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"My Weekend In America’s So-Called ‘Rape Capital’"

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D

Devolution

Member
samus i am said:
I've had friends that went to the bar and had their WATER ruffied. That's right, 100% sober and 10 minutes after ordering their drink they appeared very wasted.

She was not dressed like a whore, not flirting with guys and acting slutty, not drunk out of her mind drunk. Tell me, what was her mistake then? Trying to get out of the house to be social?

When are we as a society going to stop putting the burden on these women to not get raped? There should be no, "Well she should have..." EVER. The dudes that think rape is ok are the villains.
Let's focus on them and their actions.
Click to expand...

Realizing it's about the perps and not the victims also opens up a larger dialogue for male victims to come forward with their own stories. When talking of preventative measures one rests the idea on "well what did the victim fail to do" rather than "why is he/she raping in the first place"? And the latter question which Charle gave some light to is complicated and even more hostile ground than the former because a lot of it involves introspection in the daily and cultural attitudes that "feed the machine" so to speak. And you have to get into "male entitlement" a lot when it comes to that and some people aren't ready for that discussion if we can't get past the 101 of rape myths.
 
S

samus i am

Member
Devolution said:
Realizing it's about the perps and not the victims also opens up a larger dialogue for male victims to come forward with their own stories. When talking of preventative measures one rests the idea on "well what did the victim fail to do" rather than "why is he/she raping in the first place"? And the latter question which Charle gave some light to is complicated and even more hostile ground than the former because a lot of it involves introspection in the daily and cultural attitudes that "feed the machine" so to speak. And you have to get into "male entitlement" a lot when it comes to that and some people aren't ready for that discussion if we can't get past the 101 of rape myths.
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Absolutely correct. It might sound corny, but I really hope that there are gaffers out there right now that suddenly have a lightbulb over their head because of this thread. Forget about what the girl was wearing, or if she likes to take shots when partying. Why do these college kids have no qualms with rape in the first place? How can we properly educate them that slut shaming (as it's called) is wrong?
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
If someone read the OP and the first thing that popped into their head was "man, these women need to make sure they're not getting into these situations", they have a problem.
 
F

Future

Member
samus i am said:
I've had friends that went to the bar and had their WATER ruffied. That's right, 100% sober and 10 minutes after ordering their drink they appeared very wasted.

She was not dressed like a whore, not flirting with guys and acting slutty, not drunk out of her mind drunk. Tell me, what was her mistake then? Trying to get out of the house to be social?

When are we as a society going to stop putting the burden on these women to not get raped? There should be no, "Well she should have..." EVER. The dudes that think rape is ok are the villains.
Let's focus on them and their actions.
Click to expand...

I don't know anyone that would place blame on people that get ruffled. Especially in that situation. Some people are fucked up and will do bad things to others, rape among them.

However, there is something to be said for avoiding stupid situations that can turn out badly. That's more of a common sense thing, and applies to both sexes as well as many things beyond rape. People often can avoid terrible shit if they are careful. In the event something bad does happen, while the victim can never be blamed, their common sense may come into question. I don't believe admitting this is empowering rape culture or placing unnecessary burden on the victims in the slighest. It also doesn't apply to situations like the one quoted
 
D

Devolution

Member
Future said:
I don't know anyone that would place blame on people that get ruffled. Especially in that situation. Some people are fucked up and will do bad things to others, rape among them.

However, there is something to be said for avoiding stupid situations that can turn out badly. That's more of a common sense thing, and applies to both sexes as well as many things beyond rape. People often can avoid terrible shit if they are careful. In the event something bad does happen, while the victim can never be blamed, their common sense may come into question. I don't believe admitting this is empowering rape culture or placing unnecessary burden on the victims in the slighest. It also doesn't apply to situations like the one quoted
Click to expand...

It focuses attention on the victim. The victim other than the obvious (being the victim) is not the issue here and never really has been. The issue has and always will be the rapist. That's where the attention should go. When talking about precautions and prevention on behalf of the victim how much time have we spent erasing the rapist in each of these scenarios?
 
F

Future

Member
Devolution said:
It focuses attention on the victim. The victim other than the obvious (being the victim) is not the issue here and never really has been. The issue has and always will be the rapist. That's where the attention should go.When talking about precautions and prevention on behalf of the victim how much time have we spent erasing the rapist in each of these scenarios?
Click to expand...

Whenever there is a victim of anything there is always talk of precautions and prevention. If someone gets mugged, there will be discussion on how one can avoid this. There will be also discussion on poor decision making that may lead to getting mugged. If one makes these poor decisions and then gets mugged, many would mention this fact even though they truly are not to blame. Should we avoid this conversation to put more attention on the mugger?

I know the issue is sensitive, because unlike mugging there is actually a defense force for rapists. But this is why there will always be lots of discussion on this topic, because like in the example above its hard to ignore the common sense angle
 
D

Devolution

Member
Future said:
Whenever there is a victim of anything there is always talk of precautions and prevention. If someone gets mugged, there will be discussion on how one can avoid this. There will be also discussion on poor decision making that may lead to getting mugged. If one makes these poor decisions and then gets mugged, many would mention this fact even though they truly are not to blame. Should we avoid this conversation to put more attention on the mugger?

