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Digital Foundry: Gran Turismo Sport is HDR's killer app
- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
... and kids this is why the industry does not choose 60 FPS with VR in mind too (so even higher target than 60 Hz) as standard
.... and kids this is why the industry does not choose 60 FPS with VR in mind too (so even higher target than 60 Hz) as standard
I don't think the details I'm talking about are about wanting a 60fps cap, it could be a RAM limitation.
But Fwiw, it's a very silly comment considering I'm comparing with another game on a similar system that is also 60fps.
And the context is "HDR killer app"
Its almost like the priorities are inverted between gameplay and replay. In gameplay I want to see a detailed track. Detailed cars are nice but I think they dont need to be as detailed as in replays or photo mode. Also only their asses need to be detailed. In replays the car is the star
Obviously there are always compromises but if you had the memory you could store two detail levels and switch between to prioritise GPU power as needed
Obviously there are always compromises but if you had the memory you could store two detail levels and switch between to prioritise GPU power as needed
There are different trade-offs.
Reflections are slightly lower quality on GT but appear to update at full rate. Forza seems to update all reflections at 30fps instead.
Oh I was meaning to check but not got around to it, does FM7 on PC allow you to change it to 60fps?
It's such a jarring part of FM games.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Sounds like both games do some things better than the other. Looking forward to the video, should be a very interesting watch. Hopefully it will shut up some of the GT Sport haters, claiming it looks last gen and can't compare to Forza at all.
Team Andromeda
Member
Shame DF didn't point out many of the game issues like high use of 2D assets lack of 3D polygons used on the Tire walls, when you crash there is nothing, but in Forza you get debris and tires flying everywhere, also the level of detail is quite jarring in places and very noticeable on the marshalls etc
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
Shame DF didn't point out many of the game issues like high use of 2D assets lack of 3D polygons used on the Tire walls, when you crash there is nothing, but in Forza you get debris and tires flying everywhere, also the level of detail is quite jarring in places and very noticeable on the marshalls etc
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
Maybe that might be mentioned in a video comparing Forza and GTS, rather than a video focusing on GTS HDR implementation?
mario_O
Member
Shame DF didn't point out many of the game issues like high use of 2D assets lack of 3D polygons used on the Tire walls, when you crash there is nothing, but in Forza you get debris and tires flying everywhere, also the level of detail is quite jarring in places and very noticeable on the marshalls etc
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
this is a video about HDR, jeez. but we get it, you like your xbox better.
Shame DF didn't point out many of the game issues like high use of 2D assets lack of 3D polygons used on the Tire walls, when you crash there is nothing, but in Forza you get debris and tires flying everywhere, also the level of detail is quite jarring in places and very noticeable on the marshalls etc
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
What are you trying to say with that last sentence?
Team Andromeda
Member
No, I just expect a little better from DF. GT Sports has many GFX issues on the trackside and the LOD is very noticeable, like a step back to F1 on the PS
.Car model and HDR wise, this game is the best, but at a big cost to the trackside detail and high use of LODSerious Sam
Member
I watched DF video in HDR on my Galaxy S8 and at first I thought it looked great, but that was because I had no point of reference, so then I proceeded to watch another GT Sport video in SDR and it looked pretty much just as good, maybe just a touch dimmer. So meh, still not sold on HDR. It will be nice to have when I upgrade my TV in the future, but I really don't feel like I should be running out and buying a new TV just for this feature.
I also want to point out that Youtube's tonemapping to SDR is horrible, so on SDR displays this video appears worse than normal SDR footage would appear, giving an illusion that HDR is leaps and bounds better.
I also want to point out that Youtube's tonemapping to SDR is horrible, so on SDR displays this video appears worse than normal SDR footage would appear, giving an illusion that HDR is leaps and bounds better.
This is an unfair comment to make. The video isn't what it is due to HDR - it required so much effort to make that I couldn't dig in as deeply.Shame DF didn't point out many of the game issues like high use of 2D assets lack of 3D polygons used on the Tire walls, when you crash there is nothing, but in Forza you get debris and tires flying everywhere, also the level of detail is quite jarring in places and very noticeable on the marshalls etc
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
That said, I disagree with your assessment now after spending the morning comparing the two.
