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gelf · Jul 26, 2017

The worst thing about trophies for me is the idea that 100 percenting them is seen as something to aim for and is encouraged. This results in certain players feeling compelled to clear them and getting mad if a game isn't an easy platinum.

Used just as a record of stuff you did I think they are fine. Multiplayer cheevos would be less hated if people didn't feel this compulsion to get them all. I wonder if things would be better if we didn't have all these unfilled bars and numbers on people's profiles.

Candescence · Jul 26, 2017

sixteen-bit said:
I'm surprised toby fox put trophies in Undertale on PS4 and Vita tbh. Must've been mandated for certification.

Yep. The way he announced trophy support was in the form of an apology. He clearly isn't comfortable with implementing them, and frankly, it's stupid that trophies/achievements are mandatory.

I wouldn't be surprised if getting a plat in Undertale is extremely easy just to spiteful towards the entire system. TBH, I'm extremely tempted to do the same with my own projects just to make a point.

Keinning · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
Let's put it another way;
If people got a hold of Anita Sarkeesians gamertag that she used primarily for academic research, would her gamerscore be used to discredit her?

People already discredit Anita for a whole lot of reasons, achievements had nothing to do with that

terrible example.

LordRaptor · Jul 26, 2017

Fisty said:
I hope you realize the vast difference between the data collected between achievements and Google analytics and how they are used

I am talking about Google Play Services Achievements systems and Apple GameCentre Achievements systems, not their broader analytics.

If you play a game on Android that has Google Play Services Achievements functionality, you manually signin to Google Play Services before achievements are tracked.
When Google Play Services tells you "5% of people have this achievement", it is talking about 5% of people that bother to sign in to the Play APIs, not "5% of all users".

e:

Keinning said:
People already discredit Anita for a whole lot of reasons, achievements had nothing to do with that

terrible example.

Okay; do you believe people get harrassed by others who look up their trophy data and use that as a basis for an attack?

*Splinter · Jul 26, 2017

If I hate having a gamertag, and get mad every time I see my gamertag onscreen, does that make the entire concept of gamertags bad or am I just a fucking loon?

InsaneTiger · Jul 26, 2017

*Splinter said:
If I hate having a gamertag, and get mad every time I see my gamertag onscreen, does that make the entire concept of gamertags bad or am I just a fucking loon?

You would be a loon.

Keinning · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
Okay; do you believe people get harrassed by others who look up their trophy data and use that as a basis for an attack?

I believe people get harrassed by a vast range of things because assholes will cling to any reason to attack someone and removing things isn't the way to deal with it. Anita got flak for her femfreq videos, the solution for it is not closing youtube down.

InsaneTiger · Jul 26, 2017

WrenchNinja · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
Let's put it another way;
If people got a hold of Anita Sarkeesians gamertag that she used primarily for academic research, would her gamerscore be used to discredit her?

People will try to dicredit her any which way, having her achievements available isn't going to change that for misogynistic pieces of shit. For Anita, she can hide the games she's played and prevent people from checking on her profile if she so desires.

Fanboys will do anything to discredit reviewers who review a game low. This is not achievement and gamertag problem.

Turok came out in 2008. Do you have modern example of a multiplayer game being ruined by people trying to get an achievement or are you just admitting to being stuck in the mid oughts?

Lord of Ostia · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
I am talking about Google Play Services Achievements systems and Apple GameCentre Achievements systems, not their broader analytics.

If you play a game on Android that has Google Play Services Achievements functionality, you manually signin to Google Play Services before achievements are tracked.
When Google Play Services tells you "5% of people have this achievement", it is talking about 5% of people that bother to sign in to the Play APIs, not "5% of all users".

e:

Okay; do you believe people get harrassed by others who look up their trophy data and use that as a basis for an attack?

That is a symptom of a larger problem, and not the fault of achievement systems. Assholes who want to harass others will use whatever means necessary to do so. If you remove achievements, they will still harass people. Also achievements are not a measure of how good someone is at a game anyway, so harassing someone over their achievements list is asinine....harassing anyone in general is asinine. This is all ancillary to the merit of achievements though.