I know the issue is sensitive, because unlike mugging there is actually a defense force for rapists. But this is why there will always be lots of discussion on this topic, because like in the example above its hard to ignore the common sense angle
Click to expand...

Why is it always more important to lecture women on what they should be doing to avoid rape than to talk to men about the fact that they do not have the right to women's bodies without express consent?
 
Amibguous Cad

Amibguous Cad

Member
Volimar said:
I've never understood the hook up lifestyle. STI's, you never know what kind of person you're really going home with, and now rapists and women that falsely accuse on the rise. A night of sex just isn't worth it.



That said, it seems like the best way to protect yourself is to record your entire encounter...
Click to expand...

Silly Volimar, only sluts let themselves get recorded during sex. If she did that, surely she deserves what's coming to her!
 
S

Slavik81

Member
Devolution said:
Why is it always more important to lecture women on what they should be doing to avoid rape than to talk to men about the fact that they do not have the right to women's bodies without express consent?
Click to expand...
Is the problem really just that rapists just don't know consent is required? Personally, I think just informing people of that fact would be insufficient.
 
S

Slavik81

Member
Devolution said:
Why is it always more important to lecture women on what they should be doing to avoid rape than to talk to men about the fact that they do not have the right to women's bodies without express consent?
Click to expand...
Wait, wait, wait, maybe I missed something. I was going to say that you should probably instead explain your standards of consent to them. But I think you included it here by saying express consent.

That's an astoundingly high bar, and I don't agree that's the correct place to draw the line, but I can understand your case now. I agree that could potentially be effective, under a certain set of assumptions about why this occurs.
 
H

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Devolution said:
Why is it always more important to lecture women on what they should be doing to avoid rape than to talk to men about the fact that they do not have the right to women's bodies without express consent?
Click to expand...

It's not.

And doing one doesn't preclude you from doing the other.
 
M

Mumei

Member
Slavik81 said:
Is the problem really just that rapists just don't know consent is required? Personally, I think just informing people of that fact would be insufficient.
Click to expand...

To be sure, there are probably rapists who wouldn't be dissuaded by being told "Sex with someone who doesn't want to is rape." But despite how obvious that sounds, there are men who don't appear to know that, and for whom connecting the two might help.

To wit:

What's wrong with the date-rape debate is that until recently men were not included in the discussion. This changed when UCLA psychologist Neil Malamuth surveyed male students' "attraction to sexual aggression." In his research, between 16 and 20 percent of the male respondents said they would commit rape if they could be certain of getting away with it. That's one in six. When Malamuth changed the word "rape" to "force a woman to have sex," between 36 percent and 44 percent said they would - as long as they could be certain they wouldn't be caught. In another study, 15 percent of college men said they actually had used force at least once to obtain intercourse - a rate which does seem to corroborate the statistics provided by women.

The question for us, then, is why? Why would nearly two of every five college males in this study commit sexual assault if they believed they could get away with it? For one thing, it has to do with some distorted ideas about women and sex. As we have seen, many men subscribe to what sexual assault counselors call "date rape myths" - that women want sex just as much as men do but are socialized to say no even if they mean yes; that women like to be forced to have sex; that drunk women are "fair game". In some interesting research in Germany, psychologists have found that "as long as rape myths are not openly challenged in social interactions, men who endorse rape myths may assume that their own beliefs are shared by many others." These distortions can lead men to think that a sexual assault is simply a sort of after-the-fact change of mind by a girl who really did want to, but then thought better of it.

As we have also seen, for many guys the drive to score is a male-male competitive drive, a sort of "keeping up with the Joneses" around sex. Guys' incessant predation turns out to be a form of compensation - a way for guys to keep up with impossibly high, but imagined, rates of sexual activity.​

I've also typed another excerpt in another post in that topic I linked to above; it also talks about the central problem that guys simply don't have respect for women's bodies: "When she sort of came to a little bit, she was really upset and started crying and asked why I had done that. I think I said something like, "because you were so pretty" or some bullshit, but really it was because, well, because I was drunk and wanted to get laid. And she was, like, there." Bill told this story to the author of the book. Why does Bill not realize that having sex with an unconscious girl is rape? Why does Bill believe that he has an implicit right to access of her body?

This is the conversation we need to be having, not telling women for the umpteenth time that they need to be careful. Why do so many men have these attitudes towards sex and women? And why do so many men choose to be complicit in their silence, as in the first excerpt in the other post?

charlequin said:
Also, constant vigilance is exhausting -- living under the threat of constant violence drastically reduces people's quality of life, life expectancy, and level of health even if they never become a victim of said violence directly themselves. The status quo that eternal vigilance leads to is one where men need to be careful or else nothing particularly bad will probably happen to them, while women need to be careful or else they will be subject to traumatizing and violent personal violation. Even if that's better, it's still a horribly and unacceptably awful state to accept as part of a civilized society.
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Perfect!

There was actually a post kame-sennin made in a topic about the realities of being a black male in America that described this in detail:


kame-sennin said:
For the record, I don't think either of you are being snarky.

