stufte
Member
Exactly, and there's nothing that we can do to this earth that can't be reversed given enough time. The only thing we have to harm here in the long-run is human existence.
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Having children seems immoral to me...
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Exactly, and there's nothing that we can do to this earth that can't be reversed given enough time. The only thing we have to harm here in the long-run is human existence.
ImpassionateGods
Member
But what about the people who don't see life as suffering? You're saying it's cruel to not receive the choice to exist or not, but not giving birth because of this reason is taking away that choice. How can you decide if life is worth living, worth being born for, if you are denied the chance to determine this for yourself?
crazy monkey
Banned
MemoryHumanity
Member
ConfusingJazz
Member
Overpopulation is a myth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OwII-dwh-bk
And just for good measure, quit being so damn negative about the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo
And just for good measure, quit being so damn negative about the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo
so...Retrocide
Humans are not some separate alien invading force of the planet, we are an extension of it's ecosystem. We shouldn't disregard the planet, as it's our home, but neither should we act like we've consciously been made to deliver untold evil to all that is around us - that's such a ridiculously myopic view, that only works if you are looking at it in the worst possible way.
Aquamarine
Member
Can't get much more intelligent than that. Good job man.
Every human being, regardless of who he is, goes through some form of pain at some point in his existence. Is it better to never experience pain...than to experience pain?
What the fuck? It's called humanity and it's been around as long as anyone can remember.
Pain is not an objective evil. It's an evolutionary trait developed to highlight when things are bad, and to nudge us in a better direction.
I hate how Buddhists romanticise pain.
Thug Waffle
Member
goldenpp72
Member
Maybe, however even people with the worst lives wish to stay alive for some reason, so I'd have to disagree with it being immoral.
so these beings you are forcing into probable suffering
what alternative do they have?
not living? in that case, are they even beings that you should worry about?
what you're suggesting here (and im just humoring your logic for the sake of discussion) goes way back than the ways in wich youre thinking
there is no alternative to not having children, in terms of life and death, its either life or nothing
so, considering that your argument has no alternative or nothing to compare it to; its irrelevant
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
No you wouldn't, since you do have that option, and you still exist.
Aquamarine
Member
I just don't understand how an atomic bomb contributes to the existence or ecosystem of ANYTHING. It's just so universally chaotic and absolutely destructive... and yet man had the ability to think up and design and blow up innocent people with this weapon.
It certainly feels like we're aliens at times....
So "things being bad" is an objective evil for humans, then?
umop_3pisdn
Member
I don't think that there is any intrinsic meaning to life, but existing is not synonymous with suffering, it would be more accurate to say that it is synonymous with pain, but pain need not result in suffering though our tendency is to not see the separation. In having a being come to be, there isn't a decision being made that they will suffer meaninglessly, only that they will be subject to pain. So it can be framed in a way where respecting the volition of beings respects their ability to determine some of the qualities of their existence.
They don't. The Buddhist interest in pain is to diagnose the human condition. Pain is unavoidable, therefore it is wise to develop the skill of experiencing it in a non-attached way so that we do not cause ourselves further suffering, but this attitude is entirely contrary to asceticism. One does not seek pain, and one is respectful of one's own limitations as adopting an extreme approach to this view will only compound suffering instead of actually being constructive.
They don't. The Buddhist interest in pain is to diagnose the human condition. Pain is unavoidable, therefore it is wise to develop the skill of experiencing it in a non-attached way so that we do not cause ourselves further suffering, but this attitude is entirely contrary to asceticism. One does not seek pain, and one is respectful of one's own limitations as adopting an extreme approach to this view will only compound suffering instead of actually being constructive.
if only fucking a pussy raw and coming inside it didn't feel so good...
but srsly ? I don't want to have to worry about kids, anyones kids especially mines.
The financial and emotional burden is too much to shoulder and the negatives far outweigh the positives.
According to the state of the world today and in the future ?
I myself only own a Laptop, a Smartphone and a Gun and already live a simplistic spartan life where I've noticed my only goals are "FUCK, FOOD, and MONEY".
as I simply pay the bills and rent out a small room monthly
Basically I'm a modern caveman
Kids would only slow me down
but srsly ? I don't want to have to worry about kids, anyones kids especially mines.
The financial and emotional burden is too much to shoulder and the negatives far outweigh the positives.
According to the state of the world today and in the future ?
I myself only own a Laptop, a Smartphone and a Gun and already live a simplistic spartan life where I've noticed my only goals are "FUCK, FOOD, and MONEY".
as I simply pay the bills and rent out a small room monthly
Basically I'm a modern caveman
Kids would only slow me down
stufte
Member
For you perhaps.
By nature, the choice is vested only in potential parents. Beings that don't exist can't have a choice. When you make them exist, they have already lost that choice. And, my premise assumes that pain and fear of death are certain at this point in time, but any joy is is only speculative. By merely bringing them into being, you have rolled the dice on their behalf knowing some pain is certain and any joy they might experience that could outweigh that suffering could never occur leaving them only to suffer. It doesn't seem right to me.
