The facts are this: the vote count says you were the second to vote on Flux. The upheaval was people switching votes around between the two. You stayed put. If that wasn't you being careful not to do something foolish (and let me remind you that Town is blissfully foolish in these games), then it seems like you were convinced Flux WAS bad. What happened to that conviction? Especially with a relatively inactive Flux on D2. What changed?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Batman [Mafia] |OT| The mafia game Gafia deserves , but not the one it needs
- Thread starter roytheone
- Start date
The facts are this: the vote count says you were the second to vote on Flux. The upheaval was people switching votes around between the two. You stayed put. If that wasn't you being careful not to do something foolish (and let me remind you that Town is blissfully foolish in these games), then it seems like you were convinced Flux WAS bad. What happened to that conviction? Especially with a relatively inactive Flux on D2. What changed?
The second to vote and the main driver poking holes in his defense for most of the final 24 hours, something you don't see by just comparing lists. The upheaval was because Topo had just role claimed a PR. What was I going to do, change my vote away from the unclaimed person who I had been scum reading all day to the freshly claimed PR that I was mostly meh about for most of day 1 since all he really did was argue that read lists were bad when really he meant worthless reads are bad? I have to take it as a whole. Flux is a bad player at times, I went after him all the same at the start of day 2 and then, boom, he is gone with a replacement inbound. The replacement doesn't show up until what, less than 12 hours left? We were on day 2 so it's not like I'm going to throw him over the coals based on what his predecessor did. We're on day 3 now though and no scum dead which is a bit more of a precarious situation so while I am still keeping an eye on Absolut, I've also been scum reading others more at the moment and am more interested in them.
Speaking of:
Vote: Coppanuva
for all the good it does right now anyway apparently.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
I think vote-thievery would be weak enough to warrant multiple shots, though IDK if it would be flat-out unlimited. I guess if a roleblocker would like to come forward and say he blocked someone, then that might help us, but it's probably best if they stay quiet unless they actually block a kill.
Could go either way, there is a difference between vote theft (one player gets their vote adjusted to 0 and another gets their vote adjusted to 2) and vote removal (where someone just loses a vote). While Camjo is right and this seems joker-esque with the bad pun in the vote log, we don't know if someone is holding my vote or not at the moment. We also have no indication if this is permanent or not, if my vote is just neutered for the game now then x-shot for sure but if this is just a one day thing, then I could see it being a power useable the whole game.
We can take it a step further though if we want to think of it as a scum power. The golden question (which we can't answer yet because there hasn't been a scum flip) is can scum both kill and use their PR if applicable? If not then that might explain why this was missing D2.
Or a roleblocker too I guess, but if there is one in the game then I'd caution waiting until you know you've been blocking a kill. We lose roleblockers early around here because one kill-less night shows up and they have to claim immediately (Ouro)
All according to keikaku
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
Only under the assumption that Cam is actually scum. If anything, it seems to me like the Override could be an attempt to balance the game in a scenario where town is unable to properly vote out scum because of vote removal...
I don't consider changing the weight of a single player's vote the same as an override but even if you did what Pop said makes sense from a balancing view:
Xamtheking
Member
Also, if you guys think Launch is scummy, why would Launch and co not have killed me last night, because in my eyes launch believed my claim, but since I'm not dead, scum either didn't believe the claim or think I won't be an issue for them for some reason.
They wanted to throw shade on you for surviving, they were worried about a watcher, they weren't worried about you actually stopping their kill because of either a strongman or just because it was unlikely you would protect TL21. Any one, combination, or just all of the above.
Why do you feel your lack of death is proof of Launch's town-ness? I don't see how you living has anything at all to do with Launch's alignment.
Alfred, are you there?
The party was pretty much what I expected. The guest list had a less-than-savory character on it. Now we're all going to take the blame, and the ambiguity of identity will dominate discussion for most of today. I'm thinking they refuse to kill me because of our Batcomputer list from earlier. It lends too much credibility to the list.
Also, what's for dinner?
Ooh!
That sounds delicious, Alfred. I can't sit still any longer. It's time to take the bull by the horns and remove ourselves from the equation.
WOOF
dog pun WOOF WOOF
I didn't mean the cowboys WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF
He didn't know a dog could talk WOOF WOOF
So sorry, Robin, I'm a dog and I can't write RRRRRRRRWOOF!
sleeping dogs WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF arrrRRRRRR BARK
WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF
AWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWOOOWOOOWOOOOWOOOO
It's not Batman,
it's Ace the Bathound.