Forza and GT both use 2D trees but the tree textures are more detailed and better lit in GT. Forza just slaps two flat surfaces together but it's still ultimately 2D in nature.
GT also uses a fully modeled 3D crowd on all tracks aside from the giant stadiums. Forza's crowd is entirely 2D.
GT has more details than I expected when looking closely.
Again, this first video was limited because of the HDR production time. It was a nightmare.No, I just expect a little better from DF. GT Sports has many GFX issues on the trackside and the LOD is very noticeable, like a step back to F1 on the PS
I'm working on a more detailed video putting Forza 7 and GTS side by side and I think you're going to be genuinely shocked by the results. I honestly expected Forza 7 to crush GT in terms of track side detail but it's absolutely not the case.
I can see why, though. Forza has a lower contrast look even in HDR and its flaws don't stick out as much while racing, which is a very important thing, but if you look closely at individual assets, you can see that Polyphony put in the work. The tracks ARE detailed.
Dictator93
Member
I would not let it get under your skin. I have no idea how hard the HDR capture and rework is in comparison to normal footage, but it cannot be easy given its newness for DF and for editing software in general. Now only if I had an HDR screen to consume it on
And yeah, I am not sure why the trees in Forza seem to have such low specular response. They look extremely diffuse. Even if it is just 2 bisecting Placards smacked together, you would hope they at least got the materials right in those placards to help with depth (normals and what not). But they all look really diffuse, and really flat shaded as a result.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
No wonder it is the HDR killer app since it has the best and most future proof HDR so far supporting HDR TVs with up to 10000 nits.
Dictator93
Member
THere are quite interestingly options in the config file for Battlefront 2 which allow you to adjust the max nits IIRC. Technically those could also be similarly fuure proofed. Whether they are mastered as nicely is a different question of course
It's the same trade off that was in act on PS3 and 360: GT on PS3 had lower quality reflection but at full refresh rate when forza was 30fps (iirc even on the rear view mirror).
Team Andromeda
Member
It's far more noticeable in Sports and I don't really want to talk much of Forza 7 as I'm waiting to play it more on the One X rather than on my One S, where I can really compare it far more fairly to Sports running on my Pro.
But I will say there is more use of 3D polygons for trackside details like tire walls in Forza, the cockpit in Forza is better animated too, nevermind the weather effects
In GT sports, drive up slowly to the marshals and see big jump in level of detail as you get close, it's like a throwback, to PS era
Car model and HDR wise I agree with you, it's ahead of anything else out there, but at big costs to the detail gfx used elsewhere in the game and features like dynamic weather.
PD used to be the best on the PS and PS2 (GT 3 is a showcase for the system and looked better than most 360 racers) , but they've lost that magic since the PS3 era and games like Project Cars 2 are pushing ahead with features like weather systems and patterns and AI (which is still poor in GT)
Thats a Greay Area
Member
Thanks for your efforts, looking forward to the comparison. Which versions will you be comparing? Do you have final code for both GTS and the 1X version of F7?
GTS has some great details, I was watching one of my replays and a spectator came out from behind the fence to wave at the camera. Just amazing!
It also has some weird areas like my car clipping through a sidewall during a race.
You seem obsessed with the tire wall but I can point to a number of other higher polygon objects in GT as well.
What I've found is that some objects are more detailed in Forza, others more detailed in GT.
Seriously, you haven't seen anything yet. The difference, when you compare side by side, is nothing like you seem to think. GT has a lot more going on than expected.
No. I've decided to use the PC version using Ultra settings. It's beyond what Xbox One X offers (reflections and rear view can update at full frame-rate on PC, for instance) but it's much closer than using the 1080p XO version.
Thankfully, F7 runs flawlessly on my PC at 4K60 using Ultra.
But is it final code for GT Sport? If it's just the demo then the track selection is not very expansive.
I'd love a comparison of Nordschleife in both games, but that track was not available in demo.
Forza 7 still "fakes" its car reflections like the last gen Forzas and PGR4 though. They just take the last frame in the memory buffer and use that as the reflection rather than using a static cube map like GTS, which is more demanding and requires the decrease in resolution. This is why in Forza 7 the blue driving line aid that can be turned on or off still gets reflected onto the cars.
