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Anita Sarkeesian "Tropes vs. Women" Video will come out today [out now, link in OP]

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unbias

Member
Not from accountability. If you make an art piece that promotes hate speech and thus creates harmful consequences, then you aren't free from being accountable.

Moreover, not all opinions/expressions are equally deserving of recognition and/or protection. I.e.



and

But it doesn't work out like that. Hate speech can be relative if you allow room to dictate what is and isn't hate speech you leave room for it to be used as a political weapon. If you create art that has hate speech theme's in them, and someone uses that as an excuse to do something wrong, that person who did should not be able to blame the content creator of the crime they committed.

If you allow what you are advocating, then it leaves room to witch hunt, based on idea's and not actions.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Freedom of speech isn't absolute in a moral sense. Hate speech, denial of Holocaust, yelling fire in a crowded theatre, etc. Expressions can have harmful repercussions and thus aren't free in an absolute sense. Not saying that harmful gender stereotypes are equally significantly harmful, just pointing out that the people saying "the artist is free to do whatever she/he pleases without repercussions" aren't correct.

But technically, in the gaming world, the consumer has direct influence on the video game entertainment industry on what gets published by voting with their purchase of the game.

Thus, the consumers are the ones who act as the center of what drives video game expansion and its continued existence as a business.

Technically, people do vote with their freedom to purchase whatever style of game they want, which indirectly shows which storytellers/artists/etc... keep making games.

It's a circular argument/business model. Gamers want more of X so producers make more of 'X' until gamers tire of the repeated gamestyle and move on, thus instituting a new scramble by developers to find that next big 'Y' feature.

Does that mean it should be exempt from criticism or strive to include a bigger market share by appealing to more women by way of more gender-equal games? Of course not.

Just that it's harder to introduce change in any entertainment industry, which is selective and profit-driven, when opposed to the reality of life, which inevitably features working with others on a day to day basis.

Freedom of speech, in terms of art, definitely should be an absolute, otherwise you leave the door open for picking and choosing what is or isnt acceptable based on a single individual's belief, or worse yet, what the mob(majority) believe.

This is what I'm getting at, though perhaps phrased differently.

People should be allowed to print/draw/whatever they want. Granted, the caveat of not 'harming' others exists, but even that line is debatable.

Your yelling fire in a theater example obviously has the capacity for leading to obvious physical harm, but does a racist picture in a KKK pamphlet carry equal potential for harm just because it could incite a KKK member to do harm to others?

It's the same argument made that violent video games lead to school shootings and the like. In that case, as far as the law stands thus far (I think, haven't kept up on Biden's line of inquiry) the onus falls on the person themselves, or their parents, with available things like the ESRB and M rated games.

Granted, society as a whole can choose to demand accountability from such things, and rightfully so. But moving from being dismissive/opposing of ideas to outright not allowing them strikes me as censorship.
 

pakkit

Banned
I'm sure this has been covered... But either way.
Is the onus on male devs to create games that will make feminists happy? As far as I'm aware devs tend to either make games that will sell due to the nature of the business of making games (COD etc) or games that they themselves want to play.

I actually have a problem with the latest Tomb Raider in this respect. I'm really having fun with it right now. The gameplay is great. However I do find the character irritating. Because she comes across as some struggling timid little thing just getting by. Which is not at all reflected in the gameplay, because I'm a fucking walking death machine. I'd absolutely love it if she screamed blue murder after I've mauled down 10 dudes with arrows to the face...

There are women game developers. Giving them more clout to check for offensive content could work. Maybe if someone told Santa Monica that a "bros before hos" joke was in poor taste, they could've nipped it in the bud. Even if videogames are for "teenaged boys," they still have more sense than to endlessly devour crap. I was playing Grim Fandango...No One Lives Forever...and Anachronox in my teenaged years. If a group of enthusiasts follow games for their interactive storytelling - it makes sense to cater to them and write more thoughtful characters.

Back to the DID trope - can you think of developers handling the trope well? I think The Darkness used the set-up really well. SPOILERS AHEAD The player gets introduced to Jenny Romano, understands that she is the love interest of the main character (through wonderful soliloquies fed to the player during the loading screens), and even heads over for a date. If you want, you're allowed to sit through an entire movie with Jenny...as mundane as a real life date! And then she is kidnapped and you play through the first few levels trying to get her back...and then Starbreeze tears it all away and forces you to watch. It's one of those MEANINGFUL moments of violence in videogames, where you're upset at what's happening but you're too horrified to look away.
 

Lime

Member
But it doesn't work out like that. Hate speech can be relative if you allow room to dictate what is and isn't hate speech you leave room for it to be used as a political weapon. If you create art that has hate speech theme's in them, and someone uses that as an excuse to do something wrong, that person who did should not be able to blame the content creator of the crime they committed.

