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FantasticMrFoxdie · Mar 13, 2011

On The Wire being the most well-constructed show of all time:

"You come at the king, you best not miss!"

Acid08 · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
Airing obviously - he is talking about approaching HBO with these changes for S2 - something only possible quite late. - Certainly far, far later than the creation of the initial pitch - which was even before S1 was approved.

So you're saying that they didn't have any of the S2 changes done until S1 was almost done airing? Sounds like bullshit. Simon doesn't seem like the type of writer that doesn't have an overarching story at all times.

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
Read carefully -

Before the End of the first season - far after the pitch was made.

Or are you referring to some other part?

Do you have any document showing that Simon had five seasons about American urban ills in his mind when he made the original pitch? If so, I'd like to see it.

I'm referring to the HBO pitch you just posted in which he describes the show as a procedural, not the IGN interview. You keep changing the goal posts.

The IGN interview features Simon saying

1. Initially he wanted a different wiretap for each season
2. Each season would have a theme, from reform to education

By the time they finished writing the first season it became clear they couldn't simply drop the Barksdales and move on to another, different origination in S2. And yet as others have pointed out, each season still has a different target. So what exactly are you complaining about? The show was always going to have themes beyond the procedural aspect, and was never going to be Law & Order or even Homicide.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

Acid08 said:
So you're saying that they didn't have any of the S2 changes done until S1 was almost done airing? Sounds like bullshit. Simon doesn't seem like the type of writer that doesn't have an overarching story at all times.

Quite frankly it doesn't matter to the argument at hand. "At the end of the first season" is at a later point in time then "initial pitch to HBO" - You can call it "at the end of filimg or planning S1" if you like. You don't suggest changes for S2 to HBO when they haven't even seen the initial pitch.
The fact remains that Simon's initial pitch to HBO was of a police procedural with bells and whistles.

Murkas · Mar 13, 2011

I watched the whole of The Wire for the first time a few weeks ago. It was fantastic, my favourite season was the third one.

Why oh why did I watch garbage like Lost, Prison Break and Heroes when The Wire was on air.

Veelk · Mar 13, 2011

I don't think Tnsply is exactly wrong about it being a cops vs robbers show. It is that. It's just also much more than that. Like the way Watchmen is a superhero story but also so much more than that as well, including many social and political issues that would come to be from such an idea. The wire is just like that. Tnsply, you say that you simply wanted the cops and robbers, but everything is relevant to the war between the police department and the druglords. The schools and kids are relevant because that's how the criminals are made, the politics are relevant because that's what keeps the police department from doing it's job, Hamsterdam is relevant because it shows what happens when you try to buck the system. It's cops and robbers done in it's most realistic form, where it's effects would and have gone beyond simply the 2 fighters in the ring. In real life, it's never solely about the cops and robbers, but also about everyone around them, the entire city. I don't think you don't 'get it' but it was never really just about the criminals vs the cops. It was about the characters and how they all fit in their situations. Even in season one, they as the questions: Why can't Wallace and D escape the criminal system? Why does McNulty chases the criminals? How are the innocent bystanders are affected by it all? And many more. If the wire were truly about Criminal procedure and nothing else, then the show would have never brought up these questions. It'd be a static game of chess between the cops and criminals, which may be interesting, but it wouldn't teach you anything about the life these people live. And THAT is the real point of the wire. If you didn't care for it and just watched it for the criminal procedure, then I get how you can be upset with the later seasons, but you can't convince us that it was only ever about that.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

PhoenixDark said:
I'm referring to the HBO pitch you just posted in which he describes the show as a procedural, not the IGN interview. You keep changing the goal posts.

The IGN interview features Simon saying

1. Initially he wanted a different wiretap for each season
2. Each season would have a theme, from reform to education

By the time they finished writing the first season it became clear they couldn't simply drop the Barksdales and move on to another, different origination in S2. And yet as others have pointed out, each season still has a different target. So what exactly are you complaining about? The show was always going to have themes beyond the procedural aspect, and was never going to be Law & Order or even Homicide.

Nobody is changing ANY goal posts. The argument has ALWAYS been that the Wire was INITIALLY a police procedural / cop show where the cops went after different criminals each season. It was only later that Simon decided to address education, mayoral races, etc. (not just address by means of theme, but devote actual subplots to these area)

Its you people who are trying to prove "no it was ALWAYS supposed to have all aspects of Baltimore/American city".

