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"How Cover Systems Ruined Shooters" a video by Trubo button

Max Payne 3 is an interesting case. A lot of the people I saw who complained about the difficulty and dying a lot coincidentally also happened to play it as a straight-up cover shooter. Whereas playing it like a run and gun shooter, with brief respites by taking cover, tends to make the game far more enjoyable and actually easier.
How'd I guess that I'd be in for a 15-20 minute video narrated by a guy with a British accent.

The classic, "I figured it out, everyone else is wrong" video. I still appreciate them, but sometimes they can be laughable.



Amen. These videos always just dribble down into, "I dont like these things cause they arent like the things I like!" which is completely fine. But then they get past around like objective gospel and everyone links to this shit for years when you have any discussion... "There was a video made about it, its true."
Would the video be more palatable if the guy had an American accent? Always hear this braindead comment regarding these sorts of videos.
 
Yes cover shooters reduce the dimensionality of movement to 2-dimensions. Yes, that simplifies combat (for the time you are in cover)... yes, that reduces complexity... I'm still struggling to see why a reduction in complexity is objectively bad?

For all the reasons you already mentioned and several more. Removing depth from a game's mechanics results in a watered-down experience that some gamers do not find enjoyable. Cover shooters do not belong to the "easy to learn, hard to master" category of games. Most of them are basically reduced to shooting gallery games like Time Crisis which can be tons of fun but they are a completely different type of game than the traditional shooter. Remove enough elements from a game and you end up with something else entirely which you might not enjoy.
 

nOoblet16

Member
He says cover slows down gameplay and while true in SOME cases it's not always true. You have an example in Gears where cover is the reason why the game is the fastest TPS MP game out there. Also despite the fact that dodge and cover is mapped to A by default it almost always works the way you want because if you actually play the game and understand it you'll realise what's going to happen when because you'll be familiar with the angles and distance where each takes into effect.


Honestly Gears is still the pinnacle of cover mechanics in a game and it says something when the first Gears wasn't the game that popularised the cover system. But make no mistake, the cover system has changed a lot from Gears 1 to Gears 4, it has become incredibly more fluid and Gears 1 feels super clunky in comparison, plus Gears 2 introduced slide cancel. But the core of the cover system has been largely the same despite the refinements and it says something when it's still the best out there.

No matter how stupid sliding and wall bouncing looks it's what makes Gears have that skill ceiling and it's what makes it so fun to play.
 
Intriguing video imo.

Mixed feelings on it...below, I'mma type some stuff that perhaps wasn't mentioned in the video, but I feel still is related to it's content:

I don't quite like cover systems in TPS games in general, like Gears series, etc...as I suck in general at picking the right cover to use at the right time. Even if I do, I'm often swarmed by bullets from all directions and the like...so I don't feel properly "rewarded" for picking the right cover spot if that makes sense.

That's why I ended up LOVING the way cover works in Time Crisis series, where going into cover is as simple as removing your foot off the pedal (in arcade ver.s typically). Given it's an on-rails shooter, you as the player don't need to worry about picking the "right" cover, as it's decided for you where you're gonna take cover, which is extremely helpful for me tbh. Going into cover in them, besides giving you the chance to avoid enemy fire completely (I believe that's the case...if I'm right about that, then yea it helps me avoid the problem I have with TPS games w/ cover, being swarmed by enemy fire all around me, even when I pick the "right" cover to hide behind), also lets you reload your gun automatically. Being in cover in most or all Time Crisis games I believe is governed by a time limit in each area, so that prevents the player from staying behind cover forever I believe.

In general though, I'm MUCH MORE fond of run-n-gun style/games that don't rely on cover system shooting games (like RE4, Metal Slug series, Doom 2016 demo, etc.)...feels more...satisfying and action-like to me to freely run about and gun down enemies and/or not having to worry about picking the "right" cover...and in RE4's case, besides enemies w/ crossbows and sometimes rocket launchers and sometimes enemies stationed at Gatling guns, a vast majority of the enemies in that game are equipped w/ either melee weapons (which some of them can throw at you I believe) and/or throwable weapons...to me, I much prefer being the one w/ an arsenal of upgradeable weapons against hordes of mostly melee oriented enemies...much more satisfying to me. That sounds overpowered in theory...but the way aiming works in RE4 is such that like previous REs before it, you can't strafe while aiming. So that makes you as a player vulnerable to melee strikes from those mostly melee oriented enemies when aiming...so I consider that a sort of balance to avoid the overpowering of you as a player with a vast, upgradeable arsenal of firearms vs. going up against hordes of mostly melee-oriented enemies.