Shame DF didn't point out many of the game issues like high use of 2D assets lack of 3D polygons used on the Tire walls, when you crash there is nothing, but in Forza you get debris and tires flying everywhere, also the level of detail is quite jarring in places and very noticeable on the marshalls etc
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
And are you guys seriously trying to dog on GTS trees when Forza uses 2D cutouts throughout the whole track, ones that don't even react to the environment lighting or self-shadow? GTS actually has a fair amount of roadside 3D trees like Driveclub too.
Forza 7
GTS
Yautja_Warrior
Member
It will also be interesting to see if the GT Sport demo was using a slightly older build or if there are any more improvements in the final build, although I'd be fine if this is it, as it already looks fantastic.
Speaking of tire walls, I got a kick seeing how they've changed from last gen:
GT6 vs GTS
It is a SHAME that "digital" foundry claims to be a house of technology when they are clearly teh bias. Where is the analsis of such outdated concept like tree? Air? Why last gen things like bus. Please redo this.
I am a tree enthusiast. I frequently drive around in real life at high speeds and look at tree. This game embarrassing. Yoshi Island have better tree.
I am a tree enthusiast. I frequently drive around in real life at high speeds and look at tree. This game embarrassing. Yoshi Island have better tree.
Team Andromeda
Member
Well in car games one tends to crash now and again. Running into a barrier in Forza gives the player a sense of impact and you see bits going flying, none of that in Sports never mind a far weaker damage car model system which is basic to the extreme and then you get the jarring level of detail used on objects
Like I said, Car model wise Sports is the best there is, but at huge costs to details elsewhere and feature sets like damage models, weather system and even good AI.
Frostman
Member
i mean...... are you trying too say Forza has better AI than GTS?
Because thats bollocks.
old manatee
Banned
Has chromatic aberration had a killer app yet?
Frostman
Member
Apologies, wont bother responding anymore.
Team Andromeda
Member
Yeah I am actually
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Well he did say GTS does some things better and Forza does some things better.
Both games aren't perfect but they are both good in different ways. But I suspect you favour the Xbox and Forza from your reply's, so even with a video showing how good GTS is, it probably won't change your mind.
irrotational
Member
My 2016 OLED with hdr, but out of date YouTube app, is sad
I'm going to have to sign up as a patreon and use the 2004 technology of USB memory sticks
Amazing work to produce side by side content though, first chance I will ever get to really see hdr in action.
P.S. I would *definitely* choose my next racing game based on the trees!
I'm going to have to sign up as a patreon and use the 2004 technology of USB memory sticks
Amazing work to produce side by side content though, first chance I will ever get to really see hdr in action.
P.S. I would *definitely* choose my next racing game based on the trees!
Team Andromeda
Member
I agree both games have issues and shortcomings. The 30fps on the review mirror with Forza is quite jarring, don't get that all in sports. I would have liked to see a full dynamic weather system for all the tracks too.
In many ways Project Cars 2 is pushing ahead of both, just a shame Slightly Mad don't have assess to the same kind of budget or team size
Perfect, thank you John.
Team Andromeda
Member
Agreed, I also think Resident Evil 7 makes some of the best use of HDR too The lighting effects used on the lamps etc is so real, its scary
dark10x is sure to regret his words and deeds
PdotMichael
Banned
Some people either haven't play GTS, Forza or any other sim racer in the past 10 years.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Are all 3 of these on Netflix?
BigEmil
Junior Member
I remember when GT Sport was first revealed everyone was dogpiling on how bad it looks and how Forza will be the best looker now that it turned out to be the opposite which GT Sport is the better visual techpiece overall, the Forza fans trying their best to bring down GT Sport and downplay everything while trying to push the notion again that Forza is better, embarassing
Ah, only good guys Sony fans, only bad guy Microsoft fans. Amazing how simple the world actually is.
ethomaz
Banned
Expected a bit better from DigitalFoundry, but there again this is SONY
Well let's just say that sometimes being transparent and or slightly bias is preferable rather than pretending to be....
LoL
Really Looking forward to this game HDR implementation. I've been really thirsty on good HDR implementation games
CouchMaster
Member
This should be interesting, can't wait lol.