CornBurrito
Member
You can't throw money on goods as a solution to systemic racism. Sorry.
Also lol @ "you have a career, so you can't criticize America." This is "Fuedalism GAVE you those tools serfs" levels of dumb.
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I'm trying to understand the perspective of the "Disrespecting our flag" crowd
- Thread starter Goodstyle
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You can't throw money on goods as a solution to systemic racism. Sorry.
Also lol @ "you have a career, so you can't criticize America." This is "Fuedalism GAVE you those tools serfs" levels of dumb.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
They're nationalist at best, racist at worst
Hades Hotgun
Banned
Anyone who places a flag or a song over the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is a disgrace to the country.
Which is exactly what I told my mother when she said some ignorant racist shit about Kaepernick.
There is nothing to understand beyond this being about racism and the accompanying resentment toward "uppity blacks."
Which is exactly what I told my mother when she said some ignorant racist shit about Kaepernick.
There is nothing to understand beyond this being about racism and the accompanying resentment toward "uppity blacks."
I find the direct instinctive link some American people have from flag to veterans to be interesting. I could understand the tangential association from flag to country to army; but it really seems like the flag is the symbol of the US military rather than the US itself. It's weird coming from a place where the flag is only seen at the olympics or when the queen does stuff.
The unfortunate problem is that people should have protected the sanctity of the American flag well before Trump. Because for a lot of Americans, on BOTH sides, it has become a symbol of white supremacy, and it has been that for a while. Choosing to be mad at the people who recognize that, because it affects our daily lives, is counterproductive and pushes the blame on the victims of white supremacy.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
This. It's a tortured justification that boils down to "People I don't like/don't look like me shouldn't have the right to express themselves".
NoblesseOblige
Banned
If people want to treat the flag as a symbol of our rights then there's actually little that is more respectful to that than to allow and accept others who disrespect it.
Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.
There is so much I have to say on this....
so much.
If you dont expect Stevie Wonder to do this, than you DONT KNOW WHO THE FUCK STEVIE WONDER EVEN IS!!!
He's had entire albums and top 10 songs that speak of nothing but social injustice, politics anti-war, and racism. His entire discography is basically anthems to protest by!
Why the fuck would you think that a man whose platinum songs are
"Higher Ground" A song about how war and social injustice will eventually destroy humanity, while the world just keeps on turning.
"livin for the city" Which is a story about a poor black man from down south growing up with racism and then trying to make it in the city, and the moment he steps off the bus is immediately accosted by police, and sentenced ten years for nothing.
"Happy Birthday" Was Stevie's reaction to people protesting the confirmation of making MLKs birthday a national holiday. So he fought back against those who would scoff at the idea of celebrating an MLK Day. He outright calls out racists who would be against it and was the key song that contributed to the MLK Day campaign in the early 80s which ultimately led to it now being a celebrated holiday.
"Black Man" A self explanatory title, but this song is an American history lesson overlapped with a funky beat explaining that America was not built by white people alone.
"Village Ghetto Land" A somewhat misleading tune, that seems whimsical at first but paints a picture of inner city ghettos and how life is like living in these slums.
"You havent done nothin!" The funkiest of all his protest songs is solely dedicated to president of the united states (at the time Nixon) and how he promises he's gonna do great things, but gives nothing but lies while doing absolutely nothing.
"Pastime Paradise" with the lyrical beat stolen by Coolio, the song is originally about how ignorance of our history will ultimately lead to our destruction and that we need to keep evolving and learning.
"Big Brother" About how the FBI and politicians kept civil rights leaders and protesters on a close watch.
"He's Miss-tra Know It all" A song about people and politicians who backstab those that put their trust in them.
So it baffles the fuck out of me, why you would call Stevie Wonder in any way "Ungrateful" He's been ungrateful his entire life, he's made his fame on being "Ungrateful". People listen to his music because he's "Ungrateful". He's "Ungrateful" because he's lived through this shit since "Great America" had laws specifically against him just for being born.
The fact that a blind man shows that he can see more clearly about the situation in the world than more than half of America should really make you fucking sit back and think for a bit.
This has always been, and ever will be about race and you cannot escape that no matter how many words you use try and cover it up...
Trigonometrize.
Member
The military is simply a HUGE part of the US at the national level. It's obviously huge in general, but combine that with the fact that a lot of things that would eat at the military's share of the pie are handled at the state level, and the military basically becomes a mascot for the US as a whole.
