Long but brilliant, insightful read.
http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167
On rape jokes:
http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167
On rape jokes:
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Patton Oswalt: A CLOSED LETTER TO MYSELF ABOUT THIEVERY, HECKLING AND RAPE JOKES
- Thread starter anaron
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Devolution
Member
Patton seems like a cool dude.
Right? Plus he's Ratatouille!
Murder. She Wrote
Member
A very intelligent man, I have a lot of respect for him.
Future Foundation
Member
Fucking Constable Bob does it again, excellent read.
Secret Fawful
Member
Very, very interesting, and a good response to the question I had in my other topic.
Devolution
Member
To highlight something, the feminist circles I've been in definitely agree with the "kicking upwards" sentiment not censorship. I think that should be the push and would make the artists a bit more open to suggestion. Subversive comedy should really be questioning conventions like Carlin constantly did not reinforcing the status quo.
Definitely. It's so damn lazy which just reinforces the offensiveness of it all.
ElectricBlue187
Member
I read the whole thing and concur with all of it
Oh man, I bet he's real broken up about that.
Holy shit. Amazing, as always.
faceless007
Member
It's so nice to read a legitimately thoughtful, incisive, nuanced essay for once. This is an excellent rebuttal to anyone who sputters a platitude like "Comedians should be free to make fun of everything and everyone." It's not that that statement is inherently wrong, it's that it's just a lazy crutch and too simplistic a way to think about comedy without acknowledging the way comedy interacts in the world.
I wasn't aware of him having to deal with all these joke thieves, is there any more background on that?
I wasn't aware of him having to deal with all these joke thieves, is there any more background on that?
XANDER CAGE
Member
This is pretty spot-on, which is a turnaround from what Oswalt seemed to be saying last year during Tosh's moment of public scrutiny. He was on the "waaaah, censorship" train then, and it's awesome to see him change his tune.
Nobody wants to censor anyone, we just shouldn't accept jokes that simply exist to make punchlines out of rape victims.
By the way, I still think The Onion had the best response to that whole event.
Nobody wants to censor anyone, we just shouldn't accept jokes that simply exist to make punchlines out of rape victims.
By the way, I still think The Onion had the best response to that whole event.
Messofanego
Banned
Holy crap, that was good.
All the stuff in the rest of Oswalt's blog about thieving is pretty good, too.
Him saying he's passionate about defending comedy by having the conversation about rape jokes, reminds me of what the gaming industry was going through and still is after recent school shootings over the level of violence in video games. These people don't want to trivialise the medium they're in by saying "it's just..." to sweep the issue under the rug. There are things that can be improved and rationally argued over, instead of turtling with defensive reactions.
I like Patton, but he got destroyed on this subject when he was on the Opie and Anthony show. Jim Norton pretty much regulated. Jim literally named over 50 people trying to censor commedians and or going after their jobs for jokes. He then talked about personal stuff he has gotten into involving jokes, and so on and so forth. He also named various comedians who stopped being booked, and are very funny guys, after some crazy person from the audience got offended.
In the comic community, Oswalts opinion on this is not widely accepted. At least in terms of the "nobody is saying don't make the joke". Argument.
In the comic community, Oswalts opinion on this is not widely accepted. At least in terms of the "nobody is saying don't make the joke". Argument.
ElectricBlue187
Member
The tosh thing was just a clusterfuck of a lot of different issues all happening at once, it was not a good situation to bring any sort of understanding for either side of the argument
Gamecocks625
Member
Still weird that he called out the guy here in Columbia, SC.
I agree with a fair amount of what he says, but I don't find very useful his limiting of 'acceptable' rape jokes to those that make anyone other than the victim the punchline.
Victims of crime should - sometimes - be the butt of jokes. And I've never seen a good explanation as to why we should distinguish between rape victims and victims of various other terrible crimes (torture, murder, and so on).
Unacceptable rape jokes are those that perpetuate the so-called 'rape culture' - in particular, the idea that the victims are somehow to blame. It's not as precise a limitation, but it is certainly a lot narrower.
