FallenGrace
Member
You can always wait until your next payday before backing this
It ends a week or so after October so you have time.
Ha ha. Good point. I'm so used to thinking in Kickstarter terms that somehow never occurred to me -_-;
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[Eurogamer] Skullgirls dev explains development costs and publisher role in crowdfund
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Ha ha. Good point. I'm so used to thinking in Kickstarter terms that somehow never occurred to me -_-;
Yeah, but it kinda moved away from that (for the better IMO) which I guess would turn off some of the MLP fanbase,
It's also more of a real fighting game than just a vehicle for fanservice.
The Yo Tornado
Member
I'm actually curious if that's a genuine problem for Indiegogo. For a Kickstarter you can pledge whenever and be reminded to make sure you have the money prior to the campaign ending, whereas for an Indiegogo campaign you might tell yourself to make a mental note to pledge when you have the money in X days and then end up forgetting about it.
More_Badass
Member
What about KS's like Catacomb Kids, See No Evil, SupetHOT, Cavern Kings, Four Sided Fantasy, Rimworld, Olympia Rising, Witchmarsh, That Which Sleeps, and Elsinore?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I'd have to check them all and I'm not near a computer right now but the most prominent of those is SuperHOT who:
1) worked on their game for months, on their own, before launching the KS. Subsidy, because different teams have different capacities to work for free for different periods of time. To some extent it's unavoidable as even time available to work on the KS campaign is a subsidy. It takes a lot of money to build a good campaign from scratch and oversee it during the campaign period. Very very few campaigns include these costs in the budget, instead thinking of them as sunk costs. Which is fair because you need to pay those costs whether you get funded or not.
2) after KSing, got a publishing deal which allowed them to work on the game for much longer and make it much bigger. The publishing deal seems at least as large as the KS. That's not a subsidy at the time of the KS, but it has the distortionary effect of making future projects look inefficient if they promise a smaller scope than SuperHOT delivered.
So again, my story here is that the difference between subsidies between projects is one of degree. Comparative advantage. Some people are better at being able to do this than others. When an indie keeps their costs down by living in Mom's basement, that's a comparative advantage. I can't do that because I need to pay rent and pay for my car and make sure my wife can eat and I live in an expensive city and my day job takes enough time that I can't do it at night. That's not me complaining, I just admit if I launched a KS with a great idea, no assets, and some text saying "Trust me, this is going to rock, but I didn't want to distort my budget by subsidizing this first phase of development"... I think no one would fund me.
I thought this complaint was wrong in the semi-famous Polygon op-ed of a few months ago and I think it's wrong here. And in this case the context is a game being made at a minimum 60% discount on sticker price complaining that excessive discounting is ruining consumer value perception.
Note that all of this is based on accepting the argument that consumers care more about overall budget than their contribution costs or the game concept, which I think is not a tested argument at all. My sense would be that given that people find good ideas with wildly unrealistic budgets (here I don't mean publisher distortions, I primarily mean mid-range stuff that plans to support 8-10 employees for a year on 100k), most pledgers are pretty much checked out of the overall number except insofar as they increase pledges to help hit stretch goals. I think people are motivated by ease of discovery, concept and early execution, and cost of pledging primarily. To the extent that people complain about overall budgets I think they're primarily a
small loud forum minority.
But again even if we think budget is a driver, I'm not sure I buy that this is unfair.
Actually, I think it's pretty obvious, it's the size and scale. The majority of the games here are in the tens of thousands range, with 4 in the 100k+, but still much less than 500k. And that's the pledged amount, not the target amount, which could be even smaller. I think you really need a recognized name attached to your project if you want more than half million.
I love SG and the animation work L0 does is phenomenal in today's market. I'm not backing this on IndieGoGo. I don't have a paypal and I'm not signing up for one just for this.