*does a dog dance*
Woof!
Alfred said:
The party was pretty much what I expected. The guest list had a less-than-savory character on it. Now we're all going to take the blame, and the ambiguity of identity will dominate discussion for most of today. I'm thinking they refuse to kill me because of our Batcomputer list from earlier. It lends too much credibility to the list.
Also, what's for dinner?
Alfred said:
Ooh!
That sounds delicious, Alfred. I can't sit still any longer. It's time to take the bull by the horns and remove ourselves from the equation.
Alfred said:
WOOF
dog pun WOOF WOOF
Wrangling up groups of people to talk about. It's more like Bruce Wayne: Texas Ranger.
I didn't mean the cowboys WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF
He didn't know a dog could talk WOOF WOOF
So sorry, Robin, I'm a dog and I can't write RRRRRRRRWOOF!
sleeping dogs WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF arrrRRRRRR BARK
WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF
AWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWOOOWOOOWOOOOWOOOO
It's not Batman,
it's Ace the Bathound.
*does a dog dance*
Woof!
woah one of my fakeclaims came true
except it turned out to be "Ace the Bat Hound Being Distracted by a Shitty Gambit"
except it turned out to be "Ace the Bat Hound Being Distracted by a Shitty Gambit"
Cool
You can certainly try. Reading you has been about as easy as reading a dead language so far and this new trick (whether I'm supposed to take it as a real or fake claim) is just something else I have to think about anyway.
Xamtheking
Member
Karkador, is your power to take a massive dump on the thread?
I am joking
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
You should know that I'm not bullshitting about the Batcomputer list. It's a random list, but I still do believe that mafia reacted to it. They are either in the bolded, or El Topo happens to be mafia.
Launch is claiming there's 'non-Town' in the group of 4 he investigated. You should know that I'm a Town player in that list. If you want to go after Coppa, that's okay - but I feel like Mafia (or "non-Town") would not have walked right into that without some kind of gameplan.
El Topo is riding on a shifty claim that he did something to the mafia chat. Nobody has verified him. Mafia would most certainly not have entered Launch's plan if they didn't have their chat to discuss it. El Topo is lying, or Launch is lying.
Both of these players, by the way, have exhausted their claimed 1-shots. If you want answers? Lynch one of these two.
Launch is claiming there's 'non-Town' in the group of 4 he investigated. You should know that I'm a Town player in that list. If you want to go after Coppa, that's okay - but I feel like Mafia (or "non-Town") would not have walked right into that without some kind of gameplan.
El Topo is riding on a shifty claim that he did something to the mafia chat. Nobody has verified him. Mafia would most certainly not have entered Launch's plan if they didn't have their chat to discuss it. El Topo is lying, or Launch is lying.
Both of these players, by the way, have exhausted their claimed 1-shots. If you want answers? Lynch one of these two.
Do you honestly believe that TL21 wasn't spending energy yesterday trying to subtly show that he investigated Topo night 1? Does that not seem pretty close to verified for you? As people have pointed out, Camjo is the only other one it could have been but 1) why would you investigate someone who just did an override and 2) why would he have been putting Topo in his top town category, even going so far to divide him away from Fireblend and myself?
I do find it interesting that we now have two players who have presented us a list of four and circumstances point that there is non-town in each list of 4. The theming is a little bit too consistent for my taste and while I know 4 was a fluke for Launch's plan, it just all seems so convenient. At the end of the day, you are right, I think your bolded 4 got a reaction for some reason. I doubt it was Topo from what we know so far. I also want to believe Launch but it's obvious that we have to take that on a prayer that he isn't scum trying to dance us down the road.
My scummy list at the end of the day was Coppa, Karu, and Tl21xx with you and Xam on deck but a little behind based on Xam's claim and your, I don't know, desire to gambit in the spotlight and maybe PR claim (which we are digging into more now) Tl21xx is obviously off that list, wrong there. From the non claimed list I'm now looking at Karu and Coppa, one person from each of these two lists. I didn't start banging on Karu until after the bat computer stuff and I think his presence in the bolded has colored me a bit, I still find him scummy but my read of Coppa came from way before Launch invited people to his birthday so I feel like that one is less colored from potential lies which is why I am sticking to it for now.
Close to verified isn't verified, but if you really believe El Topo is cleared, then you need to take a look at Launch.
It would be a bit weird (though far from impossible) for scum to vote for Camjo without a chat to plan their course of action.