LordRaptor · Jul 26, 2017

Keinning said:
I believe people get harrassed by a vast range of things because assholes will cling to any reason to attack someone and removing things isn't the way to deal with it. Anita got flak for her femfreq videos, the solution for it is not closing youtube down.

No, but the point is that if you want to exclude yourself from a system, what are the reasons that you shouldn't be allowed to?
The counterpoint I was responding to was the claim that you are only part of that system if you go and look at your trophies, and that is simply not true.

If I don't want to make youtube videos, I don't have a mandatory youtube account that auto uploads my gameplay and the most I can do about that is turn off the notifications that it is doing that.

e:

Lord of Ostia said:
That is a symptom of a larger problem, and not the fault of achievement systems.

I am not saying that is the fault of "achievements systems"; I am saying mandatory systemic achievements systems do more harm than good, and the only defence for them is from people who are heavily invested in wanting such systems because it lets them compare themselves to everyone regardless if those people want to be compared or not.

e2: I mean, some of those kinds of people already dislike the broad ranging tracking of achievements which is why things like "trueskill achievement" websites showed up for more accurate measurement, cross platform tracking, and - frankly - more fair analysis of how you might be performing measured against people who actually give a shit.

Lord of Ostia · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
No, but the point is that if you want to exclude yourself from a system, what are the reasons that you shouldn't be allowed to?
The counterpoint I was responding to was the claim that you are only part of that system if you go and look at your trophies, and that is simply not true.

If I don't want to make youtube videos, I don't have a mandatory youtube account that auto uploads my gameplay and the most I can do about that is turn off the notifications that it is doing that.

OK, and if you think people should be able to opt out of the achievements system, I would agree with that as well. Players and developers should be able to opt out of those systems if they dont wish to participate. That isnt the main argument of the article though, and being able to opt in or out of achievements is only tangentially related to their merit as a system.

horkrux · Jul 26, 2017

Hmm... you've linked this before, OP (because I remember disagreeing with the article

)

The thing is: The entire game influences player behaviour, and achievements are a part of that. The only one to blame for achievements that make players do stupid things that ruin their experience are the devs themselves.
And I still stand by the opinion that achievements can be included with every game. It's not too much to ask for, it's not a huge deal unless you make one out of it. These 'unavoidable achievements' might be pointless to him, but if you really don't want players to do anything out of the ordinary, this is the way to go. Doesn't hurt anybody.

Raylan Targaryen · Jul 26, 2017

Phawx said:
So someone with little to no self-control decides that because they specifically aren't able to be mature, instead a new complete system should be created to cater to their preferred way.

Cool.

Or you know, you could turn off achievement notifications.

Or, only go for achievements you want to go for.

Or you like the concept of achievements but dislike the execution of it

There's games that literally give you an achievement for pressing start

John Caboose · Jul 26, 2017

The article was great but I don't really have time to "respond". However he said achievements have been around for half a decade when in fact it's been almost 12 years at this point. Just funny how off his sense of time is around this is. Industry moves fast, but not that fast.

LinkSlayer64 · Jul 26, 2017

Keinning said:
i dont think people would do that dumb MK achievement that requires playing with everyone, fatalities, pints of blood etc. by themselves, and you could even replicate it in the first games if you want to (but without any gratification for it)

"but the achievement is dumb as hell!"

i agree. but it's not for me. some people thought it was fun pursuing it. who am i to tell them they shouldn't?

I'm not even sure what achievement you're talking about, but modern MK encourages playing with different characters by the fact they are unique and varied. As well as the story mode that requires you to play as different characters while you proceed through it. Besides fatalities being a staple, and something many people just do for the uniqueness and variance of them, in MKX, they also net you extra coins to use in The Krypt minigame. MK does not need a checkbox to get you to play as different characters or perform fatalities, it encourages that through its design.
You seem to keep ignoring that I am addressing "achievements encourage different playstyle!" When a game can organically encourage that on its own.

DassoBrother · Jul 26, 2017

I'd prefer if they were opt-in. On Steam, as far as I know they can't even be disabled.