I don't want to set up a separate bank account tied to my paypal to protect myself from fraud (not here just in general). There's just too much inertia to backing on this platform for me. If like, Kickstarter, they were tied to multiple avenues of payment and the process was smooth (ie: going through Amazon).
I've backed several games on KS, the only ones I'm still waiting for are Harmonix's Amplitude, Igarashi's Bloodstained, and Zeboyd's Cosmic Star Heroine.
I didn't back Squiggly for the same reason but I did buy a bunch of DLC to fill out the roster.
I'm probably not the only one in this spot.
So the reasons this campaign is struggling are many:
- People burned by crowdfunding Inafune style
- People who can't contribute "right now" who would otherwise be able to budget and pledge, this money may still arrive when "right now" is a good time for the backer
- No "nostalgia" drive other big budget campaigns had. Even Cosmic Star Heroine evoked Chrono Trigger in its pitch.
- People don't want to back via IndieGoGo for any number of reasons
---No paypal and no interesting in making one
---IndieGoGo's general feeling of sketchiness (website, funding model, lack of awareness)
Would the lost money and delay of funds from Kickstarter backers be more than the 10% Kickstarter takes off the top? I don't know, but you can throw my money into that pile.
I appreciate the honesty in explaining what it's going to take to make this game a reality, the proof-of-concept looks great, I hope it gets made. When it's done I'll be right there buying a copy.
I don't want to set up a separate bank account tied to my paypal to protect myself from fraud (not here just in general). There's just too much inertia to backing on this platform for me. If like, Kickstarter, they were tied to multiple avenues of payment and the process was smooth (ie: going through Amazon).
I've backed several games on KS, the only ones I'm still waiting for are Harmonix's Amplitude, Igarashi's Bloodstained, and Zeboyd's Cosmic Star Heroine.
I didn't back Squiggly for the same reason but I did buy a bunch of DLC to fill out the roster.
I'm probably not the only one in this spot.
So the reasons this campaign is struggling are many:
- People burned by crowdfunding Inafune style
- People who can't contribute "right now" who would otherwise be able to budget and pledge, this money may still arrive when "right now" is a good time for the backer
- No "nostalgia" drive other big budget campaigns had. Even Cosmic Star Heroine evoked Chrono Trigger in its pitch.
- People don't want to back via IndieGoGo for any number of reasons
---No paypal and no interesting in making one
---IndieGoGo's general feeling of sketchiness (website, funding model, lack of awareness)
Would the lost money and delay of funds from Kickstarter backers be more than the 10% Kickstarter takes off the top? I don't know, but you can throw my money into that pile.
I appreciate the honesty in explaining what it's going to take to make this game a reality, the proof-of-concept looks great, I hope it gets made. When it's done I'll be right there buying a copy.
I backed this without making an IndieGoGo account nor a paypal account. You just pay with your debit or credit card if you don't have a paypal.
So everyone here saying you an email and paypal to back is wrong? If so someone update the OP.
This. Literally all I had to do was type in my email and pay.
IndieGoGo does ask for an email, so the campaign you're backing can send you updates and stuff, but you can easily give them a fake one if you feel uncomfortable giving your email. 'Course, I'd imagine that'd complicate things once time to dole out the backer rewards come around.
Paypal just handles the transaction as a middleman.
They really did, it was hands down one of the most professionally run funding campaigns I've seen or backed. I still think they will hit their goal and I think near the end it'll get a huge surge.I don't know why people complain about indiegogo I mean the nice thing about indiegogo is that they let you use paypal. Look at campaigns like Shenmue and the huge number of people complaining and asking for paypal to the point where they waited so long after it ended to do a paypal funding campaign and they lost out on so much after the hype died down. The issue is with people not understanding how indiegogo works and people unsure about how funds are collected which is why I think quite a few are waiting till near the end.
Pejo
Member
Yea this is a pretty big differentiator. I backed Shenmue 3 and Bloodstained, as my only two gaming kickstarters ever. It had nothing to do with the platform, I had only used IndieGoGo up until that point. I just had warm memories of the types of games that they were trying to make, and desperately wanted a new one in each case.