Read my edit. And your counter-argument isn't part of what we are discussing - I'm not talking about another moral agent acting based on another moral agent's expression, but the premise that we simply do not allow certain types of expression that directly harms e.g. already marginalized minorities, namely hate speech.

If you allow what you are advocating, then it leaves room to witch hunt, based on idea's and not actions

Now you are using the slippery slope argument, which is fallacious.

”The advocate of the slippery-slope has to demonstrate how a restriction here and now will lead to some further (unjustified) restriction in the future. The usual slippery-slope claim is not that the proposed restriction will lead to minor adjustments in the future, but that a small change now will have drastic and tyrannical consequences. The causal mechanisms for how this must necessarily happen are usually unspecified.” (van Mill, 2012)
 

unbias

Member
Read my edit.



Now you are using the slippery slope argument, which is fallacious.

Slippery slope arguments are not fallacies, and it is reality. History proves me right; given enough leeway, people will willfully and purposely go after people for idea's they dont agree with, specifically in a witch hunt type way.
 

pakkit

Banned
Slippery slope argument arguments are not fallacies, and it is reality. History proves me right; given enough leeway, people will willfully and purposely go after people for idea's they dont agree with, specifically in a witch hunt type way.
Intro to Logic?

We're way off course anyway.

What's ironic about the GOW bros before hoes trophy is that a woman on the dev team came up with the idea and the name of the trophy.

Women can be sexist, too. Plenty of female anti-feminists in the world. I should'nt have assigned a gender in my initial proposal - we simply need better writers who can recognize a tired story when they see it.

They can be logical fallacies, it doesn't mean they are, specially if there is history that shows that the slippery slope is real.

No, it's always a logical fallacy. It doesn't mean what you're arguing for isn't sound, but it does mean you're not arguing about it in a valid way. Maybe we're getting too Socratic here, I know I fallacy my way through arguments from time to time. Still, there is hate speech that is not protected and the world has not been thrown into the gyre. No talking about offing the Prez, for example.
 
There are women game developers. Giving them more clout to check for offensive content could work. Maybe if someone told Santa Monica that a "bros before hos" joke was in poor taste, they could've nipped it in the bud. Even if videogames are for "teenaged boys," they still have more sense than to endlessly devour crap. I was playing Grim Fandango...No One Lives Forever...and Anachronox in my teenaged years. If a group of enthusiasts follow games for their interactive storytelling - it makes sense to cater to them and write more thoughtful characters.

Back to the DID trope - can you think of developers handling the trope well? I think The Darkness used the set-up really well. SPOILERS AHEAD The player gets introduced to Jenny Romano, understands that she is the love interest of the main character (through wonderful soliloquies fed to the player during the loading screens), and even heads over for a date. If you want, you're allowed to sit through an entire movie with Jenny...as mundane as a real life date! And then she is kidnapped and you play through the first few levels trying to get her back...and then Starbreeze tears it all away and forces you to watch. It's one of those MEANINGFUL moments of violence in videogames, where you're upset at what's happening but you're too horrified to look away.

What's ironic about the GOW bros before hoes trophy is that a woman on the dev team came up with the idea and the name of the trophy.
 

Terrell

Member
That image of Palutena was meant to be about the first Kid Icarus where she was the damsel.

That, to me, was probably the weakest of her examples, too. Palutena is the architect of her own escape, using the last of her power before being sealed away to conscript a young boy of her kingdom with part of her power and knowledge to save her, knowing he would succeed. However, because she does this in a passive way and does ultimately become unable to free herself, it sits on the borderline of the damsel trope. But it's also part of the reason that it's largely done away with in Uprising.
 

Lime

Member
We're way off course anyway.

Yeah, I didn't want to start a long discussion, just wanted to point out that freedom of speech isn't absolute and no one shouldn't be accountable for expressions. I'll stop now and sorry for hi-jacking.
 

Riposte

Member
So we are back to totalitarianism as a solution?

That, to me, was probably the weakest of her examples, too. Palutena is the architect of her own escape, using the last of her power before being sealed away to conscript a young boy of her kingdom with part of her power and knowledge to save her, knowing he would succeed. However, because she does this in a passive way and does ultimately become unable to free herself, it sits on the borderline of the damsel trope. But it's also part of the reason that it's largely done away with in Uprising.

Ha, yeah, I just got done saying that. I agree.
 
Maybe not blue murder, but towards the end of the game she's pretty much yelling about how she's going to kick their assess. The progression, if a little forced at times, was well done, I thought.

Interestingly, the story was written by a woman.