Not to mention, for the most part, I dislike alot the general...aesthetic...of cover in games. Most of the time, the covers stick out like sore thumbs and ruin otherwise at least passable atmospheres in many games w/ them imo. The exception I can think of at this time is Uncharted 4, which to my knowledge at least has some "natural" covers that seem like they fit into/are a part of their surroundings, and thus don't stick out like sore thumbs. Unfortunately though, IIRC, a good chunk/most of the game I've played so far still predominantly features what I consider "over-designed" cover, the type that sticks out to me like sore thumbs and as a result I consider them to ruin otherwise passable atmospheres (although I consider most of Uncharted 4's atmospheres BEAUTIFUL, which makes me even more mad when those "over-designed" covers appear in them :/ )

So yea, those are my thoughts related to this video, why I dislike cover in most TPS games and why I typically prefer run-n-gun shooters/shooters that don't rely on cover...I think I've covered everything, but very well could be missing something or somethings. If I find that to be the case, I might edit this post later on. If one or any of you read either this whole long post or a part or parts of it, I appreciate it haha!
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
Max Payne 3 is an interesting case. A lot of the people I saw who complained about the difficulty and dying a lot coincidentally also happened to play it as a straight-up cover shooter. Whereas playing it like a run and gun shooter, with brief respites by taking cover, tends to make the game far more enjoyable and actually easier.

Would the video be more palatable if the guy had an American accent? Always hear this braindead comment regarding these sorts of videos.


It's to do with the fact that enemy have laser vision and aim when you're not in bullet time. When in bullet time they are like stormtroopers and can't hit for shit so the game is actively encouraging you to be in bullet time at all times. That and using rolling too.

Honestly apart from the movement of Max being slower and heavier, which I completely agree with, I didn't really agree with his MP3 complaints at all. You just have to be a little bit more thoughtful of your movement. For that and Quantum Break you both really don't need cover for at all. Hell I played Quantum Break on the hardest difficulty and as the game goes on you're zipping about like a mother fucker using all your powers barely stopping at all. It just seemed like he didn't like the game.

Funnily enough when it comes to shooters I think he'd really enjoy Agents Of Mayhem, not a single bit of cover in that game :p
 
Halo, Borderlands, Overwatch, Destiny, Doom, Titanfall, Wolfenstein, Far Cry..."not very successful."

The fact that we're qualifying games like Wolfenstein and Far Cry as having "lots of mobility" speaks volumes.

All of those are very slow and automatic next to immediately comparable PC counterparts. Many of them have gratuitous auto-aim to compensate for the little mobility they have,
 

RPGam3r

Member
The fact that we're qualifying games like Wolfenstein and Far Cry as having "lots of mobility" speaks volumes.

All of those are very slow and automatic next to immediately comparable PC counterparts. Many of them have gratuitous auto-aim to compensate for the little mobility they have,

I know there are faster FPS on PC, that doesn't mean these games aren't mobile experiences. Nor does it mean that cover mechanics are needed to help the console gamers deal with analog aiming.
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I know there are faster FPS on PC, that doesn't mean these games aren't mobile experiences. Nor does it mean that cover mechanics are needed to help the console gamers deal with analog aiming.

Is that the narrative in this thread? Wow...
 
I think the core arguments are fine. I don't think it's possible to disagree that cover, as a mechanic, has not been meaningfully explored by the majority of games that feature it. Vanquish was a revelation when it came out.
 

eot

Banned
Yeah. I got Binary Domain some time ago. People were kinda hyping it up as an hidden gem, but... I'm not a fan of the gameplay, mostly because of it being cover-based. Doesn't help that IIRC it was kinda wonky with mouse & keyboard. And I hate playing shooters on pad.

I'm still debating on getting back to it due to everything else (it was supposed to be pretty charming once it actually gets off) especially since I didn't really get far at all, but still...
Same with Spec Ops: The Line.

