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Magic: the Gathering |OT8| Eldritch Moon - It's only a paper (and digital) moon

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[QUOTE="God's Beard!";213030534]I agree, Snapcaster Mage x Ash Zealot should be the main plot.[/QUOTE]

I thought of a red card where it would cause two creatures on opposite sides of the battlefield to fall in love, each could no longer deal damage or they'd exile themselves away or something.
 

Ashodin

Member
The problem here is that you aren't even arguing against shipping. You're actually arguing against romance existing in a piece of fiction unless its actually written on the tin, which is an absurdly arbitrary restriction on character development.

Well then I guess that would be a discussion for another time then! Since I'm confusing and/or not relating to the discussion at hand. :)
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Mono-Red Burn is pretty okay, actually.

SaffronOlive was playing it with Bedlam Reveler for no apparent reason (i.e. he was in love with "but its Ancestral Recall!"), so I took it out and put Insolent Neonate in.

-3 Bedlam Reveler
-4 Fiery Impulse
+4 Insolent Neonate
+3 Avacyn's Judgment

Honestly, Thermo-Alchemist is probably too cute. I think Reckless Bushwacker is just better a lot of the time (meaning your opponent isn't playing green for Sylvan or Grim Flayer).
 
Reddit AMA with Sam Stoddard, who lead-developed Eldritch Moon. Other than the massive amount of whining about reprints in the top comment, notable things are:
* Sam came up with land freezing in red. Stensia Inkeeper was originally a 3/1 creature for 1RR still with its land freezing ability, but they made it late in development, and they felt it wasn't right to push land freezing when they didn't have time to properly test it.
* Red getting a 2/2 for 1R at common is considered a much bigger deal than, say, the 2/1 for R with an upside at rare it got the set before due to its significance to Limited.
* Giving creatures higher stats for their cost makes black's destruction spells stronger but makes red's damage spells weaker. It's difficult to adjust red damage spells, because a card for 1R that deals 4 damage to a creature or player is very strong. They can split things up, so that some spells hit only creatures and others only players, but Sam views that as a net negative for red.

* Red-Green Landfall is a lot weaker than they thought it would be.
* They feel they aimed too low on red burn spells this Standard.
* In the future, more of red's power will be in burn spells rather than efficient one-drop creatures.

* They feel Disdainful Stroke and Dissolve is about the right power level for blue counter spells.
* With duel decks, they feel it's a mistake if two skilled players are evenly matched using the decks but two beginners are imbalanced 90/10, or vice versa. The decks have to be balanced for multiple levels of skill.
* In Modern, though Infect can win turn two, it can also be stopped with a Path to Exile, which can be found mainboard in many decks. On the other hand, few decks have mainboard answers to Storm decks. That's why the latter is a problem but not the former.

* Sam also acknowledges that Battle for Zendikar had a lot of problems.
* Concerning whether the cards unique to the upcoming Planeswalker Decks could run into the same issue Reflector Mage did, where it was pushed for its format (Limited) without considering the repercussions to Standard, Sam says it's easier to focus on those cards as a batch.
* Concerning the lack of graveyard-hate in Standard, Sam says they wanted Shadows over Innistrad to have a chance to work. This is a shift from what we saw in the original Innistrad block, where we got Grafdigger's Cage in Dark Ascension to hate out the decks Innistrad was supposedly pushing.

* They acknowledge that blue card draw is too weak this Standard. A big part of this was overcompensating for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
* To get the story in player's hands, they've started printing story moments on strong and splashy cards. They view things like the Eldritch Moon Pro Tour being decided by Emrakul vs. Liliana as being preferable to it being decided by some big monster vs. some necromancer.
* They tested emerge cards with Kozilek's Return, but didn't go so far as to use Wretched Gryff and Vessel of Nascency.

* With meld, there just isn't a lot of room for many pairs in a set. He thinks they could maybe get 4 or 5 pairs in a large set, but he thinks 3 in a small set was the right number.
* 2-mana mana dorks (creatures that tap to produce mana) have proven to be weaker than they'd like, outside of Sylvan Caryatid, which was just frustrating.
* In hindsight, Sam wishes they included more Alpha reprints in Magic Origins.