Yeah I know. Which is why I do feel a bit irked that the character doesn't match the abilities that I have. I'm still going through the game, but it's the only thing that sticks out to me. I literally feel like Rambo playing it.
If we're gonna talk about a good example of the progression of someone who had to survive, Arya Stark imo, is one of the best examples. I know it's unfair to compare a book to a game, but she is one of my favourite characters.

There are women game developers. Giving them more clout to check for offensive content could work. Maybe if someone told Santa Monica that a "bros before hos" joke was in poor taste, they could've nipped it in the bud.

I'm all for more female game devs because we'd hopefully get more varieties in designs and so forth. However I'd hate for them to be there with the sole purpose of dictating what is and isn't offensive.

The bros before hoes thing, whilst I don't know how you get that, does work within the context of the characters. They're big beefcake characters. It's getting in danger of just trying to be PC.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Perhaps something to bring up in this conversation:

Where does the current state of MMORPGs stand? It seems to have been come a tradition for these games to be gender neutral as far as the role of men and women - ridiculous costumes on female characters aside. MMOs are very popular with female players. The average MMO offers full player character gender customization. The storyline of the games is written to account for the player character being male or female.

Due to these factors, MMO plots are typically not about strong men running off to save women to prove their maleness and impress them. Despite the removal of this aspect, the male characters in MMOs don't seem neutered of their manliness. They are the same beefy aggro warriors as ever. The threats in MMOs are typically gender neutral - whatever bad guy or ancient evil threatens the world as a whole.

Within the typical MMO, an individual quest may involve a male or female character being in danger. But given the gender equality in most of the game, those instances don't stand out as a lazy stereotype being invoked.

This strikes me suddenly, as a common reaction to bringing up women in video games is a male game player grumbling about "feminists" causing trouble, as if they somehow threaten the male gaming landscape. But in a lot of ways, MMOs seem to represent a world where feminism has made genuine progress. And gaming has hardly been destroyed there.
 

Slavik81

Member
Zelda aiding Link in OoT is teaching him a song randomly or giving cryptic advice. She isn't that helpful.
She's the holder of the triforce of wisdom. Giving advice and using the occasional magic is pretty much her job.

I didn't really think about it before, but the fact that she suspected Gannondorf as a child also plays into that.

Women can be sexist, too. Plenty of female anti-feminists in the world.
Which is why 'run it past the handful of females on the dev team' is not a great solution. Turning a couple people into representatives for half the human race is not going to work.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
I don't think Lime's point is hijacking. It was a result about a discussion of self censorship in regards to a video that complains about what story tellers have used in videogames. So someone arguing in favor of actual censorship even if not specifying that it is for those things specifically in the context of such a discussion is relevant and does send certain messages.
 

pakkit

Banned
Dabookerman, I amended my post above regarding female devs.

These "tasteless or not" debates always are defined by personal opinion. I guess I expected a little more class from the studio, but given their torture porn it's not entirely unexpected.

What the fuck? So anyone to you who doesn't believe in patriarchy theory is anti women?

So these women are sexist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA&list=LLJC91ItgZYjDeNWwMSV_Y9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apP_9yklNLE

I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly warped view.

Wasn't trying to equate sexism with anti-feminism. Sorry if it was read that way. Feminist theory and Patriarchy theory are related, but not the same.

Watched a bit of those videos, stopped at "Men don't expect maternity leave."

Hmm, I like Typhon Blue's points. The "patriarchy" exists, no doubt about it. However from there you don't have to imbue yourself with the spirit of vengeance and embody ressentiment.

It's easy to cut down the "feminazi" stereotype.
 

unbias

Member
No, it's always a logical fallacy. It doesn't mean what you're arguing for isn't sound, but it does mean you're not arguing about it in a valid way. Maybe we're getting too Socratic here, I know I fallacy my way through arguments from time to time. Still, there is hate speech that is not protected and the world has not been thrown into the gyre. No talking about offing the Prez, for example.

You are obfuscating the talking point, I'm assuming purposely. I was directly talking about it in regards to art(where they do talk about killing the Prez). but fine if you want to pick nits, then I wasnt using a slippery slope argument, people do take advantage of the system to ostracize people who they dont agree with. Just because it was called a slippery slope, doesn't mean it is.
 

Lime

Member
I don't think Lime's point is hijacking. It was a result about a discussion of self censorship in regards to a video that complains about what story tellers have used in videogames. So someone arguing in favor of actual censorship even if not specifying that it is for those things specifically in the context of such a discussion is relevant and does send certain messages.