I've quite clearly shown that the initial pitch and IGN interview supports my position.

Quite frankly, if you're going to weasel out of this saying that HBO's initial pitch is exactly (or even close to) how the show turned out in terms of content, you and I have nothing more to discuss.

betweenthewheels · Mar 13, 2011

I'm re-watching the series for the 4th time now. Season 4 is fantastic, my favourite, but it rips my heart apart every time I watch it...poor lil' Dukie...

Mumei · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
If anybody is STILL not convinced what the show was supposed to be and what is ended up being, read David Simon's pitch to HBO -

http://kottke.org.s3.amazonaws.com/the-wire/The_Wire_-_Bible.pdf

So, quite kindly spare me the hysteria over "you don't get it" or "it was never a cop show". I fucking get it - the writers changed their goddamn minds and turned their "police procedural" into a more about urban ills at some early point in time.

Where the fuck was the "prolonged wiretap" that we were supposed to "gravitate to" in S4 ? Why the hell do we have mayoral elections in the middle of a "police story" ?

They wanted to "lure me by a well constructed police show" which they certainly did.

"Did we mention these grandiose plans to HBO at the beginning? No, they would have laughed us out of the pitch meeting. Instead, we spoke only to the inversion of the cop show and a close examination of the drug wars dysfunction. But before shifting gears to the port in season two, I sat down with the HBO execs and laid out the argument to begin constructing an American city and examining the above themes through that construction. So here we are."

The pitch was not, as Simon has said in multiple interviews (for instance, in the excerpt you posted from the IGN interview and in The Believer interview which the above quote comes from) indicative of his actual long-term plans for the series. He only introduced them to his plans for the rest of the series as the first season was finishing, but that isn't an indication that his plans had changed.

There was no mind changing. He deliberately misrepresented his goals for the overall series by pitching it as something more limited than what he intended it to be, because he knew that if he pitched it exactly as what he wanted, he wouldn't even get a first season. Once he had his foot in the door and a first season, he introduced them to the rest of his vision. Simon said that they had the vision for the show and knew what the the overarching themes of each season were going to be before they made the pitch to HBO.

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
Nobody is changing ANY goal posts. The argument has ALWAYS been that the Wire was INITIALLY a police procedural / cop show where the cops went after different criminals each season. It was only later that Simon decided to address education, mayoral races, etc. (not just address by means of theme, but devote actual subplots to these area)

Its you people who are trying to prove "no it was ALWAYS supposed to have all aspects of Baltimore/American city".

I've quite clearly shown that the initial pitch and IGN interview supports my position.

Quite frankly, if you're going to weasel out of this saying that HBO's initial pitch is exactly (or even close to) how the show turned out in terms of content, you and I have nothing more to discuss.

The very interview you posted shows the show was going to focus on a major theme in each season. It has NEVER been a "cop show." Not even S1 is that simple.

The show was never as simple as you are trying to make it, and you haven't posted a single piece of evidence supporting yourself. Instead you focus on a couple lines in the very interview that proves you wrong. To make matters worse, you claim the show isn't about Baltimore which is also blatantly false. This is not some standard show of cops finding baddies, putting them in jail then moving to the next case. It examines crime on EVERY level.

theignoramus · Mar 13, 2011

PhoenixDark said:
It examines crime on EVERY level.

he doesnt care for that kind of leftist propaganda
edit: I think the guy would have been better off watching the Shield. (a fine show in its own right, no troll here)

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

theignoramus said:
he doesnt care for that kind of leftist propaganda
edit: I think the guy would have been better off watching the Shield. (a fine show in its own right, no troll here)

He said he liked The Shield. As do I, it's perhaps the second best show I've ever seen. S5 and S7 are basically God Tier, like S3 and S4 of The Wire imo

The Wire is clearly not for him. Trying to use snippets of interviews to suggest the show lost focus makes no sense. Simon used the show's police procedural basis as a trojan horse for a rather deep analysis of crime in a US city (Baltimore) from every possible angle. The cops, the judicial system, the drug trade, the education system. All those things do indeed apply to every case in the series.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

Mumei said:
"Did we mention these grandiose plans to HBO at the beginning? No, they would have laughed us out of the pitch meeting. Instead, we spoke only to the inversion of the cop show and a close examination of the drug wars dysfunction. But before shifting gears to the port in season two, I sat down with the HBO execs and laid out the argument to begin constructing an American city and examining the above themes through that construction. So here we are."