Victims of crime should - sometimes - be the butt of jokes. And I've never seen a good explanation as to why we should distinguish between rape victims and victims of various other terrible crimes (torture, murder, and so on).
Unacceptable rape jokes are those that perpetuate the so-called 'rape culture' - in particular, the idea that the victims are somehow to blame. It's not as precise a limitation, but it is certainly a lot narrower.
dead souls
Member
I'm glad he finally came around on the rape culture issue. I was starting to dislike him for a while there around the time of the Tosh incident.
To a large degree, I'd agree that we should consider what's in good taste when making comedy out of topics of victims.
Can it be done in a way that makes this shit funny? Yeah surely it can be.
Can it be done in a mean spirited ignorant manner? I'm almost certain that it's far easier to do that.
And if you do it in a mean spirited ignorant manner - you should be called out on it as a mean spirited ignorant fuckwit that you most likely are!
And if you're not, you should probably hone your craft before attempting more controversial subjects that have the tendency to piss people off if handled wrongly.
Unfortunately, the messaging of this debate has been thrown off. It's about whether or not we should have rape jokes, instead of the more salient - if you're going to joke about a sensitive topic, you better make sure it's funny and not just stupid, ignorant, insensitive bullshit.
In essence - good rape jokes aren't about piling on the victims - they're about reframing and reconsidering the cultural artifacts surrounding the idea of rape. Even the ones that on the surface level seem as though they're piling on, when uttered in the right manner in the appropriate context (with the right sort of setup) are about reframing and reconsidering.
Can it be done in a way that makes this shit funny? Yeah surely it can be.
Can it be done in a mean spirited ignorant manner? I'm almost certain that it's far easier to do that.
And if you do it in a mean spirited ignorant manner - you should be called out on it as a mean spirited ignorant fuckwit that you most likely are!
And if you're not, you should probably hone your craft before attempting more controversial subjects that have the tendency to piss people off if handled wrongly.
Unfortunately, the messaging of this debate has been thrown off. It's about whether or not we should have rape jokes, instead of the more salient - if you're going to joke about a sensitive topic, you better make sure it's funny and not just stupid, ignorant, insensitive bullshit.
In essence - good rape jokes aren't about piling on the victims - they're about reframing and reconsidering the cultural artifacts surrounding the idea of rape. Even the ones that on the surface level seem as though they're piling on, when uttered in the right manner in the appropriate context (with the right sort of setup) are about reframing and reconsidering.
ExpressGalaxy
Member
Since I didn't expect to read a 5000 word essay right before I went to bed, I'm a little off my game and possibly not understanding this as clearly as I would after a good nights sleep. So, just to clarify his closing statement on rape jokes, is this summation correct?
He thought all rape jokes were, like everything else, fair game in the comedic world. He recently realized that those who were arguing against them, weren't arguing for the censorship or removal of rape jokes altogether, but rather that the joke not be aimed at a(the) victim. He realizes this is a fair stance and one that he is willing to change his mind on.
Sorry for dumbing it down, but after a long day and now a long read, I can't tell if he's gone from "jokes can be about anything" to "jokes can be about anything but rape" or "jokes can be about anything but rape victims"
He thought all rape jokes were, like everything else, fair game in the comedic world. He recently realized that those who were arguing against them, weren't arguing for the censorship or removal of rape jokes altogether, but rather that the joke not be aimed at a(the) victim. He realizes this is a fair stance and one that he is willing to change his mind on.
Sorry for dumbing it down, but after a long day and now a long read, I can't tell if he's gone from "jokes can be about anything" to "jokes can be about anything but rape" or "jokes can be about anything but rape victims"
ComputerMKII
Banned
As the late Pierre Desproges said, "You can laugh about anything, just not with everyone."
minor effort
Banned
This was a good reminder of why I really like Patton Oswalt and respect him as a comedian.
patton and louis ck are my fav comedians right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBhNkywMJY
patton's star wars filibuster is incredible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBhNkywMJY
patton's star wars filibuster is incredible.