I loved Skullgirls, but this is a different genre with only a prototype, that I wasn't impressed by. I personally think the whole campaign has come off a little condescending. It's been very much the attitude of "Here's a game you should want, why aren't you giving us money?" and then making excuses about IGG this, and misconceptions about funding that. Maybe there just aren't a lot of people feeling it.
Father_Brain
Banned
I really do believe that this is a case where Occam's Razor applies: there just isn't $1.5 million worth of interest out there in this particular game from this particular studio, especially at a $30 price point.
Harsh, but that's life.
(Not a backer, but I did really enjoy the prototype, so I honestly hope you guys prove me wrong).
It is more than Bloodstained or Shenmue offered, or even most crowdfunding projects offer.
"only a prototype" is being a bit dismissive.
SpaceCadetKeon
Banned
First of all, it started off as an MLP fangame, but got cease-and-desisted by Hasbro, leading to them form a new IP. Sadly a lot of Bronies stopped caring when ponies were out of the picture though.
Second, the goal was 436,000. It is currently sitting at almost 528,000, with 14 hours left of the campaign. Was it slow? Sure I guess. Did it struggle? Not really, no.
Pejo
Member
Context is important. I didn't mean that the prototype was lacking, I meant that they had no pedigree to fall back on like Bloodstained/Shenmue did, which was the point of my original quote.
I can see where you're coming from. To be fair, the only reason they keep addressing their reason for going IGG is because people keep asking them about it. In all sorts of places: from twitter, to the comments in Kotaku article on the campaign, to forums like gaf or /v/. Mike Z only made that rant video about misconceptions because it's something they keep on seeing all over the place. Once you put yourself in Lab Zero's position, you can see why those are things they feel the need to keep talking about.
To people who just say they straight up don't like the prototype the only response I've seen has been, "What didn't you like about it?" and that's all. They're frustrated by the people who say they are into the idea and the prototype, but don't want to back because IGG this or publisher that.
Gamesadict
Member
You could call it Brony-Fanservice-The-Game if it was still based on MLP. It hasn't for over 2 years now since it got a C&D, and a lot of people on MLP communities made it clear they didn't care about it anymore because of that when the crowdfund was announced. Others also thought they were asking for too much money, and that it looked like a rip-off, and that they disappeared for a long time... and other things.
The game really didn't inherit all that support from its Fighting is Magic times, but instead has had to stand on its own with its design and features. At most, the MLP fandom has served more as a network to spread the word "Hey, ManeSix are now back with a new game with a new IP blah blah... Back it if you can!". Beyond that, no ponies, no monies (dead serious on this one, people stop caring if it has no ponies).
Support has gone more to the dedication the team has displayed all these years, the cute designs of the new quadruped characters (both these and the ponies were designed by the same person: Lauren Faust, thus similar designs), backing a new fighting game, and of course those that indeed support what used to be a MLP fan game.
Besides, why bother paying for this new game when a Tribute Edition of Fighting is Magic was hacked and released over a year ago for free by some other guys.
Sorry for being off-topic, wanted to address this regarding TFH.
Fake edit: What SpaceCadetKeon said, too.
Personally, I feel like it's indiegogo and the pricetag they put on their game using that service. A kickstarter for $1.5 Mil isn't anything out of the ordinary, but they're asking for quite a high pricetag on a service that isn't as renown/trusted as Kickstarter (for games at least).
Shenmue is a known IP, and Bloodstained is banking on a known IP. When you say Shenmue or Castlevania, people have a very good idea of what you're talking about. You can imagine how the entire game will play out. Not so much in this case.
Also, I disagree with this sentiment, but people are often unwilling to pay more than $15 for indie games. When Axiom Verge was announced for $20, there were so many people who threw a fit. It's terrible and short-sighted, but the $30 price tag is probably even more of an issue for people who think like that.