Master Yoshi
Member
Some folks are born, made to wave the flag
Ooh, they're red white and blue
Ooh, they're red white and blue
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It all boils down to this with them:
"Black people be respectful to a culture and country that treats them with disrespect. Because football is more important than the injustices perpetrated on them. In fact there's no way for you to protest because things are just too good for you. Reverse racism."
/entitled white piece of shit mode
"Black people be respectful to a culture and country that treats them with disrespect. Because football is more important than the injustices perpetrated on them. In fact there's no way for you to protest because things are just too good for you. Reverse racism."
/entitled white piece of shit mode
eyeball_kid
Member
I don't think a lot of people -- certainly not white liberals -- paid the flag much mind in the past because white supremacists on the street wasn't a daily thing. A lot of taking things for granted, including their privilege. And I totally agree with you, the flag for a long time in culture has been seen more as representing some 1950's white, middle America. Hot dogs and picket fences and no blacks after dark kind of stuff. But in a national network, football friendly kind of way.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
One thing I find with conservatives is this - theyre super aware of looking racist / homophobic so theyll create a hot issue to jump behind to hide it. See : flags with the kneeling debate, kids in the gay marriage debate, etc.
They dont give a fuck about the flag. Donald could wear it like a toga and they wouldnt care. Its racism, pure and simple. They like keeping people in their place, and think black people and minorities already have enough.
Also the issue is most of them being scared white people. It intimidates them. They dont see an oppressed people, they think they themselves are oppressed by being called out.
They dont give a fuck about the flag. Donald could wear it like a toga and they wouldnt care. Its racism, pure and simple. They like keeping people in their place, and think black people and minorities already have enough.
Also the issue is most of them being scared white people. It intimidates them. They dont see an oppressed people, they think they themselves are oppressed by being called out.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yes.
And may I also two of my most recent favorite Stevie songs:
Misrepresented People
https://genius.com/Stevie-wonder-misrepresented-people-lyrics
Some Years Ago
https://genius.com/Stevie-wonder-some-years-ago-lyrics
My eyes still water, bros. Stevie is NOT the one to fuck with. People are going to activate Stevie's trap card, I swear to god.
Do give these a listen if you've never heard them before.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Seconding this, Bamboozled soundtrack is flames.
Sucks that lately someone's been directing trolls to Stevie videos in YouTube
I like how before every corporate sports game they force you to recite/listen to the anthem. These games and leagues provide the biggest distraction to the working class and not only that that, they actually force patriotism on you as well.
I think the whole thing is stupid. I agree with Trump though; you'll perform a hollow gesture like kneeling but you wont walk away from millions of dollars.
The ridiculousness of it all blows my mind.
I think the whole thing is stupid. I agree with Trump though; you'll perform a hollow gesture like kneeling but you wont walk away from millions of dollars.
The ridiculousness of it all blows my mind.
You can appreciate the country in which you live and recognize its symbols, but in the end, they are just objects or concepts, and shouldnt take precedence before your fellow human beings.
In most cases, things like the flag or the anthem seem to end up functioning as proxies. Instead of directly dealing with issues or showing true patriotism through humanity and goodness, its much easier to pay lip service to nebulous idols.
Its a lot like organized religion. Its cult-like behavior.
In most cases, things like the flag or the anthem seem to end up functioning as proxies. Instead of directly dealing with issues or showing true patriotism through humanity and goodness, its much easier to pay lip service to nebulous idols.
Its a lot like organized religion. Its cult-like behavior.
Odd how this,
Never seems to illicit the sort of mania you see on display when players kneel. Flying the confederate flag is celebrating individuals who rebelled against, fought, and killed hundreds of thousands of soldiers fighting under the star spangled banner. And yet, these guys are called "decent folks" or simply people holding onto their heritage. It's all fucking bullshit.
Never seems to illicit the sort of mania you see on display when players kneel. Flying the confederate flag is celebrating individuals who rebelled against, fought, and killed hundreds of thousands of soldiers fighting under the star spangled banner. And yet, these guys are called "decent folks" or simply people holding onto their heritage. It's all fucking bullshit.
Odd how this,
Never seems to illicit the sort of mania you see on display when players kneel. Flying the confederate flag is celebrating individuals who rebelled against, fought, and killed hundreds of thousands of soldiers fighting under the star spangled banner. And yet, these guys are called "decent folks" or simply people holding onto their heritage. It's all fucking bullshit.
Yep, these people are literally flying a traitor's flag.
But fuck these black athletes for kneeling. Fuck them for challenging America and expecting this country to be better.
The real patriots are obvious.