Flying Below Radar: Race, Privilege and the Evidence of Things Not Felt

But here’s what I know for sure, and what I hope all of us are willing to consider. Whether or not those officers were hoping to be able to pull over a man of color, and whether or not they would have done so, had I been such a man, isn’t really the important thing. What matters is that at no point would I, a white man, ever have to fear as I travelled that or any other interstate or road anywhere in my country, that my color alone might trigger sufficient suspicion in the eyes of law enforcement so as to warrant a stop, even when I had done nothing illegal. That is not a luxury possessed by anyone who is black or Latino in this country — their country — and that matters.

Had I been a man of color, heading to Delaware that day for a speech corresponding to what has now become a week-long commemoration of the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday — a possibility to be sure, given that most speakers for such events are people of color — how might the incident have differed? I don’t mean differed in the sense that I would have necessarily been pulled over. Again, maybe they weren’t looking for a black person. Maybe they were looking for a white female who had just robbed a bank and escaped in a black Yukon. But how might it have differed psychologically and even physiologically, as I, the black man, glanced into my rear-view and spied the police cruiser advancing on me at a high rate of speed? As I saw it pull even with me and then stay there? As I looked to my left and saw the white man with the badge, the gun, and the full authority of the state behind him, staring into my eyes, calculating in that moment whether I was the one, wondering if perhaps I might have a wheel-well filled with drugs, or a gun under the seat despite nothing but my skin to even remotely imply that either of these things might be true?

No matter how much money I might have, what size home, what kind of job, what beautiful and perfectly functional family, or my level of education, were I a black man in that situation (or a Latino in this era of generalized suspicion towards brown folks as de facto undocumented) everything would have been different, from my heart rate to the anxiety-related activity in my amygdala to the tightening of my muscles to the lump in my throat. And while these may appear to most whites as momentary discomforts with no larger import, imagine those kinds of experiences happening not once or twice, but regularly over a year, two years, a life. Imagine the uncertainty, the trepidation, the second-guessing of every glance, comment, or stare, made necessary by a lifetime lived in self-defense mode, the need for keen observation and interpretation of the most mundane interracial encounters made as critical to your safety and survival as nutrition, as vital as love.

See, that’s what race means, even now, and that is what (among so many other things) gives the lie to all claims of post-raciality made by those who refuse to feel what people of color are all too willing to tell them, if only they could hear. That some must contend with almost daily reminders that they are perpetual outsiders, perpetual suspects, perpetually in need of proving their belonging — indeed their very humanity — while others need not concern themselves with such things, leaves the latter with an edge, however subtle, and the former with a weighty and pernicious hindrance, the consequences of which cannot be overstated. To know that one can not only drive without subjecting oneself to presumptions that one is less-than, but also apply for jobs or loans while knowing the same, or raise one’s hand in class, hoping to demonstrate one’s brilliance to the teacher, similarly secure in the knowledge that that teacher will not ever see the hand as belonging to a walking, talking stereotype of incapacity matters. In a society as fully in thrall to bloodthirsty competition as ours, such an edge can make all the difference. It frees up cognitive space for problem solving rather than worry, and for confidence rather than self-doubt.

That advantage — one might even say, privilege — of being seen first as an individual rather than as the member of a defective and problematic group, can even be the difference between life and death. And here I am not merely referring to the way in which so many people of color have been killed by police who saw their cell phones, keys, or merely black skin as evidence of danger and shot first, only to ask questions never. Here I am referring to the way that black and brown folks who are fortunate enough not to go the way of Sean Bell, or Amadou Diallo or so many others, nonetheless have their lives shortened by the racialized stresses that flow from life lived as a problem.

Years of research about which most have no awareness — because it doesn’t make the news — tells us that the daily coping with racialization, which people of color learn to do from an early age, but which whites rarely if ever experience, leaves scars. It contributes to the excess release of stress hormones in the black and brown body, causing something called allostatic load — a reference to the short-circuiting of the body’s natural defenses against anxiety-producing events and traumas. That allostatic load then corresponds to higher blood pressure, higher rates of heart disease, and early death. The research has found that even affluent black folks have higher markers for allostatic load than poor whites, despite the real stresses that the latter contend with each day.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Constant vigilance is exhausting and unhealthy and the onus shouldn't be put on the person dealing with these issues; it should be about changing things so they - or we, I suppose - don't have to.
 
C

coldvein

Banned
i'm always vigilant about my own safety, i don't find it too exhausting. i hope someday there is a society where people dont have to be, but with human nature what it is i dont believe that day will ever come.
 
S

SquiddyCracker

Banned
What's wrong with the date-rape debate is that until recently men were not included in the discussion. This changed when UCLA psychologist Neil Malamuth surveyed male students' "attraction to sexual aggression." In his research, between 16 and 20 percent of the male respondents said they would commit rape if they could be certain of getting away with it. That's one in six. When Malamuth changed the word "rape" to "force a woman to have sex," between 36 percent and 44 percent said they would - as long as they could be certain they wouldn't be caught. In another study, 15 percent of college men said they actually had used force at least once to obtain intercourse - a rate which does seem to corroborate the statistics provided by women.

