way and for the longest time he kind of just kept it to himself. However this shit stain in office has normalized it yet again and he is acting in a way I havent seen in the 12 years Ive known him.
Weve never went at each other like we did yesterday.
Wifes birthday and I spent it with her side of the family. Her father is really pissed about the flag thing.
I tried to explain how no rights are being violated or rules being broken and that Trump has no say on the NFL because the owners for the most part seem to support the players.
Tell him they are afforded the right to do so by the constitution and I get the usual I dont care.
As expected since listening to crap like Hannity I was told in my own home Oh god another fucking bleeding heart liberal.
Then he points to me, looks to the family and says Hes exactly what fucking wrong with this country.
I almost lost it. Had to go in the basement. Minutes later he left the house and went home.
Right before that he went into the shit like this is only a problem if youre black!, to which I had to promptly state You dont speak like that in my house.
Trying to raise my daughter to be better than that.
I always knew he was a bit racist, but he was raised that way and for the longest time he kind of just kept it to himself. However this shit stain in office has normalized it yet again and he is acting in a way I havent seen in the 12 years Ive known him.
Weve never went at each other like we did yesterday.
Ahahaha, that's insane. Where have you lived? USA and North Korea?
That sounds absolutely ridiculous. Only time you'd hear the anthem here is the independence day once a year.
Well thanks to Trump talking his shit and not condemning neo-nazis, he has allowed racists to come out of the woodwork and normalize their fucked up opinions.
Impeccable
Member
Oh yeah, totally. That is what people are saying!
Edit: Canada sings it daily in school.
Basic training is more than just physical conditioning and learning maneuvers.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Trump calls them, "the silent majority".
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