reptilescorpio
Member
Never found the combat very deep or overly enjoyable in Zelda, played more for the exploration element than for combat. TW2 is up there with Demons Souls as most satisfying combat in an RPG.VisanidethDM said:
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings |OT| Plough 'Em All
- Thread starter Snuggles
- Start date
- Status
VisanidethDM
Banned
Snuggler said:
Mostly anything since OoT. It's simple, but... it works. TW2 doesn't really work. It's definitely ambitious, because it tries to combine the immediate reactions of action games with a slew of roleplaying mechanics like pause-and-cast, vigor, cooldowns and whatnot. But the ambition is its downfall. You can't make a fast paced game with action game mechanics that, judged on their own, would make it one of the most unresponsive, stiff and clunky action games ever and then say "But it's fine, cause this is an RPG too, cause there's numbers and talents and shit".
They should have stuck their guns to something. IF that had to be the action game part, then they would had needed to make something more polished. Not asking for a DMC, here, but at least close to a God of War / Darksiders in terms of responsiveness, targeting and collision detection. TW2 is not even close to that.
And if it had to stick to its RPG nature... it's not like the RPG mechanics are on par with the best in the genre either. Sure, there's quite a lot of nice talents, but Diablo 2 this ain't not.
In the end it dabbles too much in both territories and it doesn't do good enough in either.
Then, on a personal note,
I honestly find a lot of the design and balancing amateurish. The entire idea of making kiting mobs around in a 2011 game is beyond me. It looks terrible, it's not fun, it breaks immersion - expecially in such a good looking game. You have a nigh photorealistic looking game where there's a dude running away from a mob, hiding, then rushing in, hitting once or twice, running away again, repeat. The balance of spells is suspicious too, and overall I feel that the game has an identity crisis, because it's clear CDProject wanted to add a feeling of grittyness by having a strong focus on playing defensively, but the implementation of defensive mechanics is much, much more amateurish compared to the offensive ones - understandably, getting defence right in action games is though - and the game suffers from it.
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a worse of both worlds case, but much like TW1, I think TW2 tries to do something fairly unique without succeeding in any particular way.
Eh, not really.reptilescorpio said:
Part of me wants to experience these responsiveness bugs people are talking about, because there is nothing broken about TW2 combat to me. It definitely "works".VisanidethDM said:
There is really no comparison to Zelda. Zelda does nothing complex with the combat system, and just mixes it up via enemy design. This is certainly more accessible I guess, but it's also shallow.
You don't have to spoiler tag your opinions on kiting. Did you like Demon's Souls? There was kiting in that. I don't have a problem with it.VisanidethDM said:
VisanidethDM
Banned
reptilescorpio said:
Demons Souls is a different case. Not only the technical implementation is much better than in TW2's case (it's not mint, but hit detection and responsiveness is on a whole other level), but DS does actually get defence right (ironically, implementing almost the same mechanics).
Plus, on its own, DS's combat isn't particularly great. If DS was easy, we would call the combat system clumsy. It's slow, it lacks variety, and it's more or less the same through the whole game. What elevates it is the context in which the combat is inserted. The level design, the boss design, the enemy AI, the gear system and more importantly the way challenge is handled in the game take the weaknesses of the combat system and turn them into virtues. Feeling weak and fragile is suddenly a plus, because the game stops being a badass one man army game and becomes a fantasy survival horror.
TW2 misses this step. It's not nearly balanced enough, and it's all over the place in terms of design and AI. It sort of plays like DS, but with the approach to enemy design and AI of Arkham Asylum. And of on top of that, it doesn't have the mood of DS.
VisanidethDM
Banned
Fredescu said:
Address it here. The problem is, in the end, that TW2 sort of tries to be DS and Arkham Asylum at the same time, while not being as good as either in their own mechanics, and certainly not pulling the hybrid gameplay off brilliantly.
It's not terrible, the combat system, but I sort of felt like playing the game despite it instead of because of it. The game's strengths lie elsewhere. If this game looked like Nier, we wouldn't have this discussion I think.
