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[Sapphire Dreams]

The video is right here.

I think it rose some interesting points about cover systems and their bad implementation, I'm interested to hear what you guys think

 

[Sini]

Just finished watching it. I despised cover shooters already but this made me dislike them even more. I don't remember trying a single cover based shooter that was actually fun to play.

 

[prag16]

Haven't watched the video yet, but something more like "How BAD Cover Systems Ruined CERTAIN Shooters" would probably make more sense, since plenty of games have good cover shooting mechanics.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I don't remember trying a single cover based shooter that was actually fun to play.

Try Gears of War if you haven't yet.

 

[Lothars]

Haven't watched the video yet, but something more like "How BAD Cover Systems Ruined CERTAIN Shooters" would probably make more sense, since plenty of games have good cover shooting mechanics.

I've watched the video and your title is actually the correct one. I agree there are plenty of games with good shooting mechanics.

 

[ShroudOfFate]

Good video. It made me pine for Vanquish as a BC title though lol

 

[HStallion]

Just finished watching it. I despised cover shooters already but this made me dislike them even more. I don't remember trying a single cover based shooter that was actually fun to play.

Vanquish is the king but that is more along the lines of a character action game with cover mechanics

 

[old manatee]

I play a lot of shooters and I can't even remember the last time I played a full-on cover shooter. Usually taking cover is just an option and I can ignore it. It's not like the 360 days where every game had you huddled behind a wall for 90% of it. Stealth took the place of cover a while ago.

 

[Symbiotx]

Just finished watching it. I despised cover shooters already but this made me dislike them even more. I don't remember trying a single cover based shooter that was actually fun to play.

Really? I had lots of fun with Gears of War, Uncharted, Last of Us, The Order, etc.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Really thinking about it, I have to say I really don't enjoy them anymore.

 

[Sini]

Try Gears of War if you haven't yet.

I tried first game back when it came out and something other than cover ruined it for me. Don't recall what, but I think it was some turret section on a big truck? Cover based shooters weren't common back then so I didn't despise the mechanic yet.

Really? I had lots of fun with Gears of War, Uncharted, Last of Us, The Order, etc.

Last 3 are PlayStation exclusive and also you brought up The Order, which is the worst offender for unfun cover shooting?

 

[yuoke]

Really? I had lots of fun with Gears of War, Uncharted, Last of Us, The Order, etc.

Yea, TLOU and uncharted are both fun to me.

 

[MrCunningham]

I actually kinda prefer the Max Payne series with a cover system. *shrugs*

Good video. It made me pine for Vanquish as a BC title though lol

It's on Steam, if you have the PC to run it.

 

[Temeculan3000]

I actually kinda prefer the Max Payne series with a cover system. *shrugs* .

nah, Max Payne was all about not using any of your painkillers and constantly quick saving and reloading if you didn't do an encounter perfect because you need to save the painkillers for the inevitable hard part. Then you finish the game with full painkillers and never used them...

 

[Blackquill]

I knew from the start that he would use Vanquish as the exception

 

[Ivellios]

I dont play many shooters, but there is not a single one i thought "wow cover system destroyed this game" on the contrary i really liked it

Shooters i remember playing are TLoU, Uncharted, Mass Effect and Deus Ex (these last two have RPG elements, but they have cover system as well)

 

[Crossing Eden]

I dont play many shooters, but there is not a single one i thought "wow cover system destroyed this game" on the contrary i really liked it

Shooters i remember playing are TLoU, Uncharted, Mass Effect and Deus Ex (these last two have RPG elements, but they have cover system as well)

Yea a lot of the settings of these games aren't anywhere near stylized enough in their core gameplay systems, rendering, or general tone to incorporate something like vanquish mechanics. Dare I say I literally cannot imagine these games without their cover systems that wouldn't contradict or vastly affect everything else. It is VASTLY easier to imagine such scenarios. It's a good mechanic in theory and like all good mechanic in theory there's ways to do it wrong and ofc a tone of derivative games emulating the thing that did it right in the first place and while getting the basics down, miss the nuances of what it work.