* Eldritch Evolution exiles itself due to Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
* Comparing the level of changes between large and small sets after the shift to two-set blocks, with Battle for Zendikar -> Oath of the Gatewatch being greater and SOI->EMN being lesser, they will be favoring the level of changes between SOI and EMN.
* The lack of a core set to use as a pivot in Standard has been a big challenge, and he expects that there will be mistakes in the first two years of the two-set block paradigm as a result, but they're getting better at it.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Dissolve is overpowered (meaning, in the environment where Dissolve was good it was REALLY good).
 
Crazy, I was just testing Owen's list and I dredged out a third of my deck both games and didn't see a single Ishkanah or eldrazi either game. Almost won a game off the Wild Nacatls, but still. It's only one match but I guess that PT finals is something that could happen.
 

El Topo

Member
2CMC mana dorks are not sensational? Why, who would have thought that? Then again, probably good that there's not a 1 CMC mana dork that might push Green even further. Interesting AMA though, thanks for the great summary, Sigma.
 
Reddit AMA with Sam Stoddard, who lead-developed Eldritch Moon. Other than the massive amount of whining about reprints in the top comment, notable things are:
* Comparing the level of changes between large and small sets after the shift to two-set blocks, with Battle for Zendikar -> Oath of the Gatewatch being greater and SOI->EMN being lesser, they will be favoring the level of changes between SOI and EMN.

But BFZ -> OGW was fantastic and SOI -> EMN is pretty bad.
 
But BFZ -> OGW was fantastic and SOI -> EMN is pretty bad.

BFZ -> OGW was not fantastic, mechanics like processing and colorless mana suffered a lot from not being block-wide. Limited and the block overall would feel better if it were more cohesive. EMN suffers from the fact that it carried over two of the more boring mechanics, we'd probably like it more if it had Investigate instead of, say, Madness.
 

Ashodin

Member
But BFZ -> OGW was fantastic and SOI -> EMN is pretty bad.

You mean OGW was fantastic. It just made BFZ seem worse and terrible.

And you're correct, SOI was amazing and EMN seems worse because of it.

I foresee this will always be the case - one set will always overshadow the other depending on how good one or the other is perceived.
 
BFZ -> OGW was not fantastic, mechanics like processing and colorless mana suffered a lot from not being block-wide. Limited and the block overall would feel better if it were more cohesive. EMN suffers from the fact that it carried over two of the more boring mechanics, we'd probably like it more if it had Investigate instead of, say, Madness.

Processing was indeed one of the mechanics you could have issues with but not because you lacked tools to exile cards but because you could miss the payoff in BFZ.
There's barely madness in EMN as is, not to speak of actually good madness, but there's too many enablers goading you into it and 1 pack of SOI can't salvage that. Investigate would actually have worked with the madness enablers just as well since they are good creatures on their own and great if you can undo the card disadvantage.

You mean OGW was fantastic. It just made BFZ seem worse and terrible.

And you're correct, SOI was amazing and EMN seems worse because of it.

I foresee this will always be the case - one set will always overshadow the other depending on how good one or the other is perceived.

Not exactly OOB was a better format than OOO would have been. EMN isn't just bad in comparison to SOI, I didn't like SOI that much to start.
 

Hero

Member
I ran a mix of his deck and Reid Duke's on Friday night. The scenario that happened in the finals was a significant force in my draws during the night. I had to aggressively mulligan and even then, I wiffed on vessels and grapples that were clutch/needed to get me my land drops.

I like the emrakul/emerge decks and they're fun to play. They mitigate the problem GR ramp had in the past by using the graveyard for discounting (essentially ramping). The "ramp" cards they use can also pivot into getting your answers, almost completely. That said, I'm still playing bant company if I plan on winning Game Day.



And by two years, you mean less than a year, right? Because that's when we had Lightning Strike and Stoke the Flames and Searing Blood.

I meant two blocks not two years. Red is laughably weak starting with BFZ and moving forward.
 

OnPoint

Member
Went and played a modern event tonight with that Tron deck. Glad I did. Trying to get the stupid mistakes out of the way now. Went 2-2, should have been 3-1, could have been 4-0.

Match 1, Game 3 vs GB Elves

My turn begins. My life is at 6. I am facing down a board of elves, well over lethal on the next turn. I have a Wurmcoil and a Chromatic Star in play, as well as full Tron. I draw my card, play one other non-Tron land, pop the Star, naming red. I draw my card... it's an O-stone. Fuck yes. I'm so happy, I can wipe the board and the game can continue. Then -- I move to attacks, swing with my Wurmcoil thinking how happy I am to gain 6 life and have two tokens... shit. That floating red is now gone. I can't both cast and activate the Stone. Fucking. Idiot.

