Truespeed
Member
Sony was breaking even on the PS3 way back in 2010.
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New interview with Cerny, goes into detail about PS4 hardware
- Thread starter phosphor112
- Start date
Sony was breaking even on the PS3 way back in 2010.
rykomatsu
Member
Hopefully not duplicating efforts....
Part 1:
Focusing on the positive aspects and Moving to the x86 Architecture
Cerney states that he started thinking about a next generation console in Fall 2007. SCE should have gone into basic R&D regarding next gen technologies soon after PS3s release and this falls in-line with when Cerney started investigating.
Cerney: I had started discussions regarding the next generation following PS3 in 2007. At that time, I was investigating what should be done for next generation [technologies]. It was at that time, I wondered if we couldnt use the x86 architecture for the next generation. I used then entirety of Thanksgiving weekend looking into this (lol). For Americans, this holiday is extremely important. But, thats how I sacrificed (lol) the holidays to think about the future and what possibilities this might bring for our organization.
After that, I went to Phil Harrison since he was at the top of the game development division. I was also introduced to Masayuki Chatani who was SCEs CTO at that time and was directing the next-gen project. What was surprising was that he said yes to me being involved with the next generation console.
By moving to the x86 architecture, this also means losing backwards compatibility with PS3. The basis of Cerneys vision was to use this x86 architecture. This is a huge tradeoff, but SCE accepted this vision.
Cerney: We struggled with this point. As a matter of fact, this was the major point I thought about during Thanksgiving. What to do with the current CPU and x86
We decided to focus on the positive aspects rising from switching to x86. X86 has instruction sets which are of significant importance for games. Multimedia instruction sets, specifically the existence of SSE 4.1 and 4.2. And of course, the existence of an APU gives us the ability to come close to the results obtained from the SPU.
The decision to move to x86 had an extremely complex set of requirements. Of course theres issues of backwards compatibility and issues from the vendors side as well. But that said, I believe the biggest topic for us was how much affinity the developers would have for this change. In the past 3 years, there have been a large number of refined tools and technologies released for the x86 architecture. If another architecture had been selected, it probably would have been even more problematic. The x86 architecture is well known and development is relatively easy.
Ito: Backwards compatibility, particularly in Japan, is something that is strongly brought frequently, so we thought long and hard about this. Realistically, to support backwards compatibility with PS3, the CELL Broadband Engine would have needed to been part of the new console. Currently, its not possible to simulate this via software. If CELL were the only requirement, that wouldnt have been much of an issue. We would also need to support the supporting hardware indefinitely. We can freely manufacture CELL if the decision is made that it is needed. However, thats not the case with supporting hardware. There are parts which will become difficult to obtain since 7 years is already considered to be long in the IT industry
Using this opportunity, we decided to stop going down this path, and as Mark said, to focus our efforts on simplifying developer efforts.
Essentially, SCEs thinking was that when considering focusing on sustaining and maintaining PS3 (and prior) hardware long-term, they also saw the need to transition to a more ordinary platform. It can be interpreted that x86 offered easier development opportunities and also provided for a way to get away from a proprietary track, leading to this decision.
Now, SCE hasnt come to a conclusion regarding the BC problem. Its said that use of Cloud long-term is part of their vision, but more accurately, SCE is evaluating various content in various forms including sustaining BC.
GPU Customization with use of GPGPU in Mind. Difference in Launch Title Numbers
Use of the x86 architecture also means externally, it becomes difficult to see the difference between PC development. How does Cerney think about how to showcase the difference and value of PS4?
Cerney: Our primary target is to provide a powerful system that developers are familiar with. It goes without saying an x86 CPU has high familiarity. From a power perspective, and providing new possibilities, it will become more important to realize technologies benefiting from a GPU. GPUs increase graphics performance and have been used in that manner traditionally. But, the computing capabilities of GPU will be harnessed in various areas in manners we cant even begin to think of now.
This essentially means, [PS4] will be a console that not only focuses on CPU performance, but also on GPU performance essentially a realization of a console using a GPGPU. In fact, at the PS4 press conference, a physics demo using the GPGPU was shown, and PS4 has an added value proposition of having a high performance GPGPU as a core feature set of the platform. For that purpose, the PS3 CPU and GPU has a few proprietary tricks up its sleeve.
Cerney: The GPGPU for us is a feature that is of utmost importance. For that purpose, weve customized the existing technologies in many ways.
Just as an example when the CPU and GPU exchange information in a generic PC, the CPU inputs information, and the GPU needs to read the information and clear the cache, initially. When returning the results, the GPU needs to clear the cache, then return the result to the CPU. Weve created a cache bypass. The GPU can return the result using this bypass directly. By using this design, we can send data directly from the main memory to the GPU shader core. Essentially, we can bypass the GPU L1 and L2 cache. Of course, this isnt just for data read, but also for write. Because of this, we have an extremely high bandwidth of 10GB/sec.
Also, weve also added a little tag to the L2 cache. We call this the VOLATILE tag. We are able to control data in the cache based on whether the data is marked with VOLATILE or not. If this tag is used, this data can be written directly to the memory. As a result, the entirety of the cache can be used efficiently for graphics processing.
