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Project CARS (crowdsourcing) racing sim by Slightly Mad Studios (fully funded 3.75M)
- Thread starter markao
- Start date
It's still on all cars as far as I know, but the FA is the one it's designed for. I don't think they've added new tire compounds or tailoring specific to other cars (correct me if I'm wrong), though it seems like certain cars such as the x4 may be substantially better even using the work in progress STM.
As hilarious as the AI on STM?
If you're considering upgrading, you might want to start thinking about it now. There's less than 400K remaining and the SM's seem to be competing on how bonkers they can go. Some are predicting that the funding could get closed in November, but I still think there's a fair chance that it will go on to January if the November isn't anywhere close to this month's figures and December slows down to a crawl because of SMS's holiday. Thread on WMD regarding people upgrading.
Granted I wouldn't go as far as Micas or Martin, but I think I might add a bit more myself. I really am beating myself over putting that extra 500€ on a saving account that practically won't get me anything. If it all goes to hell and I don't see a dime back I still will have that 2.5K€ to start my studies which is pretty much 2.5K than any of my friends have saved for their studies even though they worked this summer and fall which I did not. I'm still hoping that my toolpacks will get me that new wheel next year
Yeah, I certainly wouldn't do it, but Micas seemed to have somewhat good reasons and I probably should have quoted the whole post. He and Martin are the only ones though.
Metalmurphy
Member
I wouldn't even accept a contribution under those conditions.
I guess if you believe in something enough then....
Having said that, I am happy with my £30 funded and access to the dev copy of the game =0)
Did you read the complete posts? I'll remove the quotes since they don't tell the whole story, but if you're interested, this thread has a lot discussion about the financial aspect and SM's going slightly bonkers
:lol
To be fair, in Micas' case it was more about not having access to that kind of money right now than not owning/making enough money for it. I recommend reading his and Martin's complete posts before making any assumptions. Sorry, I should've linked or quoted the whole posts.
Yeah I just read through the last couple of pages on the thread. I agree that in Micas' case it doesn't look to bad. The guy managed to save 15k since april so taking a 12k load is not the end of the world lol.
It's still incredibly risky for both of them though. We'll see next year how it goes I guess.
TJP
Member
Good luck to the senior managers as it's some serious money being added into pCARS (for the normal person). What I find confusing about the funding arrangement is the 'Terms and Conditions' found on the tool pack purchase page (http://wmdportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/WMD_Terms_And_Conditions.pdf) clearly state pCARS isn't an investment opportunity...
I'm happy to have funded up to the senior level 8) I've seen the projected returns spreadsheet on the WMD forums and I see why some people are getting as much cash into the SMS coffers before the funding close off date.
I'm happy to have funded up to the senior level 8) I've seen the projected returns spreadsheet on the WMD forums and I see why some people are getting as much cash into the SMS coffers before the funding close off date.
TJP
Member
I realise this. I posted my comment because so many people involved in pCARS think about maximising the return on their 'investment' above all else. I find the situtation amusing at times
Just did a quicklap around Lakeville. I'm surprised how developped the track is for a first export! It's clearly still WIP but at least it's not a floating track with no railing in outer space lol.
I'm not super familiar with Infineon, anybody know which layout they did so far? The little amount of experience I have on that track was in ACR and it wasn't the same layout.
Have previous builds also used PhysX? If so I presumably don't have anything to worry about, but seeing PhysX always kind of scares me with an ATI card, plus worrying about potential for PhysX version conflicts between different games.
*fake edit* Doing some searching myself, it seems like the PhysX library has been used before, so I'm guessing they're just using the software implementation, hopefully no worries. The new version of PhysX apparently saves on data/memory size, which is helpful for consoles.
*fake edit* Doing some searching myself, it seems like the PhysX library has been used before, so I'm guessing they're just using the software implementation, hopefully no worries. The new version of PhysX apparently saves on data/memory size, which is helpful for consoles.
More info/discussion here: http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?8811-About-the-quot-Upgrade-to-PhysX-3-quot-thread/page9Andy Garton said:
For those not familiar with "Lakeville Raceway GP" (Infineon/Sonoma? raceway), quick test with the Formula A.