The pitch was not, as Simon has said in multiple interviews (for instance, in the excerpt you posted from the IGN interview and in The Believer interview which the above quote comes from) indicative of his actual long-term plans for the series. He only introduced them to his plans for the rest of the series as the first season was finishing, but that isn't an indication that his plans had changed.

There was no mind changing. He deliberately misrepresented his goals for the overall series by pitching it as something more limited than what he intended it to be, because he knew that if he pitched it exactly as what he wanted, he wouldn't even get a first season. Once he had his foot in the door and a first season, he introduced them to the rest of his vision. Simon said that they had the vision for the show and knew what the the overarching themes of each season were going to be before they made the pitch to HBO.

Fair enough - I hadn't seen that portion of the interview. I can concede that his misrepresentation made me think that he had changed his mind from a different original intent. Thank you for pointing this out.

computers putin' · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
No. I "get it". Its just that I don't give a crap about why black kids are turning to crime. I was interested in seeing cops go after criminals (a reason expectation given the name of the show and S1). If the show had been advertised like Boston Public, I would've known never to turn in. I'm simply not interested.

If I had a genuine interest in the ills of urban society, I'd watch real documentaries, not some fictionalized leftist propoganda from Simon.

sooooooooooo, you don't get it.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

PhoenixDark said:
The very interview you posted shows the show was going to focus on a major theme in each season. It has NEVER been a "cop show." Not even S1 is that simple.

As I've mentioned before themes are irrelevant to my entertainment - it is plot and screentime that I'm concerned about. Per the initial pitch and his interview, he was intending to keep it a cop show with minor bells and whistles.

The show was never as simple as you are trying to make it, and you haven't posted a single piece of evidence supporting yourself.

David Simon's own initial pitch was reasonable evidence enough - except that the guy lied in that pitch (which I was not aware of).

To make matters worse, you claim the show isn't about Baltimore which is also blatantly false. This is not some standard show of cops finding baddies, putting them in jail then moving to the next case. It examines crime on EVERY level.

What are you talking about? Another poster asked me what ideas could've been used if the show was to take the form of cops vs robbers season after season. I mentioned that if the show was to take that form, it could remove itself from Baltimore for one or more seasons.

This wasn't at all equivalent to claim "the show isn't about Baltimore".

BorkBork · Mar 13, 2011

I got it! Tnsply100 is actually one of the network executives that Simon fooled into greenlighting the show.

This explains why he was disappointed at the direction it went, when it was pitched as a procedural, and why he kept watching all five seasons.

Socreges · Mar 13, 2011

BorkBork said:
I got it! Tnsply100 is actually one of the network executives that Simon fooled into greenlighting the show.

This explains why he was disappointed at the direction it went, when it was pitched as a procedural, and why he kept watching all five seasons.

It's truly the only explanation that makes sense.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

BorkBork said:
I got it! Tnsply100 is actually one of the network executives that Simon fooled into greenlighting the show.

This explains why he was disappointed at the direction it went, when it was pitched as a procedural, and why he kept watching all five seasons.

If I was, I sure as hell wouldn't have allowed him to create some crap show about New Orleans... not even going to bother checking that show out.

MMaRsu · Mar 13, 2011

Holy shit I'm rewatching Starship Troopers on TV and fucking Carver is in it

Never knew that lol.

CygnusXS · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
If I was, I sure as hell wouldn't have allowed him to create some crap show about New Orleans... not even going to bother checking that show out.

The beautiful ode to modern American community and culture that is Treme would definitely, by the sound of it, not be your thing.

MMaRsu · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
If I was, I sure as hell wouldn't have allowed him to create some crap show about New Orleans... not even going to bother checking that show out.

Seriously man, what the fuck? I haven't even seen Treme but how can you call it a crap show if you've never even seen a single minute of it.

That's some retarded ass shit if you ask me.