This function allows for harmonization of graphics processing and computing, and allows for efficient function of both. Essentially Harmony in Japanese. Were trying to replicate the SPU Runtime System (SPURS) of the PS3 by heavily customizing the cache and bus. SPURS is designed to virtualize and independently manage SPU resources. For the PS4 hardware, the GPU can also be used in an analogous manner as x86-64 to use resources at various levels. This idea has 8 pipes and each pipe(?) has 8 computation queues. Each queue can execute things such as physics computation middle ware, and other prioprietarily designed workflows. This, while simultaneously handling graphics processing.
This type of functionality isnt used widely in the launch titles. However, I expect this to be used widely in many games throughout the life of the console and see this becoming an extremely important feature.
possibly to be continued...
Part 1:
Focusing on the positive aspects and Moving to the x86 Architecture
Cerney states that he started thinking about a next generation console in Fall 2007. SCE should have gone into basic R&D regarding next gen technologies soon after PS3s release and this falls in-line with when Cerney started investigating.
Cerney: I had started discussions regarding the next generation following PS3 in 2007. At that time, I was investigating what should be done for next generation [technologies]. It was at that time, I wondered if we couldnt use the x86 architecture for the next generation. I used then entirety of Thanksgiving weekend looking into this (lol). For Americans, this holiday is extremely important. But, thats how I sacrificed (lol) the holidays to think about the future and what possibilities this might bring for our organization.
After that, I went to Phil Harrison since he was at the top of the game development division. I was also introduced to Masayuki Chatani who was SCEs CTO at that time and was directing the next-gen project. What was surprising was that he said yes to me being involved with the next generation console.
By moving to the x86 architecture, this also means losing backwards compatibility with PS3. The basis of Cerneys vision was to use this x86 architecture. This is a huge tradeoff, but SCE accepted this vision.
Cerney: We struggled with this point. As a matter of fact, this was the major point I thought about during Thanksgiving. What to do with the current CPU and x86
We decided to focus on the positive aspects rising from switching to x86. X86 has instruction sets which are of significant importance for games. Multimedia instruction sets, specifically the existence of SSE 4.1 and 4.2. And of course, the existence of an APU gives us the ability to come close to the results obtained from the SPU.
The decision to move to x86 had an extremely complex set of requirements. Of course theres issues of backwards compatibility and issues from the vendors side as well. But that said, I believe the biggest topic for us was how much affinity the developers would have for this change. In the past 3 years, there have been a large number of refined tools and technologies released for the x86 architecture. If another architecture had been selected, it probably would have been even more problematic. The x86 architecture is well known and development is relatively easy.
Ito: Backwards compatibility, particularly in Japan, is something that is strongly brought frequently, so we thought long and hard about this. Realistically, to support backwards compatibility with PS3, the CELL Broadband Engine would have needed to been part of the new console. Currently, its not possible to simulate this via software. If CELL were the only requirement, that wouldnt have been much of an issue. We would also need to support the supporting hardware indefinitely. We can freely manufacture CELL if the decision is made that it is needed. However, thats not the case with supporting hardware. There are parts which will become difficult to obtain since 7 years is already considered to be long in the IT industry
Using this opportunity, we decided to stop going down this path, and as Mark said, to focus our efforts on simplifying developer efforts.
Essentially, SCEs thinking was that when considering focusing on sustaining and maintaining PS3 (and prior) hardware long-term, they also saw the need to transition to a more ordinary platform. It can be interpreted that x86 offered easier development opportunities and also provided for a way to get away from a proprietary track, leading to this decision.
Now, SCE hasnt come to a conclusion regarding the BC problem. Its said that use of Cloud long-term is part of their vision, but more accurately, SCE is evaluating various content in various forms including sustaining BC.
GPU Customization with use of GPGPU in Mind. Difference in Launch Title Numbers
Use of the x86 architecture also means externally, it becomes difficult to see the difference between PC development. How does Cerney think about how to showcase the difference and value of PS4?
Cerney: Our primary target is to provide a powerful system that developers are familiar with. It goes without saying an x86 CPU has high familiarity. From a power perspective, and providing new possibilities, it will become more important to realize technologies benefiting from a GPU. GPUs increase graphics performance and have been used in that manner traditionally. But, the computing capabilities of GPU will be harnessed in various areas in manners we cant even begin to think of now.
This essentially means, [PS4] will be a console that not only focuses on CPU performance, but also on GPU performance essentially a realization of a console using a GPGPU. In fact, at the PS4 press conference, a physics demo using the GPGPU was shown, and PS4 has an added value proposition of having a high performance GPGPU as a core feature set of the platform. For that purpose, the PS3 CPU and GPU has a few proprietary tricks up its sleeve.
Cerney: The GPGPU for us is a feature that is of utmost importance. For that purpose, weve customized the existing technologies in many ways.
Just as an example when the CPU and GPU exchange information in a generic PC, the CPU inputs information, and the GPU needs to read the information and clear the cache, initially. When returning the results, the GPU needs to clear the cache, then return the result to the CPU. Weve created a cache bypass. The GPU can return the result using this bypass directly. By using this design, we can send data directly from the main memory to the GPU shader core. Essentially, we can bypass the GPU L1 and L2 cache. Of course, this isnt just for data read, but also for write. Because of this, we have an extremely high bandwidth of 10GB/sec.
