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TheJollyCorner · Nov 7, 2008

If S-E chose Nomura to direct a FFVII Remake over Kitase I'd eat a live baby seal. Christ... the lack of creative respect that man gets over a hotdog like Nomura (NOMURA TO DESIGN/DIRECT EVERYTHIIIIIIING!) really bugs the crap out of me. It's bugged me since Wada took charge. I'm by no means in one of the NeoGAF Nomura-Kill Squads, but if there is one thing that bothers me is seeing talent ignored and/or wasted... which I feel has been the case with Kitase since post FFVIII.

Then again, wrapping Kitase up on a remake of a game he made 11 years ago would prevent any chance of a new IP from the man.

Wait.... a new, original IP? From Kitase? With modern-day Square-Enix?

....

I've given up hope that one of Kitase/Nojima's original projects will ever get bankrolled. I've been waiting over 10 years for it. It's a shame Mistwalker hasn't taken off on a level that would allow Sakaguchi to inspire those two to defect and have an original project funded to their hearts desires. The original ideas they had for 'The Game That Would Become FFX' were really, really unique- not to mention some interesting character designs by Yusuke Naora (forget his Unlimited SaGa designs for a moment

). I loved what FFX ultimately became, so I'm not too bitter about that, but all the original designs/ideas were really neat.

Kitase/Nojima/Naora just need to create some kind of independent design merc team and see what company would pick them up/let them do whatever the hell they want. They've earned it, IMO.

gtj1092 · Nov 7, 2008

So judging by some peoples new found standards I guess haze was an even bigger success than i would of ever imagined.:lol

-Kh- · Nov 7, 2008

TheJollyCorner said:
If S-E..

Wait.... a new, original IP? From Kitase? With modern-day Square-Enix?

Kitase/Nojima/Naora just need to create some kind of independent design merc team and see what company would pick them up/let them do whatever the hell they want. They've earned it, IMO.

Wait, so you are saying that occuping the position of Producer is bad?????

It is true that a Director has a more direct involvement with a game, but in no way a Producer is in a position of disrespect.

He even had Sigma Harmonics under his control, yes a new IP this year (unfortunatelly not succesful).

He is the co-producer of the whole FFVII compilation, and isn't that his same role for the FNC project? Besides being the Producer of XIII right now.

If anything, I feel bad about Ito, which is really the person that has gone way under the radar due to Kitase and Nomura running the show.

I don't want to see Ito doing remakes, but I hope he will be in charge of FFVI, that game deserves to be done in-house, and not by Matrix, but then again Kitase deserves to be there as well. And I'll say it again, because I never get tired to repeat it, I really hope he is in charge XIV and working at this moment on the planning stages. Because if that isn't the case, then this man is the one that needs to step out and make his independent studio.

gtj1092 said:
So judging by some peoples new found standards I guess haze was an even bigger success than i would of ever imagined.:lol

Well, Ubi/FR did get Korn to a video/song for the game, so the marketing for it was huge indeed. So I don't think that would quite be the case, even by those people standards :lol

Oldschool · Nov 7, 2008

Any shipped numbers for Final Fantasy Tactics: The Lion War?

Just to compare with Final fantasy tactics A2

-Kh- · Nov 7, 2008

Oldschool said:
Any shipped numbers for Final Fantasy Tactics: The Lion War?

Just to compare with Final fantasy tactics A2

Sorry, only got Famitsu numbers: 301,796, with 287,871 for TA2.

Spiegel · Nov 7, 2008

Same period last year

charlequin · Nov 7, 2008

It's too bad that people are too busy talking about dumb tangents in this thread to discuss the interesting parts of these numbers, like the Euro love for Dragon Quest or the surprisingly solid sales numbers on FFTA2.

ccbfan · Nov 7, 2008

Parl said:
Breakdown:

NDS: 2,510,000
PSP: 620,000
360: 410,000
Wii: 170,000
PS3: 0

In conclusion, 360 is the best choice for third parties, followed by Wii, and it's not worth putting games on PS3.