The write-up nails how achievements can spoil emergent gameplay. A game like BotW would lose a lot if there was a checklist of things to make sure you tried (Bombs Away: Attach a bomb to an Octo Balloon).

John Caboose said:
The article was great but I don't really have time to "respond". However he said achievements have been around for half a decade when in fact it's been almost 12 years at this point. Just funny how off his sense of time is around this is. Industry moves fast, but not that fast.

Article was written January 2013, so they're a bit closer to the mark.

WhiskerFrisker · Jul 26, 2017

I've read this piece when someone linked it a while back in a Nintendo achievement thread. My thoughts: I still think it's articulated bullshit. Influencing player behavior? I play the game to completion and if I like it a lot I'll go for the trophies. Him being a developer doesn't change the fact that achievements can be hidden away from sight if you truly detest them.

*Splinter · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
e2: I mean, some of those kinds of people already dislike the broad ranging tracking of achievements which is why things like "trueskill achievement" websites showed up for more accurate measurement, cross platform tracking, and - frankly - more fair analysis of how you might be performing measured against people who actually give a shit.

...the more you post the more it sounds like you're just insecure about your... trophy list? skill level? Something? I don't know. I don't care about any of this. I enjoy trophies for some of the reasons I already listed and ignore all the ones I'm not interested in. Never met anyone who gives a shit about other people's trophy level. Most people don't even care about their own.

Bl4ckSunsh1n3 · Jul 26, 2017

I used to be all about them, but then I started to feel like I was chasing them too much. I always wanted that platinum or the next gold or w/e. I noticed when playing on Nintendo systems that I didn't miss them at all.

To me, they've become more of a distraction from the game and an artificial way to attempt to lengthen the amount of time I get from the game.

I'm curious as to how I'd feel about some of the games I've played if they didn't have achievements. Maybe they'd still be as good. Maybe some of them that were very average would actually not be. I guess I can't know now.

LordRaptor · Jul 26, 2017

*Splinter said:
...the more you post the more it sounds like you're just insecure about your... trophy list? skill level? Something? I don't know.

I mean... I've linked to specific research presented at GDC that achievement / trophies actively harm player appreciation of games, I've presented examples that show that a mandatory system as used by the PS4 and X1 doesn't hav much of a justification for being mandatory, and I've given examples as to why 'opt out of notifications' doesn't prevents issues caused by a mandatory system, all as part of a larger argument that I don't see mandatory systems having much of a longterm future given the vast majority of gamers are playing games on devices that don't have those systems....

...but sure, I'm butthurt about my gamerscore. Simple explanation. I just can't admit operant conditioning fucking owns.

CosmicRomancer · Jul 26, 2017

Interesting read. Personally, I don't feel so against achievements as the author does despite acknowledging the good points he makes.

I don't agree with his assertion: at worst it influences player behaviour. I believe there are 2 sides of the coin there -- you can influence behaviour positively.

The trophies I don't like are ones, like he said, that you're going to get regardless like finishing a chapter or mission. They do absolutely nothing for me and I'm sure it's the same for a lot of people, so the operant conditioning argument I'm not sure about.

The ones I really like are ones that force you to play differently and experiment with different styles of play. It increases the games' longevity by adding a new dimension or rather revealing a hidden, already existing dimension. I must have played loads of games where I haven't fully taken advantage of the games' mechanics, so a challenge set by the devs in achievement form is a good way to make sure gamers utilise said mechanics. Is that bad game design? Maybe, I'm sure ideally they'd like to find an intrinsic solution but in my opinion, achievements are a good alternative for sure.

*Splinter · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
I mean... I've linked to specific research presented at GDC that achievement / trophies actively harm player appreciation of games, I've presented examples that show that a mandatory system as used by the PS4 and X1 doesn't hav much of a justification for being mandatory, and I've given examples as to why 'opt out of notifications' doesn't prevents issues caused by a mandatory system, all as part of a larger argument that I don't see mandatory systems having much of a longterm future given the vast majority of gamers are playing games on devices that don't have those systems....