Two laps Formula A at Lakeville Raceville GP (youtube)
[edit]And thanks for the physics link, had a cone flying couple of 100 meters after hitting it with the Formula A, now I need were to post ;0
Two laps Formula A at Lakeville Raceville GP (youtube)
[edit]And thanks for the physics link, had a cone flying couple of 100 meters after hitting it with the Formula A, now I need were to post ;0
Big Takeover
Member
Infineon, nice. It's such a fun circuit for doing laps. Thanks for the video of it, markao.
@ Megasoum It's the full circuit, but the road is there for the other layouts, like the NASCAR one which I think was in ACR.
@ Megasoum It's the full circuit, but the road is there for the other layouts, like the NASCAR one which I think was in ACR.
All this talk of bumping up investments is making me consider dumping a bit of money into it too... Not insane amounts like some of those other guys, but yeah. I have money that's just sitting around not being used for anything and making practically no interest. What are all your thoughts on "investing" in this? I'm always very wary of the too good to be true investments, and with that excel spreadsheet, it seems a little too good to be true.
No reason why it wouldn't. Factoring in it is in alpha state the performance for the visuals being delivered is fantastic. With 8xmsaa, post smaa ultra, 16af plus all eye candy it will bring a 670 down to 40fps during replays with lots o' cars on screen... So you'd want 2 high end cards to push the visuals at a high frame rate.
It's all depending on how many copies the game sells. Treat it like the stock market -- don't spend any money on it unless you would be okay losing 100% of it. That way you're okay no matter which way it goes, and if it goes well, you get the bonus.
Fair enough. Thanks for your thoughts.
Edit: On an unrelated note, it seems alt-tab doesn't crash the game anymore! Glorious.
Senior managers got a build each weekday, if I recall correctly...but since multiplayer came out, SMS is trying to keep people on the same version for now, so most membership levels seem to be getting a new version to try every day or two.
Everything will depend on still unsigned publisher- as McLaren and I agree.
However, once the publisher is signed, I am almost 100% certain how WMD funding will end.
So at this point it is really like investing in stock-markets.
I am still weighing should I upgrade to Manager status, but it is damn lot of money from my perspective to invest at this point, so I will probably not do it.
Of course, once they sign the publisher and game comes out, I will be mad at myself, but I will live with it.
No and I doubt there's going to be any in some time; the wet tracks seem to require some pre-baking with the drying lines and puddles and since the tech isn't anywhere near finalized it would be a waste of time update more tracks for the tech since it's highly likely that the tech and baking process will change rendering the already done work useless.
I have too much time and visit the forums way too often, but imho the easiest way is to just use the Dev Posts function to read all the posts by the devs.
As for the funding, if anyone wants, I can give my side of the things and why I dropped nearly 2K of my own money into the project and what I think will happen.
pappakenoo
Member
Does team members get access to all cars and tracks? Im currently a junior member but feeling i'm missing out on some key content.
Not exatly, seniors and up get all the track and car content, but I believe most of the content is Team Members and up, like the current BMW's, Nordschleife, Country Roads. Nurburgring GP track is one of the senior+ tracks. At the moment it looks like there will be more content that won't be available to juniors so in that case it might be wise to upgrade, but if you want to everything during the development then senior's the one.
Yeah, it is a bit scary when there's no publisher yet. I've never really been one for financial risks. Hah.
pappakenoo
Member
Oh man what is up with their launcher? It refuses to download to anywhere other than C: even though i get to chose where i want it to install... And not only does it need 3,4 GB to download the file, when i finally managed to clear enough space it wanted another 3,4 GB to unpack the fucking file in the same location. After it failed to do so the launcher deleted the file and started downloading it from the start..
Am i allowed to download the client manually like i used to do or am i fucked?
Am i allowed to download the client manually like i used to do or am i fucked?
mclaren777
Member
I'm starting to suspect that SMS is having a hard time finding a publisher because of the WMD investments. I'm guessing most publishers don't like the idea of repaying the $2.5 million that people feel entitled to.
I would love to hear your thoughts on pCARS investment.
Honestly, why would you use that phrasing? People signed up for a project that still has a PDF (www.wmdportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/WMD_Overview_160212.pdf), which on page 30 has a list of projected "FEES RETURNED TO TEAM MEMBERS". People can say okay, I see that, that sounds reasonable, and sign up.