Right. Their logic is basically "well America is working out fine for me, so anyone else 'disrespecting' the flag is abhorrent to me."
You need a complete lack of perspective, empathy, compassion, and, well, intelligence, to feel that way.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Whenever I hear the freedom thing I come back with the my people were in chains then.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Just say the N-word, Joe. You know you want to.Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.
Polioliolio
Member
Is it not a 'free country'?
Now these guys who are protesting... they're Americans. They're unhappy with the direction of trends.. how some issues are handled.. And you want to fire them or toss them out of the country?
Let's assume the worst. That these guys truly hated America, everything about it, wish they could be citizens of somewhere else... Do you still have the right to fire them or throw them out for not doing your weird religious militant song routine? Fuck you.
Hey America. I don't believe in your stupid infantile god, and would stay silent during a group prayer. You going to toss me out? Fire me? Because I don't like the things the rest of you do?
Fuck off. This hurts nobody and the rules of your country that you love so much allow for it. You should be praising it as an example of why your country is so great and be fine with it.
Now these guys who are protesting... they're Americans. They're unhappy with the direction of trends.. how some issues are handled.. And you want to fire them or toss them out of the country?
Let's assume the worst. That these guys truly hated America, everything about it, wish they could be citizens of somewhere else... Do you still have the right to fire them or throw them out for not doing your weird religious militant song routine? Fuck you.
Hey America. I don't believe in your stupid infantile god, and would stay silent during a group prayer. You going to toss me out? Fire me? Because I don't like the things the rest of you do?
Fuck off. This hurts nobody and the rules of your country that you love so much allow for it. You should be praising it as an example of why your country is so great and be fine with it.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
1) He's black
2) He's blind
Double handout.
I'm sure some people even think he can see.
Personally, I instinctively make this connection myself and, because of that, am not a big fan of these protests (but whatever, it's not like I expect all protests to cater to me). My father was a disabled veteran and growing up, respect for veterans was always paired with the national anthem and the flag. It's pretty common at sporting events for veterans to be brought forward and saluted, before the anthem plays, for example. So, it's hard for me to shake this connection, after witnessing it for so long. Logically, I know these protestors mean no disrespect to veterans, but it's honestly where my mind goes first and I have to remind myself that's not what this is about.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
What irks me to no end is I've been to a gazillion sporting events from Little league to pro in all the sports.
The fact that suddenly now people give a fuck about the anthem when half the people never cared.
It was always a smattering of people standing for the anthem. One old dude giving dudes the eye for not taking their cap off. Half the stadium is either oblivious that the anthem is going on, can't hear cause of shitty PAs, still trying to get to their seats, out in the concorse buying food/swag, or standing in the bathroom line.
Like yo mother fuckers don't try and act like it's a big deal or some shit.
The fact that suddenly now people give a fuck about the anthem when half the people never cared.
It was always a smattering of people standing for the anthem. One old dude giving dudes the eye for not taking their cap off. Half the stadium is either oblivious that the anthem is going on, can't hear cause of shitty PAs, still trying to get to their seats, out in the concorse buying food/swag, or standing in the bathroom line.
Like yo mother fuckers don't try and act like it's a big deal or some shit.
It is usually boiled down to "my country, right or wrong." It's kind of the same mindset as people who say "you don't have to like the President, but you have to respect the office."
Unless there's a democrat holding the office.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Their pent up political and/or racial aggressions are channeled into how you treat our country's flag aka symbol.
I think mistreatment of the flag is probably ungrateful in one sense, but not in any sense that should actually fucking matter: no one is trying to start a coupe and no one is actually shitting on every privilege their country gives them -- rather, they're shitting on largely unchallenged and perpetuated evils by way of defacing a mass-produced symbol, probably made in China. Defacing a symbol of the privilege -- at a gigantic cost of lost lives -- that allows them to deface a symbol of privilege can be seen as hypocrisy, but anyone with a brain can understand the subtext. It's just another form of tone policing with more incentive to act angry.
I think mistreatment of the flag is probably ungrateful in one sense, but not in any sense that should actually fucking matter: no one is trying to start a coupe and no one is actually shitting on every privilege their country gives them -- rather, they're shitting on largely unchallenged and perpetuated evils by way of defacing a mass-produced symbol, probably made in China. Defacing a symbol of the privilege -- at a gigantic cost of lost lives -- that allows them to deface a symbol of privilege can be seen as hypocrisy, but anyone with a brain can understand the subtext. It's just another form of tone policing with more incentive to act angry.