Black Mamba · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
If anybody is STILL not convinced what the show was supposed to be and what is ended up being, read David Simon's pitch to HBO -

http://kottke.org.s3.amazonaws.com/the-wire/The_Wire_-_Bible.pdf

So, quite kindly spare me the hysteria over "you don't get it" or "it was never a cop show". I fucking get it - the writers changed their goddamn minds and turned their "police procedural" into a more about urban ills at some early point in time.

Where the fuck was the "prolonged wiretap" that we were supposed to "gravitate to" in S4 ? Why the hell do we have mayoral elections in the middle of a "police story" ?

They wanted to "lure me by a well constructed police show" which they certainly did.

That was an amazing way to splice quotes from the link. Here, let me give the one quote your own link gives that thoroughly debunks your assertion.

But as with the best HBO series, The Wire will be far more than a cop show, and to the extent that is breaks new ground, it will do so because of larger, universal themes that have more to do with the human condition, the nature of the American city, and, indeed, the national culture. The Sopronas becomes art when it stands more than a mob story, but as a treatise on the American family. Oz is at its best when it rises beyond the framework of the prison story and finds commonalities between that environment and out own external world. So, too, should The Wire be judged not merely as a descendent of Homicide or NYPD Blue, but as a vehicle for making statements about the American city and even the American experiment.

It's right there and you willfully ignore it. It was never a cops and robbers show, the wiretap was the backbone that linked all the characters together.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

MMaRsu said:
Seriously man, what the fuck? I haven't even seen Treme but how can you call it a crap show if you've never even seen a single minute of it.

That's some retarded ass shit if you ask me.

Haven't seen the Twilight movies either, and yet feel I can pass judgment on them.

I've read descriptions/summaries/reviews... random people in New Orleans trying to build their lives has no entertainment value for me.
I'm sure others will enjoy Treme... good for them.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

Black Mamba said:
That was an amazing way to splice quotes from the link. Here, let me give the one quote your own link gives that thoroughly debunks your assertion.

It's right there and you willfully ignore it. It was never a cops and robbers show, the wiretap was the backbone that linked all the characters together.

I'm not willfully ignoring it - it simply isn't there. You can read any "theme" you like in virtually any plot under the sun. Nothing in that pitch indicates that any real plot time will be spent on anything other than police investigation. Simon called his own show "a procedural" and a "police show".

Let me put it clearly, if you try hard enough, you can argue that Law and Order is a "vehicle for making statements about the American city". As I've repeated several times, themes are irrelevant - its the plot that I am concerned with.

As the other poster's link states, Simon misled HBO - and that was the reason for my own misunderstanding.

MMaRsu · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
I'm not willfully ignoring it - it simply isn't there. You can read any "theme" you like in virtually any plot under the sun. Nothing in that pitch indicates that any real plot time will be spent on anything other than police investigation. Simon called his own show "a procedural" and a "police show".

Let me put it clearly, if you try hard enough, you can argue that Law and Order is a "vehicle for making statements about the American city". As I've repeated several times, themes are irrelevant - its the plot that I am concerned with.

As the other poster's link states, Simon misled HBO - and that was the reason for my own misunderstanding.

So....you didn't get it?

I mean before watching Season 1, did you read his initial pitch and based your expectations on that pitch? Because even in Season 1 you can clearly see that this show is not a procedural cop shop.

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
As I've mentioned before themes are irrelevant to my entertainment - it is plot and screentime that I'm concerned about. Per the initial pitch and his interview, he was intending to keep it a cop show with minor bells and whistles.

David Simon's own initial pitch was reasonable evidence enough - except that the guy lied in that pitch (which I was not aware of).

What are you talking about? Another poster asked me what ideas could've been used if the show was to take the form of cops vs robbers season after season. I mentioned that if the show was to take that form, it could remove itself from Baltimore for one or more seasons.

This wasn't at all equivalent to claim "the show isn't about Baltimore".

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26458991&postcount=230

The show is about Baltimore in every aspect. Removing it to focus on terrorism wouldn't be The Wire - it would be 24. Likewise removing it to focus on a serial killer wouldn't be The Wire - it would be Law & Order. You clearly don't understand this, or why it separates the show from every other procedural.

The themes are irrelevant to your closed minded tastes, but that's not the point I'm making: my point is that contrary to your original claim that the show changed gears after S2, it was ALWAYS a study of various themes that related to crime in an American city - Baltimore.