And you suggest they merely "feel entitled", as if they were some random video game players who feel entitled to some set of features, rather than people who purchased toolpacks with a stated set of toolpack rewards, with the understanding that the rewards go with the toolpacks? :/
mclaren777
Member
You're right, that was far too harsh. A better wording would have been: that people are hoping to receive.
I'm not a lawyer so my knowledge of contract law is fairly limited, but I'm not 100% confident that SMS/WMD are legally required to return/refund/payout any of the money that it/they have received. It's not outside the realm of possibility that things could go very poorly for this project, especially if it fails to release on consoles.
I know that I sound very doom and gloom, and I hate it that some of you think I'm nothing but a troll, but pCARS has failed to instill confidence in me from a financial perspective and I'm always surprised when I hear stories about mega-supporters dropping $10k on this project.
I'm half-tempted to share the SMS/WMD documentation with my friend who is a Harvard-educated contract lawyer. I'm curious what he might say.
Edit: I just e-mailed my friend so hopefully we will have a professional opinion soon.
I'll probably post a little wall of text tomorrow, but just wanted to say that I never assumed that SMS are legally bound to give me a dime back, especially if things go awry. That doesn't mean I don't expect something back if it goes as planned. And I still think you're very pessimistic about the game, but not necessarily wrong.
On a slightly unrelated note, it's snowy as hell in here! Sweeping Finnish country roads in winter are pure bliss even with a 100bhp rental frenchie.
EDIT: The Ford Capri seems to be very close the first release, maybe sometime next week?
...and a fun fact: the development budget of GT5 is 21.3 times larger than the estimate of pCARS.
TJP
Member
I never joined WMD thinking about the potential ROI, so I really don't care what happens outside of the game being released sometime in 2013.
I'm a fan of SMS and their stellar work with SimBin as Blimey! Games to create GTR's 1 and 2 plus GT Legends and I enjoyed both Shift games for what they were. When the opportunity arose to help fund CARS development I thought I'd give a few dollars.
I'm a fan of SMS and their stellar work with SimBin as Blimey! Games to create GTR's 1 and 2 plus GT Legends and I enjoyed both Shift games for what they were. When the opportunity arose to help fund CARS development I thought I'd give a few dollars.
What difference does it make for a Publisher if a group of people bought a tool pack, a developer came up with the money themselves, some venture capital firm paid it, or my grandma. The deal for them will be the same, they will do the publishing part and in return they will receive an ..% (industry standard) of each copy sold.
I think the fact that SMS wants to keep the IP and creative rights might be a bigger stumble block. But in the end, it will all come down to the quality of "the game part" and if a Publisher sees a way of selling/marketing it and making some profit while doing that. They don't even have the risk of loosing the money spent on a development budget, others paid for that.
mclaren777
Member
The difference is that roughly 29000 people have already "bought in" to the concept of pCARS. That represents most of the PC audience so any future growth will have to come from the console market, and as publishers turn their focus to next-gen systems, it's unlikely that any of them wants to promote a new IP right at the end of a console cycle.
To support development on next-gen systems, the prospective publisher needs to be financially confident in the project to a much greater degree because next-gen dev units cost significantly more money.
The bottom line is that SMS is in a difficult situation. It wants to retain the IP, fulfill its financial obligation to the current supporters, and a attract a publisher who has deep enough pockets to either market the crap out of a current-gen game or spend big money to acquire next-gen hardware.
I don't envy Ian or the SMS legal department right now.
Metalmurphy
Member
What is the bolded statement based on? End-of-life sales numbers of existing PC race sims?
I mean I spent over $1000 USD on the game and I practically NEVER played racing games, let alone sims.
Also, has there ever been public information about how much previous console dev units (e.g. XBox 360 dev units) cost? It would be interesting to see how much the cost changes between generations.
mclaren777
Member
Yes to the first question. I've heard 30k is typical for a PC sim like rFactor or iRacing. And the PS3 dev kits were $10k in 2005 but Sony dropped it to $2000 in 2009. I'm not sure what it costs now, but I wouldn't be surprised if next-gen dev kits are closer to the first number.
Edit: iRacing had 34k members as of April.
I don't know where you that 29k is from (funding divided by tool pack costs?), but it seems accurate.