Also, weve also added a little tag to the L2 cache. We call this the VOLATILE tag. We are able to control data in the cache based on whether the data is marked with VOLATILE or not. If this tag is used, this data can be written directly to the memory. As a result, the entirety of the cache can be used efficiently for graphics processing.
This function allows for harmonization of graphics processing and computing, and allows for efficient function of both. Essentially Harmony in Japanese. Were trying to replicate the SPU Runtime System (SPURS) of the PS3 by heavily customizing the cache and bus. SPURS is designed to virtualize and independently manage SPU resources. For the PS4 hardware, the GPU can also be used in an analogous manner as x86-64 to use resources at various levels. This idea has 8 pipes and each pipe(?) has 8 computation queues. Each queue can execute things such as physics computation middle ware, and other prioprietarily designed workflows. This, while simultaneously handling graphics processing.
This type of functionality isnt used widely in the launch titles. However, I expect this to be used widely in many games throughout the life of the console and see this becoming an extremely important feature.
possibly to be continued...
I don't think you are. Really appreciate it.
Keep'em coming dude...
Saberus
Member
Very nice, thanks dude..
rykomatsu
Member
Note: I took out most of the commentary....
Part 2
GPU Customization with use of GPGPU in Mind. Difference in Launch Title Numbers (contd)
Cerney: In the next few years, well also be supporting a different approach
We have our own shader APIs, but in the future, well provide functions which will allow deeper access to the hardware level and it will be possible to directly control hardware using the shader APIs. As a mid-term target, in addition to common PC APIs such as OpenGL and DirectX, well provide full access to our hardware.
Regarding the CPU, we can use well known hardware, and regarding the GPU, as developers devote time to it, new possibilities which werent possible before will open up.
The properties of CPU and GPU are quite difference, so in the current stage, if you were to use an unified architecture such as HSA, it will be difficult to efficiently use the CPU and GPU. However, once the CPU and GPU are able to use the same APIs, development efficiency should increase exponentially. This will be rather huge. Thus, we expect to see this as somewhat of a long-term goal.
Regarding easier development, talking about the action game KNACK
Cerney: Ive spoken with a lot of developers, but most of the developers are saying that creating a game is considerably easier.
Working on a game myself, I feel that is true. KNACK is still in development, but the PS4, compared to the PS3, really makes game development easy.
This will also lead to the main difference with the PS3 era. The main difference is, we will have many titles for launch. Because game development is easier, there shouldnt be a barrier as there had been previously. PS3 had the image that it was difficult to develop for. Even the PS2 wasnt that easy. PS4 has a PC CPU and a GPU thats been enhanced from a PC so the game lineup should become very rich.
The most important difference is, it wont take as much technical training, so developers can focus more on the game-play aspects. Thats ideal isnt it? As a result, [gamers] should a world with a richer gaming experience.
Regarding 4KTV, he is a little passive
Cerney: hm (lol). Personally, Im very interested in 4K
Were still in the initial stages of supporting 4Kx2K in games. Our focus is to provide for a solid FullHD experience. We can secure the display buffer for Game and OS separately, and can provide for independent scaling of both as well. (Regarding 4K) We can provide an extremely smooth user interface.
If we consider purely memory bandwidth, with 4K, securing 2 displays worth of display buffer requires 10GB/sec. That just for simply displaying.
This is our simple answer for why were focusing on just the FullHD experience.
PS4 will read CDs, but will not play back audio CD music.
Realizing Energy Efficiency and Smoothness using a Second Custom Chip with Embedded CPU
Cerny: The second custom chip is essentially the Southbridge. However, this also has an embedded CPU. This will always be powered, and even when the PS4 is powered off, it is monitoring all IO systems. The embedded CPU and Southbridge manages download processes and all HDD access. Of course, even with the power off.
Ito: The second custom chip also takes into consideration environmental problems. For background downloading, if the main CPU needs to be started every time, energy consumption increases significantly, so we run this with the second chip. Particularly in Europe, there are strict energy consumption regulations, so handling consumption in this manner is also one of our goals.
Cerney: Theres also network bandwidth considerations. Background downloading allows for smooth downloading of large files even when bandwidth is limited.
More importantly, this helps reduce the time required until a game can be played. Simultaneously, this also allows for decreased initial downloads. Only the first few GB are downloaded during the initial play session and while the game is being played, the remaining portions will be downloaded. Of course, even with the power off, the remaining download will continue. So, the primary goal is to decrease the amount of download time before initial play.
Cerney: The data is logically divided into a few chunks, and uploaded [to the server by the dev?] with a specially annotated script. Further, based on how the script is written, additional customization is possible. For example, downloading of single player portion or multiplayer portion first Related to this system memory has increased by 16x since PS3, but the BD drive transfer speed has only increased a few fold. Because of this, using a similar technique, its possible to copy just the important parts from the BD to the HDD and start the game. By doing this, its possible to load directly more smoothly from the faster HDD. Of course, its possible to stream the data from a ginormous BD and play a game as well.
