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'Condoms don't belong in school, and neither does Al Gore'
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Oh yeah, and here in California we had a small presentation on it in 5th grade (I didn't get anything out of it.), a sex ed unit in 8th grade which lasted for about a month, and then a 2 month unit in Health class in 9th grade. The health class pretty much had all bases covered, and I'm glad it was required.Dan said:
So you're saying we raise a whole new litter of ignorant people who get STDs before they know about safe sex? MORAN! *Blocks*PhoenixDark said:
Here in Sweden sex ed is mandatory and no one says a word about it, even though we technically all share the same religion. Anyone care to find out what's that meant to STDs here in Sweden? You guys just put too much power into the whole religion thing, school should be about science and religious free education, nothing else.
Of all the things that inform kids about whether sex is permissable or not, schools / "the fuzz" have to be among the least influential. The latest Snoop Dogg album probably has more to do with it.Slurpy said:
It's not worth risking pregnancy/HIV to restrict codom access so you can make a point about how improper sex is. You conservatives are so black and white about everything. Well, welcome to real life. Sex in middle school is happening whether you like it or not. You can affect these kids' morals in ways other than letting them tread a ****ing highwire. Education is a start. But just because it "shouldn't be happening" doesn't mean it isn't and shouldn't be dealt with.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Mute said:
Parents should know what's best for their chilren and act accordingly. They should be able to sit their kids down and explain things to them if they want. That doesn't mean they have to give them a run down of every STD. Telling them about the hazards of unsafe sex and the consequences should be enough. And of course the best ways to avoid those problems is condoms or abstinence. I don't know what all parents tell their kids about sex, and I can only go off what my religious ones told me ("condoms yeah...but don't have sex until you're married") lol
Hmm, that almost sounds like a LESSON, GASP! It's in the governments best interest to keep it's citizens alive and well, and that includes mandatory teachings about STDs and how they spread. Be it when they're 13 like here in Sweden or 18 they have a right to know, because their parents sure as hell aren't gonna sit down and talk to them about it, because they're as ignorant as they are.PhoenixDark said:
PhoenixDark
Banned
Mute said:
Some parents are like that and I fail to see while allowing them to teach their own freaking kids what they want is a big deal.
There are millions of kids in this country who won't use condoms no matter what - they simply don't care. That's not going to change no matter how much sex education you have, and a small percent of parents deciding to teach their own kids is not going to inflate that number.
Hear hear. Just look at the statistics of when people first have sex. It's what, 50% at the age of 15-16? Doesn't these kids have a right to be taught about STDs and condoms Before that? What the hell is your government thinking? Also, this is from that 'Bullshit!' show, but haven't government and religion separated since long now? Why are you still teaching abstinence, a highly religious way of thinking, to the kids? Here, outside religion, in real life, sex is accepted at around the age of 16, that's the fact.Mute said:
I'm so sick of all this shit about putting parents' feelings first. Whether it's sex ed, religion, evolution, global warming, etc, the protests are all made for the sake of the parents. The parents feel uncomfortable with, you know, INFORMATION. The self-interests of parents is not inherently in the best interests of children. All of these arguments by fundies only serve to prevent children from inhabiting REALITY.PhoenixDark said:
Then there should be a class that's semi-mandatory. It's right up there with math and science, but the parents have to approve of it before their kids are sent off to it. At this point I think the parents have way too much control over what their kids are being thaught, and this is the only solution.PhoenixDark said:
There are no words............. there are no ****ing words.............PhoenixDark said:
They can.PhoenixDark said:
At home.
No one is stopping parents from pushing their archaic reality-deprived beliefs onto their kids in the comfort of their own home. Unfortunately for them, the majority of the country has deemed certain things important to teach in the country's schools in order for those children to become productive, informed and healthy members of society.
If that's too difficult, homeschooling is still legal.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Dan said:
Last time I checked it's a parent's duty to protect their children's best interests - not a group of people on a messageboard. If a parent feels they want to teach their kids about sex ed I'm certainly not going to knock that decision, and I'm in no position to do so.