It kind of is hijacking, as the topic of the thread (minority representation in media) is not equal to hate speech, holocaust denials, yelling fire in a crowded theatre in terms of harm. The point was that freedom of speech simply isn't absolute, unless one disagrees that all people should not be held accountable for expressions that e.g. vilify and suppress an already marginalized minority.

Additionally, using the word 'censorship' in this discussion will also allow for people to misunderstand the arguments in this thread and begin saying that proponents advocating for better minority representation in video games are also advocating for censorship (which isn't true and a strawman).

So we are back to totalitarianism as a solution?

You're completely misunderstanding the discussion and you seem to repeat the flawed slippery slope argument.
 

Riposte

Member
What the fuck? So anyone to you who doesn't believe in patriarchy theory is anti women?

So these women are sexist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA&list=LLJC91ItgZYjDeNWwMSV_Y9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apP_9yklNLE

I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly warped view.

Hmm, I like Typhon Blue's points. The "patriarchy" exists, no doubt about it. However from there you don't have to imbue yourself with the spirit of vengeance and embody ressentiment.

You're completely misunderstanding the discussion and you seem to repeat the flawed slippery slope argument.

To be clear, I'm not saying the censorship will get worse, only that it is a despicable practice in itself.


EDIT: I can't take anyone who calls videogames "torture porn", with few exceptions, seriously. It is a simplification which shows not only a failure to grasp the joys of gaming, but also a Christrian morality at play which assumes "porn" (in other words gratification) is to be looked down upon.
 
An example brought up a lot in this thread is Ico. Ico is a story in which a boy rescues a girl. Stripped down that far, and it's a "damsel in distress" story. But Ico is better written than that. There are reasons in the story why the characters are in their situations, and it seems generally agreed on that it isn't a sexist construction.

It is why the suggestion has come up that damsel in distress should be "character in distress". Because looking at it that way might cause an author to stop and wonder why they're assuming the character in distress is a woman. Is it for an ignorant reason? An illogical reason, or a just plain lame reason. There is a piece of advice about writing from experienced authors: for every book you write, you need to read four. That's because exposure outside your own bubble expands what you know and challenges your assumptions. It keeps the creator from becoming self-blind and creatively stagnant.

Sure. Personally, with the DID thing, that to me is such a standard plot element, in games in particular, that you would almost be forced to do or say something interesting with it in order to use it.

But I don't think it needs to be cut from the literary landscape. And I don't think it automatically implies anything or has inbuilt negative connotations either. Context is everything with these "tropes".
 
Dabookerman, I amended my post above regarding female devs.

These "tasteless or not" debates always are defined by personal opinion. I guess I expected a little more class from the studio, but given their torture porn it's not entirely unexpected.

It's a "joke" that seems to fit well within its target audience.
I personally don't think any of these tropes will go away for as long male developers exist.

My personal concern is getting more women in games, and I think things are improving.
The main problem is though.. Every female game dev I know are fairly tom boyish. And as far as I know, most females aren't like that. So perhaps attracting every type of female to the world of games development is the challenge?
 

Lime

Member
To be clear, I'm not saying the censorship will get worse, only that it is a despicable practice in itself.

Just to also be clear, when you write the sentence 'So we are back to totalitarianism as a solution?' it allows for interpreting the meaning of your post as saying that censorship automatically leads to totalitarian/tyrannical consequences.

By the way, I'm curious: You don't think that people should not be held accountable for expressions that cause direct harm, e.g. hate speech or yelling fire in a crowded theatre?
 
It's a "joke" that seems to fit well within its target audience.
I personally don't think any of these tropes will go away for as long male developers exist.

My personal concern is getting more women in games, and I think things are improving.
The main problem is though.. Every female game dev I know are fairly tom boyish. And as far as I know, most females aren't like that. So perhaps attracting every type of female to the world of games development is the challenge?

That and the majority of people who play games on consoles remains men.
 
What the fuck? So anyone to you who doesn't believe in patriarchy theory is anti women?

So these women are sexist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA&list=LLJC91ItgZYjDeNWwMSV_Y9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apP_9yklNLE

I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly warped view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_qzGcxCAM8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
To me this video is much better and actually addresses Anita's video. I also tend to agree with the majority of her points including Anita using the Damsel in Distress to her advantage when she was being attacked by the 4Chaners.
 

unbias

Member
Just to also be clear, when you write the sentence 'So we are back to totalitarianism as a solution?' it allows for interpreting the meaning of your post as saying that censorship automatically leads to totalitarian/tyrannical consequences.

By the way, I'm curious: You don't think that people should not be held accountable for expressions that cause direct harm, e.g. hate speech or yelling fire in a crowded theatre?