-hal-
Member
This thread makes me really sad. The generalizations and name-calling are appalling, and do nothing to further discourse on the subject.
The OP is trying to understand perspectives. Instead, we have an incredible display of close-mindedness in the other direction.
To those trying to separate the flag from the military, well, let me challenge that opinion: national flags arose almost entirely from military standards used in battle. The US flag as we know it, specifically, comes from the US Navy.
It can be argued that the military is an arm of the government, but it can get a little murky when you consider that it is a voluntary military. It gets a little more confusing for some when they have family and friends that have served or are serving, and cannot separate their loved ones from the greater entity.
It is absolutely within the rights of anyone to show a sign of protest during the display of the flag, but it does hold a different meaning to different people. Thus the source of confusion, I think.
There's no denying that the protest has been effective in the sense that it is getting attention, but perhaps the message has gotten lost, which is unfortunate. I see lots of chest-beating on both sides and very little valuable discourse.
Yes, we all know racist and/or uninformed people exist, but throwing everyone that holds an opinion about a complex subject into that bucket is offensive. The OP recognizes that there are possible unconsidered positions and is asking for those
The OP is trying to understand perspectives. Instead, we have an incredible display of close-mindedness in the other direction.
To those trying to separate the flag from the military, well, let me challenge that opinion: national flags arose almost entirely from military standards used in battle. The US flag as we know it, specifically, comes from the US Navy.
It can be argued that the military is an arm of the government, but it can get a little murky when you consider that it is a voluntary military. It gets a little more confusing for some when they have family and friends that have served or are serving, and cannot separate their loved ones from the greater entity.
It is absolutely within the rights of anyone to show a sign of protest during the display of the flag, but it does hold a different meaning to different people. Thus the source of confusion, I think.
There's no denying that the protest has been effective in the sense that it is getting attention, but perhaps the message has gotten lost, which is unfortunate. I see lots of chest-beating on both sides and very little valuable discourse.
Yes, we all know racist and/or uninformed people exist, but throwing everyone that holds an opinion about a complex subject into that bucket is offensive. The OP recognizes that there are possible unconsidered positions and is asking for those
Vinsanity.
Member
I think its just that everyone has their own opinion on the flag, how it should/shouldnt be treated...and that opinion is mostly based on their own personal life history how they were raised, if they or family were in the service, their peers and community, their upbringing and life experiences. There isnt a right or wrong answer, and its always the right thing to listen to the other side and how they feel...not retreat to your own corner and denounce them. Listen to each other and learn why they feel the way they feel.
The problem with this post is that, as other people have pointed out in this thread, if someone wants to make the argument that this is about protecting the sanctity of the flag, where the fuck were you the last...oh, I dunno...7 decades? Americans make a mockery of the flag on almost a daily basis.
That this is the moment people give a shit about the flag speaks volumes about the actual intent.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4955050/trump-obama-nfl-nba-kaepernick-kneeling/%3Fsource%3Ddam
ppl
Claiming this is purely a racial thing are also missing the point . This is a nuanced issue . I prefer obamas take on it as explained in the article above
I acknowledge the right to protest but I also see how some people can take offense at it . If it were my country I wouldn't do it for the Indian flag but wouldn't hate ppl who sat during out anthem either
ppl
Claiming this is purely a racial thing are also missing the point . This is a nuanced issue . I prefer obamas take on it as explained in the article above
I acknowledge the right to protest but I also see how some people can take offense at it . If it were my country I wouldn't do it for the Indian flag but wouldn't hate ppl who sat during out anthem either
Australia has had problems with this in the past, mainly complaints about people burning the flag in protests. A lot of it is built up into our ANZAC traditions. Conservative politicians wanted to ban burning of the flag.
Apparently burning the flag is wrong but draping it around yourself and dragging it along the ground is not ¯|_(ツ
_/¯I can get why burning a flag can be offensive for Ppl and steppin on it etc ... But you can't really have drawn and equivalence between burning it and having it draped around you and having the end touch the ground ... This is just being silly . Btw I'm all for allowing ppl to burn my country's flag . I don't like it but I won't stop them .Australia has had problems with this in the past, mainly complaints about people burning the flag in protests. A lot of it is built up into our ANZAC traditions. Conservative politicians wanted to ban burning of the flag.
Apparently burning the flag is wrong but draping it around yourself and dragging it along the ground is not ¯|_(ツ
I support the players protesting even though Im a pretty patriotic guy who grew up in a military family. I believe that protesting is fundamental right and one of the many things that makes this country great. I also like that like Kap said, the kneeling makes a statement while still showing respect for the flag and anthem.