Part 2
GPU Customization with use of GPGPU in Mind. Difference in Launch Title Numbers (contd)
Cerney: In the next few years, well also be supporting a different approach
We have our own shader APIs, but in the future, well provide functions which will allow deeper access to the hardware level and it will be possible to directly control hardware using the shader APIs. As a mid-term target, in addition to common PC APIs such as OpenGL and DirectX, well provide full access to our hardware.
Regarding the CPU, we can use well known hardware, and regarding the GPU, as developers devote time to it, new possibilities which werent possible before will open up.
The properties of CPU and GPU are quite difference, so in the current stage, if you were to use an unified architecture such as HSA, it will be difficult to efficiently use the CPU and GPU. However, once the CPU and GPU are able to use the same APIs, development efficiency should increase exponentially. This will be rather huge. Thus, we expect to see this as somewhat of a long-term goal.
Regarding easier development, talking about the action game KNACK
Cerney: Ive spoken with a lot of developers, but most of the developers are saying that creating a game is considerably easier.
Working on a game myself, I feel that is true. KNACK is still in development, but the PS4, compared to the PS3, really makes game development easy.
This will also lead to the main difference with the PS3 era. The main difference is, we will have many titles for launch. Because game development is easier, there shouldnt be a barrier as there had been previously. PS3 had the image that it was difficult to develop for. Even the PS2 wasnt that easy. PS4 has a PC CPU and a GPU thats been enhanced from a PC so the game lineup should become very rich.
The most important difference is, it wont take as much technical training, so developers can focus more on the game-play aspects. Thats ideal isnt it? As a result, [gamers] should a world with a richer gaming experience.
Regarding 4KTV, he is a little passive
Cerney: hm (lol). Personally, Im very interested in 4K
Were still in the initial stages of supporting 4Kx2K in games. Our focus is to provide for a solid FullHD experience. We can secure the display buffer for Game and OS separately, and can provide for independent scaling of both as well. (Regarding 4K) We can provide an extremely smooth user interface.
If we consider purely memory bandwidth, with 4K, securing 2 displays worth of display buffer requires 10GB/sec. That just for simply displaying.
This is our simple answer for why were focusing on just the FullHD experience.
PS4 will read CDs, but will not play back audio CD music.
Realizing Energy Efficiency and Smoothness using a Second Custom Chip with Embedded CPU
Cerny: The second custom chip is essentially the Southbridge. However, this also has an embedded CPU. This will always be powered, and even when the PS4 is powered off, it is monitoring all IO systems. The embedded CPU and Southbridge manages download processes and all HDD access. Of course, even with the power off.
Ito: The second custom chip also takes into consideration environmental problems. For background downloading, if the main CPU needs to be started every time, energy consumption increases significantly, so we run this with the second chip. Particularly in Europe, there are strict energy consumption regulations, so handling consumption in this manner is also one of our goals.
Cerney: Theres also network bandwidth considerations. Background downloading allows for smooth downloading of large files even when bandwidth is limited.
More importantly, this helps reduce the time required until a game can be played. Simultaneously, this also allows for decreased initial downloads. Only the first few GB are downloaded during the initial play session and while the game is being played, the remaining portions will be downloaded. Of course, even with the power off, the remaining download will continue. So, the primary goal is to decrease the amount of download time before initial play.
Cerney: The data is logically divided into a few chunks, and uploaded [to the server by the dev?] with a specially annotated script. Further, based on how the script is written, additional customization is possible. For example, downloading of single player portion or multiplayer portion first Related to this system memory has increased by 16x since PS3, but the BD drive transfer speed has only increased a few fold. Because of this, using a similar technique, its possible to copy just the important parts from the BD to the HDD and start the game. By doing this, its possible to load directly more smoothly from the faster HDD. Of course, its possible to stream the data from a ginormous BD and play a game as well.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Thanks rykomatsu good read so far , the GPU Customization is interesting .
Along with having another chip to help out with OS stuff .
EDIT maybe someone should make a new thread since we a translation .
Along with having another chip to help out with OS stuff .
EDIT maybe someone should make a new thread since we a translation .
rykomatsu
Member
Note:Commentary removed again...getting late so sorry for typos
Part 3 (last one)
Built-In Video Encoder for Video Sharing and Vita Remote-Play
Cerney: The PS4 has a dedicated encoder for video sharing and such. There are a few dedicated encoder and decoder functions which are available and use the APU minimally. This is also used for playback of compressed in-game audio in MP3 and audio chat.
When the system is fully on, the x86 CPU core controls the video sharing system. However the Southbridge has features to assist with network traffic control.
Cerny: While investigating the initial hardware design, we had been thinking about what aspects will become important in the future. All hardware components have been prepared with enveloping the gamer with a realizing a wonderful user experience.
Our team thought deeply of the concept of computer entertainment. People from other Sony groups participated and we investigated this from many different angles. Since we are the game people, we have UI specialists, and Richard Marcks(sp?) (father of SCEs Natural UI design)was involved as well. This multi-facetted team spent a few weeks discussing how amazing of a user-experience we could realize.
So, how does this affect games?
Ito: For example, even without a PS4, this time, we can use the PlayStation App to see game details (content?). Even without a PS4, you would be able to experience man, this game looks fun or this game might be pretty good. And with this, it is our hopes that the allure of the PS4 will be evident.
Of course, if a gamer shares images on Facebook, you can see this from Facebook without the PlayStation App.
