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Microsoft mismanagement ofthird party partnerships leaving developers in a bad state?

If all this is true, especially with Platinum...MS is dangerously close to following in the footsteps of Nintendo and 3rd party relations.

It would be amazing if Nintendo does good with 3rd party relations with the Switch and MS starts to become Nintendo.

Not really because things like this happens all the time, it just this time is news that everyone knows.
What it MS need to learn is don't announce the game so early, so even it's cancelled, not many people knows it or hyped about it(though i doubt many people hyped Scalebound til today).
 

bigjig

Member
not the same situation, not even in the same league. IIRC 5 and Atlus took advantage of MS in the early OG XBOX days, they took the money and run.

Christ these kind of threads, we don't know anything for real besides the cancellation of Scalebound, we don't know the reasons, I don't think it's fair to blame MS for whatever happened with this without having factual pieces of information.

As other gaffers have already stated, unfortunately some games we get cancelled, some get cancelled during the early stages of development, others close to the final stages, and some others get resurrected (Rime), it's part of the industry.

What really upsets me is the way some people take this as something only MS do, and to some exent, some even take it like a personal attack, while they know nothing, but their bias leads them to pull the trigger so easily.

After this debacle, it's obvious MS should focus in their 3rd party relationship, they have to streghten them, this situation isn't good for any company.

Really? You got a source for that info on Atlas/Level 5 taking the money and running?
 

Endo Punk

Member
Kamiya knows how to hold a grudge. Expect it to be the last Game he does with MS

Doesn't Kamiya also hold a grudge with Sony? I mean he himself hasn't made a game on Playstation since Okami on PS2 over a decade go. He had a chance with Bayonetta but he opted for 360 version only while SEGA forced the creation of the PS3 version via outsourcing.

You'd think he would also hold a grudge with Nintendo considering he really wanted to make a Star fox game which he didn't himself get to but his studio did, and then Nintendo apparently focus grouped it to hell or something.

Hope Kamiya is well after this debacle but he really shouldn't burn bridges.
 

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
Platinum Games have delivered good work while working with many publishers over the last couple years - first time they work with MS and shit hits the fan. Yeah i dont believe Platinum was the issue....

MS probably didnt really know what they wanted and kept demanding a bunch of changes and PG to implement the newest thing they wanna push - like always online multiplayer, Windows 10 PC support, Crossplay etc. - once that didnt work out they probably started with more ridiculous demands to justify the game cancellation.

Hope Kamiya and the squad will recover from that shitshow and it doesnt have too much negative consequences for their future output.
You'd think he would also hold a grudge with Nintendo considering he really wanted to make a Star fox game which he didn't himself get to but his studio did, and then Nintendo apparently focus grouped it to hell or something.

Thats not how it works...he would hold a grudge if Nintendo told him to develop a new StarFox and then cancelled or dropped out at the last minute. Just because he is interested in working on a game doesnt mean that Nintendo needs to wait until he is free to develop/publish a first party project.

Even the Sony stuff is nothing compared to this....MS really fucked them over. Thats 4 year of one of Platinum Games prestige studio lost.
 
Let's not forget this when the game was originally announced.

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Net

Member
Doesn't Kamiya also hold a grudge with Sony? I mean he himself hasn't made a game on Playstation since Okami on PS2 over a decade go. He had a chance with Bayonetta but he opted for 360 version only while SEGA forced the creation of the PS3 version via outsourcing.

You'd think he would also hold a grudge with Nintendo considering he really wanted to make a Star fox game which he didn't himself get to but his studio did, and then Nintendo apparently focus grouped it to hell or something.

Hope Kamiya is well after this debacle but he really shouldn't burn bridges.
Mikami was the one with the Sony beef, not Kamiya.
 

robotrock

Banned
Why did Mikami have Sony beef? Never heard this before
Doesn't Kamiya also hold a grudge with Sony? I mean he himself hasn't made a game on Playstation since Okami on PS2 over a decade go. He had a chance with Bayonetta but he opted for 360 version only while SEGA forced the creation of the PS3 version via outsourcing.

You'd think he would also hold a grudge with Nintendo considering he really wanted to make a Star fox game which he didn't himself get to but his studio did, and then Nintendo apparently focus grouped it to hell or something.

Hope Kamiya is well after this debacle but he really shouldn't burn bridges.
Kamiya stated that he didn't want to make Star Fox anymore before Platinum got the gig.

Also, after Bayonetta PS3 came out performing like it did, he said that he wish he handled it.
 