Binary Domain doesn't put its best foot forward IMO
 
For all the reasons you already mentioned and several more. Removing depth from a game's mechanics results in a watered-down experience that some gamers do not find enjoyable. Cover shooters do not belong to the "easy to learn, hard to master" category of games. Most of them are basically reduced to shooting gallery games like Time Crisis which can be tons of fun but they are a completely different type of game than the traditional shooter. Remove enough elements from a game and you end up with something else entirely which you might not enjoy.

All you've said is that it makes it different... so why is different objectively bad?
 
I think the core arguments are fine. I don't think it's possible to disagree that cover, as a mechanic, has not been meaningfully explored by the majority of games that feature it. Vanquish was a revelation when it came out.

Actually, as mentioned in the video, Vanquish doesn't even meaningfully explore cover mechanics. It essentially tacks them on as an added option way of playing the game.

I would argue that there have been plenty games that have meaningfully explored cover mechanics... that's not even the argument being made in the video.

The video guy's argument is that cover mechanics simplify movement and thus = objectively bad.

It's essentially, "these games don't let me play like Vanquish, so they're bad".... well... those games aren't vanquish now are they?

The guy in the vid's argument is all over the place.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I'll just say this at the risk of sound like I'm repeating myself.

The reason Gears is so fast and has such a high skill ceiling is almost entirely because of its cover system, so his argument that cover system = simplified and slow gameplay to compensate for analogue sticks is automatically made null due to the existence of Gears a series that has primarily been a console series.
 
I'll just say this at the risk of sound like I'm repeating myself.

The reason Gears is so fast and has such a high skill ceiling is almost entirely because of its cover system, so his argument that cover system = simplified and slow gameplay to compensate for analogue sticks is automatically made null due to the existence of Gears a series that has primarily been a console series.

Gears if fast and with high skill ceiling? The game automates and magnetises almost everything, BECAUSE of the sticks, same with titanfall and other games that give the illusion of high skill or speed. You're sticking and sliding in gears to everything from half a room away. The dual stick setup needs VAST amounts of tricks and illusions in EVERY genre and game for them to function. He's not wrong on this particular aspect
 

jett

D-Member
Yeah. I got Binary Domain some time ago. People were kinda hyping it up as an hidden gem, but... I'm not a fan of the gameplay, mostly because of it being cover-based. Doesn't help that IIRC it was kinda wonky with mouse & keyboard. And I hate playing shooters on pad.

I'm still debating on getting back to it due to everything else (it was supposed to be pretty charming once it actually gets off) especially since I didn't really get far at all, but still...
Same with Spec Ops: The Line.

Quit while you're ahead bro. Binary Domain isn't going to get any better. Yeah, I didn't like it either, but I did stick to the end for some reason. I'm better at quitting games I don't really like now. :p
 

nOoblet16

Member
Gears if fast and with high skill ceiling? The game automates and magnetises almost everything, BECAUSE of the sticks, same with titanfall and other games that give the illusion of high skill or speed. You're sticking and sliding in gears to everything from half a room away. The dual stick setup needs VAST amounts of tricks and illusions in EVERY genre and game for them to function. He's not wrong on this particular aspect

Wait are you actually implying that Gears isn't fast and doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Because if you are then wow...that's just so wrong that I don't even know where to start except say that perhaps you should actually spend some time looking more deeply
The very fact that it magnetises your movement to cover is why it's fast because you can cancel out of it and use that momentum to change directions.

Just because there's automation involved doesn't mean it's simplified and there's no skill, if it was the case then there wouldn't be such a massive gap in the way skilled players navigate compared to your average players in these games.
It's not an illusion of speed, it's a very real thing that actually exists.
 
W
The very fact that it magnetises your movement to cover is why it's fast because you can cancel out of it and use that momentum to change directions.

Just because there's automation involved doesn't mean it's simplified and there's no skill,



I believe you should be in complete control and every pixel of movement should be the result of your actions. Like the original Quake has the movement system. You can even jump around corners and do so many things it boggles the mind with the right knowledge. Nothing is being done for you by the game, every nanometre that you move is an action performed by the player.

Okay, the automation in Gears gives way to some cool stuff sometimes. But thats exactly what it means, thats why auto stuff and magnetism exists in console gamedesign, its required due to how inefficient sticks are for pretty much everything. That is a crutch any way im looking at it.
 