Regarding Vita Remote-Play
Cerney: Vita Remote Play is special.
Smartphones and Tablets are used to see game information regarding the PS4 in various places, experienced in various places. In addition to this, this type of content can be seen on the PC as well using a web platform.
PS4 has video encoding hardware, and this is used with Video [Miracast?-type] feature. Vitas control inputs are sent to the PS3, and using these functionalities, with minimal overhead and no pain, it becomes possible to remotely play PS4 games. Atleast, this is what were aiming for, and compared to the PS3 era, were aiming for a significantly wider support of remote play. Of course, this function applies to games using Dualshock. Games that use the camera (such as PS Move and PS4 location recognition) cannot utilize remoteplay.
Leaving that aside, Vitas remote play was developed to provide as close to perfect PS4 gameplay within a household as possible. This requires connection to a Wifi network and should be used in a low latency environment. The thinking here is also that even if someone else is using the TV, you can continue playing PS4 games.
Use of Real Names for Gaming without Walls, Use of a BSD base for a Rich OS Layer
Cerney: Were investigating using the network to switch control between players. Just keep in mind, this doesnt mean these types of features will all be present on Day 1. Please understand that were preparing and investigating these as features supportable on the platform.
Either which way, use of social interactions to stimulate gameplay should become a huge weapon in our arsenal.
Just my image of things but think of it like being in a living room. When youre playing a game with your friends, theres no physical wall to prevent interaction. Its kind of like having hundreds of friends gaming with you nearby, but this feeling while youre sitting at the end of a network. We want to act as the facilitators to enable this; to enable the feeling of actually meeting and enjoying gaming with your real world friends around the world. Over the course of a few years, well support all the features required to support and achieve this goal.
For this purpose, PS4s OS layer is very rich compared to PS3 or Vita
Cerney: The OS is based on BSD. I believe this is the first game console using this architecture.
From the OS side, the PS4 will allow use of many multiple features simultaneously. Our goal is something like the following:
Send a video of the game youre playing, and return to the game immediately to continue playing. Then, watch a game play video from your friend, then switch to video chat with that friend right away. If you see interesting DLC that your friend has, move to the store, then be able to ask your friend if its the right one.
In this manner, we envision it to be possible to come-and-go between and use many features. Even for multi-player games, you would be able to move the game to the background without quitting, and go through a similar routine.
The facilitation by the OS will allow for a rich set of actions.
Regarding the real name policy
Cerney: The concept of aliases for online games is the current paradigm. For example, in a multiplayer deathmatch, its better to have an alias, right? However, when coop aspects or communications leveraging social interactions are brought into the game, its better not to have an alias. For example, lets say you gift an item you earn in a game to a friend. That type of interaction should evoke a completely different feeling than when youre playing the game.
Of course, we respect the desire to use an alias for game play as well. We support that type of gaming too. Having a deathmatch using aliases is possible on the PS4 as well. But at the same time, we want to support aspects which increase the fun of gaming with real world friends. For example, wouldnt it be wonderful to meet a college friend you havent seen in ages?
Cheers
Part 3 (last one)
Built-In Video Encoder for Video Sharing and Vita Remote-Play
Cerney: The PS4 has a dedicated encoder for video sharing and such. There are a few dedicated encoder and decoder functions which are available and use the APU minimally. This is also used for playback of compressed in-game audio in MP3 and audio chat.
When the system is fully on, the x86 CPU core controls the video sharing system. However the Southbridge has features to assist with network traffic control.
Cerny: While investigating the initial hardware design, we had been thinking about what aspects will become important in the future. All hardware components have been prepared with enveloping the gamer with a realizing a wonderful user experience.
Our team thought deeply of the concept of computer entertainment. People from other Sony groups participated and we investigated this from many different angles. Since we are the game people, we have UI specialists, and Richard Marcks(sp?) (father of SCEs Natural UI design)was involved as well. This multi-facetted team spent a few weeks discussing how amazing of a user-experience we could realize.
So, how does this affect games?
Ito: For example, even without a PS4, this time, we can use the PlayStation App to see game details (content?). Even without a PS4, you would be able to experience man, this game looks fun or this game might be pretty good. And with this, it is our hopes that the allure of the PS4 will be evident.
Of course, if a gamer shares images on Facebook, you can see this from Facebook without the PlayStation App.
Regarding Vita Remote-Play
Cerney: Vita Remote Play is special.
Smartphones and Tablets are used to see game information regarding the PS4 in various places, experienced in various places. In addition to this, this type of content can be seen on the PC as well using a web platform.
PS4 has video encoding hardware, and this is used with Video [Miracast?-type] feature. Vitas control inputs are sent to the PS3, and using these functionalities, with minimal overhead and no pain, it becomes possible to remotely play PS4 games. Atleast, this is what were aiming for, and compared to the PS3 era, were aiming for a significantly wider support of remote play. Of course, this function applies to games using Dualshock. Games that use the camera (such as PS Move and PS4 location recognition) cannot utilize remoteplay.
Leaving that aside, Vitas remote play was developed to provide as close to perfect PS4 gameplay within a household as possible. This requires connection to a Wifi network and should be used in a low latency environment. The thinking here is also that even if someone else is using the TV, you can continue playing PS4 games.
