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Ynos Yrros · Feb 18, 2007

Shompola said:
ok ok.. the rumour which more or less is confirmed unoffficially states that the gpu is clocked at 500mhz and the gddr3 at 650mhz. A 10% decrease in gpu clock frequency does not entail a 10% overall decrease. In many if not most it might be negliable performance wise.. Don't worry, it is still faster than the Xbox 360.

:lol

I don't believe that PS3 is faster than 360, both have advantages over one another.
The rumor isn't confirmed by anything, it was made up and eaten up by the internet. Unless I see numbers, or official devs, or official statement made by SCE on that manner, I won't eat it up.

Pistolero · Feb 18, 2007

Mmmkay said:
I'd really like to see a proper translation of that French article, it looks to be a very interesting read. I don't think there's any reason to doubt its authenticity, and the point up for debate seems to be nothing but splitting heirs. When someone says 'real time' to me, I do not take that to mean 'target framerate,' I see it as implying that the rendering engine is outputting at whatever framerate it is currently capable of. Pretty much like the old Heavenly Sword trailer really.

What this article seems to confirm is that the shader effects they are using currently are no longer as complex as the ones featured in the E3 trailer, and that the game runs at 30fps.

It's interesting you refer to this "obscur" article whereas in the famous interview a ND representative stated that all shaders, models...were running in game...

Mmmkay · Feb 18, 2007

Pistolero said:
It's interesting you refer to this "obscur" article whereas in the famous interview a ND representative stated that all shaders, models...were running in game...

...

If you had read what you quoted you would know that I don't think this article says otherwise. The article just says the game wasn't running at 30fps at E3 and now it is.

Also on a different matter, according to the discussion thread (which has a lot more info from the event) on the article, it is the author's own inference that not meeting the shader performance of E3 is the result of a 10% downgrade, not something Balestra said. Personally I think the logic is flawed, as many games see design/technology changes from early demonstrations. That does not give me reason to believe the article is fantasy or has an agenda though.

Versatil · Feb 18, 2007

Ynos Yrros said:
Looks quite fake, and it says that RSX has undergone "downgrade" which it didn't.

No, you're too far. You, and those who don't know how to read french, made a mistake by confusing the expectations of the author. Balestra didn't said ''the RSX is downgraded'', its simply a deduction.

Versatil · Feb 18, 2007

Ynos Yrros said:
:lol

I don't believe that PS3 is faster than 360, both have advantages over one another.
The rumor isn't confirmed by anything, it was made up and eaten up by the internet. Unless I see numbers, or official devs, or official statement made by SCE on that manner, I won't eat it up.

I confirmed. I got a link from Samsung that the frequency is still the same as plan before.

Me_Marcadet · Feb 18, 2007

I'm french and the article seems real.
There is no mention on the downgrade of the GPU btw, just that they are running the engine a 30 fps and 10% lower than the e3 trailer. When they started running the engine on the ps3, it was running at 2 fps

There is no negative news on the ps3 and there is a lot of interesting info on the game and development at ND. Too bad, i'm very poor skilled at english

Yoboman · Feb 18, 2007

Me_Marcadet said:
I'm french and the article seems real.
There is no mention on the downgrade of the GPU btw, just that they are running the engine a 30 fps and 10% lower than the e3 trailer. When they started running the engine on the ps3, it was running at 2 fps

There is no negative news on the ps3 and there is a ton of interesting info on the game and development at ND. Too bad, i'm very poor skilled at english

We'll have GAF citizen firefoxsux show you the ins and outs of the English language

Ynos Yrros · Feb 18, 2007

You, and those who don't know how to read french, made a mistake by confusing the expectations of the author. Balestra didn't said ''the RSX is downgraded'', its simply a deduction.

I'm french and the article seems real.
There is no mention on the downgrade of the GPU btw

So which one is it?

It doesn't seem like an article, and it's not an interview (there are no words being quoted). It just seems that th guy had a talk with dev, and then made a write up. Then we have developer INTERVIEW at IGN, with developer claiming everything was running on PS3 in real time, with animations being scripted, and then we have this guy claiming that he spoke with dev, who claimed that the game was running at 2 fps on PS3 back then.