Dan said:
So I'm a fundie now? Damn I didn't see this one coming
I'm going with, "Please don't have sex until you're older, here's why, and here's why I don't think sex outside a meaningful, longterm relationship is very healthy or responsible behavior. If you decide to ignore this advice, and I realize that you as a teenager in your infinite wisdom know everything, and I as an adult know nothing and could never understand, but nevertheless, please don't be stupid - always use a condom until you're married. You're smart enough to fit a rubber circle on a banana without a demo. I also hope you're smart enough to wait until you're mature enough to handle the real world consequences of when that rubber circle fails to do its job."
There you go. The *sex talk.* No hellfire and brimstone, no lengthy discussion about how much fun having genital warts can be, just simple, honest, parental advice.
Now, while I do not want my personal morality legislated or forced onto other children, I also do not want my efforts undermined and in its stead to have stupid behavior empowered and endorsed by an assistant football coach / bus driver / health teacher - in this instance an agent of the state, no less.
There you go. The *sex talk.* No hellfire and brimstone, no lengthy discussion about how much fun having genital warts can be, just simple, honest, parental advice.
Now, while I do not want my personal morality legislated or forced onto other children, I also do not want my efforts undermined and in its stead to have stupid behavior empowered and endorsed by an assistant football coach / bus driver / health teacher - in this instance an agent of the state, no less.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I agree 100%JayDubya said:
Why this is considered some dangerous, radical viewpoint is beyond me.
The availability of condoms is not age-restricted in any case, therefore your efforts have already been undermined by THE INVISIBLE HAND, which demands that 12 year olds are allowed to buy condoms just like everyone else. That being the case, it isn't necessary to subsidize the condoms that are made available at schools (25-cent vending machines ring a bell?), nor should the existence of them in the child's life be taken as carte blanche to get all up in a bitch. That's what your teachings are for. The condoms are for safety, security, assurance, whatever. Maybe your kid will have enough guidance and street smarts to never need condoms. I didn't buy any until I had a girlfriend who wanted to have sex. The point is: will these kids' parents all be there for them when that time comes for their kids? If not, a little latex babysitter might be a good ****ing idea. (No pun intended).JayDubya said:
PhoenixDark
Banned
terrene said:
And they can easily get condoms in the local gas station bathroom for 25 cents.
SaggyMonkey
Member
Can you also get Al Gore in a gas station bathroom for 25 cents?
terrene said:
Im the farthest thing from a conservative, but ok. You go around handing condoms in junior high, even kids who never even considered the possibility of sex at this point would say 'gee, my damn school is handing out condoms, I guess sex must be perfectly normal at this age.' I just think there are limits to what you're willing to actively encourage and accommodate, and passing out condoms at junior highs falls squarely past that limit.
And yes, it is worth it. Giving the impression that sex is fine and normal at that age would ultimate lead more to experimentation and sex, and invariably moving on to more sex without condoms. Like I said- any person that age who becomes pregnant by having sex willingly (and isnt the victim of rape) deserves to deal with the consequences. Im not willing to make their sexual lives easier by encouraging the vast majority of students that age, who do NOT have sex, to do so. The statement that 'theyre going to **** anyway' in junior high are absurd.
I have only read the recent discussion between PD/Slurpy/Terrene/others, but isn't it possible to have sex ed that extols that values of protection without directly offering them in schools?
Is the problem education or simply the availability of condoms?
I believe that kids need to know about the dangers of unsafe sex (and early), and I personally believe that condoms should be available if a students want them, but I certainly can't rely on parents to have some sort of responsibility. Parents suck, largely.
Is the problem education or simply the availability of condoms?
I believe that kids need to know about the dangers of unsafe sex (and early), and I personally believe that condoms should be available if a students want them, but I certainly can't rely on parents to have some sort of responsibility. Parents suck, largely.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Zaptruder said:
So I'm ignorant for wanting to tell my own kids first about the dangers of unprotected sex, and ways to prevent it? Bravo
emomoonbase
I'm free 2night after my LARPing guild meets.
