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Project CARS (crowdsourcing) racing sim by Slightly Mad Studios (fully funded 3.75M)

markao

Member
Ugh... some times I just can't figure out if you're doing it on purpose or not...

iRacing has no retail release and requires a membership fee.
What do you think:p

He could have easily used the sales numbers from games SMS worked earlier on, that actually had a (PC) retail sale and very important, had AI to race against, still by far the biggest audience for racing games, but than he would have had to use a number of hundred of thousands (for the GTR/GTL series).

Right now only a very small part of the possible target will receive a full free game (less than 9000), the rest has to still pay a small or larger part of the full price (equal 8000 full sales) and by far the biggest sales (90+ %) are expected on consoles.

The current membership will have an impact on the total sales, but it will not determine success or failure for a Publisher.
 

Three60

Member
Great news :)) I will have to wait new build because b333 is giving me some problems, cocpit displays are not working and there is some weird HUD issues >

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Chech out the honda S2000 display on X4, what up with that, Honda licensing incoming maybe?
 

Three60

Member
Its graphics issue, I swear hehe :)) Look at the right down corner on the Z4 and X4, problem is there also :)

EDIT: HUD issues in b334 also :(
 

Dilly

Banned
Another 30k today, it's almost at 400k this month, quite impressive.

Senior Managers really are pouring the money in, damn.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Its graphics issue, I swear hehe :)) Look at the right down corner on the Z4 and X4, problem is there also :)

EDIT: HUD issues in b334 also :(
Make sure to post on the forum about it with your system specs, if no one else seems to be reporting it, just in case it's a bug they haven't caught.
 

_machine

Member
I would love to hear your thoughts on pCARS investment.
This won't just about the investment and lot's of it is about why and how I came to support the project. Keep in mind that a lot of it is my assumptions and what I remember from the posts by the devs (it's been like 1.5 years since S2U and Ian and Griff appeared on noGrip?), but here we go:

It was pretty much the guys at SMS that got me into simulation racers with the GTR2 demo and later on the GT Legends which I think is still amongst the best sims. Even RBR somewhat counts since Eero created the tyre model for Shifts which later translated into BTM for pCARS and is likely to be used for the AI once it's phased out for player cars. I've put hunders of hours even though I was never really serious about them nor raced online apart from some TT competitions on RBR. Eventually though, I lost interest in them because of the content (Back then I didn't appreciate GT Legend's car and track selection as I did for GTR2 even though the physics felt easily superior) or the gameplay (GTR2's physics weren't really good for "drifting" and didn't feel as realistic as GT Legends or RBR) or just played for too long (I put way too much time into single player in RBR and there wasn't much reward or variety in it).

Cue 2010 and I finally upgraded my pc from something that couldn't really run any games from this gen (Apart from Oblivion, which I poured over 150hrs at less than 20fps) and the cashier at JimmsPC got me NFS Shift as a bonus. I'd read about it a lot and was excited that there was finally something that could challenge Forza and GT on PC so it was the first game I installed and it absolutely blew my mind. Even with a keyboard at first it felt closer to anything I'd driven in real life than the games I'd played before and going from Oblivion at low details to maxed out Shift was absolutely crazy. Off course, the more I played it the more frustrating the physics became and I couldn't drive like I wanted. The same pretty much happened with S2U; I'd just gotten the MOMO and FFB was something new and fun and the low-powered cars felt even better than the first Shift, getting very close to what I felt when driving an actual car. But like before, once you started nearing the limit the physics just fell apart; it was either endless and weirdly slidey understeer or nearly uncontrollable oversteer and generally it was just frustrating at times. So yeah, they were good games for what they were, albeit frustrating, and got me again interested in more serious racing games and motorsports in general. It didn't take me long to realize that the Momo was a piece of crap though and I didn't try other games for very long for that reason. Even going back to the games I loved it didn't feel as good as the non FFB Logitech Formula.

It was refreshing to see Griff and Ian come to NoGrip to discuss and aid the community, but it was made me realise how much better the game could have been. Parts of the physics had been compromised by EA (the late decision to soften the tirewall, which I think made it worse even on pad), the online model (Autolog's fine, but dedicated servers are a must for any serious racing), the actual races (3 lap races with various cars isn't very realistic) and the overall approach. Realism is the way forward, but it doesn't mean the game shouldn't be approachable, polished and robust. For example AC is going with a similar approach, but with quality over content due to the budget and potential reach. I want my game to look good, sound good, have a realistic career, robust multiplayer choices, wide variety of content and importantly feel right. These are things that pCars promises to be and what I believe SMS can achieve better than the competition; for me it has the potential to be the racing game of the forever, or when pCars 2 potentially comes. So it's fair to say I was excited when Ian came up with the idea and later on showed what their renderer can do (the pics are still an example of what a potential photo mode could do) and laid down the general direction for the game.