The question for us, then, is why? Why would nearly two of every five college males in this study commit sexual assault if they believed they could get away with it? For one thing, it has to do with some distorted ideas about women and sex. As we have seen, many men subscribe to what sexual assault counselors call "date rape myths" - that women want sex just as much as men do but are socialized to say no even if they mean yes; that women like to be forced to have sex; that drunk women are "fair game". In some interesting research in Germany, psychologists have found that "as long as rape myths are not openly challenged in social interactions, men who endorse rape myths may assume that their own beliefs are shared by many others." These distortions can lead men to think that a sexual assault is simply a sort of after-the-fact change of mind by a girl who really did want to, but then thought better of it.

As we have also seen, for many guys the drive to score is a male-male competitive drive, a sort of "keeping up with the Joneses" around sex. Guys' incessant predation turns out to be a form of compensation - a way for guys to keep up with impossibly high, but imagined, rates of sexual activity.
Click to expand...

Maybe not forced, but I've heard plenty of people talking about pushing onwards through resistance on so on, that she might be saying no with her mouth but yes with her body, etc.
While that might be true in some cases, that someone is resisting, assuming that is the general case is kinda like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU
 
D

dinazimmerman

Incurious Bastard
Do rapists really believe they're not rapists? Or do they just deny being rapists when asked? When a guy says "oh my friends told me women always say no even when they want it," do actually believe that about women? Or is it just a ex-post justification for their behavior? If they really believe this stuff, then raising awareness should work, as it will correct their misperceptions. Will raising awareness work if it's just excuses and bullshit? Maybe rapists don't like thinking of themselves as rapists, so when we finally make them realize that their justifications are bullshit, they'll have a harder time doing what they do without a guilty conscience (or they'll make up new justifications). If rapists realize what they're doing, don't care, and are just making up excuses to maintain their reputation and not get charged with anything, then I don't see how spreading awareness will work.

It's just a tough situation. It's hard to "change hearts and minds," i.e. eliminate rape culture by spreading awareness, especially when rapists benefit from not listening to any of it. It's rare for universities not to inform their students about date rape nowadays I think, but the problem still persists. So that supports the idea that combating rape culture by spreading awareness is difficult. Rapists (and in general people opposed to the campaign to spread awareness) just end up framing the issue differently or ignoring the message (there are many examples in this thread!). I think the surest way we could produce a decline in rape is making the probability of getting caught and punished higher, i.e. changing external rather than internal (moral) incentives. But that's also difficult. It relies on women reporting rape more often than they currently do. Are there policies out there that could improve our chances at catching rapists?
 
M

Mumei

Member
SquiddyBiscuit said:
Maybe not forced, but I've heard plenty of people talking about pushing onwards through resistance on so on, that she might be saying no with her mouth but yes with her body, etc.
While that might be true in some cases, that someone is resisting, assuming that is the general case is kinda like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU
Click to expand...

I recently discovered that an online friend (who I've known since around 2004) was an aspiring (though not yet actual) pick-up artist trying to learn the game. A sample from the conversation:


(3:49:14 AM) Him: My buddy wasn't sitting around watching disney movies with her, he was blowing through resistance on the first date and not answering her texts.
(3:49:28 AM) Mumei: ... blowing through resistance
(3:49:30 AM) Mumei: ?
(3:49:40 AM) Him: Women have something called the anti-slut defense
(3:49:50 AM) Him: it can go up early in an interaction when she feels attraction for a male.
(3:50:15 AM) Him: I know you're instantly thinking about rape but it's not like that at all.
(3:50:27 AM) Mumei: No, it's actually about what I thought
(3:50:47 AM) Mumei: Most pick-up guides posit interactions with women as a sort of
(3:50:48 AM) Him: Their anti-slut defense will go up early on if the guy starts moving too fast, or late on when she gets second thoughts about sex.
(3:50:50 AM) Mumei: predatory game
(3:51:02 AM) Mumei: built around breaking down female resistance to male overtures
(3:51:07 AM) Mumei: in the interest of "scoring"
(3:51:24 AM) Mumei: the point isn't really about a relationship or anything long-term after all; the point is to get laid
(3:51:26 AM) Him: and most feminist rhetoric has told girls that having sex with a man they find attractive is horrible
(3:51:33 AM) Mumei: that
(3:51:34 AM) Mumei: uh
(3:51:35 AM) Mumei: isn't
(3:51:40 AM) Him: well yeah PUArtistry is about getting laid
(3:51:51 AM) Him: but it can be used to develop lasting relationships too
(3:52:09 AM) Him: relationships don't work without sex fyi, so you dismissing the desire for it is telling
(3:52:36 AM) Mumei: I think that starting off your putative relationship on a bedrock of lies seems like a less than stellar idea
(3:52:42 AM) Mumei: I'm not dismissing the desire for it
(3:52:45 AM) Him: It's not lies.
(3:52:50 AM) Mumei: You're misreading me if you think that's the case
(3:52:56 AM) Him: If you remain congruent to yourself it's not lies.
(3:53:06 AM) Him: You're just presenting yourself in the best and most attractive way possible.
(3:53:14 AM) Him: Unless you think it's lying for a woman to wear a pushup bra and makeup.
(3:53:46 AM) Him: You act like the desire for sex is somehow a base and unimportant or stupid thing as a motivating factor.
(3:54:03 AM) Mumei: Nope
(3:54:09 AM) Mumei: That's not my intent, at any rate
(3:54:34 AM) Mumei: What do you tell a girl
(3:54:38 AM) Mumei: in order to break down resistance
(3:54:48 AM) Him: I am far from a practiced pick up artist
(3:55:02 AM) Mumei: I don't mean you
(3:55:05 AM) Mumei: I mean in the abstract
(3:55:11 AM) Him: There are several ways
(3:55:29 AM) Him: A lot of resistance is "I can't believe I'm doing this. This never happens."
(3:55:37 AM) Him: So you just repeat it "I know me neither."
(3:55:57 AM) Him: Some of it is "Wait we should slow down."
(3:55:58 AM) Him: That's dealt with by saying "Okay, just tell me to stop when it isn't feeling good anymore."
(3:56:27 AM) Mumei: So let me get this straight
(3:56:29 AM) Him: and if she still stops you there, that means you have made a mistake and you can do several things, like go cold on her or something else that I don't remember.
(3:56:36 AM) Mumei: You think that isn't lying?
(3:56:42 AM) Mumei: I mean sure
(3:56:49 AM) Mumei: It might not be a lie the very first time
(3:56:52 AM) Him: Her ASD is lying to her.
(3:57:23 AM) Mumei: It's talking about predatory sex
(3:57:25 AM) Mumei: what you're describing
(3:57:29 AM) Mumei: and party rape
(3:57:36 AM) Mumei: which luckily you haven't described yet
(3:57:38 AM) Him: lol
(3:58:05 AM) Him: I'm not saying you're doing it, but the desire to compare PUA to rapists comes so often.
(3:58:27 AM) Mumei: I don't think that they are like rapists
(3:58:35 AM) Him: "He made me so attracted to him and he wasn't willing to commit the rest of his life to me, IT WAS RAPE!"
(3:58:55 AM) Mumei: I think that the comparison comes because the pick-up mentality constructs sex in the same way a rapist does
(3:59:07 AM) Him: Feminism has also produced the particularly odious false-rape accusation culture that you should be especially angry with because of how it harms actual rape claims.

I would hope (though I know someone is going to disagree) that everyone can see how attitudes like that can easily lead to rape because some moron bought into that nonsense about blowing through resistance or anti-slut defenses or believing that the only way a woman wouldn't want to have sex with you after your Jedi PUA tricks is because you fucked up, and not just for one of a million other reasons.
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
Goya said:
Do rapists really believe they're not rapists? Or do they just deny being rapists when asked? When a guy says "oh my friends told me women always say no even when they want it," do actually believe that about women? Or is it just a ex-post justification for their behavior? If they really believe this stuff, then raising awareness should work, as it will correct their misperceptions. Will raising awareness work if it's just excuses and bullshit? Maybe rapists don't like thinking of themselves as rapists, so when we finally make them realize that their justifications are bullshit, they'll have a harder time doing what they do without a guilty conscience (or they'll make up new justifications). If rapists realize what they're doing, don't care, and are just making up excuses to maintain their reputation, then I don't see how spreading awareness will work.

It's just a tough situation. It's hard to "change hearts and minds," i.e. eliminate rape culture by spreading awareness, especially when rapists benefit from not listening to any of it. It's rare for universities not to inform their students about date rape nowadays I think, but the problem still persists. So that supports the idea that combating rape culture by spreading awareness is difficult. I think the surest way we could produce a decline in rape is making the probability of getting caught and punished higher, i.e. changing external rather than internal (moral) incentives. But that's also difficult. It relies on women reporting rape more often than they currently do. Are there policies out there that could improve our chances at catching rapists?
Click to expand...

Anecdotally, I would say that many people who commit rape don't believe that they're committing rape.

Recently my daughter's high school had workshops on domestic violence, rape and other prevalent social issues. Having an interest due to wanting to protect my daughter, I chaperoned a discussion with a small group of young men that was led by a police detective. He asked them to define rape. Nearly all of them agreed that rape consists of forcefully and brutally taking the body of someone else while the victim protested. None of them had considered that if they didn't have express consent from the other person to have sex that they could be raping that person. It was explained to them that many people feel fear when pressured to have sex and don't say no because they're afraid to. So they should never take a lack of outright refusal as a yes. It's unfortunate that so many people believe that a lack of a no is the same as a yes.

Society is failing our young people by not educating them about this stuff. While precaution for personal safety is something that's a good idea for everyone, it is not practical to assume that a victim can prevent every bad thing from happening.
 
S

SquiddyCracker

Banned
Mumei said:
I recently discovered that an online friend (who I've known since around 2004) was an aspiring (though not yet actual) pick-up artist trying to learn the game. A sample from the conversation:


CONVO

I would hope (though I know someone is going to disagree) that everyone can see how attitudes like that can easily lead to rape because some moron bought into that nonsense about blowing through resistance or anti-slut defenses or believing that the only way a woman wouldn't want to have sex with you after your Jedi PUA tricks is because you fucked up, and not just for one of a million other reasons.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't see these kinda attitudes not affecting rape numbers. The PUA community is practically taking various rapist sentiments and thoughts that most people probably ignore, and then integrates them into bizarre theories about women to make even shadier strategies legit.
 