And not at home either it seems!
PhoenixDark said:
If you think that your little speech is a 100% sure solution, then yes, I would say you're ignorant.
I'm not naieve enough to believe that it is, neither am I naieve enough to believe that simply having condoms in highschool vending machines would be enough to cure teen pregnancy; it's not.
But it is another point of defense against a pretty serious problem.
You do what you have to do, to inform your own children. You get together with parents of your childrens friends, band around, create a strong social community, with strong social community values that espouse that; espouse celibacy, espouse safe sex practices, whatever.... you advocate for the schools to teach about this stuff... and you make condoms discreetly available in highschools, because you're been serious about the problem; and you understand that despite all the safeguards that you can have, that somehow, somewhere, something can still go wrong.
But the more safeguards there are, the less likely the problem is to occur. The tighter the mesh, the less likely things are to fall through.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Zaptruder said:
And I agree with most of that. And if a parent doesn't, they should have a right to not participate in it and do things as they see fit.
PhoenixDark said:
As the law stands, the parent absolutely has the right to sequester their children away from a public environment, by giving a child homeschooling.
But if they wish to use the public education system, then they should know that they've already given up some of that right as a parent; that they've exposed their children to outside influences. Instead of ignoring that and then stepping in arbitarily to block certain things while ignoring the effective consequences of doing so... why don't you take a moment to understand that your child and their growth does not exist outside a vacuum.
It's all good and well for you to teach them certain values; but if you're letting them go to a public school, then you've lost your right and effective ability to construct every part of the environment around them; you simply have to teach them in such a way as to ignore outside influences more; if that's your thing.
What I'm trying to say is; do what you can; do what you think you should do.
But do not deny realities just because they are not appeasing to you.
You don't need condoms to have sex. You don't need condoms to get pregnant. The presence or lack thereof of condoms are not going to cause students to have mass orgies. If you've taught your son or daughter well; they're not going to be turned on, into a slavering sex beast by the sight of a condom.
But they should be there in the likely possibility that one or two promiscuous teenagers ignore all the warnings and go ahead and start rooting away anyway; it'll provide them with the choice to have protected sex.
What on Earth makes you think parents will do it?PhoenixDark said:
Do it in schools. Parents generally aren't given a choice in the hospital when they ignore what's best for a child in order to uphold some archaic religious belief. Why? Because it comes to a certain point where the public good comes above and beyond trusting a parent to do what's best. If the parents really are teaching their kids about sex on a timely manner, then they should be fine with the school doublebacking over what the parents themselves covered. If not, at least the kids know about it. I'm sorry if this shit makes Jesus cry, but I'm not willing to put public safety at risk because some asshole parents think they know more than public schools do. They don't.
I wish I had the name of the 20/20 piece where approximately 33% of a class in New Jersey had an STD by the time they were a freshman in high school because the parents successfully banned sex ed in schools.
The facts are overwhelmingly against you, PD. I wish I had your romantic look at parenting but unfortunately I have the luxury of knowing something you don't seem to: most parents are total retards who would **** up raising their kids if they couldn't watch Dr. Phil.
PhoenixDark
Banned
whytemyke said:
The facts aren't against me - a group of internet posters are. Why letting the few parents out there who don't want their kids being taught sex ed in school is radically wrong is beyond me. You act like public safety is at risk because of a select, small group of parents. Give me a break.
whytemike said:
You act like sex education is a massive success in schools when in reality it's not, at all. The STD rate among the youth is still high. These numbers from just 2004 are eye opening. I don't believe for one second that the lack of sex ed in the school you reference is the only reason for such a high outbreak. Did the report mention STD rates during the period of time when sex ed was taught there?
the year 20XX
Member
Has anyone mentioned that our society is declining morally and that everything was better in the '50s yet? You know, back when nobody ever had premarital sex, ever?