In the form of art, do you think the movie maker should be held accountable for someone who tries to kill the president because they made a movie about killing the president?
 

pakkit

Banned
EDIT: I can't take anyone who calls videogames "torture porn", with few exceptions, seriously. It is a simplification which shows not only a failure to grasp the joys of gaming, but also a Christrian morality at play which assumes "porn" (in other words gratification) is to be looked down upon.
Torture porn is, strictly speaking, a subgenre of horror movies. It is meant to convey that a main draw of the movie is the hyper graphic violence (eg Hostel). I love what I've played of the God of War series, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that the decapitations, entrails, and bone breaking isn't one of its big claims to fame. It still fits within the "teenage" power fantasy, like Mortal Kombat or Manhunt.

I'm hardly conservative.
 

Terrell

Member
Torture porn is, strictly speaking, a subgenre of horror movies. It is meant to convey that a main draw of the movie is the hyper graphic violence (eg Hostel). I love what I've played of the God of War series, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that the decapitations, entrails, and bone breaking isn't one of its big claims to fame. It still fits within the "teenage" power fantasy, like Mortal Kombat or Manhunt.

I'm hardly conservative.

More to the point, the word "porn" is now being broken down by its intent. It comes from the Greek word for prostitute, which now holds an English verb definition of "devote to corruptive or unworthy purpose". It's being used as a term for entertainment that preys on base or primitive desires in a corruptive manner. Truthfully, it's not an elegant phrase.

"Deathsploitation" might be a better term.
 

Riposte

Member
Just to also be clear, when you write the sentence 'So we are back to totalitarianism as a solution?' it allows for interpreting the meaning of your post as saying that censorship automatically leads to totalitarian/tyrannical consequences.

By the way, I'm curious: You don't think that people should not be held accountable for expressions that cause direct harm, e.g. hate speech or yelling fire in a crowded theatre?

Before looking at specific examples, I'm perfectly fine with making the judgment that we should allow things that create harm if we find taking them away is more harmful. To me the "freedom of speech", as it is put, is too valuable to give up. We can apply this to any number of topics like invasive government security (if you want to talk about slippery slopes... lol), drugs, guns, etc and perhaps fall on different sides.

If you are asking if I'm okay with hate speech being allowed, that depends entirely what you mean by hate speech. The term is incredibly open to interpretation, as "speech" in this context is too. If we are talking literal speech (including written, directed, filmed, etc "speech", i.e. what "entertainment" is) which is limited to expression and not actions (such as those which could be attacked as discrimination), then yes, I would want it "allowed" (in a legal sense) in most cases. It is only when we cross the line into direct threatening with the real intention of violence (including the destruction of property, vandalism) do I believe it should be tackled by laws. This is because it has become a hate crime. Note I am not saying those who say things that get them in troubles in other ways (such as with their employers) should be protected.

As for yelling fire in a crowded theater, I don't see why that should be specifically illegal. Reprisals on a civil level may be in order though (suing for damages).

This is kind of an odd example to bring up given what has just been said:

The quote is used as an example of speech which is claimed to serve no conceivable useful purpose and is extremely and imminently dangerous, as they held distributing fliers in opposition to a military draft to be, so that resort to the courts or administrative procedures is not practical and expresses the permissible limitations on free speech consistent with the terms of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater



Torture porn is, strictly speaking, a subgenre of horror movies. It is meant to convey that a main draw of the movie is the hyper graphic violence (eg Hostel). I love what I've played of the God of War series, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that the decapitations, entrails, and bone breaking isn't one of its big claims to fame. It still fits within the "teenage" power fantasy, like Mortal Kombat or Manhunt.

I'm hardly conservative.

Your explanation here doesn't make it any less of a thoughtless simplification with the same implications. Additionally, there is nothing to say it is strictly a "teenage" power fantasy as opposed to an "adult" power fantasy. (God of War, Mortal Kombat, and Manhunt have been also enjoyed by adults, gore aspects and all.)

EDIT: Also your description of torture porn, strictly speaking, is pretty much incorrect. Hyper graphic violence is the not only requirement... there is also the defining "torture" element.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_qzGcxCAM8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
To me this video is much better and actually addresses Anita's video. I also tend to agree with the majority of her points including Anita using the Damsel in Distress to her advantage when she was being attacked by the 4Chaners.

I don't know, it's amazing to me that she fully believes that the notion of a damsel in distress is inherently mysogynistic - in other words coming from a place of hatred or dislike for women.

I think it's coming from the exact opposite place. However misguided you may think it is, the reason it's a woman in distress is probably because women mean more to men than most other things or people. It could be a child or your family, but a woman also injects an element of romance - particularly when she is still being pursued or fought for.