Almost 10k of that is Juniors who get a measly 10€ discount which is pretty much the equivalent of a pre-order discount on a digital platform. If all those juniors buy the game it's already a "free" 10k pc sales and say those copies are steam keys sold by SMS at 50€, that would be like 400k€ of revenue.
Another over 10k of that is Team Members who will get the game at around 50% of the price and could be generalized as most will buy the game. Decent revenue with "guaranteed" sales on a minority platform, but in terms of amount of customers still a fraction of the target user base.
I assume there's no need to explain the rest since they're a minority in a minority, have put down more than the cost of their copy, have custom accounts worth more than single tool pack, etc.
I still think that there's no publisher as of yet because there's no need nor want to have one yet. One of the reasons for the project was not have a publisher interfering in the development phase. It's going to be a low risk venture for a publisher with the potential of some major profits so I don't think it's going to be as big of problem you make it to be and if needed SMS will make the necessary sacrifices to get the game on consoles.
Also wanted to point out that since it's subscription based and makes some of it's money via dlc iRacing's not really comparable to pCARS, and rF, AC are a niche compared to the AAA-type of project of pCARS no matter how accurate it's aiming to be. But more on than later on.
And the publisher doesn't need to deal with the WMD members, they chain of money goes like Retail->Publisher->SMS (30% Cut)->Toolpacks, including the 1,5 mil from SMS, no need for the publisher to care about the members except they have a bit over 20K of customers that have basically pre-ordered the game at a high discount.
And a another fun fact: if pCARS follows Shifts in console-to-pc sales, it will sell 540k with 30k sold pc copies.
Good discussion prior to F1 morning.
As we were already pointing out in almost same discussion few pages back, I also think how lack of actual good publisher will hurt pCARS perspective, especially for for consoles, thus hurting the overall project to great extent.
As I said before, publisher is extremely important for the following: possibility to gain licenses for usage of different assets for development team (pure financial strength), ability to financially support console releases (it is not actual cost of development kit, that is dime - true investment lies in paying royalties to platform holders (Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft) for releasing game on their platforms), negotiating post sales-revenue, financing physical-release production, transport, merchandising and distributor-deals and finally, marketing/promotion cost. It is very complex and expensive thing.
As I also said - and I see McLaren acknowledges that - the greatest *problem* for pCARS are in fact - us. WMD itself is probably the main obstacle for negotiating any bigger publisher, because WMD-investments are made in good will by all of us who agreed to give our money in exchange for some benefits and revenue-cut. I am 100% certain how Ian/SMS does not want to compromise that particular part of the deal under no mean (despite there was no actual "contract" among us and them - they asked for money, we gave it to them, simple as that), because it would result with enormous rage of the WMD community (imagine the bad PR) and would undermine any similar venture for them forever. And it is very problematic to negotiate any publisher with pre-requsite of making him accept how he has to accept sharing vast portion of post-sales revenue to other parties before starting to make any money for himself.
Another important issue is independence of SMS. Any theoretical publisher has to grant SMS with full-freedom for pCARS and I can assure you how at this point there are almost no chance to find a cross-platform publisher that will be ready to accept a pitch for hard-core simulation without any objections or intention to force at least some "casualization".
I again have to highlight how without major publisher pCARS will never lift-off on consoles, either this-gen or next-gen (again, Ferrari Racing Legends as example, where Atari couldn't even organize a normal distribution for two platforms on worldwide market). And without console release we can't talk about pCARS being a success nor foundation for future development.
To get back to quote from start, I think how approx. 12 months before ETA the already signed publisher would be more than welcomed, especially with fact how in approx. 6 months the flood of next-gen wave will begun and complete attention of media and public will go in that direction.
I am the first that would like to see pCARS releasing on both this-gen and next-gen console platforms because I am 100% certain that is the only good way to take advantage of the current situation and establish a franchise. Again, I hope how there is some smart publisher outthere that can accept pre-requsite of WMD-existance and is ready to live with it in order to gain long-term profit form pCARS2 and DLC revenues of pCARS.
We have to wait and see.
Metalmurphy
Member
Ugh... some times I just can't figure out if you're doing it on purpose or not...
iRacing has no retail release and requires a membership fee.