 

[More_Badass]

Last 3 are PlayStation exclusive and also you brought up The Order, which is the worst offender for unfun cover shooting?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[prag16]

Okay now I watched it, and man, there are some great games in there that he's taking a dump on. I expected him to be shitting far more on the early cover shooters that followed the first Gears. Not more recent games that have a ton more going on like Quantum Break, Uncharted 4, The Last of Us, Mankind Divided, and others.

There are definitely valid points. But he is definitely presenting some biased arguments, and using Quantum Break as one of the major examples is ridiculous. He does acknowledge the wrinkles in the gameplay to a degree, but overall, if you played it as a cover shooter you were 100% doing it wrong.

Also sounds like he only ever played Mass Effect 2 and 3 with the soldier class. (And didn't play Andromeda at all, but granted a lot of people didn't unfortunately.)

We get it, Vanquish is great. Doesn't make all those other games horrible (well except The Order; I can't really defend that one).

 

[Outrun]

Well, it is its own genre isn't?

 

[Markoman]

Nah, Vanquish could've been a far better game without the cover gameplay.
The GOAT melee moves and sliding were Vanquish's highlights for me, but the game -especially the levels- were designed with an emphasis on cover shooting.

Gears sucks balls. Had so much hope for Gears 1 back then, especially it's MP. SP was bullet-sponge hell and MP was turtle run & gun with shotties. Thx, nope.

Biggest issue with cover shooters is the fact that the AI is not up to par, hence 4-5 bullet sponge enemies per "arena".

EDF is the most fun I've had with a TPS in years. Give this studio 10-20m to buff their tech and y'all will forget about cover shooters in no time.

 

[Rockandrollclown]

I actually kinda prefer the Max Payne series with a cover system. *shrugs*

Yup. The actual gameplay mechanics of Max Payne 3 are my favorite in the series.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Nah, Vanquish could've been a far better game without the cover gameplay.
The GOAT melee moves and sliding were Vanquish's highlights for me, but the game -especially the levels- were designed with an emphasis on cover shooting.

Gears sucks balls. Had so much hope for Gears 1 back then, especially it's MP. SP was bullet-sponge hell and MP was turtle run & gun with shotties. Thx, nope.

Biggest issue with cover shooters is the fact that the AI is not up to par, hence 4-5 bullet sponge enemies per "arena".

EDF is the most fun I've had with a TPS in years. Give this studio 10-20m to buff their tech and y'all will forget about cover shooters in no time.

If you've only played the first gears and are using that as an indicator that the series sucks you're doing it wrong.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

If you've only played the first gears and are using that as an indicator that the series sucks you're doing it wrong.

Yeah, Gerars 2 and 3 added a lot of interesting stuff like the tickers.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

That Gears of War boost thing looked dumb as hell, wtf.

 

[jdmonmou]

I love cover shooters for single player campaigns, but I don't like them for online multiplayer. I never got into Gears of War (except horde mode) or Uncharted multiplayer because it just wasn't fun.

 

[SomTervo]

Good video. It made me pine for Vanquish as a BC title though lol

Get it on pc 💪

 

[Markoman]

If you've only played the first gears and are using that as an indicator that the series sucks you're doing it wrong.

Nope

Rented 2, didn't finish it tho but was on the last mission. It only got worse, because they added bullet sponge melee enemies and other shitty enemy types which killed the whole tactical aspect of having cover for me.

Bought 3 for 5$ in 2013 when MS finally discovered digital sales, made it to mission 3, bored to tears, hated the look and everything else, never looked back. Not my game it seems.

 

[Doc Holliday]

There's a problem with this thesis. There weren't that many 3rd person shooters that didn't have cover to begin with. Other than RE4 and Max payne, most tps games had a cover system from the start.

FPS games on the other hand, hardly had cover systems and still don't.