Add to that the fact that the game is a really niche weird genre (this is the main turnoff for me) and you end up with the game not being that appealing to many groups.
Pejo
Member
Good point. In their shoes I'd probably be doing whatever I could to clear up misconceptions to try to get the project made as well. I guess it falls into one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios. I still feel that some of the responses have been condescending though, which is probably not helping them.
Yeah, it's definitely a tough spot to be in. I don't envy them.
War Machine
Member
For people saying they need to budget money for crowdfunding: Can't you just look at the date the campaign ends and back it shortly before that?
Where have I come off as condescending?
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
It worked for Shaq Fu.
Pejo
Member
There wasn't anything that I read from you that has been condescending. And I'm definitely not trying to do any sort of personal attack. I was referring mainly to a tweet that rubbed me the wrong way a while back.
I can't access Twitter at the moment but it was something to the effect of 'Indivisible looks cool but i'll just buy it when/if it's released' not being a valid view to have.
It's crazy to me that games have gotten to a point where we're expected to buy an unfinished/unproven product or else we won't get new things.
At any rate, I'm not trying to get into an argument about things said on Twitter of all things, the takeaway is just I got that feeling from some of the replies.
I see a lot of that from our fans, and maybe I've said something in that vein on Twitter.
But how else are we supposed to respond to all of these people saying they'll buy it when the game is finished, when the game isn't going to be finished if it's not funded?
It's not meant to be condescending, it's meant to be factual.
Well, that's a shitty way to think.
Gamesadict
Member
Well, yeah, maybe I made it sound like most people said that or something, but it's basically what a good part of the negative reactions were going with. Still others didn't care at all, and others that either were waiting for it or have slowly warmed up to it. There were too many reactions all over the place, so it's not easy to summarize here.
My point is, TFH is not the brony only backed game some may think it is. Fighting is Magic received a lot of attention outside the fandom, which is why they ended up with a C&D. They even had a front page article in GameSpot. Some of those outside supporters showed up again for the crowdfund.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
If someone says "Indivisible looks cool but i'll just buy it when/if it's released" that may actually mean "I'm not interested right now but good job and good luck." They're trying to politely say "no thanks" in the most tactfully way possible so it can come off as aggressive if you press the issue like you're trying to force them to be blunt.
Now if they're saying "Indivisible is just going to get made no matter what and the developers are lying," that's a completely different story and worth responding to.
Wow, if that's you response to " 'Indivisible looks cool but i'll just buy it when/if it's released' not being a valid view to have", that's, quite frankly, condescending and even entitled.
I mean if you like it or dislike it that's one thing but given the prototype (which you can play or watch being played), it seems pretty clear what the baseline for gameplay is. There shouldn't a question of what the minimum to expect is.
Like I don't think what is going with this game is particularly obtuse given that I've played multiple RPGs, Action RPGs or games with Metroidvania elements in my life and I know many gamers have done the same. Like if you like any combination of those genres, I don't see what's not appealing here from a gameplay perspective. Is it specifically the battle system? That's literally the only thing I can think of and there is no way to please everybody in that respect.
I think that's fair though I can understand how its frustrating to hear "I like what you've done and/or are doing and have the means to support you but choose not to." It's not a mean thing to say but it isn't remotely helpful. Like......thanks?
Elaugaufein
Member
JRPG style games often do okay. But its generally the less action based ones. Good turned based games are much rarer (particular for people who don't like the cutesy anime look and very anime plots). The action RPG market is much more saturated, both directly (every FF since XII, Xenogames, etc) and indirectly ( the number of games with RPG elements that aren't action games is tiny) so you don't get the same kind if thirst.
Roguelikes and platformers usually do pretty well though particularly if you can poke the masochistic crowd.
How is stating a clean fact in the open condescending?