Yeah you posted a link to a better argument. But you yourself have mostly prattled on about people harrassing others for their gamerscore, and something about a "more fair analysis of how you might be performing measured against people who actually give a shit".

Of the people arguing in favour of trophies, who even mentioned the overall gamerscore? All of my examples were of how individual trophies can (not necessarily will) improve my experience with a game.

Orca · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
I mean... I've linked to specific research presented at GDC that achievement / trophies actively harm player appreciation of games, I've presented examples that show that a mandatory system as used by the PS4 and X1 doesn't hav much of a justification for being mandatory, and I've given examples as to why 'opt out of notifications' doesn't prevents issues caused by a mandatory system, all as part of a larger argument that I don't see mandatory systems having much of a longterm future given the vast majority of gamers are playing games on devices that don't have those systems....

...but sure, I'm butthurt about my gamerscore. Simple explanation. I just can't admit operant conditioning fucking owns.

To be fair, you're the one who brought up ePeen...

Mael · Jul 26, 2017

LordRaptor said:
Yeah, you got it.

Meanwhile here's a topic about a GDC talk from 2010

I was wondering why this topic felt familiar...
Can't add anything that hasn't been said in the article or the GDC talk.
On a conceptual level it's stupid to have a system to change player's behavior when it's the game's job to do just that.
A game ain't better because there's a system to pat you on the back when you did a random task.
It's also why I wish I could do away with gamification in the service industry.

joe_zazen · Jul 26, 2017

Maybe people mostly play games for those happy chemical squirts and not all those other things the author thinks people play games for (joy of learning(lol), great stories(lolx2), joy of experiential art, or whatever).

TheChewyWaffles · Jul 26, 2017

Tempest in a teacup, IMO.

DassoBrother · Jul 26, 2017

One thing that I noticed myself doing when I was more interested in trophies/achievements was playing games in unenjoyable ways just so I could cross some threshold of >80% achievements unlocked. An example would be switching between weapons to make sure I get all the "Kill X enemies using weaponOne/Two/Three", I remember this specifically being annoying in Uncharted 2. My brain would not consider games completed until I'd made sure I got all the low-hanging fruit achievements, and if I missed one along the way on my first play through I usually wouldn't dive back in to get those achievements but I'd feel worse about having finished the game. Stupid psychological tricks that I'll admit, still work on me sometimes.

If I don't personally like hunting achievements, then maybe there is a social aspect. A replacement for achievements though is screenshot/clip-sharing and just talking to friends about what cool stuff they've seen/done in a game. I'd rather hear about a friends crazy BotW story or cool Stardew Valley farm then see an achievement they got for it. Maybe achievements can live harmoniously with this type of engagement but for me, they're a distraction from something much better.

Endo Punk · Jul 26, 2017

Trophies definitely effect the way I play games especially because they cannot be deleted after you get a trophy. Nothing irks me more than browsing a trophy list and seeing a game I don't want on there. I buy and play less games because of this.

Fuchsdh · Jul 26, 2017

Endo Punk said:
Trophies definitely effect the way I play games especially because they cannot be deleted after you get a trophy. Nothing irks me more than browsing a trophy list and seeing a game I don't want on there. I buy and play less games because of this.

...You could play those games on another account. I mean, I hate that I'll forever have Hexic HD never complete (goddamn oyster pearls) but if I really cared that much I'd smurf account them. I haven't bought games that were time-consuming to finish and 100%, but that's always because I was on the fence and the achievements were the final nail in the coffin.

Patch13 · Jul 26, 2017

You may as well have a timer that doles out a random nonsensical compliment every 15 minutes, such as "you are attractive" or "you've got a great sense of humor."

I now totally want to see this implemented in a game. Preferably so that it gets in the way of gameplay. Like, you're going for a headshot, and bam! a pop up in the middle of the screen: "You're a good looking person, Bob, and that's why people like you."

My Suggested Replacement: Variants!

A lot of games have already implemented this. The quest system in a lot of endless runner style mobile games works this way, and several console and PC games have implemented them, as well. Tumbleseed has a series of quests at the beginning that help teach you how to play, and also unlock a benefit, for example. I find that I tend to enjoy quests more than achievements.