Dlacy13g

Member
People seem to forget there are two sides to these contracts. Nobody is forcing anybody to make a deal with Microsoft and if they didn't like the terms or felt things were unfair / unrealistic before they signed they should not have agreed and signed.
 
We don't know the story yet.

It is way too easy to slate MS.

Perhaps Platinum could not get the job done? Who knows? Who is talking?

I highly doubt we will ever get the actual story. Not unless someone quits or we get an anonymous quote from somewhere that IGN or something puts out or worst case, if Platinum went out of business.

Platinum/Microsoft aren't going to do a press release saying their partner was horrible.
All we can do is hear bits and pieces of whispers from people who have connections.
 
Really? You got a source for that info on Atlas/Level 5 taking the money and running?

I heard about that long time ago, not saying this as a fact but Level 5 spent two years developing True Live Fantasy Online, they had lot of issues developing the game, specially due to the fact TLFO was a MMORPG, they didn't deliver and MS cancelled the game. They signed for an exclusive title which didn't deliver.

Atlus was paid much money to get some exclusives and MS only got SMT Nine, and again with development issues.

I'm not defending MS, or blaming other companies, it's just I rather think every situation is different from each other. While you have some failures (cancellation) such as: Scalebound, Fable Legends, Phantom Dust, True Live Fantsy Online, etc.. you also have some succeeds: Magatama, N.U.D.E, Otogi, Phantom Dust, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, etc..
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Managing the creative process is not easy. Like a lot of businesses, it takes a special skill set to sense when something special is in development, give the team enough rope to make it happen, and reign them in when their ambitions get too grandiose, I'm sure the temptation is always there to lean on them to make the game you imagine, not the game they know how to make, or to try using pressure tactics to tighten the timetable or budget. There's also ample evidence that it just doesn't work that way.

Microsoft is not just laying a trail of cancelled games, but of games that were forced out the door in really rough shape despite having a lot of potential. Recore and Perfect Dark Zero leap readily to mind. Chances are neither will ever be anything but a franchise-ending failure in gamers' minds.
 

JayDub

Member
Im off the Xbox train.

We've taken a lot of shit, but it was Forza 6's bullshit "Ultimate Edition" that broke me. The Ultimate Edition did not include the Car Pass. Oh, and the Car Pass doesn't guarantee you every car pack, because there are specialized car packs not included in the Car Pass.

It is $90 fucking dollars and with that, riddled with little annoying notification of micro transaction (oh, this cool car for $2, we'll just add it right here in the roster of selectable cars so you will know you're missing content every time you browse for cars) and you will never get the "complete" game.

Bull crap.
 

Zophar

Member
Microsoft has been fucking over studios they've either partnered with or acquired practically since day one of Xbox, so I'm shocked to see people here casting doubt on their blame in situations like this. There's mountains upon mountains of evidence that publishing with Microsoft Game Studios is an extremely risky proposition.
 
Funny how in most peoples' minds, Microsoft is at fault.... little to no admission of a relationship and the related dynamics that could lead to conflict.... human nature my friends... I find it hard to take anyone's speculation, from a "credible" source as the truth.

Asymmetrical power relations completely undermines this appeal to 'human nature'.

It's supremely shitty to withhold pay for any reason, let alone because you disagree with the people making the game.
 

KampferZeon

Neo Member
Some more stuff about Microsoft's management can also be found in Polygon's Final Fantasy 7 article which came out today (seen here.) Just go to section 3 titled the Aftermath, then go to the subject: Square staff reunites at Microsoft. It talks about the difficulties Mistwalker/FeelPlus had with Microsoft during the development of Lost Odyssey too. The whole article is a fascinating read.

thanks for the link and I found this quite interesting.

Microsoft has this interesting sort of hiring scheme where, even if you say you had $100 million in your budget, you would be capped to this thing called “headcount” and it would be completely independent of your budget. So you may only have a headcount for two full-time employees even though you have a massive budget, and you could not increase that. You’d have to essentially trade horses with some other team who’s willing to give up their headcount, and even then it’s still a precious commodity.

so much emphasis on micro management of projects.
no wonder why Microsoft is much poorer than Sony at managing the games business.

I always felt Sony because of its films and music business knows how to handle the games business better. Felt more like making a film, or publishing cds

whereas Microsoft is running XB like a software project. ( with bullets points and stuffs ... )
 
So, E3 2017 is the final straw, if they dont deliver on making Scorpio look like a good purchase and/or announce a good quantity of games then Im going away from Xbox. A shame since I went for the Xbox One ever since the thing was announced, but after the things they have done I am really close to my limit with them.
 
The saying in Silicon Valley for decades has been "Microsoft is a vampire."