With regards to Treme, I've heard it's not "for" everyone but it's a drama, not a crime show. To simply blow it off is kinda dumb but whatever, it's your prerogative. Stick to CSI

Black Mamba · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
I'm not willfully ignoring it - it simply isn't there. You can read any "theme" you like in virtually any plot under the sun. Nothing in that pitch indicates that any real plot time will be spent on anything other than police investigation. Simon called his own show "a procedural" and a "police show".

Let me put it clearly, if you try hard enough, you can argue that Law and Order is a "vehicle for making statements about the American city". As I've repeated several times, themes are irrelevant - its the plot that I am concerned with.

As the other poster's link states, Simon misled HBO - and that was the reason for my own misunderstanding.

Your original link had Simon telling us he misled HBO. His intention was always to tell the story of the American city. Which themes and vehicles he'd touch on was fleshed out later.

So you understand it was never a cops n' robbers show, I take it?

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

MMaRsu said:
So....you didn't get it?

I mean before watching Season 1, did you read his initial pitch and based your expectations on that pitch? Because even in Season 1 you can clearly see that this show is not a procedural cop shop.

No - because in Season 1 there was absolutely no indication that the show would go on to focus on schools in Season 4 or Hamsterdam in Season 3.

Season 1 is indeed a police procedural - just like the pitch claims. Explain to me what plot elements are in Season 1 that "clearly show that the show is not a procedural cop show"?

CygnusXS · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
No - because in Season 1 there was absolutely no indication that the show would go on to focus on schools in Season 4 or Hamsterdam in Season 3.

Season 1 is indeed a police procedural - just like the pitch claims. Explain to me what plot elements are in Season 1 that "clearly show that the show is not a procedural cop show"?

He should have said it wasn't "just" a police procedural. Which it wasn't. Even in the very first episode there is a ton of social commentary. You just have to read between the lines a tiny bit.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

PhoenixDark said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26458991&postcount=230

The show is about Baltimore in every aspect. Removing it to focus on terrorism wouldn't be The Wire - it would be 24. Likewise removing it to focus on a serial killer wouldn't be The Wire - it would be Law & Order. You clearly don't understand this, or why it separates the show from every other procedural.

Did you bother to read what I was responding to in that post? The poster asked me what could be covered in five seasons of the show IF the writers wanted to have five seasons of a police procedural show. To that, I responded saying that the seasons would be focused on various other plotlines - not constrained to Baltimore.

You're responding to this saying "But that isn't the Wire!" - which makes no sense. I was responding to a hypothetical question explaining another direction the show could have taken. You're simply stating "but that's not the direction they took" - well, no crap.

The themes are irrelevant to your closed minded tastes, but that's not the point I'm making: my point is that contrary to your original claim that the show changed gears after S2, it was ALWAYS a study of various themes that related to crime in an American city - Baltimore.

And how many times do you need to be told "study of various themes" is a goddamn meaningless statement? You can call Law and Order or the Simpsons a study of "various themes" in an American city if you try hard enough.

I deal with concrete plot - and the plot in Season 1 is NOTHING outside the scope of a police procedural show.

With regards to Treme, I've heard it's not "for" everyone but it's a drama, not a crime show. To simply blow it off is kinda dumb but whatever, it's your prerogative. Stick to CSI

Watch CSI yourself - its awful IMO.

MMaRsu · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
No - because in Season 1 there was absolutely no indication that the show would go on to focus on schools in Season 4 or Hamsterdam in Season 3.

Season 1 is indeed a police procedural - just like the pitch claims. Explain to me what plot elements are in Season 1 that "clearly show that the show is not a procedural cop show"?

Because even in S1 it's obvious that it's about Baltimore and the people surrounding the crimes as well. Not just the criminals and cops.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

CygnusXS said:
He should have said it wasn't "just" a police procedural. Which it wasn't. Even in the very first episode there is a ton of social commentary. You just have to read between the lines a tiny bit.

And I can make the same statement about Law and Order. If I read between the lines, I can come up with any goddamn thing under the sun depending on how far I want to stretch it.

Which is why talking about themes is idiotic - they are too subjective. I only look at the plot - and when I look at the plot, I see nothing in Season 1 beyond the scope of a police procedural.

