Nostremitus
Member
Roger, gotcha, I was thinking in terms of power draw while in "WiiUconnect24" mode. (Whatever they end up calling it.)
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Rumor: Wii U final specs
- Thread starter EatChildren
- Start date
Roger, gotcha, I was thinking in terms of power draw while in "WiiUconnect24" mode. (Whatever they end up calling it.)
Brad Grenz
Member
But the thing is, we're not talking about a 200 watt monster. Granted, there will be variation in GPU power consumption, but we're talking about a swing between 15 and 30watts. That is a realistic range for the WiiU. And thst doesn't actually change the math in terms of peak Flops.
DragonSworne
Banned
It would be nice to know if at 30W if the GPU is being utilized at 100%.
Maybe Nintendo put a power limit on the GPU and it will never get to it's theoretical max? Probably the same holds true for the CPU.
Nostremitus
Member
If memory serves, Nintendo likes to underclock their processors to improve reliability.
You mean the 300-600 GFLOPS are refering to peak performances?
Brad Grenz
Member
No. That's not how it works. Max flops are max flops, a chip just runs hotter or cooler, drawing more or less power, depending on the specific work load.
I don't understand, sorry.
To me it sounds like you are contradicting what the others have said about the relation power draw - performance.
When you're using a crappy metric like GFLOPS/watt to estimate the flops based on an estimated wattage it does work like that. Maybe in Iwatas 40w scenario the GPU only uses 80% of its maximum power consumption. In that case it could have up to 37w for the max power draw instead of 30w. If you want 600 DFLOP then it's just 16 GFLOP/w
Max flops are max flops, and max watt is max watt. What he means is, when the GPU is not being pushed to its limits, it will not be consuming the maximum amount of wattage. Whether you chose to discribe it being pushed to the limit in flops or fairy dust, doesn't matter.
But if you're trying to figure out what GPU can fit inside a console with a 40-50w power draw then a 15w swing is pretty massive. Especially when the figure being used for the prospective GPU's is max power draw.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
What does that mean? GPGPU is not a thing, it just means the GPU has stream processors that can be used by non-rendering software for calculations. I've seen many posts saying the GPGPU in the Wii U is some magic bullet to make up for a weak CPU.
IT WON'T.
Know why? The GPU is rendering the games, it can't do both general processing and frame buffering render at the same time (at least not well).
The same stream processors cannot be used for two things at once. The PS4 leaked info had two GPUs, one for the rendering and one with the CPU for GPGPU. The Wii U has one GPU. It is also not like the PS3 where developers use a few SPUs to help the GPU, there are six (available) independent SPUs in the PS3.
Take it from a guy who is daily is running GPGPU calculations via CUDA while ray racing volumes at the same time on one GPU, the performance of both is hindered. My rendering frame rate is like 1/3 when the CUDA code is running.
So unless Nintendo has some sort of magic, the GPU is not going to help much while the game is actually rendering. Now if the CPU is so weak that they would rather scale back the rendering performance to help it, fine, but that mean things are pretty dire.
GDDR5 RAM as well as far as I know, which uses quite a bit more power then slower memory types.
I never understood the argument that the PS4 and Nextbox would put WiiU to shame because they would be 3x more powerful...when it seems that the WiiU is around 2-3x more powerful than the PS360 and people are complaining...I also don't understand the argument that the next boxes will show major improvements over year 2 WiiU software when devs will be getting used to new architectures all over again...This is mostly toward Brad and Special...I would understand it better if the argument was that by the second wave of PS4 and Nextbox games they will start to show improvements and after that more than likely surpass WiiU graphics...but to say that year 2 software on WiiU won't even matter with launch games from the others systems is just silly in my opinion. Some developers are flat out saying that they need more time to figure out the CPU and how the whole systems works best. Some of you don't quote those lines though. The architecture is different. The CPU is def different than what the devs are used to but that doesn't mean that the total package is crap and worse off. You use a system to its strengths...you don't use a system in a way that its not really built to be used, no matter how powerful it may be. That is the key. The launch games look fine. The games will get better. We all know Sony and Microsoft are going to come out with awesome tech demos and trailers to wow us. Nintendo hopefully is preparing for this with some awesome games. My bet is that they are but that's just my opinion. When those systems launch we will see. A LOTof people are going to look like fools. Which side those fools are on we will see. I'm more in the middle ground and happy about it. My opinion is that it won't be as bad as PS2 to XBOX splinter cell differences. I just don't see it. I don't see how someone can look at a game like Assassins Creed or Uncharted, expect some improvements with the WiiU but when the PS4 and Nextbox come out say the WiiU is rubbish. That just doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand that line of thinking. Sorry so long Friday night here in Korea and I'm drinking hahaha
The key assumption behind this argument is that the WiiU is only on par with the PS360, and not more powerful.