It's a shame that game devs are just now learning what the Valley has known since the 1990's.
 

Head.spawn

Junior Member
Asymmetrical power relations completely undermines this appeal to 'human nature'.

It's supremely shitty to withhold pay for any reason, let alone because you disagree with the people making the game.

I know it sounds fucked it, but this it is probably the case that these were milestone payments; and that payment arrangement would've been put into place within the contract, right?
 
This isn't unique with Microsoft.

Sony did the same thing with SSM's Stig-directed new IP laying off a bunch of their talent, also with Playstation All Stars Battle Royale causing SuperBot Entertainment to leave the console industry, among many other instances.

This comparison needs to stop. Stig's game hadn't even been announced, trumpeted as a tent pole title at major industry events for nearly 3 years or given a release window. Your PlayStation All Stars example is also a strange one that doesn't really belong in this discussion.

This is the 3rd time Microsoft has cancelled a previously announced AAA game this generation. Technically the 4th, since whatever Black Tusk was working on was being heralded by them as something they wanted to define the generation, and that never got off the ground either. There's clearly a pattern here.

For all the flack I see people give Sony for announcing games too early, Microsoft has been just as bad if not worse.
 

KooopaKid

Banned
It's highly likely the fault is at MS.
The choice of U4.
Always changing mind for the latest trend. They would have added competitive deathmatch to The Last Guardian.
They have no vision or real love for games. Just wanting the biggest names and games without understanding what's good about them. They're tourists doing some shopping.
They're handling developers like Excel sheets.
You can't trust them on a creative vision because they have no sense of creativity.
Rare is next. Crackdown 3 won't release this year. If it does, it will be in bad shape or of a smaller scale.
 

GHG

Member
thanks for the link and I found this quite interesting.



so much emphasis on micro management of projects.
no wonder why Microsoft is much poorer than Sony at managing the games business.

I always felt Sony because of its films and music business knows how to handle the games business better. Felt more like making a film, or publishing cds

whereas Microsoft is running XB like a software project. ( with bullets points and stuffs ... )

They will give low headcount allowances because they don't want to take on the risk associated with hiring lots of new employees. It should be noted that in circumstances like that the budget can usually be used to hire contractors in a way of circumventing any headcount restrictions.

The primary reason you do not want to give companies huge head count allowances when embarking on projects like this is because your liabilities go beyond the duration of the project if they are permanent employees on your payroll.
 

Neff

Member
I was siding with PG last night, and subsequent smoke is continuing to support that. PG is proven to be very efficient with budgets and schedules, while MS has a precedent for mismanaging, getting premature cold feet and pulling plugs. It sounds like they fucked them. If they did, MS deserves to get heat for this, and they may have underestimated just how close PG and Kamiya are to the core gamer community.
 

Koobion

Member
The saying in Silicon Valley for decades has been "Microsoft is a vampire."

It's a shame that game devs are just now learning what the Valley has known since the 1990's.

I've heard that saying before as well. Microsoft's scummy behavior makes it hard to support them. So I don't anymore.
 

Lucifon

Junior Member
It takes 2 to tango. Without knowing the full story it does nobody any favours to jump to conclusions.

Playing devil's advocate - if you're paying someone the money to create a product and milestones along with quality marks keep getting missed I can only imagine you're going to be a little bit annoyed.
 

KampferZeon

Neo Member
They will give low headcount allowances because they don't want to take on the risk associated with hiring lots of new employees. It should be noted that in circumstances like that the budget can usually be used to hire contractors in a way of circumventing any headcount restrictions.

The primary reason you do not want to give companies huge head count allowances when embarking on projects like this is because your liabilities go beyond the duration of the project if they are permanent employees on your payroll.

sorry your attempt to find an excuse is just too weak. u already said it yourself they should find contractors.
the developer in the article explained it clearly headcount is a Microsoft cultural thing. at least square does not operate like that
 
A brief glimmer of hope in the early days of the 360 aside, I've always considered Microsofts involvement in the gaming industry as a harmful one.

There are of course stories of healthy, successful partnerships and masterpieces of gaming that have come out of them, but the whole company, not just the Xbox division, has a sordid history of out of control egos, petty selfishness and toxic, incompetent or often even deliberately malicious mismanagement.

I've said it before, but what sets Sony, MS and Nintendo apart more than anything when it comes to games is their backgrounds as companies, and how it affects their attitudes toward the medium.

Sony has a history of providing entertainment, and building products that convey artistic mediums to people in an at least luxurious feeling manner. Their creative output in film, TV, and particularly music shaped the PlayStation devision, and Sony has always treated game developers as commercial artists, and embraced the more experimental and speculative side of gaming because of it.