It's your interpretation of his statement as such that's far more troublesome than anything he said.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
"I'm kind of annoyed that so many crowdfunding drives at this point have had like 90 per cent of their funding from investors already and have just used it as an interest gauge, because that basically killed our ability to say 'we don't have a publisher and this is not an interest gauge.'"
Is he implying that people are more comfortable backing something they know is going to get made anyway?
Personally, the game looks pretty cool and is probably something I'd end up checking out if it comes out, but it's just not something that I feel strongly inclined to back.
Didn't see this post... and I am definitely one of those people.
Looks cool, I wouldn't mind checking it out, but I'm not interested enough at this stage to put up money for it possibly years in advance.
Clearly there is a big difference between a finished and released product and the mere idea of a product or a prototype. You have to be really interested to jump on board with the latter. Perhaps the interest just isn't there?
Is he implying that people are more comfortable backing something they know is going to get made anyway?
Personally, the game looks pretty cool and is probably something I'd end up checking out if it comes out, but it's just not something that I feel strongly inclined to back.
Didn't see this post... and I am definitely one of those people.
Looks cool, I wouldn't mind checking it out, but I'm not interested enough at this stage to put up money for it possibly years in advance.
Clearly there is a big difference between a finished and released product and the mere idea of a product or a prototype. You have to be really interested to jump on board with the latter. Perhaps the interest just isn't there?
Elaugaufein
Member
Think he's more saying that using Crowdfunding as glorified focus group / marketing really hurts those who genuinely need to crowdfund. It also gives artificially low impressions of dev costs since the publisher is actually carrying 90% of it.
Is this the prevailing through process behind crowd funding backers? That just seems strange to me.
Indiegogo issues notwithstanding, I find myself taking the opposite view point. For games that are a "sure thing" my first thought is generally "alright well I can wait for it to come out then". That's what I did with Bloodstained and Yooka-Laylee, and I'm sure I'll enjoy them when they release. Not so much with Indivisible because if it doesn't reach the goal with or without my help, it isn't happening. If anything, games that are not a sure thing have more dire consequences for missing a contribution (game doesn't get made) than ones that are already funded (might miss some stretch goals).
I suppose there's something to be said for seeing the validation an already funded project has (a "it's been funded so it must be worth getting in on" mentality), but only being on the lookout for successful projects seems like the wrong way to go about crowdfunding in general. The whole point is to make these projects possible in the first place.
Yes, but that's the thing. It's just a baseline. We don't know what the level design will be like. We don't know how good L0 are at designing metroidvania levels or JRPG combat. This is just a prototype. There are several types of metroidvanias, and having backed/played many, some are just lacking in their level design. Axiom Verge is miles ahead of them, because the level design isn't just "find a powerup and 5 minutes later you'll find one of the 2 places you'll ever use it". We don't know how the game will play out over the course of its play length. We do know these for IGA games or Shenmue, because they've shown us with several games. We have a well-realized idea of what to expect. When people back those games, they back based on the experience and expectation they have there.
With this, we have just the prototype which is a basic demonstration of the mechanics and early level design. We don't know how the mechanics or complexity evolve over the course of the game. This also goes for the "I'll buy it when it's finished" comments, as we will know more about the game by then.
Also, personally, I'm not a fan of the hand drawn characters over 3D backgrounds look, but that's just me.
Yeah, I think this on point and the latter is a good suggestion for these kind of campaigns. I still haven't downloaded the demo because my mindset is "I'll play it when the full game comes out, if it gets made". Whereas I've watched some clips and stuff just to get a feel for what it is, and it looks really cool and impressive.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I guess I'm really not seeing a big different between this and Bloodstained other than a matter of degrees. In both cases, you have an outside investor who has agreed to fund over half the project if a successful crowdfunding campaign is carried out. In both cases, if the campaign fails, no money is provided & the game isn't made. Indivisible's page is more detailed about the investor arrangement and Bloodstained's investor was more willing to shoulder risk for the game, but otherwise, they're pretty similar.