So for me personally, its tough to get a grasp on the outrage, even as somebody who is patriotic. I have had some pretty intense discussions with family and friends over it, who are very upset by the kneeling. From what I gather they feel its disrespectful to the country that provided them the freedom and opportunity to make millions of dollars playing sports. I also often hear complaints about politics being injected into something that should be pure entertainment.
In my opinion I dont think the people Ive spoken to look at it as a race issue. I know many here feel that people being against the kneeling is only about keeping black people in their place, but I dont get that sense at all from the discussions Ive had.
So for me personally, its tough to get a grasp on the outrage, even as somebody who is patriotic. I have had some pretty intense discussions with family and friends over it, who are very upset by the kneeling. From what I gather they feel its disrespectful to the country that provided them the freedom and opportunity to make millions of dollars playing sports. I also often hear complaints about politics being injected into something that should be pure entertainment.
In my opinion I dont think the people Ive spoken to look at it as a race issue. I know many here feel that people being against the kneeling is only about keeping black people in their place, but I dont get that sense at all from the discussions Ive had.
We are just so, so, so indoctrinated.
America is the best in the world at everything. #1 at everything. You should be so proud to be American. How can you question your freedom, which brave men fought and died for?
Most Americans are incapable of applying critical thinking to anything that disrupts this conditioning, and become instantly hostile at attempts to lift the veil on what they've been trained to believe their whole lives.
Republicans are constantly tapping into all the above and using it as a lightning rod. Democrats obviously aren't playing that game since they're trying to actually govern rather than manipulate and deceive. This is one of the reasons the conditioned masses go Republican.
Anyway, I don't intend to take away from the perspective that racism is behind much of this -- I agree that it is, sadly. But I also see the indoctrination of the American people (and how the GOP learned to utilize it like a weapon) as a big factor that led us to where we're at.
I yearn for this country to get well.
America is the best in the world at everything. #1 at everything. You should be so proud to be American. How can you question your freedom, which brave men fought and died for?
Most Americans are incapable of applying critical thinking to anything that disrupts this conditioning, and become instantly hostile at attempts to lift the veil on what they've been trained to believe their whole lives.
Republicans are constantly tapping into all the above and using it as a lightning rod. Democrats obviously aren't playing that game since they're trying to actually govern rather than manipulate and deceive. This is one of the reasons the conditioned masses go Republican.
Anyway, I don't intend to take away from the perspective that racism is behind much of this -- I agree that it is, sadly. But I also see the indoctrination of the American people (and how the GOP learned to utilize it like a weapon) as a big factor that led us to where we're at.
I yearn for this country to get well.
iamaustrian
Member
I never understood the over the top flag worshipping/humdy-dumpdy patrionism in the USA.
It seems like brainwashing citizens with the ususal "We are the best! FREEDOM!" mentality at full force.
where else in the world do people fly their counntries' flag in front of their houses?
It seems like brainwashing citizens with the ususal "We are the best! FREEDOM!" mentality at full force.
where else in the world do people fly their counntries' flag in front of their houses?
Dude you peeps are far from indoctrinated . I have spoken to trump supporters and they listen ... You cant broad brush them away just cause you don't like their opinions . That is literally what liberals stand for acceptance of dissenting viewpoints (no one is saying support the spencer types were saying acknowledge the guy who isn't a racist but doesn't Agree with you ) . They aren't all Nazis and racists . This is a nuanced issue . My biggest beef with the left and I identify liberal is we're at some moments just as quick as the wacko right to simplify a complex issue into a sound byte. Come on guys . Be the better person .
Edit IMO that makes me a true liberal not a harsh purity test
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
idk what the fuck these nfl dudes are protesting about i didnt wanna stand for the national anthem cuz i was lazy lmao
I don't think pondering on the root cause means I'm necessarily trying to 'brush away' everything, but yes, I will admit to being beyond frustrated with anyone who either supports or turns a blind eye to what's going on in this country.
Especially when their disagreements or differing opinions are not based on reality. I'd be happy to work better on finding a way to reach these people, but the thing they support is harmful, dangerous, and not something that should be treated as acceptable.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
.
Theres 100% no point in pretending it has anything to do with respecting the military after electing Donald Trump after those public comments. No public figure in recent memory has been so openly disrespectful to actual veterans than that man and now hes president.
Drop the respect for the military crap. Its clearly and transparently 100% bullshit
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