Assuming they had the option of choosing:
I'm speaking as someone who's never been scum, but it doesn't seem that impossible to me for a lone scum to vote. Especially not if it was an experienced player who might have figured out what was going on.
Assuming they had the option of choosing:
I don't quite remember what the circumstances were for the other two.
I'm speaking as someone who's never been scum, but it doesn't seem that impossible to me for a lone scum to vote. Especially not if it was an experienced player who might have figured out what was going on.
I'm not going to throw out our name cops potential night 1 check just because he died and could not spell it out in bold. He did a good job of hiding it but still making it easy to find in retrospect. Let's try this though because you seem to be vested in this (I've thought about this a bit already). Why is it an either/or scenario with Launch or Topo? Let's take it as if both are telling the truth. Scum had no day communication and Launch was trying to wrangle people into a group investigation. Well, first off, everyone did a great job of not saying that it was a group investigation, something I'm honestly shocked at. This means that some scum members may not have even realized that was what this might have been. Shocking, I know, but not all scum are super pro leet players, they may not have thought through what Launch was claiming and without a team to talk to might have just walked blindly into the trap, but let's pretend everyone knew what Launch was doing and this was all transparent.
Would scum have entered the vote? No, probably not, unless they were forced to. So case by case:
You entered the vote here. It was after Launch had already said Camjo was the target I believe so you did willingly enter but there were quite a few times where Launch called for you, specifically, to stay in the vote. You even made him say aloud that he wanted you in the vote here. So yeah, you entered willingly but leaving would have looked really bad if Launch ever flipped (again this exercise is just assuming Launch telling the truth) so you have vested interest in this either Topo or Launch is lying thing.
Next Xam enters the vote. His is an odd situation. He enters willingly for Launch but then tries to leave once here, goes right back in a couple posts later because Launch does not specifically ask him to but does say that he wants three living people on there (it does sound like a sticking point to me as well that he keeps asking for living people but it makes sense, if he happens to get a group of 3 town members that he gets a big group clear of all players that are still alive). Xam then plays around a bit but gets off the rollercoaster with Absolut taking his place.For bonus points, you actually ask off of the rollercoaster for Absolut here but Launch softly declines you again here. Now we have both you and Xam being scummy again, biting off more than you can chew with whatever Launch was plotting and then trying to escape and I'm not sure who is worse, you asking a few times to get off and continually getting denied or Xam successfully ducking out. Moving on though:
Coppa jumps on here. And that's really all that happens with Coppa. He gets on of his own accord and if we are assuming that everyone can read Launch's exact motive this is actually a point in favor of a town Coppa as opposed to the scum Coppa that I've been seeing.
Next up was Absolut, swapping spots with Xam here. Kind of the same deal as Coppa, went on of his own accord. Pretty town move as it all still stayed within Launch's perimeters. The only way this is scummy is if Xam and Absolut are both scum together and Xam has the more important PR which is a possibility but I don't think I'd chase Absolut on that point alone without knowing Xam's alignment.
Finally is Ty4on here. As Launch probably pondered the whole night phase, it's odd that he just rushed into the party pretty much headlong. He gives a decent excuse that matches up with his activity, he was busy (as he even says in that post) and someone did invite him to vote onto it. It's a move that I could see from a fully in communication scum team if they had figured out Launch's exact power and they wanted to get someone in to spoil the milk and maybe Ty4on just figured it out on his own and charged in on balls and gambits alone. Middling all around.
So if I had to order the whole list from scummy to least scummy just based on how they got on/off the list and how they acted while on the lsit it would go Kark, Xam, Ty4on, Absolut, Coppa.
And you know what, writing this has talked me out of this slump. Voting for Kark worries me because he is such a strong player, mislynching someone run of the mill still stings a bit because they are town and are padding our numbers but losing a big mover over an incorrect guess always hurts things but there is so much writing on the wall. Creating WIFOM with the bat computer, tying votes at the end of day 1, arguing the overrider for a huge portion of day 2, starting to cast doubt on the probable cop check of TL21xx on Topo from N1, and now stirring the pot to make sure people distrust Launch as much as possible. I don't know if Launch is telling the truth and this theory obviously stakes itself that Launch is telling the truth (or is at least town even if this whole role was just the most intense gambit ever) but you seem to have stake in assuming that he is lying even going so far to set up that one or the other of Topo or Launch lying when it's not the case at all that they can;t both be telling the truth (or both lying but Topo appears to be town from my view).
So have my token vote Kark, it doesn;t seem to count for anything but I think you are the issue and I've been dancing around it for days too worried that I'd be mislynching one of the other people putting in a lot of content.