I'm not sure that quests/variants need to apply evenly to all players, though. Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles had a system where each player received a secret quest on their GBA screen. The player who scored best on the quest got the first pick of the loot at the end of a level. So there was this interesting balancing act between fulfilling the quest, even if it didn't benefit the party, and helping the party complete the level. Some of the best moments in that game were when you just barely completed a level together by the skin of your teeth, only to find out that half of your worries stemmed from one player's quest. That sort of thing needs to be implemented thoughtfully, of course, but it can make for interesting multiplayer games ...

SentryDown · Jul 26, 2017

Endo Punk said:
Trophies definitely effect the way I play games especially because they cannot be deleted after you get a trophy. Nothing irks me more than browsing a trophy list and seeing a game I don't want on there. I buy and play less games because of this.

You can delete trophies and hide games from your profile

Endo Punk · Jul 26, 2017

SentryDown said:
You can delete trophies and hide games from your profile

Can only delete 0% trophies trophies and can't hide from yourself. I'd be fine if hiding them means I don't have to see them myself but that isn't the case. Btw I'm not a trophy whore, I could get care less if I have 0% or 100% as long as I like the game, I dont like playing on other profiles because I have grown attached to mine though of course I do when a friend lets me borrow, for example The Order. Boy did I dodge a bullet there.

Commanche Raisin Toast · Jul 26, 2017

Interesting read, although he seems to have contradicted himself a few times. Mainly around the idea of it being bad to influence player behavior, but also saying players would play the game "incorrectly" to get achievements while also posing that players should be able to experience certain things as if they are unique.

I think at the end of the day players have the choice to engage with achievements or not as well as easy access to disable notifications etc to just ignore them. And developers have the freedom to make any kind of achievements they want, and if they don't want to they can just make a simple progression list.

I'm okay with forcing all games to have them though because if some had them and some didn't a lot of people would avoid those that didn't and it would be a big silly mess.

Edit: also forgot to mention with his variants idea- that sort of already exists in the form of trophies that challenge you to get through the whole game while meeting a specific requirement. IE: in Prey there's a trophy for playing the entire game with only human powers and another for playing it with only typhon powers.

Stiler · Jul 26, 2017

For those saying achievements have 0 influence on a persons behavior you are completely wrong.

It's the same way that gambling and other things can influence people, seeing an achievement, feeling the need to 100% it and tick the boxes is something that many people want to do, even if deep down they would rather play the game without achievements.

Playing open world games and wanting to "clear" the map or going out of your way to search for collectibles (that don't mean anything in the actual game) is one of the main examples of terrible design for achievements.

There's an entire psychology behind the design of achievements and how it affects the people playing them.

Why do you think it's became a norm when many games back in the NES/SNES/Genesis days had not such things?

That feeling of reward when you see the icons and clear them, or have an unexpected achievement pop up, it has an affect on people.

Having forced achievements is wrong, if a developer doesn't want any they should not have to have them.

gogosox82 · Jul 26, 2017

Depends on how they are implemented imo. Achievements/trophies for completely things they have to do to beat the game or grinding a ton are shit but Achievements that require the player to fight harder enemies or complete challenges are fine imo because they require the player to engage in the game in a way they normally wouldn't otherwise.

*Splinter · Jul 26, 2017

LinkSlayer64 said:
Why can't the developer design the game in a way that encourages these things without a stupid list of ideas.
Do you think achievements made people do silly things like carry props all the way through Half Life 2? No they weren't a thing.
Breath of the Wild is a testament to all of this, because it contains no achievements, yet has had so many creative ideas pop up by players everywhere. When you design your game to encourage this sort of experimentation, many people will take advantage of it. (And it laughs in collection achievements faces with the reward for all Korok seeds.)

...I understand now!

The existence of achievements prevents players from experimenting in games, but holding a plastic figure (sold separately) to your controller to access basic features is:

LinkSlayer64 said:
fun.

It all makes sense now!