I take IGN interview over forum post for now.

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

Me_Marcadet said:
I'm french and the article seems real.
There is no mention on the downgrade of the GPU btw, just that they are running the engine a 30 fps and 10% lower than the e3 trailer. When they started running the engine on the ps3, it was running at 2 fps

There is no negative news on the ps3 and there is a lot of interesting info on the game and development at ND. Too bad, i'm very poor skilled at english

Come on Me_marcadet. Just go with it. Tell us everything that is said, because everybody else's translation sucks.

YOU ARE OUR ONLY HOPE!

Blimblim · Feb 18, 2007

Ok guys, here is a translation:
The E3 teaser wasn't realtime apparently, but was using the assets and shaders of the game at that time, but the engine wasn't good enough. Today they have it running at 30 fps, and they are very near the trailer quality, about 90% of it (litteraly says it's missing 10%), because the shaders have been downgraded a bit because they aimed too high at first.

And yes the event was real, Snoopers was there but it was too technical for him.

It also mentions they are using Nvidia's CG, but also some new library that has not been made available to third party devs yet.

Me_Marcadet · Feb 18, 2007

Like I said there is really no mention of the downgrade on ps3 specs.

There is really no negative news on the ps3, it's all positive. I think we can trust the article.
EDIT: blimblim comfirmed it

f@luS · Feb 18, 2007

Im french too and this was really interesting

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

Blimblim said:
Ok guys, here is a translation:
The E3 teaser wasn't realtime apparently, but was using the assets and shaders of the game at that time, but the engine wasn't good enough. Today they have it running at 30 fps, and they are very near the trailer quality, about 90% of it (litteraly says it's missing 10%), because the shaders have been downgraded a bit because they aimed too high at first.

And yes the event was real, Snoopers was there but it was too technical for him.

It also mentions they are using Nvidia's CG, but also some new library that has not been made available to third party devs yet.

Thanks Blim and Mr_M. You guys came through big time. So basically ND has 6 to 9 months to get the game as close to 100% as possible being that it is already running at 30 fps.

Good in my book.

f@luS said:
Im french too and this was really interesting

Hey f@luS what else does it say that Blim hasn't reported?

Ynos Yrros · Feb 18, 2007

Blimblim said:
Ok guys, here is a translation:
The E3 teaser wasn't realtime apparently, but was using the assets and shaders of the game at that time, but the engine wasn't good enough. Today they have it running at 30 fps, and they are very near the trailer quality, about 90% of it, because the shaders have been downgraded a bit because they aimed too high at first.

And yes the event was real, Snoopers was there but it was too technical for him.

IGN: Definitely. Of course, we think that the most important question that a lot of people have right now is "how much of that footage was CG and how much was real-time?"

Wells: The entire trailer was rendered in real-time using our PS3 game engine. All of the models, textures, shaders and effects are in-game.

We have the name, the question, and the answer of a developer here. On the other hand we have a WRITE UP, of something that could have happen (posters discussion with developer), but isn't certain. I seriously doubt that someone from ND would say that they had to downgrade their shaders to someone who doesn't need to know this, and doesn't ask for some major publication, even if it was the case.

Blimblim · Feb 18, 2007

mckmas8808 said:
Hey f@luS what else does it say that Blim hasn't reported?

It says a lot of technical stuff, without going into too much details though.
Like there are 3 2GB partitions on the PS3 HD for temporary file swapping (*not* installation), just like on the old Xbox in fact.
It also say ND are using their own physics engine, but they are not sure yet if it was a good idea to do so or not, because physics are hard.
Lots of streaming, and data redundancy on the bluray disc.

Ynos Yrros said:
We have the name, the question, and the answer of a developer here. On the other hand we have a WRITE UP, of something that could have happen (posters discussion with developer), but isn't certain. I seriously doubt that someone from ND would say that they had to downgrade their shaders to someone who doesn't need to know this, and doesn't ask for some major publication, even if it was the case.