Match 2, Game 2 vs Affinity

Simply put, I wasted a Nature's Claim early on when I should have just used a Bolt. My opponent's soon-to-come Ravager would have died to the Claim when the Bolt wasn't good enough. Really silly and careless mistake and highlights the importance of when to play what. I was up 1-0 in the match and not being able to kill that Ravager was very likely the difference. I lost Game 3 due to no errors on my part, but a good draw by my opponent and a lack of proper top decks from my own pile.

If I can tighten up my play, I can do well, I think. The deck mulligans like a damn champion. Also, one guy had a mono-white Death and Taxes build that seemed SUPER nasty. He is also going to Syracuse on Sunday. I hope I don't run into him. My deck would fold so hard to that.
 
The problem here is that you aren't even arguing against shipping. You're actually arguing against romance existing in a piece of fiction unless its actually written on the tin, which is an absurdly arbitrary restriction on character development.

Also, the type of story that we're talking about is written by people who do in fact understand that it would be uninteresting and off-topic for the target audience if the plotline were primarily about romance and relationships rather than action and excitement. The whole reason shipping is such a thing is that it's how people who like the characters and are interested in their relationships get what they want without the actual content having to be dedicated to that.

Reddit AMA with Sam Stoddard, who lead-developed Eldritch Moon.

There were a lot of really obnoxious and awful comments (I mean, I know, lol reddit) but I think this was actually a very good AMA: took on some questions we don't already know the answers to, admitted in quite a few places to mistakes or things they need to fix, and addressed real, thorny issues of design like the one about how creature efficiency affects black and red.

* Concerning the lack of graveyard-hate in Standard, Sam says they wanted Shadows over Innistrad to have a chance to work. This is a shift from what we saw in the original Innistrad block, where we got Grafdigger's Cage in Dark Ascension to hate out the decks Innistrad was supposedly pushing.

This is funny to me since it's something they've pretty much made a full 360 on. In the olden days they didn't put hosers in to keep their themes from being smothered at birth, then for a while (e.g. Scars of Mirrodin) they put hosers right in the set to make sure nothing would get out of control, now we're back to the no-hosers side again.

Can't believe they couldn't figure out how terrible red burn has been for almost two years now.

One of the things they seem to be getting now is that the very nature of how they test will by default make decks like red burn look better than they really are. The decks they build in the FFL are unfinished and unrefined, without finding a lot of efficiencies that will exist in the real world, which means that the more complex a deck is, the worse it'll be built. Red burn is so straightforward to build that what's probably close to the best build of it is going up against extremely undertuned versions of other decks.

I foresee this will always be the case - one set will always overshadow the other depending on how good one or the other is perceived.

I mean this was always true in 3-set world so I'm not sure there's a reason it would change now.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Also, the type of story that we're talking about is written by people who do in fact understand that it would be uninteresting and off-topic for the target audience if the plotline were primarily about romance and relationships rather than action and excitement. The whole reason shipping is such a thing is that it's how people who like the characters and are interested in their relationships get what they want without the actual content having to be dedicated to that.



There were a lot of really obnoxious and awful comments (I mean, I know, lol reddit) but I think this was actually a very good AMA: took on some questions we don't already know the answers to, admitted in quite a few places to mistakes or things they need to fix, and addressed real, thorny issues of design like the one about how creature efficiency affects black and red.



This is funny to me since it's something they've pretty much made a full 360 on. In the olden days they didn't put hosers in to keep their themes from being smothered at birth, then for a while (e.g. Scars of Mirrodin) they put hosers right in the set to make sure nothing would get out of control, now we're back to the no-hosers side again.



One of the things they seem to be getting now is that the very nature of how they test will by default make decks like red burn look better than they really are. The decks they build in the FFL are unfinished and unrefined, without finding a lot of efficiencies that will exist in the real world, which means that the more complex a deck is, the worse it'll be built. Red burn is so straightforward to build that what's probably close to the best build of it is going up against extremely undertuned versions of other decks.