Not to mention that the e6760 is a 40nm part. If they have shrunk the die, it will use even less power.
There are plenty of examples of PC games that have an option to shift physics to the GPU and they provide the same graphics with better physics then when using the CPU. Of course using flops for physics will allow less for rendering, that has to be balanced by the developer and no nobody's claiming its a magic bullet. But neither is the idea of physics on a GPU as pointless as you're making it sound. GPGPU functionality can absolutely take significant burden away from a CPU during rendering and as you know there is no fixed amount it would slow rendering down by. Obviously just because you're experiencing that level of slow down with your code doesn't make it a guideline for any GPGPU work done on any GPU.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I don't recall anybody claiming that the GPGPU comes for free.
It's a simple fact of matter, though, that the GPU will handle some GP tasks better than the CPU. All next-get GPUs will be dong that. Will their framerates 'universally suffer' from that? It really depends what the games are trying to do - what their GP tasks and the rendering tasks involve.
Last but not least, games don't necessarily shoot for infinite framerates, whereas CUDA tasks do - they try to get max performance, sustained. Console games don't to do that - they aim for fixed performances (whether that fixed performance is close to the GPU's max is another matter).
Yup and as Earendil mentioned, if the die has been shrunk it will be even less. Add the (almost certainly) lower clock and its not out of the realm of possibility by any means.
Just been reading that GPR amount plays a role in whether a gpu is dx certified. Now, if Nintendo were to take a dx10.1 part and add GPRs....maybe they were trying to achieve closer parity with dx11 equivalent parts?
And if Matt's info is taken from a dev kit with this 'placeholder' r700+extra GPRs gpu (not saying it is, just a guess) then maybe Nintendo were trying to replicate what their final gpu might look like?
No idea if that makes sense. It's 100% speculation!
DragonSworne
Banned
The thing with power consumption is that enery is fuild and flucuates from conponent to conponent based on need. I also doubt any game right now on WiiU is pushing it to it's max.
One way to pinpoint performance threshold using wattage is to take a mutliplatform game and see how much of the total power it consumes. Use the rest of the power left over to come up with a reasonable estimate on how much better WiiU can do.
Even then, the multiplatform game will not be optimized and a lot of performance can be gained from optimization. :/
It just shows how power usage isn't very good performance measurement either. :/
What Power Consumption can tell is what parts can actually fit in the system. And then from those parts we can understand the potential performance.
One way to pinpoint performance threshold using wattage is to take a mutliplatform game and see how much of the total power it consumes. Use the rest of the power left over to come up with a reasonable estimate on how much better WiiU can do.
Even then, the multiplatform game will not be optimized and a lot of performance can be gained from optimization. :/
It just shows how power usage isn't very good performance measurement either. :/
What Power Consumption can tell is what parts can actually fit in the system. And then from those parts we can understand the potential performance.
snowdog1971
Banned
Blimey, I couldn't disagree with you more mate. It's a Nintendo console launching with a 2D Mario as well as several other system sellers either on launch day or during the launch window, including Monster Hunter U not only as a launch title in Japan but also with a bundle.
It's going to fly off shelves worldwide imo.
Shin Johnpv
Member
What rendering engine are you using and what video card? The latest Nvidia ones have been slower than previous gens, since Nvidia is trying to make everyone spend the money on Quadros.
If the Wii U CPU was deliberately gimped because Nntendo thought "just do it on GPGPU" I think that was short sighted.
Well, I can try and ignore it and just play games, but I had no problem with a bigger console and bigger fan (within reason). Nintendo's attitude towards this just diminishes what's possible.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Well, thats not really the same thing. PCs generally have alot more spare resources than a console. When you flip the switch to turn on your Physx or whatever, depending on the card you have, you will notice a fair amount of framerate drop. More or less.
On consoles, developers have to budget the resources and generally, pretty graphics win out. Other than this generations relative lack of logical hardware power, I don't know CPUs were to burdened anyway.Most were trying not to wreck their brains figuring what else they could move to the CPU.
If you want to get deeper into it we can but GPUs aren't really the god-send for phyics like some make them out to be. There are some aspects where a good CPU would best it at.
I really don't agree with this. But I've seen "GP" cover so many different aspects that I really don't have a clear idea what you may be alluding to.
GPGPUs are pretty much a huge collection of SIMD units. Alot like Cell SPE's except exponentially more HP. It shares the same drawbacks though.
1. Memory Latency. The hardest one to shake because GPUs are sorta built to tolerate latency rather than combat it.
2. A Wide-Simd lane so it will generally struggle with anything logical
3. A lack of branch HW. This was the case for this gen so it won't be that big of a change next-generation but the few developers I know aren't fond of this at all.
Personally, I would rather just integrate a few decent SIMD units in the CPU and let my GPU do its thing but perspective is always intresting.
What would you rather see?
It seems like the press releases below keep getting ignored, no?