That article is 100% legit. Believe it or not it's your problem, but the author is well known here in France, and the event itself happened for sure.
OMFG, they slightly downgraded the shaders. PS3 is doomed right? WHO THE HELL CARES? They aimed slightly too high, it happens all the time in game development, especially for titles that have been started even before the final specs have been released.

vpance · Feb 18, 2007

I'm impressed they could get to 90% of the trailer. Let's hope the same happens with KZ2.

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

vpance said:
I'm impressed they could get to 90% of the trailer. Let's hope the same happens with KZ2.

If 90% looks like that 3D screenshot then yes lets hope KZ2 can get to 90% of that trailer. :lol

Versatil · Feb 18, 2007

Ynos Yrros said:
So which one is it?

It doesn't seem like an article, and it's not an interview (there are no words being quoted). It just seems that th guy had a talk with dev, and then made a write up. Then we have developer INTERVIEW at IGN, with developer claiming everything was running on PS3 in real time, with animations being scripted, and then we have this guy claiming that he spoke with dev, who claimed that the game was running at 2 fps on PS3 back then.

I take IGN interview over forum post for now.

IGN's interview is a true PR.

Balestra said that the only thing was running on real time on the E3 presentation was only the assets and shaders and i know who to trust between Balestra and a PR.

Grilled by Blim

f@luS · Feb 18, 2007

history of the guy (little)
theyre 60 working on the game , with 14 programmer including (2 lead and 12 classics)
He talks about the debug and beta test.
Sony trust ND so theyre never under some pression , theyre totally free.
THey talk a lot within differents studio ( Santa monica , Insomniac , Sucker punch (? sly raccon) , and guerilla)
He doesnt want to talk about the cost.
They have some exclusives feature in the sdk that sony is trying to give to the 3rd party.
Theyre taking 3 weeks off per year (end) that explain this interview)
The post prod started 2 years ago
Heavy use of the spe
*Hes saying the PS3 hdd is having 3*2go as a temp buffer*
One hour of cinematics

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

f@luS said:
history of the guy (little)
theyre 60 working on the game , with 14 programmer including (2 lead and 12 classics)
He talks about the debug and beta test.
Sony trust ND so theyre never under some pression , theyre totally free.
THey talk a lot within differents studio ( Santa monica , Insomniac , Sucker punch (? sly raccon) , and guerilla)
He doesnt want to talk about the cost.
They have some exclusives feature in the sdk that sony is trying to give to the 3rd party.
Theyre taking 3 weeks off per year (end) that explain this interview)
The post prod started 2 years ago
Heavy use of the spe
*Hes saying the PS3 hdd is having 3*2go as a temp buffer*
One hour of cinematics

BOLDED for happiness.

Me_Marcadet · Feb 18, 2007

All the info I can translate and report :

60 people working on Uncharted, 14 programmers on the same hierarchy and 2 lead programmers, 5/6 designers for the gameplay and the levels structure and the rest are artists.
There are 20 people working on development tool but not specialy on uncharted (maybe another project ?)
Beta tester are very important for Balestra and they work close to the development team.

They outsource the animation ( it seems there is 60 min of CG video but it can be for motion capture, the article isn't very clear about that ) and audio

Sony give sa lot of freedom and the don't interfer with the development. ND have always respected the delay on their games.

They are working on uncharted since more than 2 years with a little team at the beginning.

They communicate and share a lot with another sony studio like Insomniacs (Balestra considers them like first party), sucker punch, Guerrilla games and Santa Monica.

The gameplay is their first prirotity. He says that nowadays, all the studio can do impressive stuff on a technical point but gameplay is a lot harder.
If they have a godd idea, no matter how it is harder to do with the technic, they continue to achieve the idea.

There are other technical stuff on Cell and the streaming technology that I can't report in english.

Blimblim · Feb 18, 2007

mckmas8808 said:
BOLDED for happiness.