Back then I wasn't really so interested in the financial aspect of the game; I was willing to put down that 100€ for a senior pack, mostly because I didn't have money to go further. It didn't take long to strike me how much potential the game had and why SMS and guys like Micas took the risk. A game of this caliber developed for 4 platforms with a budget of 3.75 million euros is absolutely bonkers; games with less potential are developed with a budget in tens of millions.

So when Ian mentioned that it was highly likely that they were going to sign a deal with a publisher to fund the development I really wanted to take that risk and support the development, even with the fact that there was going to be a publisher involved in the development. I had 3k in a savings account that wasn't really making me anything so I took the dive and borrowed the money from my parents until the account unlocked. It's a decision that I've not regretted for a second (not yet, that is). I know that there's a chance I'll not a see dime of it back, I know there's chance I get some of it back, I know I could make a little profit and I know I might get some serious money back. It's a decision that I made for what I think are the right reasons and I can take the consequenses if it all goes to hell.

One of the reasons I feel confident in the project is SMS themselves. As you can probably see, I trust them completely, but more importantly they have so much more at stake yet have much more knowledge and experience. Despite making two huge hits for EA they never got that money; they were just paid for the work.

That brings me to another point, the state of the industry. A game like this wouldn't get picked up a publisher because everything is not done by the lowest common denominator even though it still can appeal to them and it doesn't need to have a huge profit margin to fund the publisher itself. WMD is a much more better solution than Kickstarter for games that don't appeal to the big publisher and developers who don't want to compromise the design. That is something worth supporting, especially as a guy who's going to work in the industry.

I'll get back to the financial aspect in the next post, ran out of time write for now.
 

mclaren777

Member
You bring up and interesting point.

€3.75 million was based on one year of development, so does that mean the final budget for this project will probably be closer to €7.5 million?
 

_machine

Member
You bring up and interesting point.

€3.75 million was based on one year of development, so does that mean the final budget for this project will probably be closer to €7.5 million?
Well the budget hasn't been upped and nor have they made any comments that it would need to be so I assume it was just about not having enough money to keep the pace the expected and they had to slow down the content work. Still, I'm not sure if it'll hold for the full development and for the amount of content planned. They did say that all in all they burn through about 300k a month including all their other ventures, but budgetwise pCars is in no problems.

Interestingly, if SMS sells the game on Steam by themselves at 50€ it would take less than 110k copies to break the 3.75 (which doesn't mean I get my money back yet, because SMS still have their 30% cut).
 

paskowitz

Member
Multiplayer's now up for Team Members. I'll try to post my thoughts on the development and financial aspect later on.

First impressions of multiplayer. LOL it is WAY more stable than I expected. I was cringing when I started my first race. I got through the whole thing with no crazy glitches, very little lag, smooth LOD scaling, etc. I think the menu navigation could be a little easier but otherwise I like it. I really hate the Ai so racing against other people really makes this game more playable (with other cars).
 

Blizzard

Banned
First impressions of multiplayer. LOL it is WAY more stable than I expected. I was cringing when I started my first race. I got through the whole thing with no crazy glitches, very little lag, smooth LOD scaling, etc. I think the menu navigation could be a little easier but otherwise I like it. I really hate the Ai so racing against other people really makes this game more playable (with other cars).
Yeah, people were pretty surprised how good the netcode was when multiplayer first came out for the higher levels. They even seem to have a variety of techniques to handle different connections, firewalls, and so forth, so I can make a lobby (which I guess is centrally hosted, I'm not actually sure) and play even with my terrible upload speeds.

There was a lobby crash problem for a while, but I think for the most part the racing has been quite stable if you make it onto the track.

You may occasionally run into people with REALLY bad connections, or people who drive backwards and try to crash you, but hopefully that's the exception for now. One thing I saw they added was the option to force everyone to use the same cars. Hopefully they implement the option soon for each lobby to have a custom description as well.
 

_machine

Member
(which I guess is centrally hosted, I'm not actually sure)
Even though you're the host, the actual dedicated server is SMS's which is why people not from Europe have traditionally a bit more problems. Once they deploy the software for public use you'll be hosting the actual server.
 

Blizzard

Banned
I don't have the link right now, but I think there's a pretty active main CARS Steam group that sometimes has a lot of people in the group chat, if anyone is looking for polite racers.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Oh, one other word of warning to new players. Someone correct me if they changed this, but with the last build I played a week or two ago, cars don't vanish if someone quits midrace. What this means is that if you want to leave a race, MAKE SURE TO PULL OFF THE ROAD, and ideally leave your car parked on the grass facing backwards. That way if someone sees a bunch of backwards cars they can realize oh, everyone must have left, rather than continue racing by themselves.

Chat was recently added ('T' button by default?) which should make communication easier, though.
 

markao

Member
Quite impressed with the netcode I gotta say.


*edit* Think you guys chose a track I don't have access to or something. Got kicked out.

Being kicked out just means, that somewhere the connection between you and the host is lost. Tracks no problems, if for example a Senior is hosting Eifelwald GP, you can join (not host), even though you do not have access to that track in SP.
 