 

[Puru]

I always saw it, mixed with health regen, as a way to basically skip everything about designing interesting enemies.
Pretty much all of those games will force you getting hit while you peak/shoot or try to change cover, wait for your health to come back and repeat, it completely discourages doing anything else because the enemy have no thoughts put behind them. I just find it far less satisfying than dodging projectiles directly and it's not like you couldn't abuse corners or crouch to achieve the same results which i still find absurd to this day.
Actually even level design takes a hit because you can just fill your corridors with covers at random and call it a day. Adds perfectly with not having to bother with enemies for the most enjoyable experience.
I just pass on those games now, i just don't see the appeal and i DID give them a chance, they just never deserved it.

So far this video is 100% spot on.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That Gears of War boost thing looked dumb as hell, wtf.

It's mostly used for MP. Honestly it straight up sets the skill ceiling in PvP as it becomes a cat and mouse mouse between fast movements, reading your opponent, and that brief moment where you expose yourself to take a shot all while your opponent to do the same. Really makes it the definitive TPS in regard to other MP modes.

Nope

Rented 2, didn't finish it tho but was on the last mission. It only got worse, because they added bullet sponge melee enemies and other shitty enemy types which killed the whole tactical aspect of having cover for me.

Bought 3 for 5$ in 2013 when MS finally discovered digital sales, made it to mission 3, bored to tears, hated the look and everything else, never looked back. Not my game it seems.

I think we have different definitions of bullet sponges as we're basically shooting enemies bigger and more brutish than the brutes in Halo. And the game does punish you for trying to stick to one piece of cover throughout more encounters. That's less a design flaw and more you not accommodating for that.

 

[Bigg_Oggy]

That Gears of War boost thing looked dumb as hell, wtf.

As dumb as it looks (and it looks really dumb), people make a strong use of it in multiplayer. Might confuse some players with how absurdly quick people are snapping around and can lead to easy kills.

 

[More_Badass]

Okay now I watched it, and man, there are some great games in there that he's taking a dump on. I expected him to be shitting far more on the early cover shooters that followed the first Gears. Not more recent games that have a ton more going on like Quantum Break, Uncharted 4, The Last of Us, and others

I think games like Quantum Break, Vanquish, Uncharted, The Last of Us, etc show how to use cover right because in those games, the cover was more about tactical positioning than hiding from gunfire. The Last of Us used cover for stealth, Uncharted for stealth and as cover while outflanking and outmaneuvering, Vanquish for rocket recharging pit stops, Quantum Break for a breather to assume the arena. Uncharted, Vanquish, and Quantum Break all discourage you from staying in cover through the use of grenades and rushing enemies. They want you on the move

 

[FloweryMarston]

hey nice a 2009 video

 

[Fury451]

nah, Max Payne was all about not using any of your painkillers and constantly quick saving and reloading if you didn't do an encounter perfect because you need to save the painkillers for the inevitable hard part. Then you finish the game with full painkillers and never used them...

Lol so true. Max Payne encouraged the "I'll need this later" mentality a lot, so you ended up not using your best guns or painkillers because you were saving them for the hard parts, then you got through the hard parts by ramming your head against the wall until you broke through using only your weakest guns and never ended up using all that shit you saved anyway.

 

[Waddle Dee]

That Gears of War boost thing looked dumb as hell, wtf.

It's the reason multiplayer is so fun in Gears. Bouncing around like a pinball and trying to get that perfect kill with the shotty.

 

[Baron Von Beans]

I didn't watch the video. But I find its more the developers for following what everyone else is doing is what flooded the market with the same shit over and over again. Leaving creativity and innovation in the past, instead of at the forefront, where it should be, with these powerful machines we have.

 

[Sad Affleck]

I haven't enjoyed a single cover-based shooter. I tolerated Gears of War because it looked pretty, played a couple more to see if I could grow to like them, I didn't and then I noped out. I completed Max Payne 3 without ever entering cover except in scripted sequences when the game forced me too. I really like the Mass Effect series but the only part I hated was the combat. I'll never play Andromeda since combat seems to be that game's only good part.

TLDR: I really dislike cover-based combat systems.

nah, Max Payne was all about not using any of your painkillers and constantly quick saving and reloading if you didn't do an encounter perfect because you need to save the painkillers for the inevitable hard part. Then you finish the game with full painkillers and never used them...