I'm sure 3rd party developers are thrilled that they don't have access to the latest development libraries. Happiness!
And people wonder why 1st/2nd party games on PS3 look so much better than 3rd party ones...

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

Blimblim said:
I'm sure 3rd party developers are thrilled that they don't have access to the latest development libraries. Happiness!
And people wonder why 1st/2nd party games on PS3 look so much better than 3rd party ones...

No I'm happy because I read it as Sony will be giving the 3rd parties the lastest libraries very soon. Is this not happening?

ELS-01X · Feb 18, 2007

:lol @ people who were saying it looks better. Massive ownage indeed :lol

Panajev2001a · Feb 18, 2007

Blimblim said:
It says a lot of technical stuff, without going into too much details though.
Like there are 3 2GB partitions on the PS3 HD for temporary file swapping (*not* installation), just like on the old Xbox in fact.
It also say ND are using their own physics engine, but they are not sure yet if it was a good idea to do so or not, because physics are hard.
Lots of streaming, and data redundancy on the bluray disc.

That article is 100% legit. Believe it or not it's your problem, but the author is well known here in France, and the event itself happened for sure.
OMFG, they slightly downgraded the shaders. PS3 is doomed right? WHO THE HELL CARES? They aimed slightly too high, it happens all the time in game development, especially for titles that have been started even before the final specs have been released.

Blim, I think the problem is that the developer said "all real-time, all rendered in game by our PLAYSTATION 3 engine" while it seems that the article implies that it was NOT rendered in real-time by their PLAYSTATION 3 engine not that shaders might or might have not been downgraded.

I suspect that their physics engine is quite good, but Naughty Dog people are perfectionists IMHO and if they feel like they have wasted one clock cycle they probably feel sad

.

Blimblim · Feb 18, 2007

mckmas8808 said:
No I'm happy because I read it as Sony will be giving the 3rd parties the lastest libraries very soon. Is this not happening?

Of course it is happening, in fact I heard new SDKs have been released at the end of January for 3rd party devs. I just don't get why Sony would give these first to their own studios. Even if they are buggy, developers should have the opportunity to code with the latest libs as soon as possible, so they don't base their game (to be released like 6 months later) on older libs and can't upgrade when the new ones are finally released.
It just doesn't make sense.

Panajev2001a said:
Blim, I think the problem is that the developer said "all real-time, all rendered in game by our PLAYSTATION 3 engine" while it seems that the article implies that it was NOT rendered in real-time by their PLAYSTATION 3 engine not that shaders might or might have not been downgraded.

Like said before, I'll take the work of Balestra (french guy btw) over ones of a PR guy any day.

Me_Marcadet · Feb 18, 2007

The article isn't clear. I think that the trailer is running on the engine but at very poor fps.
It was not optimised for the ps3.

Now, after optimisation, they are running the engine on the ps3 a 30 fps and with less shader.

Instigator · Feb 18, 2007

Me_Marcadet said:
All the info I can translate and report :

60 people working on Uncharted, 14 programmers on the same hierarchy and 2 lead programmers, 5/6 designers for the gameplay and the levels structure and the rest are artists.
There are 20 people working on development tool but not specialy on uncharted (maybe another project ?)
Beta tester are very important for Balestra and they work close to the development team.

They outsource the animation ( it seems there is 60 min of CG video but it can be for motion capture, the article isn't very clear about that ) and audio

Sony give sa lot of freedom and the don't interfer with the development. ND have always respected the delay on their games.

They are working on uncharted since more than 2 years with a little team at the beginning.

They communicate and share a lot with another sony studio like Insomniacs (Balestra considers them like first party), sucker punch, Guerrilla games and Santa Monica.

The gameplay is their first prirotity. He says that nowadays, all the studio can do impressive stuff on a technical point but gameplay is a lot harder.
If they have a godd idea, no matter how it is harder to do with the technic, they continue to achieve the idea.

There are other technical stuff on Cell and the streaming technology that I can't report in english.

More importantly, ND meets deadlines rather than delay. If something is not ready then it is cut. Some examples were given with bosses in Jak & Daxter.