D

dinazimmerman

Incurious Bastard
ReBurn said:
Anecdotally, I would say that many people who commit rape don't believe that they're committing rape.

Recently my daughter's high school had workshops on domestic violence, rape and other prevalent social issues. Having an interest due to wanting to protect my daughter, I chaperoned a discussion with a small group of young men that was led by a police detective. He asked them to define rape. Nearly all of them agreed that rape consists of forcefully and brutally taking the body of someone else while the victim protested. None of them had considered that if they didn't have express consent from the other person to have sex that they could be raping that person. It was explained to them that many people feel fear when pressured to have sex and don't say no because they're afraid to. So they should never take a lack of outright refusal as a yes. It's unfortunate that so many people believe that a lack of a no is the same as a yes.

Society is failing our young people by not educating them about this stuff. While precaution for personal safety is something that's a good idea for everyone, it is not practical to assume that a victim can prevent every bad thing from happening.
Click to expand...

When asked, rapists could define rape in a way that conveniently excludes them, not necessarily because they're ignorant of the harm they've caused but because they don't want to feel guilty about it or acquire a bad reputation.

Also, in my post, I was mainly discussing rapists who deny that it's rape to have sex with a woman who's denied them consent or hasn't physically put up "much" of a fight or who is drunk/passed out and can't give consent.
 
C

coldvein

Banned
ReBurn said:
So they should never take a lack of outright refusal as a yes. It's unfortunate that so many people believe that a lack of a no is the same as a yes.
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it's true, most people don't think of it that way. i don't really think of it that way.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Future said:
However, there is something to be said for avoiding stupid situations that can turn out badly.
Click to expand...

To demonstrate a bit of the objection people have in this thread: this article generated one page of discussion of the article and the problems it discusses specifically, followed by five pages of discussion of what women can do to avoid rape. Can you see why that's disproportionate?

coldvein said:
i'm always vigilant about my own safety, i don't find it too exhausting.
Click to expand...

Then I can guarantee you are not in a position to need to be vigilant in the fashion or to the degree that we are discussing here.
 
F

Future

Member
charlequin said:
To demonstrate a bit of the objection people have in this thread: this article generated one page of discussion of the article and the problems it discusses specifically, followed by five pages of discussion of what women can do to avoid rape. Can you see why that's disproportionate?



Then I can guarantee you are not in a position to need to be vigilant in the fashion or to the degree that we are discussing here.
Click to expand...

In this case, isn't that fueled by the fact that in the article itself mentions women quotes saying that some chicks help provoke the rapist? Naturally the discussion will move there, as that is more interesting to talk about.

These discussions always breed two extremes. People that want to claim victims have no liability and any posts claiming so empower rape culture. And people that say the opposite, that victims put themselves in shitty situations and shouldn't be surprised when they become a victim, as it is their fault. For some reason it's hard for people to accept a middle ground: you should be able to mention the victim made some mistakes that led to disaster, while also feeling sorry for the victim and condemning rapists as a whole

And of course since there are a bunch of dudes on this forum, the concept of a girl crying rape for no reason is a top offense around these parts. As mentioned in my first post on this page, there is no debate when someone gets their drink spiked as clearly the rapist was intent on committing the crime. A drunk girl making foolish decisions however, and a drunk guy acting upon is usually where the debate is focused.
 
D

Devolution

Member
Future said:
In this case, isn't that fueled by the fact that in the article itself mentions women quotes saying that some chicks help provoke the rapist? Naturally the discussion will move there, as that is more interesting to talk about.

These discussions always breed two extremes. People that want to claim victims have no liability and any posts claiming so empower rape culture. And people that say the opposite, that victims put themselves in shitty situations and shouldn't be surprised when they become a victim, as it is their fault. For some reason it's hard for people to accept a middle ground: you should be able to mention the victim made some mistakes that led to disaster, while also feeling sorry for the victim and condemning rapists as a whole

And of course since there are a bunch of dudes on this forum, the concept of a girl crying rape for no reason is a top offense around these parts. As mentioned in my first post on this page, there is no debate when someone gets their drink spiked as clearly the rapist was intent on committing the crime. A drunk girl making foolish decisions however, and a drunk guy acting upon is usually where the debate is focused.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's the problem. Sure. Not the entitlement these college men feel.
 
G

grumble

Member
charlequin said:
To demonstrate a bit of the objection people have in this thread: this article generated one page of discussion of the article and the problems it discusses specifically, followed by five pages of discussion of what women can do to avoid rape. Can you see why that's disproportionate?
Click to expand...

It definitely is an issue. Women being careful with the understanding that there are bad guys out there is an obvious thing to do, and it's a fact of our culture and pretty much every culture I can think of that rapists are out there.

The discussion on exactly what constitutes rape is an interesting one. If someone 'goes along with it' out of fear or a lack of assertiveness, then that's clearly an issue of education for both sides of the fence, particularly males who should focus on getting a 'yes' instead of not getting a stop sign.