Mael · Jul 26, 2017

*Splinter said:
...I understand now!

The existence of achievements prevents players from experimenting in games, but holding a plastic figure (sold separately) to your controller to access basic features is:

It all makes sense now!

Fuck off with your console warrior BS.
That has fuck all to do with the topic at hand.
Are you going to dig up his post regarding voice chat too?

Fushichou187 · Jul 26, 2017

Endo Punk said:
Trophies definitely effect the way I play games especially because they cannot be deleted after you get a trophy. Nothing irks me more than browsing a trophy list and seeing a game I don't want on there. I buy and play less games because of this.

For myself I just decided a few years back to try to get my "completion %" up to 90%-- a lofty goal considering it was in the low 50s then and 77% now. It's an arbitrary way I came up with to get me to not toss aside a game I paid a decent amount for after an hour or two because it got "too hard" or I was being lazy (in my own estimate). This definitely affects my buying habits as games that have extensive online multiplayer trophies in games I would only play for the single player, would negatively impact that goal of upping my completion percentage by trying to 100% as many of the games I now start up as possible, so I tend to not play MP heavy games much anymore. Destiny being a exception-- and I kind of regret jumping on that one in hindsight.

Again, it's a completely arbitrary metric that I only use on myself, but I've found that I've saved more money (less impulse purchases) and generally have had a lot more enjoyment in playing through-- exhaustively even-- games I've decided to start up. It has even encouraged me to revisit old games that I probably didn't give a fair shake the first time around and try to 100% them. More often than not I end up really having a good time with the game. Outland, Sly Cooper 1, Beyond Good & Evil, Vanquish, Closure, and Dead Space are good examples of this.

Alpha Phoenix · Jul 26, 2017

Good read. I agree on most points. But as others have noted, influencing player behavior isn't necessarily bad; you can influence player behavior positively by having them experiment with the game mechanics in a way that benefits them. Unfortunately, the vast majority of achievements are just lame or cheap--or both.

Kaleinc · Jul 26, 2017

InsaneTiger said:
Achievements hurt nobody and if devs think Sony or MS are messing with their design, they can easily do the bare minimum and just have them pop for stupid easy chievos and move on.

Just like loot boxes hurt nobody in Overwatch.

Achievements are one of top 5 worst things that happened to gaming industry.

Dr. Buni · Jul 26, 2017

I love achievements. I am an aspiring gaming dev and I am working on my game currently. It is totally having quite a few achievos. As someone else said, it hurts nobody. If a dev decides to design their game around achievements and not add achievements based on the game they have on hand, they have bigger problems, IMO.

fspm said:
Achievements are one of top 5 worst things that happened to gaming industry.

It isn't, though.

Toadthemushroom · Jul 26, 2017

DassoBrother said:
One thing that I noticed myself doing when I was more interested in trophies/achievements was playing games in unenjoyable ways just so I could cross some threshold of >80% achievements unlocked. An example would be switching between weapons to make sure I get all the "Kill X enemies using weaponOne/Two/Three", I remember this specifically being annoying in Uncharted 2. My brain would not consider games completed until I'd made sure I got all the low-hanging fruit achievements, and if I missed one along the way on my first play through I usually wouldn't dive back in to get those achievements but I'd feel worse about having finished the game. Stupid psychological tricks that I'll admit, still work on me sometimes.

If I don't personally like hunting achievements, then maybe there is a social aspect. A replacement for achievements though is screenshot/clip-sharing and just talking to friends about what cool stuff they've seen/done in a game. I'd rather hear about a friends crazy BotW story or cool Stardew Valley farm then see an achievement they got for it. Maybe achievements can live harmoniously with this type of engagement but for me, they're a distraction from something much better.

Hah, I can't remember if I mentioned Uncharted 2 earlier in this thread or elsewhere but that was literally me back in 2009. I wish I played the game without that external influence and just used the best weapons for the situation. Would have been cool for that game to have what the author called Variants though - specifically created ways of playing through a mission.

Heck, GoldenEye 007 had that stuff, and it unlocked cheats. But it wasn't part of an always-accessible checklist of tasks, it was separate.