Honestly they get a lot of people early by giving game discounts. In many cases you can get a $30 game for $15 or $20 thus giving you some reward for backing early. In this case the only reward you get for your backing is a special color, wallpapers, and the soundtrack. For many people they would rather just save some money. I mean look at bloodstained 31% of their backers went with the $28 digital copy that has none of the backer rewards.
AdaWong
Junior Member
Are you seriously serious with this post?
There is no game if it is not funded. If anything, he's being informative to the casual fan.
If he responded with "Lo0o0o0oL No WorrieZZ!!11" and the game does not get funded and therefore not made, that casual fan would come back months later and ask "hey guys what happened to that game" and they'd think L0 are being sketchy for not mentioning the game / posting updates about it when there is nothing to post about because the game is not being made.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
The latter may be true, but some of the biggest funding successes have been from the "gonna get made anyway" projects, so people seem to enjoy that peace of mind factor... maybe.
I don't know if it's fair to say that more money would be going to true indie projects if those bigger projects that already have publishers didn't turn to crowd funding. Seems like a shaky claim to me.
Have there been any truly indie projects that also didn't have extremely strong name power associated with them yet managed to fund with goals of $1M or more?
I haven't seen the original language used, but if the person in question truly said that's not a valid view to have, then it is not just being informative--it's entitles and condescending. It's a perfectly valid view to have. Telling people who say that, "Unfortunately, it won't get made if it doesn't get funded. We would appreciate your support if you're interested!" would be a way to inform them without pissing them off at the same time.
He's saying that our goal is perceived as high, because other games aren't actually raising their real budget. They have to raise 10% of their budget to prove that the game is viable, in the case of Bloodstained. Or they actually didn't need any money to finish Yooka-Laylee.
A low goal does seem to make people think something is more of "a sure thing," but in many cases that low number is only possible because of outside investment, or other things that are not usually transparently or honestly spelled out in the campaign.
AdaWong
Junior Member
https://twitter.com/IndivisibleRPG/status/654850598362189824
"@ultimablackmage Thanks, but there wont be a copy to buy if were not funded. Even if you cant support directly, spreading the word helps!"
"@IndivisibleRPG will do. If funding could be done in the new year I'd have been able to help fund it."
The guy himself didn't take the reply as "condescending" as someone here is saying.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Nothing condescending there. That's exactly how you should respond to those sort of comments.
Here is a stream archive link to where one of the designers talk about what went into the level design of the prototype and thoughts they have moving forward for the full game. If you don't have time to watch it, at least know that this sort of information is being provided by the dev team. I've also seen Mike Z play and dissect Super Metroid more than once. He's also answered gameplay related questions about Indivisible several times though those stream archives are huge so it might be hard to pinpoint answers if you don't have time to watch it all. I totally understand having a better idea of how level design might play out in an Igavania since he's made a lot of games of that sort but more information on level design is available for this game. If you liked the level design of the prototype (I have no idea if you do or not), I feel like you can reasonably expect the final product to be a lot better in this regard. If the base minimum was appealing to you, I think you should be able to feel good about the full thing.
Since Ravidrath is here, posting in this thread and the other Indivisble thread, feel free to politely press him for answers. Unlike most crowdfunding campaigns, a member of the dev team is actually on this board and very active.
As for 2D character on 3D backgrounds, they said multiple times that it is something they will work to improve on. If the game gets funded the final product will look much better in that regard. I know I've seen some updated pictures but I don't have that link on hand. Maybe Ravidrath has them?
Father_Brain
Banned
But you're raising less than half of your actual budget.
Obviously, it would be easier for you with a Bloodstained arrangement, but I don't see how there's such a vast difference in principle.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Indeed. That seems like a perfectly reasonable response and it isn't taking the position that sentiments of wanting to buy later but not back now are invalid. It's just saying that it probably won't be possible to buy later.