Interesting read. I thought the first section was the best, really good stuff on the theft of material. My wife worked at the Comedy Store in LA for years, knew all the comedians, their routines, etc, would be backstage with them all, and theft was always a big thing. Constantly being talked about, discussed, accused of happening, etc. And when a thieving comedian got a break it would result in some rather vicious talk, and a whole lot of revealing of secrets. Patton's assessment of it seems to be the most level-headed (but certainly not the most common) and the whole read for that section was fascinating.
The heckling bit was pretty straight forward. I think the key point there is when he says heckling stops the show from being a show. People don't realize that what they're watching is no less scripted than going to a play, yet I doubt many performances of Death of a Salesman get interrupted by some dick audience member.
On the final section, I can't say I agree with him. Going back to what Tosh said, it was funny, and a fitting reaction to that heckler. For those of you who don't know what happened, Tosh was talking about how there's no subject that should be off limits in comedy...to paraphrase:
Tosh: Bear maulings can be funny. They're terrible, but they can be funny.
Audience member: Bear maulings are NEVER funny, and you're a terrible person for saying that!
Tosh: It'd be funny if five bears suddenly mauled you right now!
And it would have been. There would have been a dark ironic humor in the absurdity of five bears showing up right then and mauling her just as she was exclaiming her outrage against bear maulings and interrupting Tosh's joke on the subject.
Patton's new take of 'well, we should make sure the victim and punchline are not the same person' seems off. In the above case, the woman would be both the victim and the punchline. Granted, there are jokes that are hurtful and inappropriate, but that is due to their structure, not their topic.
There are jokes about the holocaust and 9/11 and slavery and kidnapping and the most horrific things in this world. And they can be wildly inappropriate and funny and terrible at the same time. There's decades of humor to prove this. No topic should be put on a pedestal as untouchable, which is what Tosh was saying. And, at the time, Patton said it as well, and was right for doing so. For him to now say "well, Tosh was wrong for saying what he did" is to say that yes, certain topics should not be made light of. It's disappointing to hear him say this, but I can understand how he was led to this point.
So, yeah, don't agree with everything, but overall, very interesting read.
The heckling bit was pretty straight forward. I think the key point there is when he says heckling stops the show from being a show. People don't realize that what they're watching is no less scripted than going to a play, yet I doubt many performances of Death of a Salesman get interrupted by some dick audience member.
On the final section, I can't say I agree with him. Going back to what Tosh said, it was funny, and a fitting reaction to that heckler. For those of you who don't know what happened, Tosh was talking about how there's no subject that should be off limits in comedy...to paraphrase:
Tosh: Bear maulings can be funny. They're terrible, but they can be funny.
Audience member: Bear maulings are NEVER funny, and you're a terrible person for saying that!
Tosh: It'd be funny if five bears suddenly mauled you right now!
And it would have been. There would have been a dark ironic humor in the absurdity of five bears showing up right then and mauling her just as she was exclaiming her outrage against bear maulings and interrupting Tosh's joke on the subject.
Patton's new take of 'well, we should make sure the victim and punchline are not the same person' seems off. In the above case, the woman would be both the victim and the punchline. Granted, there are jokes that are hurtful and inappropriate, but that is due to their structure, not their topic.
There are jokes about the holocaust and 9/11 and slavery and kidnapping and the most horrific things in this world. And they can be wildly inappropriate and funny and terrible at the same time. There's decades of humor to prove this. No topic should be put on a pedestal as untouchable, which is what Tosh was saying. And, at the time, Patton said it as well, and was right for doing so. For him to now say "well, Tosh was wrong for saying what he did" is to say that yes, certain topics should not be made light of. It's disappointing to hear him say this, but I can understand how he was led to this point.
So, yeah, don't agree with everything, but overall, very interesting read.
If he's that worried about losing Twitter followers, I'm sure he is.
Monocle
Member
I read the whole letter a couple of days ago. Very on point. I thought Patton made a persuasive case against each of the topics he addressed. And good on him not only for being capable of changing his mind, but for admitting that he was wrong about rape jokes even though it meant taking back his earlier public comments.
That video is incredible.
Wow, ruthless.
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