And protecting your child or family you can sort of take as read anyway for men. Once we get families, that's our life - we don't need to frame fantasies or fables around that notion. It's the search for a woman or love that inflames the imagination and makes us embark on that perilous quest if it is threatened.

So by framing narratives in this way, we are trying to give it a higher sense of significance and meaning than it might otherwise have. Granted, a higher sense of meaning to us, but that's because it's a story that matters to us. Perhaps that's selfish, only caring how the narrative reflects on you, but to me that's just part of the creative process, which is selfish by its nature.

I'm really talking in a way more general sense than just videogames now, but it's obviously all connected. Anyway, interesting.
 

Karkador

Banned
Back to the DID trope - can you think of developers handling the trope well? I think The Darkness used the set-up really well. SPOILERS AHEAD The player gets introduced to Jenny Romano, understands that she is the love interest of the main character (through wonderful soliloquies fed to the player during the loading screens), and even heads over for a date. If you want, you're allowed to sit through an entire movie with Jenny...as mundane as a real life date! And then she is kidnapped and you play through the first few levels trying to get her back...and then Starbreeze tears it all away and forces you to watch. It's one of those MEANINGFUL moments of violence in videogames, where you're upset at what's happening but you're too horrified to look away.

Err, wait, what? How is this a good thing? This is even more degrading, as she literally had no purpose in her life (as far as the story goes) than to get kidnapped and then killed for the hero of the story's motivation.

Sure. Personally, with the DID thing, that to me is such a standard plot element, in games in particular, that you would almost be forced to do or say something interesting with it in order to use it.

Look above at how it's used in The Darkness. They didn't say anything interesting with it. It's still the same old thing.
 

ultim8p00

Banned
I don't know, it's amazing to me that she fully believes that the notion of a damsel in distress is inherently mysogynistic - in other words coming from a place of hatred or dislike for women.

I think it's coming from the exact opposite place. However misguided you may think it is, the reason it's a woman in distress is probably because women mean more to men than most other things or people. It could be a child or your family, but a woman also injects an element of romance - particularly when she is still being pursued or fought for.

And protecting your child or family you can sort of take as read anyway for men. Once we get families, that's our life - we don't need to frame fantasies or fables around that notion. It's the search for a woman or love that inflames the imagination and makes us embark on that perilous quest if it is threatened.

So by framing narratives in this way, we are trying to give it a higher sense of significance and meaning than it might otherwise have. Granted, a higher sense of meaning to us, but that's because it's a story that matters to us. Perhaps that's selfish, only caring how the narrative reflects on you, but to me that's just part of the creative process, which is selfish by its nature.

I'm really talking in a way more general sense that just videogames now, but it's obviously all connected. Anyway, interesting.

I completely disagree. If this was the case, and if it had nothing to do with a male-oriented society, then you'd see guys in distress too. Why shouldn't a woman risk her life to save the man she loves? You rarely ever see things done that way though.
 

Riposte

Member
Err, wait, what? How is this a good thing? This is even more degrading, as she literally had no purpose in her life (as far as the story goes) than to get kidnapped and then killed for the hero of the story's motivation.

Look above at how it's used in The Darkness. They didn't say anything interesting with it. It's still the same old thing.

As far as the story goes, her purpose was to create an emotion. This is inline with the purpose of any character in a story (even the purpose of a story as a whole). I'm going to take a guess and assume some people were too busy being entertained (selfish, I know) by the drama to be offended by a female character being used in such an unfair way.
 

Kazerei

Banned
I don't know, it's amazing to me that she fully believes that the notion of a damsel in distress is inherently mysogynistic - in other words coming from a place of hatred or dislike for women.

I think it's coming from the exact opposite place. However misguided you may think it is, the reason it's a woman in distress is probably because women mean more to men than most other things or people. It could be a child or your family, but a woman also injects an element of romance - particularly when she is still being pursued or fought for.

And protecting your child or family you can sort of take as read anyway for men. Once we get families, that's our life - we don't need to frame fantasies or fables around that notion. It's the search for a woman or love that inflames the imagination and makes us embark on that perilous quest if it is threatened.

So by framing narratives in this way, we are trying to give it a higher sense of significance and meaning than it might otherwise have. Granted, a higher sense of meaning to us, but that's because it's a story that matters to us. Perhaps that's selfish, only caring how the narrative reflects on you, but to me that's just part of the creative process, which is selfish by its nature.

I'm really talking in a way more general sense than just videogames now, but it's obviously all connected. Anyway, interesting.

The portrayals of women as helpless and useless while men are the capable heroes ... yeah that's sexist.

It's been mentioned many times in this long thread, but the problem isn't wanting to protect people. It's the general attitude of man is hero, woman is the victim.
 

unbias

Member
I completely disagree. If this was the case, and if it had nothing to do with a male-oriented society, then you'd see guys in distress too. Why shouldn't a woman risk her life to save the man she loves? You rarely ever see things done that way though.