For the bastards out there who roofie people or people who use force, they aren't interested in shades of grey; they know what they're doing is bad and don't care. They don't need awareness training, they need castration.
 
A

Aselith

Member
Silver_key said:
It's better than date rape. Of course, I was stretching the bounds of exaggeration there....

On the other hand, if you're just on the prowl for sex then yeah, take the "no" and walk away before it turns into stalking or she gets a few more mixed (signals) drinks in her. If you want more, then just be sensible about things and have a heart.
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This seriously is insane. If a girl is comfortable telling you no but still wants to date, that means she's not ready for the sex yet. You should be happy that she's willing to tell you no because that means she's NOT going to be the one to accuse you of date rape.

Cutting off all ties would be a horrible thing to do unless you only date girls that are DTF the first time out which makes you a bad person.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Future said:
In this case, isn't that fueled by the fact that in the article itself mentions women quotes saying that some chicks help provoke the rapist? Naturally the discussion will move there, as that is more interesting to talk about.

These discussions always breed two extremes. People that want to claim victims have no liability and any posts claiming so empower rape culture. And people that say the opposite, that victims put themselves in shitty situations and shouldn't be surprised when they become a victim, as it is their fault. For some reason it's hard for people to accept a middle ground: you should be able to mention the victim made some mistakes that led to disaster, while also feeling sorry for the victim and condemning rapists as a whole

And of course since there are a bunch of dudes on this forum, the concept of a girl crying rape for no reason is a top offense around these parts. As mentioned in my first post on this page, there is no debate when someone gets their drink spiked as clearly the rapist was intent on committing the crime. A drunk girl making foolish decisions however, and a drunk guy acting upon is usually where the debate is focused.
Click to expand...

what in THEE fuck
 
F

Future

Member
DY_nasty said:
what in THEE fuck
Click to expand...

You wouldn't think the line about condemning rapists would have gotten a wtf comment. :p

This is the fuckin problem. People too blinded by both extremes to actually be able to have any sort of intelligent debate. All you get is 1 line responses that somehow are supposed to strengthen their position, when instead it does nothing of the kind. It really doesn't matter anyway. Neither side will budge on their position, and both sides believe their beliefs are so righteous that they feel little need to debate it.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Future said:
You wouldn't think the line about condemning rapists would have gotten a wtf comment. :p

This is the fuckin problem. People too blinded by both extremes to actually be able to have any sort of intelligent debate. All you get is 1 line responses that somehow are supposed to strengthen their position, when instead it does nothing of the kind. It really doesn't matter anyway. Neither side will budge on their position, and both sides believe their beliefs are so righteous that they feel little need to debate it.
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What middle ground is there to have?

You have someone who got raped vs someone who is raping.

I understand where you're coming from, I do, but where you walk at night is never the same as throwing on your rape gear and looking to get it in regardless. How do you equate the two?
 
D

Devolution

Member
DY_nasty said:
What middle ground is there to have?

You have someone who got raped vs someone who is raping.

I understand where you're coming from, I do, but where you walk at night is never the same as throwing on your rape gear and looking to get it in regardless. How do you equate the two?
Click to expand...

I gotta go get fitted for my chastity belt.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Devolution said:
Which color do you think is most anti-rapey?
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Red means stop.

But it also says slut. I dunno... you might want to try for orange because its a safety color, but God help you when Halloween rolls around.
 
F

Future

Member
DY_nasty said:
What middle ground is there to have?

You have someone who got raped vs someone who is raping.

I understand where you're coming from, I do, but where you walk at night is never the same as throwing on your rape gear and looking to get it in regardless. How do you equate the two?
Click to expand...

I pretty much explained it full already, so I doubt the point will ever get agreed upon. This is not about equating anything. It's not about saying that a victim of a crime is the one at fault. It's about the fact that whenever anyone mentions obvious common sense mistakes that a victim makes, that they get hung for it with the assumption that it empowers the people committing the crime. And that's what makes these discussions span 20 pages.

If I leave my door unlocked and get robbed, then I shouldn't be upset when people suggest I lock my damn door. I shouldn't think that they are empowering robbers when it is said, or that the victim encouraged the robber. The middle ground is accepting the victim made some mistakes, while also condemning the crime. Now, obviously, you can be a victim when there were no such mistakes made. But who the hell is saying they should be blamed in these cases? The thought of that is what provoked my first post on this page (ruffie in a glass of water)

As mentioned before, the real debate, IMO, is when it is unclear if a crime was even committed. No fuckin drugs or obvious criminal shit involved. Just two drunk ass people making stupid mistakes, which sometimes become a crime, or sometimes not.
 
Pollux

Pollux

Member
Devolution said:
Which color do you think is most anti-rapey?
Click to expand...

Black with silver studded spikes.


2 questions..