In my view, the Wii U GPU has been right in front of our faces, and has been for a while.
First,
Green Hills Software's MULTI Integrated Development Environment Selected by Nintendo for Wii U Development
http://www.ghs.com/news/20120327_ESC_Nintendo_WiiU.html
Second,
In May of this year, it was announced that the AMD Radeon E6760 would use Green Hills Software.
http://www.altsoftware.com/press-ne...gl-graphics-driver-architecture-embedded-syst
- Older dev kit's for the Wii U were basically using the AMD Radeon 4850.
- Nintendo told devs that the 4850 would be roughly equal to the Wii U's final GPU.
But, the 4850 pulls around 130-240 watts, and is 55nm. Features of the 4850 are also dated, and better standards are being used today like DirectX 11, etc.
Back to the E6760,
- The E6760 runs at 35 watts.
- The E6760 has a 40nm size, exactly what Nintendo announced the size would be for the GPU.
- A stock E6760 scores a 5870 in 3D Mark Vantage, which is higher than the HD 4850.
All that said, basic reason should tell us (especially from those top two press releases) that the GPU will end up being based on the E6760, although tweaked for the better, like most stock GPU's are when in a console.
AMD Radeon HD E6760 Specs
http://www.em.avnet.com/en-us/desig...60-Embedded-Discrete-Graphics-Processors.aspx
Zoramon089
Banned
Guys, that email was REAL. I just decided to email AMD on a whim and they sent me the EXACT same thing.
DaSorcerer7
Member
Guys, that email was REAL. I just decided to email AMD on a whim and they sent me the EXACT same thing.
Guys, that email was REAL. I just decided to email AMD on a whim and they sent me the EXACT same thing.
I believe it. Guys, this is good news!
Smiles and Cries
Member
So wait the mystery has been solved by just sending an email to AMD? wtf?
Sorry if this is old, but I'm not sure what it means. Comment from Unity CEO
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Interview-Why-Unity-Engine-Good-Fit-Wii-U-47173.html
"Make it potentially a possibility"? That seems like a yes or no question. What's up with that? Sorry if this has already been answered.
Edit: Wha? AMD dropping bombs or something? This doesn't seem right.
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Interview-Why-Unity-Engine-Good-Fit-Wii-U-47173.html
"Make it potentially a possibility"? That seems like a yes or no question. What's up with that? Sorry if this has already been answered.
Edit: Wha? AMD dropping bombs or something? This doesn't seem right.
Sometimes the biggest answers are in the most boring of places, that place called "why don't we just ask AMD"
Why do you ignore official press releases and look to posts from supposed insiders using phrases like "it seems" instead?
Besides, it looks like we are getting multiple legit response emails from AMD when asked about the GPU, maybe you should try and email them as well?
Twenty7KVN
Member
Yea that seems really iffy to me.
DaSorcerer7
Member
All that speculation ...and we just needed to ask? LoL
Smiles and Cries
Member
unless since price and launch date has been out some NDAs are laxed a bit to provide support or info to media
still questioning this because I find it hard to believe the mystery of the ages has been solved like this
Guys, that email was REAL. I just decided to email AMD on a whim and they sent me the EXACT same thing.
What was your original question that you submitted?
GoldenEye 007
Member
So if true, what does that mean roughly? Obviously specifics can't be gained because of "enhancements," but an idea at least, no?
Smiles and Cries
Member
hoping this does not mean gimped.
Customization would be your answer.
I was one of the people who figured that the e6760 would be the most similar in terms of performance/features of Wii U's GPU, but that the Wii U didn't actually base its GPU off of the e6760, making it a custom e6760. I don't know how to take the emails. I want to believe, but I don't want to be too optimistic, either.
It seems all we needed to do is ask them. One and a half years of speculation..... ONE AND A HALF YEARS!
I'm guessing slightly gimped, but they wouldn't take out DX11 functionality would they? That would be great news
Edit: Let me say though, I'm still riding the skeptic train on these emails. Just seems really odd.
lightchris
Member
Good compared to what?
Compared to Xenos and RSX it should be stronger by a decent amount. Roughly, at least twice as fast and with a more modern feature set.
Compared to my 2 years old mid range graphics card on PC (GTX 460), it is weaker by at least the same amount.
And does anyone have the AMD technical support email?, the email above wouldn't work and I can't find it.
I want to see what they say to me.
Interesting.
e6760 rapes Xenos and RSX, but yes, it is noticeably weaker than a GTX460.
nordique
Member
Interesting post, though is it absolutely confirmed the GPU is on a 40nm process? There were some postulations it may be a 32nm process
unless I missed something
Smiles and Cries
Member
you question about DirectX 11? I've read around here that DirectX 11 = Microsoft so yeah you can't just go and use it on a non-microsoft product but its key features is what the guy seems to be saying you can do