I would think a lot of it has to do with the idea that within society men are supposed to be strong, and that women and children should always be saved over the lives of men and if men don't do this, it is shameful.

By enlarge it is ok for women to show weakness and a need to be saved by men, but not vise versa. Women and children are treasured commodities, men are disposable resources. The connotations and stereotypes that get applied on women and men because of this, I believe is where most of the problems come from and why gender roles and near set in stone for most people.
 

frequency

Member
Perhaps something to bring up in this conversation:

Where does the current state of MMORPGs stand? It seems to have been come a tradition for these games to be gender neutral as far as the role of men and women - ridiculous costumes on female characters aside. MMOs are very popular with female players. The average MMO offers full player character gender customization. The storyline of the games is written to account for the player character being male or female.

Due to these factors, MMO plots are typically not about strong men running off to save women to prove their maleness and impress them. Despite the removal of this aspect, the male characters in MMOs don't seem neutered of their manliness. They are the same beefy aggro warriors as ever. The threats in MMOs are typically gender neutral - whatever bad guy or ancient evil threatens the world as a whole.

Within the typical MMO, an individual quest may involve a male or female character being in danger. But given the gender equality in most of the game, those instances don't stand out as a lazy stereotype being invoked.

This strikes me suddenly, as a common reaction to bringing up women in video games is a male game player grumbling about "feminists" causing trouble, as if they somehow threaten the male gaming landscape. But in a lot of ways, MMOs seem to represent a world where feminism has made genuine progress. And gaming has hardly been destroyed there.

This is a good point.
In World of Warcraft, (anecdotally) the most popular races with female players are: Blood Elves, Night Elves, and Draenei.

These races are also considered the most attractive by the male player base.

I think it's a good example of not catering 100% to men and not excluding women. But male players don't really lose anything from it either. You brought up an excellent point. I would say MMOs generally handle it very well. I think that is the kind of world we want. Not one where it's a complete role reversal and all games are now about strong female heroines and taking away everything that men like in games.

MMOs are super complex but have high female player counts because it's a genre where we're not relegated to prizes or tools for male character development.
 
I completely disagree. If this was the case, and if it had nothing to do with a male-oriented society, then you'd see guys in distress too. Why shouldn't a woman risk her life to save the man she loves? You rarely ever see things done that way though.

You'd have to ask women why they don't tend to frame their stories about love in that way. I think it's probably down to the fundamentally different way we approach love and romance as men and women. And different roles in life generally.

I don't think it's because we look down on women and they don't look down on us. Or we dislike them and they don't dislike us.

Edit: Not that women don't save men all the time, though. Probably way more than men save women.
 

Peagles

Member
Just watched this, really enjoyed it! I don't normally watch any videos online of people talking about games, but I'll be tuning into the next one.
 

Terrell

Member
I don't know, it's amazing to me that she fully believes that the notion of a damsel in distress is inherently mysogynistic - in other words coming from a place of hatred or dislike for women.

I'm still trying to find where this is said. Something can still be sexist without being misogynistic.


I'm starting to wish people would just drop it.

Not because I don't think this discussion should be happening, it very much should be.

But because the more I hear people in gaming forums speak about it, the less I want to be a part of the community as a whole. Some of the things I'm seeing and reading online have me revolted and ashamed to be a gamer in ways that I have NEVER experienced before. And being a gaymer, that's saying a fair bit.
 

Karkador

Banned
As far as the story goes, her purpose was to create an emotion. This is inline with the purpose of any character in a story (even the purpose of a story as a whole). I'm going to take a guess and assume some people were too busy being entertained (selfish, I know) by the drama to be offended by a female character being used in such an unfair way.

What it likely did was create a yawn. It's trite as hell and, sorry, but 'it's part of the story' is no better than amateur artist dismissing crappy artwork as 'their style'.
 

Lime

Member
In the form of art, do you think the movie maker should be held accountable for someone who tries to kill the president because they made a movie about killing the president?

You are obscuring the issue by invoking the problem of ascribing responsibility between two different agents, in addition to the problem of causality. Your example is not applicable in trying to disprove that e.g. public nazi demonstrations with anti-Semitic chants should be condemned in a liberal democracy.

If you want to discuss it further, you'll have to PM me.

This is kind of an odd example to bring up given what has just been said:

I appreciate the elaboration. The example may seem odd in terms of its historical circumstances, but as a thought scenario in itself it appeals to one's moral intuition that expression can cause harm to other people and thus is not exempt from accountability.
 