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

CygnusXS said:
He should have said it wasn't "just" a police procedural. Which it wasn't. Even in the very first episode there is a ton of social commentary. You just have to read between the lines a tiny bit.

Exactly. The two main characters of S1 display the theme of individualism within a group - the cops and criminals. S1 is as much about D'Angelo's evolution as anything else.

CygnusXS · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
Did you bother to read what I was responding to in that post? The poster asked me what could be covered in five seasons of the show IF the writers wanted to have five seasons of a police procedural show. To that, I responded saying that the seasons would be focused on various other plotlines - not constrained to Baltimore.

You're responding to this saying "But that isn't the Wire!" - which makes no sense. I was responding to a hypothetical question explaining another direction the show could have taken. You're simply stating "but that's not the direction they took" - well, no crap.

It's not that that wasn't the direction they took, it's that the show couldn't have left Baltimore without betraying its entire premise.

Edit:

tnsply100 said:
And I can make the same statement about Law and Order. If I read between the lines, I can come up with any goddamn thing under the sun depending on how far I want to stretch it.

Which is why talking about themes is idiotic - they are too subjective. I only look at the plot - and when I look at the plot, I see nothing in Season 1 beyond the scope of a police procedural.

The difference is that The Wire constructed its entire plot, characters, and world around its themes, whereas other shows treat themes as secondary.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

Black Mamba said:
Your original link had Simon telling us he misled HBO. His intention was always to tell the story of the American city. Which themes and vehicles he'd touch on was fleshed out later.

So you understand it was never a cops n' robbers show, I take it?

The original link only had Simon not going to HBO "before the end of the first season" in preparation for Season 2. That did not prove that the initial pitch that he made before the first season was approved was intentionally misleading.

The other poster in the thread posted the interview (not the IGN one I posted) where Simon claims that even his initial pitch was misleading.

And yes, presuming Simon is telling the truth about his lies in that interview - I conceded that Simon intended to mislead HBO from the beginning and not follow a cops vs robbers pattern.

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
And I can make the same statement about Law and Order. If I read between the lines, I can come up with any goddamn thing under the sun depending on how far I want to stretch it.

Which is why talking about themes is idiotic - they are too subjective. I only look at the plot - and when I look at the plot, I see nothing in Season 1 beyond the scope of a police procedural.

Law & Order is a police serial. Each season is cops catching bad guys with the help of the judicial system. It has no over lining theme that dominates each season, like The Wire. You've gone from arguing the themes are unnecessary to arguing the themes are so subjective they're irrelevant. S2 is about the decline of industrialism, a dying middle class. S3 is about reform - not simply political reform. S4 focuses on the school system in relation to crime. And of course S5 focuses on the media. Those aren't subjective. The show isn't about "cops and robbers" because you say it is. It's far broader, and multiple pieces of evidence have been posted - and you even acknowledged them earlier.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

CygnusXS said:
It's not that that wasn't the direction they took, it's that the show couldn't have left Baltimore without betraying its entire premise.

Read the full conversational thread between me and the other poster. I explicitly stated that I was no writer, and that it was the writer's jobs to come up with new plotlines for each season - without it getting repetitive. The other poster responded stating that he'd still like to hear what I personally could come up with.

So, if I'm going to put myself in the shoes of a writer, of course, I will take the show in a different direction. I, as a writer, am not beholden to any premises agreed upon by the original writers.

Pointing out that when I hypothetically become a writer, I would not be keeping with the intentions of the original writers is completely irrelevant. It is not equivalent to me stating "the current writers did not make this show about Baltimore".

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
Read the full conversational thread between me and the other poster. I explicitly stated that I was no writer, and that it was the writer's jobs to come up with new plotlines for each season - without it getting repetitive. The other poster responded stating that he'd still like to hear what I personally could come up with.

So, if I'm going to put myself in the shoes of a writer, of course, I will take the show in a different direction. I, as a writer, am not beholden to any premises agreed upon by the original writers.

Pointing out that when I hypothetically become a writer, I would not be keeping with the intentions of the original writers is completely irrelevant. It is not equivalent to me stating "the current writers did not make this show about Baltimore".

Well call your hypothetical show something other than The Wire and move on, because what you want is clearly not The Wire. This is like saying the basic premise of Breaking Bad should be him selling cocaine instead of meth, getting into a gang battle in NY, etc. IE It's not Breaking Bad, it becomes something else.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

PhoenixDark said:
Law & Order is a police serial. Each season is cops catching bad guys with the help of the judicial system. It has no over lining theme that dominates each season, like The Wire.