Use of Real Names for Gaming without Walls, Use of a BSD base for a Rich OS Layer
Cerney: Were investigating using the network to switch control between players. Just keep in mind, this doesnt mean these types of features will all be present on Day 1. Please understand that were preparing and investigating these as features supportable on the platform.
Either which way, use of social interactions to stimulate gameplay should become a huge weapon in our arsenal.
Just my image of things but think of it like being in a living room. When youre playing a game with your friends, theres no physical wall to prevent interaction. Its kind of like having hundreds of friends gaming with you nearby, but this feeling while youre sitting at the end of a network. We want to act as the facilitators to enable this; to enable the feeling of actually meeting and enjoying gaming with your real world friends around the world. Over the course of a few years, well support all the features required to support and achieve this goal.
For this purpose, PS4s OS layer is very rich compared to PS3 or Vita
Cerney: The OS is based on BSD. I believe this is the first game console using this architecture.
From the OS side, the PS4 will allow use of many multiple features simultaneously. Our goal is something like the following:
Send a video of the game youre playing, and return to the game immediately to continue playing. Then, watch a game play video from your friend, then switch to video chat with that friend right away. If you see interesting DLC that your friend has, move to the store, then be able to ask your friend if its the right one.
In this manner, we envision it to be possible to come-and-go between and use many features. Even for multi-player games, you would be able to move the game to the background without quitting, and go through a similar routine.
The facilitation by the OS will allow for a rich set of actions.
Regarding the real name policy
Cerney: The concept of aliases for online games is the current paradigm. For example, in a multiplayer deathmatch, its better to have an alias, right? However, when coop aspects or communications leveraging social interactions are brought into the game, its better not to have an alias. For example, lets say you gift an item you earn in a game to a friend. That type of interaction should evoke a completely different feeling than when youre playing the game.
Of course, we respect the desire to use an alias for game play as well. We support that type of gaming too. Having a deathmatch using aliases is possible on the PS4 as well. But at the same time, we want to support aspects which increase the fun of gaming with real world friends. For example, wouldnt it be wonderful to meet a college friend you havent seen in ages?
Cheers
It's good to see a developer at the head of SCEI's hardware engineering. I always wonder if Kutaragi would still be in charge had the PS3 been more successful, what would his interpretation of a PS4 be?. I guessed most people already sensed his vision for Sony falling out of sync with the general trend in computing.
Would he have insisted on creating a 16-Core Super Cell while ignoring developer complaints?
Would he have insisted on creating a 16-Core Super Cell while ignoring developer complaints?
Omnistalgic
Member
Great stuff..tks for posting! Need to hurry and finish my PS3 backlog so I'mr ready for Fall 2013...here's another PS4 tech article btw, I'm sure it's posted up in other places, but shouldn't hurt.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-inside-playstation-4
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-inside-playstation-4
Betrayer of hope
Banned
My beautiful 60gb playstation 3 has recently died. It was the most superior of all ps3s. Not only did it have the extra usb ports and memory card readers. But it also had the power to play all three playstation generations natively. At the moment i am forced to fix it and maintain just to have access to my current playstation library.
Imagine being told in 2006 that the ps4 wouldnt be able to play not just the ps3 games but all playstation games dating back to 1996. People would call you mad. But that's what happened to the ps4. A truly first for sony. A company who already cut off a majority of its' fanbase last gen by introducing non BC consoles has now take one step further by making all ps games redundant on the ps4 natively. It just doesnt matter what type of game you insert. If it aint a ps4 game then it wouldnt work.When the playstation 4 hits it will be the first sony console not to play even playstation 1 games natively. By that i mean insert a ps1 and it simply wouldnt play.
But that's even the most weirdest aspect. Sony a pioneer and creator of the CD format has made audio cd redundant on their console. Unbelievable when you think about it.
This is how sony goes about their buisness these days. Spitting on their own consumers and fanbase. But the damage is just not from a consumer point of view. It's also an engineering and design loss. Sony has nothing of their own in the ps4 apart from blu ray. Which by the way was developed way back. Ken must crying inside when he sees sony these days. where once sony went alone in desiging and manufacturing their own chips it's now reduced to completely outsourcing their flagship console.
Sony is no longer run by visionaries at tokyo. Its sad but its the truth.
Imagine being told in 2006 that the ps4 wouldnt be able to play not just the ps3 games but all playstation games dating back to 1996. People would call you mad. But that's what happened to the ps4. A truly first for sony. A company who already cut off a majority of its' fanbase last gen by introducing non BC consoles has now take one step further by making all ps games redundant on the ps4 natively. It just doesnt matter what type of game you insert. If it aint a ps4 game then it wouldnt work.When the playstation 4 hits it will be the first sony console not to play even playstation 1 games natively. By that i mean insert a ps1 and it simply wouldnt play.
But that's even the most weirdest aspect. Sony a pioneer and creator of the CD format has made audio cd redundant on their console. Unbelievable when you think about it.
This is how sony goes about their buisness these days. Spitting on their own consumers and fanbase. But the damage is just not from a consumer point of view. It's also an engineering and design loss. Sony has nothing of their own in the ps4 apart from blu ray. Which by the way was developed way back. Ken must crying inside when he sees sony these days. where once sony went alone in desiging and manufacturing their own chips it's now reduced to completely outsourcing their flagship console.