Aki-at

Member
Yeah. I got Binary Domain some time ago. People were kinda hyping it up as an hidden gem, but... I'm not a fan of the gameplay, mostly because of it being cover-based. Doesn't help that IIRC it was kinda wonky with mouse & keyboard. And I hate playing shooters on pad.

I'm still debating on getting back to it due to everything else (it was supposed to be pretty charming once it actually gets off) especially since I didn't really get far at all, but still...
Same with Spec Ops: The Line.

Chapter 1 of Binary Domain is pretty lifeless and generic, it's from chapter 2 the game picks up with it's characters, boss battles and enemy designs that it starts to get a lot more charming. I felt you don't really need cover in the game, shot a couple of enemies in the head and melee the rest depending on how good you are, it helps that you can pay for health packs through out the level so even if you get gunned down you can just prop yourself up. I'm not a fan of the mechanics but I ended up really enjoying the game but if you're still not enjoying it by the end of chapter 3 probably a good time to call time on it.
 
All you've said is that it makes it different... so why is different objectively bad?

Everything about games is a matter of opinion, I wouldn't claim that anything is objectively bad because probably someone out there that enjoys it. It is bad for me because it turns third person shooters into something else that I don't enjoy at all.
 

13ruce

Banned
I hate it when shooters focus too much on cover gameplay it's super boring. Some cover gameplay i don't mind but some games entirely focus on it.
 
Haven't watched the video yet, but something more like "How BAD Cover Systems Ruined CERTAIN Shooters" would probably make more sense, since plenty of games have good cover shooting mechanics.

not nearly as clickbaity as original... but far more correct :) ...
 

nOoblet16

Member
I believe you should be in complete control and every pixel of movement should be the result of your actions. Like the original Quake has the movement system. You can even jump around corners and do so many things it boggles the mind with the right knowledge. Nothing is being done for you by the game, every nanometre that you move is an action performed by the player.

Okay, the automation in Gears gives way to some cool stuff sometimes. But thats exactly what it means, thats why auto stuff and magnetism exists in console gamedesign, its required due to how inefficient sticks are for pretty much everything. That is a crutch any way im looking at it.
For starters, you make it sounds like some purist idea where anything that doesn't fit is not skillful. We control video game characters, not puppets. The way you describe that players should have complete control of ever pixel of movement, perhaps you'd want manual controls for walking and running too rather than pressing a button to walk/run as it'll let you take the exact number of steps as you want and give you total control. I know that's not what you mean, infact I know exactly what you mean, but let's use that extreme joke as an example...why is pressing a button to move a better option than controlling your limbs separately if controlling every pixel of movement was so paramount for skill based movement?

It's because it some point it takes away from the game. What Quake does is specific to that game and would not apply to every single game nor would it work in every single game even if there was an option to have manual movement. From my over thousands of hours of play time in Gears series I can make an educated guess and say it with confidence Gears would be a slower game if it had a manual movement system because it'll replace the meta game where you are using the environment by introducing a new meta game, one where you are playing with the controls. And yes it will replace it even if you want to claim otherwise and say that the top skilled players will be able to do both and as such provide a "true skill ceiling", in which case I go back to my example of individual limb control, there'd be someone who'd be able to do all that we do in Gears despite an individual limb control system...so why does it sound so ridiculous to do that? Keep in mind I am being specific to Gears here, which I consider to be the fastest TPS multiplayer out there, Warframe might be arguably faster overall but it has all the slow mo modes.

Just because a game automates something does not make it inherently inferior to one that doesn't and vice versa. The speed is real because you are still moving in real time and have to make decisions in fraction of time, the effort you'd have spent micro managing the movement system is being spent elsewhere..it's not being wasted and the speed is not an illusion.
 

peppers

Member
For starters, you make it sounds like some purist elitism. We control video game characters, not puppets. The way you describe that players should have complete control of ever pixel of movement, perhaps you'd want manual controls for walking and running too rather than pressing a button to walk. I know that's not what you mean, infact I know exactly what you mean, but let's use that joke as an example...why is pressing a button to move a better option than controlling your limbs separately if controlling every pixel of movement was so paramount ?