What? I can perfectly well argue that Season 1 of Law and order deals with the plotline of police corruption - there are several episodes that deal with it.

You've gone from arguing the themes are unnecessary to arguing the themes are so subjective they're irrelevant.

An examination of themes are unnecessary for my entertainment - that is completely true.

When trying to define whether a show is a "police procedural", themes should not be considered because they are too subjective. Their subjectivity makes them unnecessary and irrelevant in this discussion.

Nothing I've stated is a change in position.

S2 is about the decline of industrialism, a dying middle class.
S3 is about reform - not simply political reform. S4 focuses on the school system in relation to crime. And of course S5 focuses on the media. Those aren't subjective.

Yes, they are subjective in terms of judging whether show X addresses the theme or not. I can just as easily find a couple of episodes or Law and Order where the cops are dealing with the New York city schools and then start making grandiose (but ultimately meaningless) statements like "Law and Order addresses the theme of declining standards in urban schools". I can just as easily look at a well known Papparazzi episode of Law and Order episode - and start claiming that Law and Order examines the role of Papparazzi in modern journalism.

And I wouldn't be any more "right" or "wrong" than you are.

I wish there were some sort of mathematical formula that allowed you to prove statements about abstract concepts like themes - but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Any asshole can say just about anything under the sun - and there is no real way to "prove" him wrong.

Black Mamba · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
The original link only had Simon not going to HBO "before the end of the first season" in preparation for Season 2. That did not prove that the initial pitch that he made before the first season was approved was intentionally misleading.

The other poster in the thread posted the interview (not the IGN one I posted) where Simon claims that even his initial pitch was misleading.

And yes, presuming Simon is telling the truth about his lies in that interview - I conceded that Simon intended to mislead HBO from the beginning and not follow a cops vs robbers pattern.

He misled by not being specific about where he was going. But the show, even during season 1, was obviously branching out. A normal show would have stopped at Rawles. But this did not. It went to Burrell and politics were playing out, especially with Daniels.

Here's the conclusion to the Bible link:

But more than an exercise is realism for its own sake, the verisimilitude of The Wire exists to serve something larger. In the first story-arc, the episodes begin what would seem to be the straight-forward, albeit protracted, pursuit of a violent drug crew that controls a high-rise housing project. But within a brief span of time, the officers who undertake the pursuit are forced to acknowledge truths about their department, their role, the drug war and the city as a whole. In the end, the cost to all sides begins to suggest not so much the dogged police pursuit of the bad guys, but rather a Greek tragedy. At the end of thirteen episodes, the reward for the viewer who has been lured all this way by a well-constructed police show is not the simple gratification of hearing handcuffs click. Instead, the conclusion is something that Euripides or ONeill might recognize: an America, at every level at war with itself.

HBO thought they were going to get case after case of solving with some commentary. But the mention of Greek Tragedy and the other stuff hints that the show was due to expand.

His misleading was more in the verbal talks with HBO than on the scripts.

BriareosGAF · Mar 13, 2011

Thread delivers bizarre pointless argument!

Re: seeing characters in random places, wife and I are big british drama fans, was a trip seeing Idris Elba in an Inspector Lynley when we were going through that series. "WHOA ITS STRINGER".

Re: Mouzone, I don't get the impression Simon goes in for cheap narrative tricks but I could almost believe Mouzone is there to sort of normalize your belief in some of the other outlandish characters (viz. Omar). Bit of a reach though.

PhoenixDark · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
What? I can perfectly well argue that Season 1 of Law and order deals with the plotline of police corruption - there are several episodes that deal with it.

An examination of themes are unnecessary for my entertainment - that is completely true.

When trying to define whether a show is a "police procedural", themes should not be considered because they are too subjective. Their subjectivity makes them unnecessary and irrelevant in this discussion.

Nothing I've stated is a change in position.

Yes, they are subjective in terms of judging whether show X addresses the theme or not. I can just as easily find a couple of episodes or Law and Order where the cops are dealing with the New York city schools and then start making grandiose (but ultimately meaningless) statements like "Law and Order addresses the theme of declining standards in urban schools". I can just as easily look at a well known Papparazzi episode of Law and Order episode - and start claiming that Law and Order examines the role of Papparazzi in modern journalism.