Sony is no longer run by visionaries at tokyo. Its sad but its the truth.
Iacobellis
Junior Member
What if I told you Samsung makes the SoC for iDevices.
Great work rykomatsu, your translation really shines the light on the most detailed interview I've seen yet of the PS4. I do have a question though.
That seems a bit random in a lot of ways, is there any more context to that bit of commentary? I'm assuming it'll just rip any music CDs inserted into the system, as that makes the most sense for the console. On a side note...
So what is the PS4 going to do with its ability to read CDs but not play audio CDs if not play PS1 games? Turbografix CD support? Saturn emulator built-in? Old Windows 95 games? Linux boot disc?
That's interesting, Sony has disclosed the use of Free BSD and Net BSD in the PS3 and Vita, but they didn't do so until late in the system's lifespan. I wonder if Cerney's hedging because the lack of disclosure was technically in violation of the BSD license, or the BSD components were late additions and Sony really was using a custom OS? Of course, if it's a custom OS it's most likely an AIX variant written by IBM, so it's no wonder it looks so much like a BSD.
So any bets on what Sony doesn't have fabrication rights to? My guess is the XDR memory.
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
So cerny took out BC O______O burn him.
eddfromtheriver
Banned
I'm sure we'll get pristine HD collections on the PS4 as well, and that is better IMO, you will have to pay once again, but i'll gladly do that if it means playing trough this gens masterpieces (Uncharted, Killzone, Ratchet and Clank, God of War) without any visual blemishes ruining their beauty.
It's only used for the TCP/IP implementation on the PS3 and Vita I believe (just how Windows uses it).
neverknowsbest
Member
LOL, such grandiose words for self-centered whinging about the loss of backwards compatibility. BC is gone. It's a business decision. Get over it and buy a backup PS3 when they hit $100. It'll cost you less than the premium you would have had to pay for BC in the PS4.
I'm amazed at how many people are getting emotional about this. It's not exactly a life-threatening problem.
painful fart
Member
Yes, I was wondering if the efforts to make the GPGPU mimic SPURS is there to simplify ports from the PS3.
H_Prestige
Banned
I'd rather have this since Dark Souls and Demon's Souls are the only two ps3 games I play. Just need those two and Dark Souls 2 to be ported to ps4 and I can sell the ps3 and all its games to fund the ps4.
Do it Sony. Port that shit.
BradleyLove
Member
Not bored of trolling PS4 I see.
Please point out where anything other than no PS3 BC has been stated?
They will just port the PC version of Dark Souls over, and make Demon's Souls 2.
But.... will they also port its DX injectors?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Good catches but I think you missed this; Is Cerny letting slip that the PS3 will be discontinued? If the hardware is there for a PS3 it must be there for inclusion as BC in the PS4. Does his statement at a minimum mean no further refreshes and the PS3 4000 using chips with the same node sizes but packaged more efficiently confirms this.
Next year California will have regulated power levels for modes on NEW or refreshed game consoles. That may kill the PS3 unless it does something that Microsoft is doing.
Xbox 360 @ $99 and supports Win RT.
It's a point I have brought up many times (using more modern hardware to reduce the power used) but I assumed PPC or 2 MPA version of a 1PPU3SPU CPU package used with a AMD Temesh rather than ARM. ARM Trustzone support may explain the choice to go ARM rather than AMD Temesh. With XTV support the system is going to be OPEN as target data in the IPTV stream can point to a website to run javascript code or the stream can contain NRT Java code that is to be run by the system. This can create security issues.
HollovVpo1nt
Banned
I hope they deliver where Microsoft failed and offer some good connectivity between Xperia smartphones and PlayStation.
Has it actually ever been confirmed that PS1 and PS2 games won't run on the PS4? I mean if PS3 can emulate PS1 disc-based games and PS2 iso dumps digital copies it seems like a no brainer that PS4 will be able to at least play PS1 and PS2 digital games, I wouldn't even put it past them to emulate PS1 and PS2 discs. They only said that PS4 will not play PS3 games natively.
Omnistalgic
Member
This is exactly correct...
but complainers will complain, and exaggerate while doing so...
PS4=PC architecture. Most games start on PC's. PS4 will get plenty of ports and will likely start churning out games at a much faster rate than PS3. B/C will be a non-issue especially with another PS3 price-drop. And it's very reasonable for Sony to emulate PS1/PS2 games natively.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
If remote play is as responsive and as simple as it sounds, I might as well pick up a Vita.
If you have been a PSN+ subscriber you should already have stacked up a collection of Vita ges by now. If you ain't a PSN+ subscriber yet, what the hell are you doing.
Anyway, even though Vita has not been a commercial success. Sony had made it worth it for me, even more so than 3DS. Thanks to PSN+ and the announcement of Remote play.
If Sony's going to stick to their usual ten-year plan, they only have to keep cranking out PS3s for three more years after the PS4 launch. Sony's engineers have been busy with the PS4, but if they decide the effort required to shrink the PS3 further isn't worth it we might end up with a situation where the PS4 drops in price faster than the PS3.