Orgun

Member
Playing with the fastestsector guys last night was such a blast, the only downsides being the lack of a working car reset button and having to recreate the lobby after every race. Minor things that will be fixed eventually.

The lack of a car reset did create some hilarious scnearios where people were stuck upside down and would wait for people to purposely ram into them to flip them over.

Good times.
 

_machine

Member
the only downsides being the lack of a working car reset button and having to recreate the lobby after every race. Minor things that will be fixed eventually.

The lack of a car reset did create some hilarious scnearios where people were stuck upside down and would wait for people to purposely ram into them to flip them over.
It'll hopefully come back soon as a toggleable option; it was removed because people were spawning back on the track and crashing into others and some trolls were using it on prupose.
 

amar212

Member
Interestingly, if SMS sells the game on Steam by themselves at 50€ it would take less than 110k copies to break the 3.75 (which doesn't mean I get my money back yet, because SMS still have their 30% cut).

No way in universe how serious racing game can achieve 110K over Steam.

Even with boxed stand-alone release, Steam release and whatnot, I have hard time believing how PC will boost sales anywhere close to 50-70K in lifetime total. If SMS would theoretically decide to publish pCARS themselves, there would be no money for marketing. And without marketing you are literally nowhere.

Consoles are where the money and sales are. That is the only reason why the publisher is needed. I believe pCARS will find a publisher, because the foundations are gorgeous and potential is enormous. However, we just have to wait to see what will SMS negotiate.

There is so many potential in SMS's creative pools, I fired up Shift 2 yesterday just to evoke their magnificent work on "Original courses" - both track and city - and I really would like to see them all in pCARS in some form (Riviera circuits are present in both Shift games and in Ferrari Racing Legends, so maybe there is hope for some content to migrate). Through past years SMS produced some of the best imaginative-courses ever in the genre and I'd so love to see them all in pCARS. When you look at Shift 2 course list, it is absolutely the best single part of the game. All those assets and imagination should be used in full potential.

Same goes for vehicle models, but that is where publisher has to jump in.
 

_machine

Member
No way in universe how serious racing game can achieve 110K over Steam.
Oh yeah, I didn't mean that I would expect it sell that much, just made a point on how much better the profit margins are on Steam; basically single copy sold through Steam could make almost twice as much money than a retail console copy. I was also wrong about the profit excel document, it already has the retail and a possible publisher cut in it (SMS get around 20€ for each copy) so the 250-300k copies to break even is a pretty realistic expectation even with the publisher taking it's cut from each sold copy.
 
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Bathurst Race - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPe37f6U214
Catalunya Chaos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrRtkzkM_GU
Classic Monza - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXQ7fcx71iI
F1 @ Spa with Poly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49D0kS-olCQ
Flipping Cars @ Monza - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faW86J7DqVI
Karting with Dilly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXcOpNrfi-Y
Grid Chaos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZ5Ooj0yY8
Imola Race - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tNlmBZOIwI
Insane NASCAR Crash - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TimHB_9oGVU
Losing a Wheel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siHQjM9QNP8
Mugello Close Call - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MngQ2ibHGqE
Penguin Flips Me - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoo733fEhw8
Quiche Wipes Out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIPM95X-ebM
Rouen Carpark - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGGA31eacUg
Spa Chaos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWdmuvIOxGE

SO much fun last night. Love MP in this game so much.

Bonus points if you can count all the times you can hear my girlfriend giggling at the crashes in those vids!
 
Are any kind of supports allowed in multiplayer races? I'm not much of a hardcore sim racer myself so i mostly keep traction control checked and automatic gearbox on.
 

_machine

Member
Are any kind of supports allowed in multiplayer races? I'm not much of a hardcore sim racer myself so i mostly keep traction control checked and automatic gearbox on.
All supports are allowed at the moment, but soon the host should be able to force restrictions or allow some supports. I don't think it's going to be a problem for those who use them and race in public races, at least for a while.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Oh yeah, I didn't mean that I would expect it sell that much, just made a point on how much better the profit margins are on Steam; basically single copy sold through Steam could make almost twice as much money than a retail console copy. I was also wrong about the profit excel document, it already has the retail and a possible publisher cut in it (SMS get around 20€ for each copy) so the 250-300k copies to break even is a pretty realistic expectation even with the publisher taking it's cut from each sold copy.
Don't forget that a lot (most?) Steam sales may be at heavy discounts during sales, so it's not a straight full price calculation even if we knew the number of sales. On the bright side, after sales I think games tend to sell more than they did before, even back at the higher price.

Collision detection is hilariously broken. :D
This may be because they were upgrading some collision and midair physics stuff (implemented by software PhysX). Hopefully they're known issues.

Does anyone else race online with the Seta tire model, or are people holding off for when it more fully supports non-Formula-A cars?
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Ever since they switched to new version of PhysX, weird collisions [and weird trembling of the cars, especially FA] became much more noticeable.
 
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