Actually, that's obviously not true, but it just goes to show that it's important to look at the titles that are being released when comparing platform breakdowns for a third party publisher. I've seen too many negative conclusions about the Wii's ability to support third parties based on these publisher results, when really, all it shows is that bigger budget games tend to sell more, the kind you find in massive amounts of PS360, and in tiny amounts on Wii. So yeah, it should be obvious that with the current landscape of support, many third parties will perform better on both 360 and PS3, but it hasn't seemed obvious to some.

Additionally, revenue doesn't equal profit. It's be nice for publishers to not have spend money to develop games and market them, but they do. I've noticed quite a lot of attention paid to revenue on platforms without taking into account that titles generating said revenue could have cost a hell of a lot of money, and with the recent financial results of a lot of these publishers, you can bet damn well that they do.

The problem is that while the Wii 3rd Party isn't struggling in Japan compared to the 360 and PS3 it is compared to DS and PSP.

DS should be obvious why.

PSP and Wii have about the same total software sales the last 6 months. The problem for the Wii is that its software sales is mostly first party while the PSP is mostly 3rd party. If you look at the releases the last 6 months you'd see that the two have had pretty much the same quality games from 3rd parties. Now what do you think a 3rd party company with most of its sales in Japan going to do? Hence the actions by S-E. Think about how many PSP and DS games have been annoucned lately? Think about the home console games announced.

Parl · Nov 8, 2008

ccbfan said:
The problem is that while the Wii 3rd Party isn't struggling in Japan compared to the 360 and PS3 it is compared to DS and PSP.

DS should be obvious why.

PSP and Wii have about the same total software sales the last 6 months. The problem for the Wii is that its software sales is mostly first party while the PSP is mostly 3rd party. If you look at the releases the last 6 months you'd see that the two have had pretty much the same quality games from 3rd parties. Now what do you think a 3rd party company with most of its sales in Japan going to do? Hence the actions by S-E. Think about how many PSP and DS games have been annoucned lately? Think about the home console games announced.

I agree. My comments were related to my issue with commonly held views about the nature of 3rd party performance across the 3 current generation home consoles.

charlequin said:
It's too bad that people are too busy talking about dumb tangents in this thread to discuss the interesting parts of these numbers, like the Euro love for Dragon Quest or the surprisingly solid sales numbers on FFTA2.

How did the original FFTA perform. It has performed higher than I would have expected from pure guesswork, but is it actually a solid performance compared to the prequel?
And, indeed, DQ did alright for itself in Europe.

-Kh- · Nov 8, 2008

ccbfan said:
Now what do you think a 3rd party company with most of its sales in Japan going to do? Hence the actions by S-E. Think about how many PSP and DS games have been annoucned lately? Think about the home console games announced.

I still feel like SE is missing out the opportunity with the Wii. One popular series, as seen in the numbers posted here, that well could work on Wii, just in the same way as Nintendo has worked with Fire Emblem in both GC and Wii, although low budget projects, but directed to the fan-base, which isn't really higher than what they have sold on either home consoles or portatiles.

So if SE decided to put FFT in the Wii, the base (FE fans that could be general SRPG fans too) is already there, the franchise is long ago established on both home console (PS1) and Nintendo consoles (GBA/DS), not including some FF fans that might get drawn, plus any SRPG fan looking for more games to play.

So I believe a similar or even a little higher numbers could be attained on Wii with such a game, even maintaining the 2D sprites but in a 3D environment. It would help to expand the Tactics series, and might bring up the opportunity to a future installment in 3D on same platform, or another.

They are doing it already actually. Putting a DS game on Wii.. but I was talking about just going a little further and make the game to look a little less obvious that it is just a GBA game (talking about Tactics, not CC).