VisanidethDM
Banned
Tokubetsu said:
We're talking combat here. Once again, TW2's talent system is closer to a GoW than to a Diablo 2, in terms of dept, and that doesn't elevate it to a different genre than Zelda in my opinion.
reptilescorpio
Member
To be honest that is exactly why I enjoyed it so much. I found the combat of all three games really satisfying once I came to terms with each system. I haven't had many problems with TW2 combat system like other people so maybe the cleaner experience has had more effect on me. At the moment I can't think of another aRPG that had combat that I found as satisfying as Demons Souls and TW2.VisanidethDM said:
The encounter design definitely isn't as consistent as DS, but in some cases that's a strength. You can't rely on the same method for every encounter, and that's satisfying to me. Dying a couple of times and having to stop and think about the tools I have and how to use them is terribly enjoyable. Then you have an encounter like the Kayran which infuriatingly throws this out the window and gives you a very specific set victory path. It's definitely not perfect, but when it's on song it's a lot of fun.VisanidethDM said:
VisanidethDM said:
it's not the best combat system ever but it's definitely one of the most deep and satisfying systems in action RPGs. Asking it to have "at least" God of War responsiveness is bold. God of War had perfect responsiveness in my opinion. I didn't play DMC though, the demo felt too slow to me.
I've just hit the crossroads part in act 1, and I really don't know what to do. I think that had I not heard from others about
path, I wouldn't even be second-guessing though. It seems to me that
Guess I'll make the decision tomorrow, either way.
Iorveth's
by this point, the game has only really shown Roche to be decent (he is the only person who doubted Geralt's guilt, after all), and Iorveth to be kind of a dork. Were I to go strictly by the game, I would choose Roche. But I know things aren't that simple, and according to Roche's journal entry, he is anti-nonhuman or something, and I have heard from friends that Iorveth's path is cool.
Guess I'll make the decision tomorrow, either way.
reptilescorpio
Member
Both paths are great and both contain quests, areas and information you won't get on the other side. You will end up playing again to try the other side so don't worry too much.Aeana said:
Cheesy?Jintor said:
Aside from the spiders in Chapter 1 I never really ran back away from an enemy, it was more about positioning myself towards the next target rather than being overly defensive. Splitting up the enemies but not letting myself get surrounded led to some great fluid gameplay, especially using Aard.
Regarding the combat discussion, I found The Witcher 2's combat system to be my favorite when compared to those in other Western Action-RPGs like Risen, Oblivion, the Gothics, Two Worlds, etc. It's not perfect by any means, and a couple of issues need to be addressed, but the base system that CDPR has to work with for future games is much to my liking. The combat system by itself is not complex, but it effortlessly encourages the use of different tactics to succeed, and that's its greatest strength.
I guess it depends on what type of combat you find enjoyable. I love rolling around my opponents, going in for a kill when I have an opening and at times making a tactical retreat if the environment demands it. I guess some people just want a more traditional system where you stand around like a badass and block incoming blows without running around the room and the game doesn't really allow for that.Jintor said:
Jintor said:
I think kiting sucks in general as a gameplay principle. What idiot turns his back to the enemy? I mean, it's ok to run away as a tactic but you can't counterattack so fast if you have no eyes on the back.
Well, this doesn't bother me (vidjagames!) but it could be done better.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Van Buren said:
Rolling is the lore appropriate defence technique too. The guy fights stuff which would break both his arms if he tried to block them.
Enkidu said:
No, I like rolling around the room as much as the next guy, but somehow it just turns into kiting instead of the cool tactical awareness thing you seem to have going.
Van Buren said:
There's my goddamn problem. My head is continually comparing it to perhaps the most fluid and responsive action game of all time, Bayonetta. > >
toastyToast
Member
moved into my new house and ive got no phone, internet or tv. posting from my kindle 
how was the patch, anything notable?
im about to finish a pure alchemy run on hard. no points spent in either mage or swordsman. its defintely doable, having a lot more fun actually.
how was the patch, anything notable?
im about to finish a pure alchemy run on hard. no points spent in either mage or swordsman. its defintely doable, having a lot more fun actually.
reptilescorpio
Member
Sounds like you want the perfect videogame, not a fantastic improvement on the current genre.Jintor said:
I would love a FPS spanning several generations moving from modern day antics to Tie fighter battles in the future to fighting through the bowels of hell to save the Earth from slavery at the hands of the devil. Branching storylines with at least 600 hours of content so it would be the last video game you would ever buy and your experience would probably only be replicated in 1 in 50,000 cases. If I had a boatload of money (and talent) that would be my perfect game. /end random tangent
Not for me but it removed the DRM I think? Seems to fix a lot of the installer/frontend issues.toasty_T said:
reptilescorpio
Member
What do you think of taking out the pause function that was in the first game?Jintor said:
reptilescorpio said:
I actually quite like the slow-down-but-don't-pause thing the quick menu and stuff has going. Different kind of game, after all.