And I wouldn't be any more "right" or "wrong" than you are.

I wish there were some sort of mathematical formula that allowed you to prove statements about abstract concepts like themes - but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Any asshole can say just about anything under the sun - and there is no real way to "prove" him wrong.

You do realize a serial show with one episode having a theme is different than an entire season having a theme correct; it is not comparable. Simon has stated many times the goal was for each season to focus on a different theme. That's a fact, and the seasons speak for themselves. Arguing the themes don't appeal to you is one thing - you're certainly free to have your own opinion. But arguing the themes don't exist, and are subjectively attached is simply factually and intellectually incorrect. There's nothing "abstract" about the themes in The Wire - they're in your face, which some have criticized (especially in S5).

Zeliard · Mar 13, 2011

tnsply100 said:
No. I "get it". Its just that I don't give a crap about why black kids are turning to crime. I was interested in seeing cops go after criminals (a reason expectation given the name of the show and S1). If the show had been advertised like Boston Public, I would've known never to turn in. I'm simply not interested.

If I had a genuine interest in the ills of urban society, I'd watch real documentaries, not some fictionalized leftist propoganda from Simon.

Why you guys didn't stop replying after this post is a mystery.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

Black Mamba said:
He misled by not being specific about where he was going. But the show, even during season 1, was obviously branching out. A normal show would have stopped at Rawles. But this did not. It went to Burrell and politics were playing out, especially with Daniels.

A police commissioner threatening/derailing an subordinate is completely quite normal for a police procedural. Have you seen Wire in the Blood for instance?

Snuggles · Mar 13, 2011

deserve ain't got nuthin to do with it

CygnusXS · Mar 13, 2011

PhoenixDark said:
You do realize a serial show with one episode having a theme is different than an entire season having a theme correct; it is not comparable. Simon has stated many times the goal was for each season to focus on a different theme. That's a fact, and the seasons speak for themselves. Arguing the themes don't appeal to you is one thing - you're certainly free to have your own opinion. But arguing the themes don't exist, and are subjectively attached is simply factually and intellectually incorrect. There's nothing "abstract" about the themes in The Wire - they're in your face, which some have criticized (especially in S5).

Not to mention that Simon has explicitly stated what they were trying to tackle with each season. Even better is the commentary he's done on the DVD's, where he flat out says things like (paraphrasing) "so this season we're tackling this, and this scene is important towards that because ... etc."

MMaRsu · Mar 13, 2011

Yeah like PD is saying, the themes in The Wire aren't subjective at all.

Acid08 · Mar 13, 2011

Zeliard said:
Why you guys didn't stop replying after this post is a mystery.

Oh wow, I didn't even see that.

If that's not what you want to see then you really don't "get" the show and it's fucking obvious.

tnsply100 · Mar 13, 2011

PhoenixDark said:
You do realize a serial show with one episode having a theme is different than an entire season having a theme correct; it is not comparable.

Depending on the theme, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Law and order devoted more time to it than the Wire. The show was on air for 20+ seasons with like 400 episodes. I don't see why its not comparable? Is addressing themes across seasons somehow not allowed?

Simon has stated many times the goal was for each season to focus on a different theme. That's a fact, and the seasons speak for themselves. Arguing the themes don't appeal to you is one thing - you're certainly free to have your own opinion. But arguing the themes don't exist, and are subjectively attached is simply factually and intellectually incorrect. There's nothing "abstract" about the themes in The Wire - they're in your face, which some have criticized (especially in S5).

No one has said themes don't exist. I am saying they can be quite subjectively attached. You can certain parrot David Simon's "season 2 addresses the middle class, season 3 addresses reform" routine - but quite frankly, there isn't a single theme that you will be able to come up with that I won't be able to find in Law and order or just about any other procedural.

Look deep enough, and you'll find criticism of the media in the Flintstones. It all depends on how far you want to stretch things - how you choose to interpret certain literal plot elements as metaphors...etc.

brianjones · Mar 13, 2011

BriareosGAF said:
Thread delivers bizarre pointless argument!

its telling how you can derail a thread with pointless arguments and dumb opinions as long as you're committed to arguing them.

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