Even reusing PSP engines with some slight retouches could open as well the opportunity for more home-console RPGs. The success of Crisis Core is obviously given by FFVII, but reusing that engine would just maximize profits for SE in the end. Using it as a middleware to keep their RPG fans hapy on both ends (home and portatiles) to produce more games.
They could even go further back and take some of their PS2 engines too.

Hopefully we will see a higher amount of console RPGs next year thanks to Marvelous. If their games are succesful enough, then we should expect SE to follow suit and help exploit the market. The wait is just too much right now between 360/PS3 RPGs.

Sure thing Tri-Ace are getting the job done quite good, but after SO4 is done, and FFXIII, so far the future looks rather empty on the console front. The Wii is a quick and cheap console to develop, specially following the middleware model, so why not to use it to produce more money and keep the players happy while waiting for the big titles?

Parl said:
How did the original FFTA perform. It has performed higher than I would have expected from pure guesswork, but is it actually a solid performance compared to the prequel?

From Wiki:

- Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: 1.102 million approximately (660,000 in US, 441,926 in Japan, missing Europe numbers).

- Final Fantasy Tactics (PS1): 2.3 million approximately (1.35 million in Japan, 950,000 in US, not released in Europe)

shykyoichi · Nov 8, 2008

kbear said:
This company has really fallen. There's like two games I'm interested in from SE... FF13 and maybe Star Ocean 4. They used to be a powerhouse. Should probably take some hints from Capcom.

I agree. I remember the PS1 days where Squaresoft and Enix release bajillion games.

CowGirl · Nov 8, 2008

410,000 units worldwide for a next gen game is not a success at all.

Great numbers for Crisis Core though, shows there is a market for games on PSP if you have the right title.

gregor7777 · Nov 8, 2008

CowGirl said:
410,000 units worldwide for a next gen game is not a success at all.
.

Based on what metric exactly?

justchris · Nov 8, 2008

I am highly disappointed in everyone who didn't buy DQIV and TWEWY.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Eteric Rice · Nov 8, 2008

justchris said:
I am highly disappointed in everyone who didn't buy DQIV and TWEWY.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

I'm getting around to getting DQIV.

TWEWY, dunno about that one.

Dragon · Nov 8, 2008

CowGirl said:
410,000 units worldwide for a next gen game is not a success at all.

How many jRPGs have sold more this gen? Lost Odyssey, is that it?

-Kh- · Nov 8, 2008

gregor7777 said:
Based on what metric exactly?

Costs and production values of similar 360/PS3 titles?

Although it is obvious that the IU engine was produced thinking long term. SO4, and any future games using the same engine, costs will be reduced compared to those of IU, thanks to the engine not made up from the ground, but just improving on previoulsy build.

So IU might not produce that much profit, but SO4 more likely will do it at the same amount of units (410k to talk until this date).

TheBranca18 said:
How many jRPGs have sold more this gen? Lost Odyssey, is that it?

It's not about how many games you sell, but how much money you get out of them, that.s what determines how successful a title is.

shykyoichi said:
I agree. I remember the PS1 days where Squaresoft and Enix release bajillion games.

This is my whole point, reducing production while increasing costs is not a good deal for either side (developer and players), they have to diversify more if they want to keep their top production values for games like FFXIII/Versus, Dissidia and DQIX for example (each on its own measure of course).

justchris · Nov 8, 2008

charlequin said:
It's too bad that people are too busy talking about dumb tangents in this thread to discuss the interesting parts of these numbers, like the Euro love for Dragon Quest or the surprisingly solid sales numbers on FFTA2.

I think FFTA2 could have done better. It received some negative word of mouth that I think impaired sales, but it is superior to the original FFTA in every way.

-Kh- said:
I still feel like SE is missing out the opportunity with the Wii. One popular series, as seen in the numbers posted here, that well could work on Wii, just in the same way as Nintendo has worked with Fire Emblem in both GC and Wii, although low budget projects, but directed to the fan-base, which isn't really higher than what they have sold on either home consoles or portatiles.