Nintendo is of course a toy company. Play is at the heart of what they see as games purpose, and while that has often limited their scope and style, means they end up supporting many small developers with just a fun idea and themselves churn out well crafted, fun, family friendly titles at a constant rate.

And then there's Microsoft.

The software giant, the only real name in PC's to most of the planet, the ruthless cut throat business that sees everything as a disposable software product to be sold on a platform they can control people's access to, where programmers are a dime a dozen, bullying, intimidation and personal egos have always been actively encouraged by upper management, and they're always chasing the next big thing that will replace what came before it and maximise their profit margins.

Microsoft are not in gaming for anything other than profit. Sure, it drives Sony and Nintendo too, but there's an underlying understanding that, whether it's as an art form or a toy, there's a fundamental relationship relationship between the creator and the consumer in games that goes beyond a simple numbers game of product to profit that MS simply lacks.

Apple are another example of the same. Apple have made it clear, time and again, that they do not give the slightest shit about gaming beyond what money it makes them. They've cultivated a toxic environment on mobile that lets festering free to pay, whale focused, addictive, low brow, race to the bottom shovelware drown out quality in favour of maximising revenue.

And the only difference between Apple and Microsoft, is that Apple are better at managing their brand image, and they don't feel the need to bother putting on a song and dance with their own gaming division to pretend they're an active, willing participant in the creative process.

Microsoft are never going to get, or even respect games. Individuals at the Xbox offices, sure, but the company itself, the people holding the purse strings and setting policy, they're what matters, and they will only ever have their own interests at heart, and those will always be at odds with what is undeniably a creative medium, and you'd have to be blind to not see all the evidence of that over the course of Xbox's history, Scalebound, and its ramifications for Platinum, are just the latest example, and won't be the last.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
I know it sounds fucked it, but this it is probably the case that these were milestone payments; and that payment arrangement would've been put into place within the contract, right?

It is highly likely they are milestone payments. What we don't know is how these are defined. Used properly they can enable a publisher to ensure developers are staying on track and not being wasteful with their investment. We have frequently seen the VG industry abuse them - Bethesda springs to mind - by setting arbitrary or unrealistic goals. It is impossible on current evidence to suggest which is happening here. However PG have a strong record of delivering on time whilst MS have a strong record of mismanaging development projects.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
This isn't unique with Microsoft.

Sony did the same thing with SSM's Stig-directed new IP laying off a bunch of their talent, also with Playstation All Stars Battle Royale causing SuperBot Entertainment to leave the console industry, among many other instances.

In what way is playstation all stars the same situation. The game was funded until it shipped. It just bombed upon release and Sony decided not to continue their relationship.

This is completely not the same as what is happening with MS and Platinum. Platinum got the rug pulled under them with no shipped game, and no chance to use the assets for another game because they don't own the IP.
 
sorry your attempt to find an excuse is just too weak. u already said it yourself they should find contractors.
the developer in the article explained it clearly headcount is a Microsoft cultural thing. at least square does not operate like that

Uhm.. actually he has a point, I work as a contractor for a big company which has a very limited headcount, therefore they can't hire internal employees, so they hire IT consultant companies for IT services..

Phantom Dust would have seriously been a system seller for me.

Isn't it still? It's still getting a nice port with improvements.
 

RedRum

Banned
Terrible situation, but I'm not going to point fingers yet until the smoke clears and we get more word. Sorry, I don't jump to conclusions.
 

Vinnk

Member
Say what you will about Nintendo (most of it justified). But they let Devil's Third and Tokyo Mirage Sessions finish development even though there was no hope that either of those games would come close to breaking even. If I was Nintendo I might have abandoned ship.

So devs that work with Nintendo have good impressions of them. Even if the games fail.
 
The blame is very likely at Microsoft's feet. Platinum is known for being an efficient developer that has at least a decent overall track record and some amazing titles, and these sorts of development issues from them are pretty much unheard of previously. Microsoft, on the other hand, has a track record of mishandling projects they're bankrolling, and the sources coming out of this debacle indicate that this is yet another case of that.

Like it or not, the evidence doesn't paint a good picture for Microsoft. Fuck those guys.
 

Head.spawn

Junior Member
Phantom Dust would have seriously been a system seller for me.

The remake is obviously gone... but the actual original game, Phantom Dust is coming out this year on XBO/Win10.

Not sure why people talk about it like it's gone. I'd rather have the rerelease of a known quantity than a reimagining of it which could be terrible.
 
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