Not even close to confirmed. The rumor was based off a tweet that the PS4 wouldn't read CDs, but as this article clarifies, the PS4 won't play back audio CDs, but can read CDs. Like I said above, what's the PS4 going to do with its CD reading ability other than run PS1 games (and possibly ripping audio CDs)? Yoshida even said in an interview that it would very easy for them to allow local emulation of PS1 games, but he didn't want to go into their emulation plans yet, preferring to keep the conversation on future Gaikai possibilities.
Dragon1893
Member
They really seem to have costumized the hardware in a way that makes the whole more than the sum of its parts.
I'm curious to see just how far this setup can be pushed.
I'm curious to see just how far this setup can be pushed.
test_account
XP-39C²
It would be fully possible to ensure full PS1, PS2 and PS3 backward compability in the PS4 from a technical standpoint, but we got to look at why it isnt happening. Look at the early PS3, a pricetag of $599, a price that did a major beating the the Playstation brand. No offence to Ken Kutaragi, he is a great guy and he have made some amazing stuff indeed, but there is no denying that the PS3 pricetag cost Sony a lot of money. I think it is natural that Sony dont want to repeat this.
Not including audio CD playback is not unbelieveable if we look for the reason for it. If having audio CD playback cost money due to licensing, it makes sense why they dont want to include it, concidering how few that will actually use it on the PS4. Its like the Wii, it can actually read DVDs if you have the Wii, but since Nintendo didnt pay for the DVD license, then the Wii cant officially read DVD discs. Even if the license fee pr. system is quite small, it adds up to a noticeably amount of money when you multiply that number with tens of millions of units.
We also dont know for sure if native PS1 games wont work. I kinda doubt that it will, but we dont know for sure at this point.
Because a company wont give you the convenience of backward compability due to legit reasons (production costs), then they are spitting on their consumers? I never understood attitudes like this, sorry. I understand that people want backward compability, no problem about that, but i dont understand why people are making it out like the companies are doing it out of spite or to be mean, or something in that area. No problem about showing anger for not including backward compability either, but i would at least try to see reasons why it isnt included. In the case of the PS4, the reasons are understandable, in my opinion.
The biggest problem with backward compability is when working with custom stuff. This means that if you're going to do some bigger changes for future products, this can be difficult. It isnt always easy to look 10 year ahead in time and see what will happen, especially not with technology concidering how rapidly it is evolving. I'm curious how Nintendo will solve the dual screen issue with their next handheld system, unless they go with a dual screen setup for the 3rd time, but i'm not sure if Nintendo will do that. Maybe if they include one large screen, then it could be possible to make it show two seperate pictures.
About outsourcing, for the PS3, IBM made the Cell CPU and Nvidia made the RSX GPU. Is this much difference from the PS4? Honest question. And what advantage is there to use fully custom chips? It seems to me that the whole idea for designing the PS4 like it is being designed is to make it easier to develope for.
It also seems that switching to the X86 architecture is an attempt to make backward compability in the future more easy. However, as i mentioned above here, it is very hard to say how the technology has evolved in about 10 years from now.
That's what I thought. So pretty much PS1 and PS2 emulation is still on the cards. Hell if Sony went into the trouble of starting PS2 classics last year on the PSN and to update Vita to include a PS1 emulator it seems pretty clear that they must at least be thinking about PS1 and PS2 BC. They actually got a lot of shit for taking so long with the Vita PS1 emulator so even if it wasn't planned from the onset for PS4 I very much doubt there isn't someone at Sony right now working on a software emulation for PS1 and PS2 which the PS4 can easily handle, by the way.
I remember we didn't find out about Vita's PS1 emulation till a Vita FAQ so it might be the same here.
Eurogamer mentioned in the 12GB PS3 Super Slim review that cell is going to be shrunk to 22nm this year. I would assume the same chasis will be used with a much smaller motherboard using the smaller Cell (I wonder if RSX is gonna get shrunk too?) and a price cut to 150 and eventually 120 euro will be made.
As far as I know Debug is done through Win 7, but to answer your question no. He was simply using an example of what type of APIs will they supply to the devs.
legacyzero
Banned
Cerny may just be my favorite guy next gen.
also GIMME DAT REMOTE PLAY!
also GIMME DAT REMOTE PLAY!
Omnistalgic
Member
Yo..remote play is gonna be official! People cant even recognize the potential...
It's like the WiiU but actually comfortable and with 3rd party games!
"oooooooohhhhh no he didn't!!!"
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I'm pretty excited for what jrpgs will be like this gen. This gen might be the one where jrpgs make a big comeback. Not like they went anywhere on the 360/ps3/wii, but I just don't feel as if there were as many there could have been.
I see the potential for a lot of lag, and disappointment.
Truespeed
Member
LOL, he was just listing graphic API's as an example. PS4 has a Unix based BSD kernel with OpenGL and libGCM as its primary graphic API's.
Having played the GoW on my Vita through Remote Play I can safely say that no lag was noticable. And this is based off an ad-hoc software solution as opposed to hardware and OS function that will be fully integrated on the PS4.
Same. There's no way of getting around inadequate internet speed and high ping.
hmmm...i don't think so (for ps2)
if ps4 is really so easy to develop maybe we won't have to wait 2 years for those jrpgs. i hope