Riposte

Member
What it likely did was create a yawn. It's trite as hell and, sorry, but 'it's part of the story' is no better than amateur artist dismissing crappy artwork as 'their style'.

I think what you are doing is more along the lines of dismissing a fine piece of artwork because you don't like the way girls are depicted in it.
 

pixlexic

Banned
Ok after some time thinking about this I just complete disagree with her premise in this video.

And here is why.

A person playing a game .. no matter what gender is going to project themselves on to the character they are playing not the non playable characters.

If you are playing the hero then you ARE the hero.

While I am playing Tomb Raider I do not think of myself as a female. I think of myself as the hero. When you are play Super Mario you do not project yourself as the kidnapped peach.. you are Mario.
 
I'm still trying to find where this is said. Something can still be sexist without being misogynistic.


I'm starting to wish people would just drop it.

Not because I don't think this discussion should be happening, it very much should be.

But because the more I hear people in gaming forums speak about it, the less I want to be a part of the community as a whole. Some of the things I'm seeing and reading online have me revolted and ashamed to be a gamer in ways that I have NEVER experienced before. And being a gaymer, that's saying a fair bit.

The misogynist bit comes from the video in the post I was replying to, just to be clear. Not the original video. I kind of fell down the rabbit hole there for a bit.
 

Lime

Member
Ok after some time thinking about this I just complete disagree with her premise in this video.

And here is why.

A person playing a game .. no matter what gender is going to project themselves on to the character they are playing not the non playable characters.

If you are playing the hero then you ARE the hero.

While I am playing Tomb Raider I do not think of myself as a female. I think of myself as the hero. When you are play Super Mario you do not project yourself as the kidnapped peach.. you are Mario.

I don't think you understand the topic. It's not about projecting. It's about quantity and quality of representation. Women are not being represented adequately in terms of both quantity and quality. Your post actually counters what many, many developers think is the case: that white heterosexual males are incapable of empathizing with people different from themselves. You should probably address your post to the industry instead. :)

If you don't understand why this is a problem in terms of how people are affected by harmful or lack of representation, I'll have to repeat myself once again:

I apologize for simply quoting, but I think these sources put up good reasons why failing to include minorities isn't a simple non-issue.

(Dunlop, 2007, p. 409)

“the individual forms identity of self and identity of others through the images one views. As the individual views images that resemble or do not resemble the self, she or he develops a perception of one’s position in society. […] Those who are at the bottom of the various power hierarchies will be kept in their places in part through relative invisibility”

Shaw (2009, p. 231)

“in essence, lack of media representation is a way of saying: “Your concerns/thoughts/lifestyle and so on are/is not important.”

Couldry (2000, p. 2)

Cultural representation can be phrased as “power relations which affect who is represented and how, who speaks and who is silent.”

Galeotti (2002, p. 9)

“the feeling of shame, humiliation, and self-hatred experienced in connection with their differences, reinforced by the required public invisibility of their identity, prevents people from developing an adequate level of self-respect and self-esteem.”

Thus, I think it's reasonable to state that failing to include or represent minority members of society reinforces and reproduces marginalization and cultural invisibility of the minority in question.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Ok after some time thinking about this I just complete disagree with her premise in this video.

And here is why.

A person playing a game .. no matter what gender is going to project themselves on to the character they are playing not the non playable characters.

If you are playing the hero then you ARE the hero.

While I am playing Tomb Raider I do not think of myself as a female. I think of myself as the hero. When you are play Super Mario you do not project yourself as the kidnapped peach.. you are Mario.

In that case, it shouldn't matter to you if more games go out of their way to have female protagonists and avoid putting female characters in damsel-in-distress situations.

Also, if it shouldn't matter, why is it 99% one way in the first place?
 

Terrell

Member
Ok after some time thinking about this I just complete disagree with her premise in this video.

And here is why.

A person playing a game .. no matter what gender is going to project themselves on to the character they are playing not the non playable characters.

If you are playing the hero then you ARE the hero.

While I am playing Tomb Raider I do not think of myself as a female. I think of myself as the hero. When you are play Super Mario you do not project yourself as the kidnapped peach.. you are Mario.

Projection onto a character does not blank the slate of what the character represents. You don't completely wipe the slate clean.

This can be evidenced in the outcry over a particular scene in the new Tomb Raider, for example.
 

pixlexic

Banned
In that case, it shouldn't matter to you if more games go out of their way to have female protagonists and avoid putting female characters in damsel-in-distress situations.

Also, if it shouldn't matter, why is it 99% one way in the first place?

Right it doesn't matter to me in the slightest. If the game is good I would play a woman all day. Because what people feel is the triumph of being the hero. Not the gender of role.
 

deviljho

Member
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