Maybe it's great RPG combat, I dunno, I tend to dislike RPG combat... thinking about it, I can't think of an RPG where I really loved the combat elements instead of treating it as more barricades to get to the good stuff. In that respect I can probably call Witcher 2 a great success in making more enjoyable combat.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Jintor said:
Only thing I don't like is that Geralt stops running while you use it. Would be better if he kept going in the directions you were holding the keys, just in slowmo.
reptilescorpio
Member
Yeah I prefer the radial slowdown but maybe the change from pauseable, strategic combat to actual realtime combat might have made you think of the combat differently. I felt the RPG elements are still there, mainly in setting yourself up before the battle and then once you are in battle you have tons of spells, oils, bombs, traps and movement options to choose from on the fly. Would you see the combat in something like Diablo 2 as more RPG like than TW2?Jintor said:
Ah, well I can see that then. It certainly can be improved but I can't think of many better combat systems in an RPG. It was a lot better than the tap-tap-tap of the first game (even though I still enjoyed that system for what it was). This is only RED's second game so I would expect them to continue to improve across the board.Jintor said:
The combat isn't perfect in the game, and I don't think anyone is saying it is, but damn, its so much better than the jank we usually get in these Eastern European games. Like, I played Two Worlds II back in January and my god did The Witcher 2 expose every. single. aspect. of that game as the vastly inferior product it is.
reptilescorpio said:
That's a great way to put it, actaully - the RPG being in the preparation and versatility while the action is in the combat and the moment-to-moment feel of battle. I just feel they need to get a better handle on the action and let a few of the RPG elements (targeting, lack of responsiveness) go.
reptilescorpio
Member
Not anymore! Less banging around in this one too, Geralt is feeling the love now that he has regained a few memories. It is scientifically proven that people with Amnesia are sex addicts.Aeana said:
reptilescorpio
Member
Yeah they took a LOT more from Demons Souls than Batman, the flashiness of Arkham Asylum wasn't pulled off perfectly and it results in the complaints of stuff like changing equipment not working properly. Fiddling with the skills to allow combat to function as people want would help too. I'm of the opinion that Geralt is trying to strike one enemy at a time, as someone would in real life rather than trying to slash across several enemies at once. A proper polish of the system should get it running a lot better, maybe that is why I am a bit nicer to it than others have been. The best example in my head is ME1->ME2. The mechanics were polished so well that I could overlook the drop in story quality. The stepup from TW1 to 2 excites me for what their third game will play like. Bioware have been doing the RPG thing for a hell of a long time. If RED are still around in a decade I can see them putting out some incredibly polished games, where the word 'jank' doesn't need to be uttered in reference to the geographic genre.Jintor said:
RPGs need to allow for character customisation, and those that do enjoy RPG combat find enjoyment out of the strategic aspect of building a character and seeing how that affects encounters as the game and the character progresses. Comparing it to Bayonetta or Arkham Asylum or Zelda is ignoring half the game.Jintor said:
In order to make the game more like Bayonetta? I think you're barking up the wrong tree genre wise. RPG fans don't want to see more of our favourite genre have all the RPG elements removed.Jintor said:
If this game played out more like AA that would have been fine to. I loved the combat in that one, even if it was fairly simplified.
It kind of sounds like perks and persistant character-building and level-grinding qualifies under this description. In any case, I don't see how comparisons to more action-y games 'ignores half the game', since I think these various other elements can be moved successfully into an action context.
They're pretty clearly moving into an action space. If the RPG genre can be successfully melded with the third-person shooter, why wouldn't it work married to an action game? Witcher 2 is already halfway up that ladder already...
It kind of sounds like perks and persistant character-building and level-grinding qualifies under this description. In any case, I don't see how comparisons to more action-y games 'ignores half the game', since I think these various other elements can be moved successfully into an action context.
They're pretty clearly moving into an action space. If the RPG genre can be successfully melded with the third-person shooter, why wouldn't it work married to an action game? Witcher 2 is already halfway up that ladder already...
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Easily makes you see the flaws. It's just a well rounded experience. I wouldn't even put Zelda in the same category.Solo said:
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Aeana said:
My sister walked into the room when I was escaping the castle in the prologue and said she thought he was hot. She also asked if I was playing God of War.
:/
True story.
reptilescorpio
Member
I meant more that he would have been trained to strike with precision rather than sweeping blows in order to kill his foe. Seems a bit sloppy. He has tons of ways to deal with the fact that there are multiple opponents.Fredescu said:
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Aeana said:
I actually think his body texture was a bit too small / lacking in detail, and if it looked a bit more realistic (the scars in particular didn't look all that convincing from memory) it wouldn't look as off-putting as it does.
Also, they seriously need to work on character hair for the next game in the series. When everything else looks so good it just makes it stand out that much more. Also, that thing where when you climb down ladders your swords disappear jars me every time. As does the obvious re-alignment of the character model when you knock guards out from behind. And also when you see the colour filters of the world change when you walk through a door (happens in Flotsam all the time).
- Status