Max Payne was always about finding the coolest and most impressive way to clear a combat encounter.

 

[afternoon delight]

nah, Max Payne was all about not using any of your painkillers and constantly quick saving and reloading if you didn't do an encounter perfect because you need to save the painkillers for the inevitable hard part. Then you finish the game with full painkillers and never used them...

Hahaha, so true! Especially on higher difficulties. I actually found levels very hard and well paced in number 2, always rationing until the inevitable wave section.

Internet fist bump friendo.

I think regenerating health and it's over abundance have a lot to do with this mechanic of start stop start stop waaaaait and it's very boring.

 

[WarRock]

Where is my John Wick based TPS?

 

[Markoman]

Hahaha, so true! Especially on higher difficulties. I actually found levels very hard and well paced in number 2, always rationing until the inevitable wave section.

Internet fist bump friendo.

I think regenerating health and it's over abundance have a lot to do with this mechanic of start stop start stop waaaaait and it's very boring.

Haha, we're basically talking every shooter here especially those from 1998-2007.

You get the rocket launcher in HL1 "Cool, but I won't use it, coz I will surely need this later on"

 

[KDR_11k]

Never liked it much but others seem to love it. Good cover system, bad cover system, they all play the same to me. And yeah, the gameplay design space gets reeeeally small when you rarely move and all your attacks are point-and-shoot.

 

[Mullah88]

It Killed Socom thanks to sony and zipper

 

[MrCunningham]

Hahaha, so true! Especially on higher difficulties. I actually found levels very hard and well paced in number 2, always rationing until the inevitable wave section.

Internet fist bump friendo.

I think regenerating health and it's over abundance have a lot to do with this mechanic of start stop start stop waaaaait and it's very boring.

Hey I loved the first two Max Payne games. But I always felt that the addition of a cover system was a nice addition to the third game, and it felt appropriate to me, especially given the Joh-Woo/ Matrix inspiration the original games took from. But at the same time, I never felt that the cover system was overbearing in Max Payne 3. There were a few issues I had with the third game, but the cover system was not one of them..

Alan Wake honestly felt more like a real sequel to Max Payne 1 and 2, the gunplay was pretty much identical despite the obvious lack of shoot dodging and the fatigue element, and of course the flashlight play mechanic.

 

[Phediuk]

I dunno, Gears of War was pretty damn good.

 

[Astral/H3X]

Having cover ruined RE6.

Not because the mechanics of the game suck, but because the level designers couldn't think of something that wasn't Uncharted with the John Woo ass mechanics. Complete disconnect.

 

[VendettaRed07]

I remember seeing gears for the first time thinking it looked so fucking stupid. "What? I have to hide like the entire time? Where's the fun in that!"

While yeah I was wrong about it because I did really like the game when I got a chance to play it. But for the most part I think my initial instincts/ reaction to cover based shooters was mostly still how I feel. It's really held the genre back from going in a more fun direction. Re cover mechanic works for a lot of games but far too many implement it

 

[Gai Murakumo]

Gears of War is probably the best example on how to make cover shooters right.

 

[horkrux]

If it ruined them, then why am I having so much fun with Gears.
Why the fuck did I just start another playthrough of Gears 1? What went wrong

There's just a certain rhythm to good cover-based shooters that makes me enjoy them so much. In Gears I really like to take my chances and go from cover to cover, making my way towards the enemy instead of sitting back and emptying my magazines from afair, and it's just so satisfying when it pays off.

 

[Accoun]

Yeah. I got Binary Domain some time ago. People were kinda hyping it up as an hidden gem, but... I'm not a fan of the gameplay, mostly because of it being cover-based. Doesn't help that IIRC it was kinda wonky with mouse & keyboard. And I hate playing shooters on pad.

I'm still debating on getting back to it due to everything else (it was supposed to be pretty charming once it actually gets off) especially since I didn't really get far at all, but still...
Same with Spec Ops: The Line.