VOTE: Karkador
weemadarthur
Member
There once was a man from Nantucket
Who'll curse us, and I did bad luck it
Says a mod in PM
It is yours per diem
If you don't like the rule you can suck it
Who'll curse us, and I did bad luck it
Says a mod in PM
It is yours per diem
If you don't like the rule you can suck it
Xamtheking
Member
Maybe
Just maybe
El topo, sorian, karkador, and launch are all town, and there is indeed scum in the 4 people who voted for camjo
Now, even if you don't believe that to be the case, we need information. If we have no more investigation roles that can actively do things still alive, the only way we will get information is through watcher/trackers and flips. I would prefer it if our watcher/tracker didn't come out of the woodwork right now, which leads to flips being what we can work with right now.
I personally think Launch is telling the truth, so I think we should look at coppa, ty4on, and absolutbro.
Speaking of
VOTE: Coppanuva
Just maybe
El topo, sorian, karkador, and launch are all town, and there is indeed scum in the 4 people who voted for camjo
Now, even if you don't believe that to be the case, we need information. If we have no more investigation roles that can actively do things still alive, the only way we will get information is through watcher/trackers and flips. I would prefer it if our watcher/tracker didn't come out of the woodwork right now, which leads to flips being what we can work with right now.
I personally think Launch is telling the truth, so I think we should look at coppa, ty4on, and absolutbro.
Speaking of
VOTE: Coppanuva
LaunchpadMcQ
Banned
I've not had much time to keep up, but I've skimmed the thread just now.
I'll throw out a hypothetical. I've outlived my utility, as far as my role goes (and as some would say, probably as an ordinary). Would you guys want to lynch me to prove my information is legit? I'm not advocating for it, but hypothetically, you prove my list is legit, scum can't NK any town from that list without dwindling the list down (actually, the funny part is the town in that list will probably be safe unless scum decides to bus), and you'll catch scum in the next phase or the one after. I'm thinking it's not ideal, but it's something worth keeping in mind. Again, this isn't me falling on the sword; in any case, I've not done the math, but I'm not sure we can afford that strategy in terms of mislynches allowed to win.
False. There's no evidence that our abilities contradict each other. The lucky part of using my ability yesterday is that, if Topo told the truth, a smart scum could have figured out what was going on but not been able to share with his teammates. Funnily enough, you seemed to be dancing around with some crazy guesses yesterday. It almost seems like you were trying to throw people off your sent after realizing what my ability was, yet being unable to break your word on keeping your vote there. The cute bit is that you invited Ty4on into this.
VOTE: Karkador
Explain this. I told you I had it under control; why did you invite someone else to the vote?
I'll throw out a hypothetical. I've outlived my utility, as far as my role goes (and as some would say, probably as an ordinary). Would you guys want to lynch me to prove my information is legit? I'm not advocating for it, but hypothetically, you prove my list is legit, scum can't NK any town from that list without dwindling the list down (actually, the funny part is the town in that list will probably be safe unless scum decides to bus), and you'll catch scum in the next phase or the one after. I'm thinking it's not ideal, but it's something worth keeping in mind. Again, this isn't me falling on the sword; in any case, I've not done the math, but I'm not sure we can afford that strategy in terms of mislynches allowed to win.
False. There's no evidence that our abilities contradict each other. The lucky part of using my ability yesterday is that, if Topo told the truth, a smart scum could have figured out what was going on but not been able to share with his teammates. Funnily enough, you seemed to be dancing around with some crazy guesses yesterday. It almost seems like you were trying to throw people off your sent after realizing what my ability was, yet being unable to break your word on keeping your vote there. The cute bit is that you invited Ty4on into this.
VOTE: Karkador
Explain this. I told you I had it under control; why did you invite someone else to the vote?
Xamtheking
Member
Worst haiku ever
0/10
Huh, vote nonsense AND post restrictions? What is this game Roy?
I find it odd that you are allowed to talk about your post restriction, that's usually been a no-go if memory serves.
I didn't invite Ty4on, he came out of nowhere and offered to switch with me. I told him I would rather he join, than we switch. If something was going to happen with that group, like some kind of group investigation, I would rather be in it and know something about how you got the result, rather than nothing.