So if SE decided to put FFT in the Wii, the base (FE fans that could be general SRPG fans too) is already there, the franchise is long ago established on both home console (PS1) and Nintendo consoles (GBA/DS), not including some FF fans that might get drawn, plus any SRPG fan looking for more games to play.

So I believe a similar or even a little higher numbers could be attained on Wii with such a game, even maintaining the 2D sprites but in a 3D environment. It would help to expand the Tactics series, and might bring up the opportunity to a future installment in 3D on same platform, or another.

I don't know. I suppose its worth a try, but SRPGs have not proven to be extrodinarily popular on home consoles.

Eteric Rice · Nov 8, 2008

I'd like to see them try a Professor Layton style game, but more mature and with a detective in an art deco style city. It would play similarly to Zack & Wiki, but would follow a story line that leads the player deeper and deeper into a huge conspiracy.

When I say art deco, think Bioshock or those old, old, old Superman cartoons.

gregor7777 · Nov 8, 2008

-Kh- said:
Costs and production values of similar 360/PS3 titles?

I'd buy that logic, but have we ever heard production costs for lower budget, next gen RPGs?

Not talking the big boys like FFXIII or a Mistwalker production here. Something like IU.

Eteric Rice · Nov 8, 2008

gregor7777 said:
I'd buy that logic, but have we ever heard production costs for lower budget, next gen RPGs?

Not talking the big boys like FFXIII or a Mistwalker production here. Something like IU.

We don't know the costs, but someone did comment that a normal HD needs about 500,000 copies to be sold before they make a profit. Considering RPGs are anything but normal (huge world and all), I suspect even the lower end ones cost a lot.

-Kh- · Nov 8, 2008

justchris said:
I don't know. I suppose its worth a try, but SRPGs have not proven to be extrodinarily popular on home consoles.

Well, Tactics was just an especific example, you could take any other SE IP if you want, but my point was about diversifying and reducing production costs while maximizing profit.

Eteric Rice said:
We don't know the costs, but someone did comment that a normal HD needs about 500,000 copies to be sold before they make a profit. Considering RPGs are anything but normal (huge world and all), I suspect even the lower end ones cost a lot.

500k units would represent about $20M net worth or so, but I think the low end of a decent average HD game should be around the $10M.

From last gen I remember reading somewhere that the cost of many GBA games started around $500k (maybe much less for 'non-games')?

But for games such like sequels that reuse assets, or that share the same engine, these costs are either lowered, or if being the same, the money will be used on some other department (i.e. better art, better music, bigger marketing, etc), so it is a good trade off for developers/publishers.

shykyoichi · Nov 9, 2008

-Kh- said:
Well, Tactics was just an especific example, you could take any other SE IP if you want, but my point was about diversifying and reducing production costs while maximizing profit.

I think the main problem is SE strength - Cinematics. They can't diversify well enough to suit other genres except maybe RPGs.

Kill Your Masters · Nov 9, 2008

gtj1092 said:
So judging by some peoples new found standards I guess haze was an even bigger success than i would of ever imagined.:lol

Comparing a FPS with jRPGs and how they do in the west? You have to lower any expectations for jrpgs outside of japan if there isn't a Final and Fantasy in the game title.

We don't know the costs, but someone did comment that a normal HD needs about 500,000 copies to be sold before they make a profit. Considering RPGs are anything but normal (huge world and all), I suspect even the lower end ones cost a lot.

Looking at IU I'd say that Tri-Ace saved a shitload of money on voice overs...which are missing most of the time.

soco · Nov 9, 2008

people keep tossing around random numbers, but the truth is that there's so many different levels. the original gears supposedly cost like 9-10 million to produce, but it's not clear how much of that was also spent on developing UE3 alongside gears.

it's very likely that gears cost more to create than IU, perhaps even by a factor of 1.5 to 2x. at any rate, with prices like these, i don't think you can call any game that makes a profit this generation a bomb, and i think it's very possible it still made a profit. they didn't even have voice acting for half the game and there's plenty of assets that could've been borrowed from a PS2 game.