It's because it some point it takes away from the game. What Quake does is specific to that game and would not apply to every single game nor would it work in every single game even if there was an option to have manual movement. From my over thousands of hours of play time in Gears series I can make an educated guess and say it with confidence Gears would be a slower game if it had a manual movement system because it'll replace the meta game where you are using the environment by introducing a new meta game, one where you are playing with the controls. And yes it will replace it even if you want to claim otherwise and say that the top skilled players will be able to do both and as such provide a "true skill ceiling", in which case I go back to my example of individual limb control, there'd be someone who'd be able to do all that we do in Gears despite an individual limb control system...so why does it sound so ridiculous to do that? Keep in mind I am being specific to Gears here.

Just because a game automates something does not make it inherently inferior to one that doesn't and vice versa. The speed is real because you are still moving in real time and have to make decisions in fraction of time, the effort you'd have spent micro managing the movement system is being spent elsewhere..it's not being wasted and the speed is not an illusion.

Very well said. While you slide into cover in those games you are literally already aiming or preparing for your next move. Automation lets you focus on what's important in every encounter.
 
I think cover shooters are a bit of an untapped market on PC. The couple I have played I didn't really like though. One stood out but I don't remember the name, it was an indie published game that didn't pick up a population.
 

mnemonicj

Member
I really need to give Vanquish a try.
I tried playing it but gave it up early in after binge playing the Gears series, and felt cover-shooter fatigued ever since.
 

arhra

Member
I believe you should be in complete control and every pixel of movement should be the result of your actions. Like the original Quake has the movement system. You can even jump around corners and do so many things it boggles the mind with the right knowledge. Nothing is being done for you by the game, every nanometre that you move is an action performed by the player.

By that logic, Quake would be a better game if it exchanged WASD for QWOP.

I hope you don't actually believe that.
 
I think the bigger problem here is the implementation of regenerating health in cover based shooters.

If Max Payne 3 had a regen system, then yeah, everyone would simply stick to cover and never do anything creative. The game encourages you to move around the field and dance around your enemies. Stopping and popping is a bad way to play the game. Your health will get chipped away in no time.

For all the "depth" that a game like Vanquish has, it still turns into a stop and pop shooter half the time. It's primarily because your life and energy is all tied to fricken cool down meters. "In Vanquish your punishment is playing a cover shooter. Think about that." Yeah, I did think about it, and that's a mark against the game if anything. These amazing movement abilities should encourage you to get out of danger. Instead, the game strips them away from you if you lose too much health, so it pretty much forces you to play a bad cover shooter. I can't see how anyone can praise that as good design.
 
Yeah I agree with most of what this video said. I wouldn't go to say a cover system fully ruined my enjoyment of a game but, I for sure agree that my enjoyment of a game has been hampered because of them in some games.

I think cover shooters are a bit of an untapped market on PC. The couple I have played I didn't really like though. One stood out but I don't remember the name, it was an indie published game that didn't pick up a population.

I think one made with Mouse and Keyboard in mind might have some legs but I can't think of one that has done that yet.
 
Gears of War is probably the best example on how to make cover shooters right.

I agree, but I have to admit I find the mechanics outdated and clunky now. Especially navigating around areas with a lot of cover, the "press a" to stick doesn't work that well anymore. I realize it's a skill, but philosophically, I don't wanna struggle with movement.
 
Yeah cover shooters are pretty boring gameplay wise. If stealth is mixed in, like with MGSV and TLOU, then they become pretty enjoyable for me.
 
Yeah I agree with most of what this video said. I wouldn't go to say a cover system fully ruined my enjoyment of a game but, I for sure agree that my enjoyment of a game has been hampered because of them in some games.



I think one made with Mouse and Keyboard in mind might have some legs but I can't think of one that has done that yet.

I played a gears of war type shooter on PC a couple years ago. It was a decent game, but it was indie published with zero marketing and almost zero post launch support. It just didn't get a player base even though it actually was pretty good. They could have launched it as a f2p but I guess their hands were busy with their other games.

Here it is: special forces team x

Dumb, generic name, no marketing. Terrible showing. The same developers as blacklight tango down + blacklight retribution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLhH3nyKua8

It's sort of like third person blacklight in a way, with a cover system. It was neat. It even had a unique map system where it had 3 maps randombly combined into 1 bigger map for variance in maps. Total commercial failure. I got a free copy. It was dead within weeks.
 
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