There have to be some philosophy majors here that have dealt with this.
You see those events as terrible losses of life, yet the threat of nuclear war has stopped millions upon millions of people from dying in war since it was introduced. It effectively ended world wars from ever happening again.
Wanting something and willing to do what it takes to make it happen are two very different things.
entremet
Member
What a weird outlook on life. Life is good and bad. Feast and Famine. Dualities will always exists. How old are you, OP? I ask because it's usually, and I mean usually, when you're young that you tend to be sheltered by major tramautic events. Not everyone of course.
But have a bad breakup, a divorce, a parent die, you learn to accept that it is part of life and learn to cope with it instead of withdrawing into a shell. We're all gonna break a few bones.
But have a bad breakup, a divorce, a parent die, you learn to accept that it is part of life and learn to cope with it instead of withdrawing into a shell. We're all gonna break a few bones.
Cotton McKnight
Member
I am with you, I think the OP is way over-thinking this one.
Not a damn thing on this planet exists specifically to 'contribute' to anything in any objective way. We struggle and try to have good lives. That's the story of life as we know it. All the extra stuff is just filler.
There is no objective evil. Objective morality, even if it existed, isn't something anyone could possibly know about, we don't have the capacity. All we can do is say "I -think- X is evil".
JordanLMiller
Member
Well, OP it looks like no one is taking what you're saying very seriously, but I've personally thought about this before too so at least you're not alone in your craziness! I don't know about it being "immoral" or whatever you're saying exactly, but sometimes I feel disappointed about the kind of world I would be bringing a child into. Maybe it's just like a form of EXTREME nostalgia, but I feel like everything is sort of getting worse. People just seem less creative, things are more stressful and everything is so fast paced. Actually maybe I'm just getting old. I guess I'm becoming old man Simpson yelling at a cloud :/
ConfusingJazz
Member
Jesus, we are living in the greatest and longest Golden Age in the history of man, and people are still depressed about it.
Adopting isn't as easy as picking up some apples and going through the self-checkout...
Also, the population in many places is older. Some countries are in borderline crisis because of the incredibly low birth rates. Hell, morality is an entirely human concept. Having kids started off as a biological need to begin with. Having kids is incredibly normal.
entremet
Member
Social isolation is much more pronounced now, however. So people tend not have coping and support systems readily available.
SpartanForce
Member
I agree with the OP. I don't want to have any children in my lifetime because I don't want them to feel the same depression I felt my whole life, since depression is genetic, etc.
stufte
Member
Any pain and fear of death is speculative. Your view on existence is exceedingly grim. Life comes with it's ups and downs. I don't have a choice in many things in my life, including my existence. But that doesn't mean that life isn't worth the gamble. Get some help, this isn't a healthy outlook on life and I have a feeling you're projecting a bit of how you feel about your own life into this conversation.
Jeremy092387
Member
I didn't ask to be born mom! How could you!?!
That is pessimistic way to look at things. : /
That is pessimistic way to look at things. : /
Sorry, 'suffering'. The very concept of ascribing suffering to desire and wanting and all that jazz is just... ugh. I can't handle it. It's just so rote and boring.
But if they don't want that chance, you're forcing them die, which even if it isn't painful in itself, makes most people fearful to think about. The unborn, those who don't exist, are unaffected by a lack of choice because they don't exist.
Ingueferroque
Banned
Uh, so infinite babies are justified?
Secret Fawful
Member
I sometimes feel the same way, if only because I'm so afraid all the time. I didn't ask to be born, and now I'm forced into an existence I'm too terrified to end. So I have to wait...and I don't want it to end. It's so contradictory but I'm afraid and fear isn't logical....or is it. ARGH.
ConfusingJazz
Member
That seems like a real rich man's problem. And by rich, I mean not being a subsistence farmer.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Pain isn't the culprit, pain alone is just unpleasant. How we respond to it (wishing it would go away, etc) is what causes us suffering. The latter can be removed by personal endeavor, and while the former can not, without it the former really isn't much.
discuss besides just stating the obvious...
Having kids is the only true biological reason anyone is even alive, and no one can dispute this.
if I was mega rich, I would father 100 kids tomorrow and push seed into wombs thus quick
but that doesn't mean it's good or bad
shit usually boils down to "it is what it is" Live and die.
The era has just begun. Don't criticize. Take a new approach.
I say this because you are absolutely correct. We are in a new renaissance. Like any new beginning, it is a transition. Be sensitive.
As long as we don't have total financial turmoil (an unfortunate possibility) humankind can evolve into unforeseeable greatness.
I encourage optimism even with though chaos looms overhead.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
OP sounds clinically depressed.
Green Mamba
Member
It doesn't.
But your assertion also makes the fairly broad assumption that everything living thing outside of humans do contribute to the existence or ecosystem of something--which is just patently absurd and suggests you really don't know anything about biology or the evolutionary history of life on this planet.
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