I mean this was always true in 3-set world so I'm not sure there's a reason it would change now.
There was a period when they would print ridiculous hosers in the next set - Stony Silence in Innistrad and Rest in Peace in Return to Ravnica come to mind.
 
If I can tighten up my play, I can do well, I think. The deck mulligans like a damn champion. Also, one guy had a mono-white Death and Taxes build that seemed SUPER nasty. He is also going to Syracuse on Sunday. I hope I don't run into him. My deck would fold so hard to that.

What was so nasty about the Monowhite D&T List? I know that the matchup is generally in D&T/Hatebears favor thanks to Quarters, Arbiter, Neo Thalia, etc, but I can't see how it can be that bad of a matchup. Most "Nasty" deck I saw vs. Tron was GW that flickered E each turn to get back and use Quarters.
 
Given that comment about wanting to give Shadows over Innistrad a chance to shine, I expect that we won't actually see graveyard hate on the level of Nihil Spellbomb in Kaladesh, but rather in "Barrel" block. We may get spells that exile a set number or a card type from the graveyard in Kaladesh, though.
 
What's your list if I nay ask? I just put together a list and was wondering if I was missing something incredibly obvious.

Too bad Jace is about to rotate.

I'm basically just copying Pedro Carvalho's deck from the Sydney Pro tour. The only thing I was missing was the baby Jaces. I've been trying to make a Thing in the Ice / prowess deck work with little success, so I figured I'd take the pieces that I have and try something that's been proven.

Izzet Machinegun decklist here
 
He has Subjugator Angel in the side. She also bricks Ishkana and Emrakul and with that traverse.
The Emrakul decks lose much of their power if they can't run your best creature into Emrakul.

4 maindeck DCommand, Spellqueller and Selfless Spirits should be more than enough to protect her when it matters.
 

Firemind

Member
thalia and subjugator angel are totally different cards

you try to kill them or get them low enough before they resolve emmy

they can flashback return anyway
 
They are but they serve the same purpose, thalia proactive, the angel reactive.
Thalia let's you keep attacking and potentially close out the game while the opponent still tries to stabilise, the angel enables an alpha strike after they stabilised.
Emrakul flashing back KReturn is barely worth the mention when it fucks you over completely, w/o SS or Avacyn, no matter if you play Thalia or not.
Though on that matter side in Summary Dismissal it deals with Emrakul and all the triggers.


I sold my Emrakul for €15 and German Lili for €28 quite happy right now. Probably finally going to buy a cavern of souls. Damn WotC for not reprinting it.
 

OnPoint

Member
What was so nasty about the Monowhite D&T List? I know that the matchup is generally in D&T/Hatebears favor thanks to Quarters, Arbiter, Neo Thalia, etc, but I can't see how it can be that bad of a matchup. Most "Nasty" deck I saw vs. Tron was GW that flickered E each turn to get back and use Quarters.

I guess I should test against it honestly. But theoretically, I feel like things like Arbiters, Quarters, both Thalias could do some damage to what the deck essentially does. Then they might also have Mindcensor as well... I just gotta make sure I have my Bolts on hand and ready to go early.

I'm also considering altering the sideboard a bit to account for Pyroclasm. I saw a few spots where I wish I had that yesterday, and this matchup might want that.

That said, any day where you get to ultimate Ugin twice is a good day.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Thalia would have been terrible for what Luis was trying to do. I'd much rather have the Trackers and nothing else is worth cutting.
 
So, after playing around with a Superfriends deck for a bit, I have to say I overlooked the flavor win on Oath of Liliana in that the Planeswalker-ETB effect is a "selfish" effect compared to the others, which are generally more designed for "teamwork" or at least neutral in their application.

Like, Oath of Nissa's secondary effect isn't that helpful for playing Nissa; if you're running an overgrown cantrip for 'G', you're probably hitting 1GG pretty consistently, anyway, and green already mana-fixes well. Oath of Gideon is kind of nice for Gideon, but really he can already swap out for his Emblem instantly and usually just wants to plus to become a beatstick nonstop anyway, so it's really better for PWs who are trying to ramp up to their ultimate or probably going to be burning minus abilities right out of the gate (Jace, Tamiyo, Chandra, etc.). Oath of Jace plays nicer with Jace, but the value of Scry does tend to diminish somewhat as you dig deeper and deeper (due to the chance of hitting a card you want and not needing to dig any further going up the deeper you dig), so the added effect is arguably better if you've got a non-Jace PW on the field. Oath of Chandra is the only one out of the original Oaths that really feels like it's tailored to actually using with Chandra in specific, and that's probably just because it's the Red-decked stepchild and no one in design loved it.