Kill Your Masters · Nov 9, 2008

soco said:
people keep tossing around random numbers, but the truth is that there's so many different levels. the original gears supposedly cost like 9-10 million to produce, but it's not clear how much of that was also spent on developing UE3 alongside gears.

it's very likely that gears cost more to create than IU, perhaps even by a factor of 1.5 to 2x. at any rate, with prices like these, i don't think you can call any game that makes a profit this generation a bomb, and i think it's very possible it still made a profit. they didn't even have voice acting for half the game and there's plenty of assets that could've been borrowed from a PS2 game.

Agreed.

The game just looks "cheap" compared to other titles. Missing voice overs, zero cgi movies, mediocre graphics etc. I really cannot imagine this game would cost more than 10 mio, if a Gears was produced with 9-10 mio (with or without Ue3).

If Tri-Ace spent 20 mio on this, I would have to ask "where did the money go"?

Urban Scholar · Nov 9, 2008

damn man Front Mission can't catch a break. I really must say those numbers are a sad reminder that not all good ideas are popular ones with the public. Oh well at least The World Ends with you did better in the US than I thought

RyuHayate · Nov 9, 2008

It's nice to see that Infinite Discovery did well. I haven't played it yet, but its success will hopefully help S-E that they don't need to sell each game as an FF spin off of some sort in order to garner interest.

Also, Holy Hell at Front Mission...

C.T. · Nov 9, 2008

Sad for Front Misson, but this is what you get for porting a mobile game to the highly competitive DS market. And after a remake that bombed to boot... stupid decision.

Joe211 · Nov 9, 2008

Now I understand why S-E wants to release FFXIII Agito on PSP

2DMention · Nov 9, 2008

I'm kinda sad that DQIV didn't sell well in the US. I hope they bring us all the other games.

They will

-Kh- · Nov 9, 2008

2DMention said:
I'm kinda sad that DQIV didn't sell well in the US. I hope they bring us all the other games.

They will

I was thinking about this, and it must be lack of better marketing. Anyone know how did DW 1&2 and DW3 back on GBC, or even NES? And how was DW7 vs DQ8?

DQ8 numbers might pretty well debunk this idea, but could the brand-naming change affect the game in general? Although I don't think that many people that played and liked DW so many years ago, would have overlooked it just for the name change.

So I'm more inclined to think that sales took a hit due to piracy and it is really a shame the DS software sales are hurting because of it.

adamsapple · Nov 9, 2008

here's hoping square show more PSP support in light of the crisis core numbers

preferably by porting over the DS remakes in the near future or something

Fuu · Nov 9, 2008

chandoog said:
here's hoping square show more PSP support in light of the crisis core numbers

preferably by porting over the DS remakes in the near future or something

They're already doing that with Dissidia, Birth by Sleep, Agito XIII and The 3rd Birthday. Agito and 3rd particularly show this since they were mobile projects.

gtj1092 · Nov 9, 2008

Hellraizer said:
Comparing a FPS with jRPGs and how they do in the west? You have to lower any expectations for jrpgs outside of japan if there isn't a Final and Fantasy in the game title.

But we aren't talking about relative success we are talking about success as in profit. So the only thing that matters is the shipped number and the budgets.

-Kh- · Nov 9, 2008

chandoog said:
here's hoping square show more PSP support in light of the crisis core numbers

preferably by porting over the DS remakes in the near future or something

Ugh...

What makes you think that people would buy a 2 year old game port of a DS game on PSP which would only have 1 screen (not like the game use both screens that much, but still), still since probably most people that have a PSP already own a DS.

I don't want any DS games going onto PSP, or PSP games going into DS. You should be asking for more NEW games and just like Fuu pointed out, they are giving the PSP many high profile games.

So the PSP support is going to get great. I really don't know what are you on. Don't you want all the PS2 games from last gen on PSP too? How about some downgraded ports of the 360 titles?