Anyway, when it comes to sex ed, I don't trust most parents to tell their kids, and I don't trust the school systems either. This is why I propose that Cinemax be distributed for free.
because I love that one
Anyway, when it comes to sex ed, I don't trust most parents to tell their kids, and I don't trust the school systems either. This is why I propose that Cinemax be distributed for free.
PhoenixDark
Banned
whytemyke said:
When did I ever say anything like that? It seems like you're far more interested in jumping to conclusions than actually paying attention to what I said. I have no problem with sex ed in schools. I don't think it should be banned or watered down in any way. I am saying that if parents don't feel that their kids need to take the class, they shouldn't be forced to.
whytemyke said:
What? A vaccine like that makes you immune from the disease. Sex ed doesn't make you immune from anything, and if it was comparable to vaccines we wouldn't be having this discussion right now would we?
Again, it should be noted that Phoenix Dark has never had sex. So he probably isn't the person you want making this type of call.
Also, he was home schooled for like half his life, so he doesn't really have too good of a frame of reference.
Frankly, PD, looking around America should tell you that there's enough reasons to MANDATE sex ed as early as possible. For every family that does a good job raising their kids and tells them everything at the right time, there's like five that don't.
Also, he was home schooled for like half his life, so he doesn't really have too good of a frame of reference.
Frankly, PD, looking around America should tell you that there's enough reasons to MANDATE sex ed as early as possible. For every family that does a good job raising their kids and tells them everything at the right time, there's like five that don't.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Triumph Dolomite 1300cc said:
I was homeschooled for half my life? That's news to me
PhoenixDark
Banned
Triumph Dolomite 1300cc said:
How old am I again? Maybe you can tell me, because I've forgotten. Brilliant strawman though
You're 19 or 20? Regardless, most people go through 12 years of primary education, so what I said wasn't far off the mark.PhoenixDark said:
Let's see, you want to offer your qualified "opinion" on this issue when you have a lack of first hand knowledge regarding:
A) Sex
B) Parenting
C) Public education at that stage in someone's life
Well, it maybe be a strawman, but it's a DARN effective one!
PhoenixDark
Banned
Triumph Dolomite 1300cc said:
Ad Hominem bullshit FTL. But alas, we've resolved our differences at that other place so meh. I'm not taking the bait here:lol
CajoleJuice
Member
I told you that. At EB.PhoenixDark said:
I love how these crackpots justify their whinging.
Their beliefs (eg creationism) must be taught in schools as a "credible alternative" to evolution and the big bang.
But on the flipside - contraception and sex education are not considered as "credible alternatives" to their preference for abstaining until marriage.
In retaliation, I'm going to recite tracts from The God Delusion to every door-knocking fundie in future. If I can shake their beliefs even slightly, I will consider it a minor victory. I'm doing my bit, are you?
Their beliefs (eg creationism) must be taught in schools as a "credible alternative" to evolution and the big bang.
But on the flipside - contraception and sex education are not considered as "credible alternatives" to their preference for abstaining until marriage.
In retaliation, I'm going to recite tracts from The God Delusion to every door-knocking fundie in future. If I can shake their beliefs even slightly, I will consider it a minor victory. I'm doing my bit, are you?
Instigator
Banned
Hey guys, does Al Gore belong in school, yes or no?
SecretDestroyer
Banned
There is really nothing you can do about people like Frosty, they have a right to state their opinion.
The problem lays with what is becoming the default position in public life that both sides of any controversy are on equal footing. From climate change to evolution to sex education; we have a whole lot of intelligent, highly educated people, experts in their field, on one side and a handful of delusional crackpots like Frosty on the other. Public institutions need to be able to value these opinions accordingly. In no way are they on equal footing here. Science, reason, and the educated mind must be defended.
The problem lays with what is becoming the default position in public life that both sides of any controversy are on equal footing. From climate change to evolution to sex education; we have a whole lot of intelligent, highly educated people, experts in their field, on one side and a handful of delusional crackpots like Frosty on the other. Public institutions need to be able to value these opinions accordingly. In no way are they on equal footing here. Science, reason, and the educated mind must be defended.
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