Toadthemushroom · Jul 26, 2017

Stiler said:
For those saying achievements have 0 influence on a persons behavior you are completely wrong.

It's the same way that gambling and other things can influence people, seeing an achievement, feeling the need to 100% it and tick the boxes is something that many people want to do, even if deep down they would rather play the game without achievements.

Playing open world games and wanting to "clear" the map or going out of your way to search for collectibles (that don't mean anything in the actual game) is one of the main examples of terrible design for achievements.

There's an entire psychology behind the design of achievements and how it affects the people playing them.

Why do you think it's became a norm when many games back in the NES/SNES/Genesis days had not such things?

That feeling of reward when you see the icons and clear them, or have an unexpected achievement pop up, it has an affect on people.

Having forced achievements is wrong, if a developer doesn't want any they should not have to have them.

Yeah, this shouldn't be overlooked. I think global achievement systems with their gamerscore and trophy levels are a problem in their own right since they affect player behaviour across platforms, often encouraging addictive patterns in the platform itself, let alone the game (I'm sure we've all been there in the past, playing more games just for the trophies or gamerscore)

Kaleinc · Jul 26, 2017

Reila said:
I love achievements. I am an aspiring gaming dev and I am working on my game currently. It is totally having quite a few achievos. As someone else said, it hurts nobody. If a dev decides to design their game around achievements and not add achievements based on the game they have on hand, they have bigger problems, IMO.

It isn't, though.

It is and there're plenty of posts in this thead proving it. Let's have a look at the most recent.

Fushichou187 said:
so I tend to not play MP heavy games much anymore

Fushichou187 said:
would negatively impact that goal of upping my completion percentage by trying to 100%

Reila, see what's going on here?

Fushichou187 · Jul 26, 2017

fspm said:
see what's going on here?

Haha well in my case I stated multiple times that it's a completely arbitrary metric that's a part of essentially a self-imposed meta game; being that I want to see if I can get to 90% completion from among the games I choose to play.

Since trophies achieved are how completion % is calculated on a per title basis on PSN, # of trophies in a title or how they're organized certainly factors into how I choose what I play next. Additionally, if I know I'm not super into multiplayer to begin with-- w/ or w/o trophies-- then yeah, I'll probably give an MP-heavy game a pass. I don't see it as being any more or less arbitrary than someone saying "I won't play X game because it's $30 and I only play games once they hit $15 or less", or "I won't play a game that doesn't have robust online multiplayer" or "I won't play X genre" etc...

They're all arbitrary limiters we are putting on what types of games we will or won't engage with based on our own personal criteria. I don't necessarily think any of them are worse than the others.

On topic, trophies/achievements definitely have influenced my playing behavior; they have encouraged me to engage with a game long after I would have put it down before, and as a result I have had a far more rewarding experience with most of the games I have chosen to play, not less. Some exceptions to this, obviously haha

The Hermit · Jul 26, 2017

PSqueak said:
I take you haven't played Undertale.

The game itself is a HUGE criticism of treating games like "check lists" and "doing things just because you can", the themes explored are ones precisely that criticize players for engaging in this behavior, and yes there are people like who you mentioned, but there is also tons of people who swore to never do genocide runs, i sure as hell havent.

Tobey could do an achievement like this " beat sans" and before the fight sans say " oh, you are here for the achievement? There you go" before the fight

Nuke Soda · Jul 26, 2017

I do enjoy trophies/achievements, but would not mind seeing them evolve past kill 25 baddies or get a multi-kill off a grenade. That being said I am usually not worried about 100% a list, though it does feel nice when I do.

darkinstinct · Jul 26, 2017

The only bad achievements are multiplayer achievements. Those tend to influence the games of people that don't care about them

Fisty · Jul 26, 2017

I would assume every person in this thread complaining about not being able to escape the gaping maw of Skinner Box trophies and achievements is also hopelessly addicted to crack and 700lbs. There is no such thing as individuality and choice, after all.

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A game designer's critique on Achievement and Trophy systems

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...lacks reading comprehension.

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