Spiegel · Nov 9, 2008

-Kh- said:
So the PSP support is going to get great. I really don't know what are you on. Don't you want all the PS2 games from last gen on PSP too? How about some downgraded ports of the 360 titles?

I want the rumored Vagrant Story port.

Rpgmonkey · Nov 9, 2008

-Kh- said:
Don't you want all the PS2 games from last gen on PSP too?

...I'd like that actually in the case of certain games.

-Kh- · Nov 9, 2008

Spiegel said:
I want the rumored Vagrant Story port.

I actually got from ebay a few weeks ago a copy of VS, so I'm not too interested on a port, but if we are talking about a remake, then why not. I don't know about a sequel, without Matsuno great crazy mind behind it, maybe with most of the original team working on it, but even so, I don't think it would work the same.

Rpgmonkey said:
...I'd like that actually in the case of certain games.

Playing on the go is cool, but talking about PS2 games, I don't like the PSP versions, I have the opportunity to play many PS2 AND PSP versions of the same games, basically ports made up for PSP, and really annoying when you don't get to control the camera, anyway, with respect to PS2, the games can still be found on shops or online, some of them might be harder but ebay is always there for maybe £10 more, and playing them on TV is really something better than on the little PSP screen and with the cluncky controls.

Let's just keep the PS2 games on the TV at least until the next PSP or DS iterations, and I know Disgaea says otherwise, but the TV still beats the little screen of the port.

adamsapple · Nov 9, 2008

@kh

its a selfish request since i don't plan on ever buying a DS

-Kh- · Nov 9, 2008

chandoog said:
@kh

its a selfish request since i don't plan on ever buying a DS

Oh?

You might want to go to the Hero of Legend thread about the PS2, people there might give you some council on how to overcome your fear about playing on other brand's consoles.

adamsapple · Nov 9, 2008

its not a brand thing (in-fact im buying a 360 over a PS3) , i just don't want a DS.

cw_sasuke · Nov 9, 2008

chandoog said:
its not a brand thing (in-fact im buying a 360 over a PS3) , i just don't want a DS.

but those ds games ? haha

adamsapple · Nov 9, 2008

see that's just it, i don't want a DS but i still want to play those FF and DQ remakes that square-enix are making for it

oh voe is me ..

Death_Born · Nov 9, 2008

chandoog said:
its not a brand thing (in-fact im buying a 360 over a PS3) , i just don't want a DS.

YOU CALL YOURSELF A GAMER?
DO-YOU-CALL-YOURSELF-A-GAMER!?

Leezard · Nov 9, 2008

-Kh- said:
Oh?

You might want to go to the Hero of Legend thread about the PS2, people there might give you some council on how to overcome your fear about playing on other brand's consoles.

Agreed, not buying a DS is pretty much equal to not buying a PS2.

shykyoichi · Nov 10, 2008

chandoog said:
see that's just it, i don't want a DS but i still want to play those FF and DQ remakes that square-enix are making for it

oh voe is me ..

Is there any reason why you don't want a DS?

Pureauthor · Nov 10, 2008

Leezard said:
Agreed, not buying a DS is pretty much equal to not buying a PS2.

That's, uh, still quite a ways of.

Equivalent of this generation perhaps, but even then the X360's taking its share of good games.

There's really no PS2 of this generation.

gregor7777 · Nov 10, 2008

Leezard said:
Agreed, not buying a DS is pretty much equal to not buying a PS2.

Not even close. I own a DS, but rarely play it.

I'm a console/PC gamer. Playing on a tiny screen with antiquated visuals and an inferior control scheme just isn't that appealing to me.

shykyoichi · Nov 11, 2008

gregor7777 said:
Not even close. I own a DS, but rarely play it.

I'm a console/PC gamer. Playing on a tiny screen with antiquated visuals and an inferior control scheme just isn't that appealing to me.

Let me guess your fav genre. Shooter?

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