1. B and G go to a party. B's with his friends, and G is with her friends. They both get black out drunk. On the way into the dorm building they both inhabit they bump into each other and G drunkenly invites B back to her room. They have sex. They wake up the next morning and neither remembers anything. G assumes she's been raped. Has a rape occurred? (Question on my midterm last semester)

2. Explain why the following statement is wrong: "People should take care not to wear expensive jewelry in bad neighborhoods b/c it will increase the likelihood of them being robbed; similarly women should take care not to dress 'slutty' in certain environments b/c it will increase the likelihood of sexual assault." (Guy in the same class as me from Question 1)


Devolution said:
How to discuss Rape 101: stop using bad analogies and talk about the actual crime itself.
Click to expand...
Guess I should delete #2 then. But I was curious how people would answer it. Nobody really answered it during the class b/c everyone just looked at him with a "WTF?!?! Really, dude?" expressions.
 
D

Devolution

Member
Future said:
How about actual discussion for once instead of stupid ass one liners that add nothing to the conversation
Click to expand...

If you're so far removed from the threat of rape that all you have are stupid ass comparisons to property theft there is nothing to discuss.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Future said:
I pretty much explained it full already, so I doubt the point will ever get agreed upon. This is not about equating anything. It's not about saying that a victim of a crime is the one at fault. It's about the fact that whenever anyone mentions obvious common sense mistakes that a victim makes, that they get hung for it with the assumption that it empowers the people committing the crime. And that's what makes these discussions span 20 pages.

If I leave my door unlocked and get robbed, then I shouldn't be upset when people suggest I lock my damn door. I shouldn't think that they are empowering robbers when it is said, or that the victim encouraged the robber. The middle ground is accepting the victim made some mistakes, while also condemning the crime. Now, obviously, you can be a victim when there were no such mistakes made. But who the hell is saying they should be blamed in these cases? The thought of that is provoked my first post on this page.

As mentioned before, the real debate, IMO, is when it is unclear if a crime was even committed. No fuckin drugs or obvious criminal shit involved. Just two drunk ass people making stupid mistakes, which sometimes become a crime, or sometimes not.
Click to expand...
Property theft? That's a ...bad comparison.

Also, this entire attitude is why so many people who in fact do commit rape, walk away. Because shifting and distributing the blame is exactly that - shifting and distributing the blame away from a rapist. You throw that into a situation between colleagues, friends, coworkers and its not even hard to imagine what it turns into.
zmoney said:
B and G go to a party. B's with his friends, and G is with her friends. They both get black out drunk. On the way into the dorm building they both inhabit they bump into each other and G drunkenly invites B back to her room. They have sex. They wake up the next morning and neither remembers anything. G assumes she's been raped. Has a rape occurred? (Question on my midterm last semester)
Click to expand...
How can you expect people to be serious when the question you throw out is already loaded from the start?
 
S

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Devolution said:
Realizing it's about the perps and not the victims also opens up a larger dialogue for male victims to come forward with their own stories. When talking of preventative measures one rests the idea on "well what did the victim fail to do" rather than "why is he/she raping in the first place"? And the latter question which Charle gave some light to is complicated and even more hostile ground than the former because a lot of it involves introspection in the daily and cultural attitudes that "feed the machine" so to speak. And you have to get into "male entitlement" a lot when it comes to that and some people aren't ready for that discussion if we can't get past the 101 of rape myths.
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I know what the typical psychological profile for a rapist looks like but I don't know how we could completely possibly eliminate that type of person or thinking from American society in this generation, or even in the next several ones. Same thing goes for all other perpetrators of violent crime. Society can try hard to change a toxic culture and teach everyone to not be rapists but it comes off as a quixotic solution for the near term.

That's not to say that it's not worth the effort to change the culture. But a two pronged approach is going to be necessary. I think a good start at Missoula would be to fire a ton of staff and law enforcement officials and make everyone take rape awareness and education classes in high school. Male and female.
 
F

Future

Member
DY_nasty said:
Property theft? That's a ...bad comparison.

Also, this entire attitude is why so many people who in fact do commit rape, walk away. Because shifting and distributing the blame is exactly that - shifting and distributing the blame away from a rapist. You throw that into a situation between colleagues, friends, coworkers and its not even hard to imagine what it turns into.
Click to expand...

The analogy was ANY crime. The victims can make mistakes that lead to crimes being committed against them. Saying so should not empower the comitter of the crime. Saying so should not diminish the severity of the crime. I suppose this is the cold reality that some people have a hard time accepting, which I'd say is pretty damn unfortunate.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Future said:
The analogy was ANY crime. The victims can make mistakes that lead to crimes being committed against them. Saying so should not empower the comitter of the crime. Saying so should not diminish the severity of the crime. I suppose this is the cold reality that some people have a hard time accepting, which I'd say is pretty damn unfortunate.
Click to expand...

Victims can make mistakes and Criminals can make choices. Trying to weigh them against each other like "well this case was 15% her fault for walking out at night and 85% his fault for putting on a mask but THIS case was 45% her fault because they were both drunk and cmon! its a party" is just ridiculous.
 
Pollux

Pollux

Member
DY_nasty said:
How can you expect people to be serious when the question you throw out is already loaded from the start?
Click to expand...

It's not loaded at all. Neither remembers anything. She wakes up with a guy she doesn't recognize and remembers nothing. It's a perfectly reasonable assumption. My question is about after that, in a case of he said she said who do you believe? Not in any situation but in that situation.
 
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