So basically, if ND has already commited itself to a deadline (internally) with Uncharted, they will ship it by cutting some of the rough parts.

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

Blimblim said:
Of course it is happening, in fact I heard new SDKs have been released at the end of January for 3rd party devs. I just don't get why Sony would give these first to their own studios. Even if they are buggy, developers should have the opportunity to code with the latest libs as soon as possible, so they don't base their game (to be released like 6 months later) on older libs and can't upgrade when the new ones are finally released.
It just doesn't make sense..

Oh I agree with you. I want to buy GRAW2 to freaking bad. But reading that they are having problems makes me a sad panda.

Do you think or have you heard from those guys stating that the new SDK is helping them out now? I just want GRAW2 as soon as possible.

Me_Marcadet · Feb 18, 2007

another thing on the SPE, like Studio liverpool, naughty dog uses the spe for pre-processing in order to optimize the GPU.

Forsete · Feb 18, 2007

Me_Marcadet said:
All the info I can translate and report :

60 people working on Uncharted, 14 programmers on the same hierarchy and 2 lead programmers, 5/6 designers for the gameplay and the levels structure and the rest are artists.
There are 20 people working on development tool but not specialy on uncharted (maybe another project ?)
Beta tester are very important for Balestra and they work close to the development team.

They outsource the animation ( it seems there is 60 min of CG video but it can be for motion capture, the article isn't very clear about that ) and audio

Sony give sa lot of freedom and the don't interfer with the development. ND have always respected the delay on their games.

They are working on uncharted since more than 2 years with a little team at the beginning.

They communicate and share a lot with another sony studio like Insomniacs (Balestra considers them like first party), sucker punch, Guerrilla games and Santa Monica.

The gameplay is their first prirotity. He says that nowadays, all the studio can do impressive stuff on a technical point but gameplay is a lot harder.
If they have a godd idea, no matter how it is harder to do with the technic, they continue to achieve the idea.

There are other technical stuff on Cell and the streaming technology that I can't report in english.

Thanks.

Good info. I want to see this game in motion, NOW!

Blimblim · Feb 18, 2007

mckmas8808 said:
Oh I agree with you. I want to buy GRAW2 to freaking bad. But reading that they are having problems makes me a sad panda.

Do you think or have you heard from those guys stating that the new SDK is helping them out now? I just want GRAW2 as soon as possible.

Sorry, I don't know the current state of the PS3 version. It was in a very bad shape a few weeks ago, but lots of stuff could have changed since then.

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

Blimblim said:
Sorry, I don't know the current state of the PS3 version. It was in a very bad shape a few weeks ago, but lots of stuff could have changed since then.

Bad shape like, "Oh it will be released this year but with some slowdown" or "Holy crap I'm not sure if this game will come out this year"?

luca_29_bg · Feb 18, 2007

but naughty dogs aim for release of this game to cover 100% of the trailer or is not technically possible ?

Pistolero · Feb 18, 2007

It's shipping later in the year apparently so I think that the game will vastly improve by then. Have faith !

Wollan · Feb 18, 2007

Also, have anyone considered the idea that this could potentially be 1080p as well? If thats the case then Wow.

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

Wollan said:
Also, have anyone considered the idea that this could potentially be 1080p as well? If thats the case then Wow.

NO, because it's not possible. Well I should say it ain't gonna happen. 1080p is NOT happening.

Wollan · Feb 18, 2007

L.A.I.R is 1080p with all the insanity running so I wouldn't totally rule it out. In any case, this is insanely beautiful so I doubt it.

Karma Kramer · Feb 18, 2007

Wollan said:
Also, have anyone considered the idea that this could potentially be 1080p as well? If thats the case then Wow.

key word

Forsete · Feb 18, 2007

Wollan said:
Also, have anyone considered the idea that this could potentially be 1080p as well? If thats the case then Wow.

Hmm.. No, not with graphics like these. Very, very detailed environments, LAIR is empty in comparison.