Oath of Liliana, though? A free zombie is okay if you're running it with other PWs, sure, but it only really does anything interesting if you're playing Liliana or her own themed cards (like Dark Salvation). More to the point, every other PW you throw down with her oath on the field makes Liliana's eventual ultimate potentially stronger; basically her oath is, "I'll loan you zombies, by which I mean I'll loan me zombies. In exchange, I expect more zombies."

Shame about the flavor text, though.
 
Jund delirium wasn't playing GDDs nor Chandras weird, that's the reason to be red.

Just realized the UB zombies list is pretty close to the critical mass for CoCo, gonna try coco zombies now.
 

ultron87

Member
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That seems pretty strong. Cool way of protecting herself, too.
 

Santiako

Member
en_RfLLcp8FCz.png


That seems pretty strong. Cool way of protecting herself, too.

That's super cool.

So, after playing around with a Superfriends deck for a bit, I have to say I overlooked the flavor win on Oath of Liliana in that the Planeswalker-ETB effect is a "selfish" effect compared to the others, which are generally more designed for "teamwork" or at least neutral in their application.

Like, Oath of Nissa's secondary effect isn't that helpful for playing Nissa; if you're running an overgrown cantrip for 'G', you're probably hitting 1GG pretty consistently, anyway, and green already mana-fixes well. Oath of Gideon is kind of nice for Gideon, but really he can already swap out for his Emblem instantly and usually just wants to plus to become a beatstick nonstop anyway, so it's really better for PWs who are trying to ramp up to their ultimate or probably going to be burning minus abilities right out of the gate (Jace, Tamiyo, Chandra, etc.). Oath of Jace plays nicer with Jace, but the value of Scry does tend to diminish somewhat as you dig deeper and deeper (due to the chance of hitting a card you want and not needing to dig any further going up the deeper you dig), so the added effect is arguably better if you've got a non-Jace PW on the field. Oath of Chandra is the only one out of the original Oaths that really feels like it's tailored to actually using with Chandra in specific, and that's probably just because it's the Red-decked stepchild and no one in design loved it.

Oath of Liliana, though? A free zombie is okay if you're running it with other PWs, sure, but it only really does anything interesting if you're playing Liliana or her own themed cards (like Dark Salvation). More to the point, every other PW you throw down with her oath on the field makes Liliana's eventual ultimate potentially stronger; basically her oath is, "I'll loan you zombies, by which I mean I'll loan me zombies. In exchange, I expect more zombies."

Shame about the flavor text, though.

I think the flavour is that the zombies are protecting the planeswalkers, like in the story.
 

Hero

Member
en_RfLLcp8FCz.png


That seems pretty strong. Cool way of protecting herself, too.

I love it.

I had previously played around with the thought of a PW that didn't have any [+] abilities but never thought about the PW flickering itself to "reset" and effectively regain its countes.
 
I love it.

I had previously played around with the thought of a PW that didn't have any [+] abilities but never thought about the PW flickering itself to "reset" and effectively regain its countes.

Sarkhan already did that, just with no way to reset.

Was it charlequin but he was right with Orzhov. Most of her strength lies in her 0 imo the -2 seems a bit off colour.
 

bigkrev

Member
This is the first Planeswalker that if it showed up at Uncommon in Kaladesh, no one would blink. It's purely a multiplayer only card, which is kind of disappointing, because CN1 had Dack Fayden which was a smart way to print a new Planeswalker powerful enough for Legacy/Vintage without first having to put it into Standard/Modern

I feel like this should have been in a Commander deck instead of here, because I was excited to see another strongly pushed walker
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This is the first Planeswalker that if it showed up at Uncommon in Kaladesh, no one would blink. It's purely a multiplayer only card, which is kind of disappointing, because CN1 had Dack Fayden which was a smart way to print a new Planeswalker powerful enough for Legacy/Vintage without first having to put it into Standard/Modern

I feel like this should have been in a Commander deck instead of here, because I was excited to see another strongly pushed walker
Conspiracy is apparently the booster pack version of the Commander decks.

That said, I appreciate that they're trying new things with design but she isn't very good.
 
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