There are 14 players left. Oddly, there has been no hint of a serial killer or otherwise malicious neutral and aside from Camjo, no real hint of a neutral at all (what I'm saying is are we finally doing a game with no neutrals?). Anyway, with this distinct lack of other killing roles so far I've been assuming 4 scum but there may be 5 to compensate for this otherwise slow movement so for worst case math, let's assume 5, let's also assume one extra night kill somewhere along the way (I'll put it into the math for N3) plus no protection because missed kills or crapshoots to bank on and I find it hard to believe there isn't at least a 1-shot vig if not a more powered up killing role around.
Mislynch D3 plus the two kills speculated on above for N3 = 11 players left (5 scum, 6 not scum)
Mislynch D4 plus the night kill = 9 players left (5 scum, 4 town, game over if 5 scum)
If there is only 4 scum as math would more dictate:
Mislynch D5 plus the night kill = 7 players left (4 scum, 3 town)
Even without that extra kill that I put in just in case, that's still a maximum of 3, minimum of 2 mislynches remaining, maybe squeezing out one or two if kills miss. So no, if you are town, I don't think we can afford you falling on the sword for us just to prove your role.
weemadarthur
Member
I can't say what's normal around here.
I paraphrased the message, dear.
Is the limerick
Sufficient trick
That it's ok if I say it real clear?
The more sound reasoning would be to assume that mafia tries to make their voting moves with the least amount of noise as possible. That's why mafia hide in votes on their own team, and that's why mafia cast votes on random nobodies to look like they're active and making uninformed mistakes.
Xamtheking
Member
Note: I am not in limerick mode, just wanna be friendly
If you are under a curse
Which for you is certainly worse
Where might it be
If we've only seen it on D3
Where has been this limerick curse
Going to guess Mad Hatter by the way. Maybe obvious to other's but the obvious Joker-ness of my missing vote went over my head.
And that's wonderful but as far as I am concerned, mafia was out of touch from each other yesterday. Even the best players could stumble a bit when they lose their biggest advantage, communication. You got roped into that vote and there is plenty of indication that you wanted out. By itself, that is just Launch's word vs. yours but you've been playing a game of "gambits" and they stop being gambits and start being scummy after awhile.
weemadarthur
Member
Since Mazre turned out to be towny
I'm feeling quite sad and I'm frowny.
He seemed almost glad
That we thought he was bad.
What made him so lazy and clowny?
I want to lynch mafia on the third day
And I'm looking to see what's the best play.
I admit my reads
Were not the best leads
So I'll follow experience today.
Vote: Karkador
I'm feeling quite sad and I'm frowny.
He seemed almost glad
That we thought he was bad.
What made him so lazy and clowny?
I want to lynch mafia on the third day
And I'm looking to see what's the best play.
I admit my reads
Were not the best leads
So I'll follow experience today.
Vote: Karkador
I think that this curse is a fake
If you don't agree with me go jump in a lake
Cuz there's no way that scum
Would be quite so dumb
as to clear everyone for christ's sake
No thanks. Time for this dog to speak.
If you don't agree with me go jump in a lake
Cuz there's no way that scum
Would be quite so dumb
as to clear everyone for christ's sake
No thanks. Time for this dog to speak.
How did I get roped in? I already knew Camjo was the guy he had his thing on, and I voted. If I really wanted to back out of that, I would have.
weemadarthur
Member
It is clear by me being the first one
To limerick, there was no cursed one
On day two. But beware
If he chooses a snare
Day four might be by far the worst one.
I'm guessing the role is a scum one,
Or a neutral, but that's a more dumb one.
If this guy did the kill
And could not use the skill,
It explains why it didn't get someone.
You realize scum could just target their own with these abilities right? I don't think that is the case here because I know I'm not scum and I still don't really see scummy behavior from weemad but a missing vote with 14 players left is fairly non-issue and a post restriction is as innocuous as they come, I wouldn't just write either of us out of your equations because we were targeted by probable scum.
Funny you should mention that, because that's what I think you did to yourself on N2
weemadarthur
Member
Forced poetry should never clear me, as
Naught to do with alignment it has.
I do like to talk,
And this puts a sock
In my mouth, if I can't do the lines fast.
You were chasing down Camjo way before Launch said anything. You had other suspects so you could have easily gone for them but to suddenly drop Camjo completely after Launch said something would have been a huge red flag. And sure, you could have backed out, it was not literally impossible, but if Launch was ever found to be telling the truth, it would look mighty weird if you were suddenly backing out of that vote when investigation was written all over the place. You were fairly trapped in that vote and you were looking for permission to leave because if Launch had asked you to leave at any point, that would have been a good post to point back at.
Great, I'd take you more seriously if I didn't think you were scum trying to claw out of the hole.