Versatil · Feb 18, 2007

ELS-01X said:
:lol @ people who were saying it looks better. Massive ownage indeed :lol

How you don't understand...

Panajev2001a >>>

Blim, I think the problem is that the developer said "all real-time, all rendered in game by our PLAYSTATION 3 engine" while it seems that the article implies that it was NOT rendered in real-time by their PLAYSTATION 3 engine not that shaders might or might have not been downgraded.

Yeah we know the interview was some PR. It's true and false because the only thing in real time was the assets and the shaders. Now,, we know that the game is approximatively 10% above the trailer.

luca_29 >>>

The game is still on development and of course will be more detailled than the trailer. I expect Uncharted for late 2008, Naughty Dog has time.

Wollan · Feb 18, 2007

Them sharing tech with Guerilla is really, really promising. I can only imagine the end result. Artistically Killzone was extremly well done.

Versatil said:
The game is still on development and of course will be more detailled than the trailer. I expect Uncharted for late 2008, Naughty Dog has time.

The game is practically confirmed 2007.

ELS-01X · Feb 18, 2007

Wollan said:
L.A.I.R is 1080p with all the insanity running so I wouldn't totally rule it out. In any case, this is insanely beautiful so I doubt it.

ND is no Factor 5

Forsete said:
Hmm.. No, not with graphics like these. Very, very detailed environments, LAIR is empty in comparison.

Small environments vs gigantic ones. LOL.

Versatil · Feb 18, 2007

Pistolero said:
It's shipping later in the year apparently so I think that the game will vastly improve by then. Have faith !

Impossible. Everyboy hopes so, but the fact is that Naughty Dog has too much work (from Balestra). It will be late 2008 game.

J-Rzez · Feb 18, 2007

Blimblim said:
I'm sure 3rd party developers are thrilled that they don't have access to the latest development libraries. Happiness!
And people wonder why 1st/2nd party games on PS3 look so much better than 3rd party ones...

Um, 3rd party titles look great, when they're exclusives like DMC4 and MGS4 so far from what we've seen... so yeah... What you're talking about are ports... And Beth didn't have access to those libraries since you said they released end of Jan... And their title exceeded expectations... Why? Because they actually took into consideration how the PS3 arch works... Yeah, it's a year later, but from what articles stated, they weren't working on the PS3 version while they were doing the PC/360 one, they picked it up later in development... Even if the 360 receives similar upgrades, and the PS3 version isn't superior, then at least it's a respectable port...

So there's only one way to point the finger here, and it's not at bad-bad Sony hiding super-secret libraries from the good-good 3rd party devs... It's the devs, no reason to stick up for them with sloppy ports...

Forsete · Feb 18, 2007

ELS-01X said:
Small environments vs gigantic ones. LOL.

Oh dont play retarded. I said detail.

mckmas8808 · Feb 18, 2007

Versatil said:
will be more detailled than the trailer. I expect Uncharted for late 2008, Naughty Dog has time.

No you don't understand. The game is coming out this fall. Like 2007.

Wollan · Feb 18, 2007

ELS-01X said:
ND is no Factor 5

Factor 5 did amazing work on the Gamecube. Let's see how they measure up to ND who have already had a generation working on highly taxing hardware (with amazing results). Factor 5 have been talking a lot about the technical aspect for L.A.I.R while ND hasn't had the opportunity yet so let's see how that turns out (my money is on ND).

Versatil · Feb 18, 2007

How you don't understand...

Panajev2001a >>>

Yeah we know the interview was some PR. It's true and false because the only thing in real time was the assets and the shaders. Now,, we know that the game is approximatively 10% under the trailer.

luca_29 >>>

The game is still on development and of course will be more detailled than the trailer. I expect Uncharted for late 2008, Naughty Dog has time.

Luckyman · Feb 18, 2007

Wollan said:
L.A.I.R is 1080p with all the insanity running so I wouldn't totally rule it out. In any case, this is insanely beautiful so I doubt it.

Factor 5 hasn't even proved that they can achieve smooth framerate at 1080p. Lair has all kinds of problems graphically..

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