• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"How Cover Systems Ruined Shooters" a video by Trubo button

Mass Effect 2's cover mechanics made me dread playing the actual gameplay sections. Yeah abilities lessen the boredom and some enemies force you from cover, but it's still mostly a game of kill-a-mole.
That's why Vanguard is the superior class, because of its 'fuck yo cover' Charge.

Too bad ME:A's gameplay will die with the game.
 

Keihart

Member
I really disagree with the idea that Uncharted is a lot more fun on easy. I'll give you that Crushing just makes it boring and discourages movement, for sure, but Hard is the sweet spot, to me.

For example, you decide to run torwards an enemy, shooting from the hip while you close that distance. On normal, two hits will kill a regular enemy, that's it, you shoot twice and they're done, but on Hard, you can hit them the 2 or 3 times you'll have time to before you get close enough to them, and that will greatly reduce their HP, just not enough to kill them. You can then hit them with the melee button, and because their health is low, you'll go straight for a finisher instead of engaging in the more lengthy combat scene. The fact that the enemies last longer make combat more mobile and engaging, while you're still perfectly fine after performing this maneuver, which wouldn't be the case on Crushing, you'd probably just die.

It's not perfect, the Uncharted games can be quite unbalanced, and you'll deal with some nasty difficulty spikes on Hard, but it's absolutely worth dealing with them in exchange for having more meaningful encounters for the vast majority of the time. On Easy you'll just shoot them and they're dead, that's no incentive to move, it just makes it easier, but it's still more practical to just hang in there and shoot them from a safe distance. If just being possible is enough incentive for you, then it's also possible on Hard, on top of having some actual incentive to move like enemies throwing grenades and flanking you.

As far as Naughty Dog games go, I think The Last of Us on Hard is still by far their most balanced and fun experience.

Uncharted 4 combat can get very awesome and cover is very fun to use because of melee options and blind fire, even on harder dificulties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZcVhWXLT5Y
 
How'd I guess that I'd be in for a 15-20 minute video narrated by a guy with a British accent.

The classic, "I figured it out, everyone else is wrong" video. I still appreciate them, but sometimes they can be laughable.

I could only get through half of this video before calling it quits. His basic complaint is that cover shooters aren't fast run and gun shooters. Well duh. They aren't twin stick shooters either. Yea, there are poor cover shooters, but there are poor other types of shooters too. The problem isn't cover shooters. It's the implementation of some cover shooters.

Amen. These videos always just dribble down into, "I dont like these things cause they arent like the things I like!" which is completely fine. But then they get past around like objective gospel and everyone links to this shit for years when you have any discussion... "There was a video made about it, its true."
 
I could only get through half of this video before calling it quits. His basic complaint is that cover shooters aren't fast run and gun shooters. Well duh. They aren't twin stick shooters either. Yea, there are poor cover shooters, but there are poor other types of shooters too. The problem isn't cover shooters. It's the implementation of some cover shooters.
 
I think it is completely true that context matters when it comes to the games. It would make sense to have something Gears( wall bouncing) or Vanquish in a setting that is more 'ground'.

I always thought that a better way make cover fun is to have something like a suppression mechanic, all cover being destructible, and smooth movement options. Some games seem to have one or the other , but never at the same time.

The suppression mechanic is mostly for the enemies where it would require the player to pin the enemy down so that player can move in and out of cover. A suppressed enemy that is out of the open would stop firing and retreat to seek cover allowing the player to move about. Destructible cover would put a time limit on the cover, but each cover would different some better than others.



The Heat shootout scene like what More_Badass mentioned and another scene from The Division shortfilm.
 

jett

D-Member
That video was on fucking point. I especially like how he shat over Max Payne 3. I have no idea what people see in that thing.
 
I could only get through half of this video before calling it quits. His basic complaint is that cover shooters aren't fast run and gun shooters. Well duh. They aren't twin stick shooters either. Yea, there are poor cover shooters, but there are poor other types of shooters too. The problem isn't cover shooters. It's the implementation of some cover shooters.

One of his strongest points IMO is explaining how mechanics can be expanded to better incorporate cover using Quantum Break. Based on that, his basic complaint is not that cover shooters aren't fast, run-and-gun shooters.

And as for the bolded, what? What makes you think he disagrees with that?
 

jadedm17

Member
No.

Gears of War was amazing, btw.

I'll agree not every game needs to copy, like how most FPS tried to be Call of Duty.

Personally I like cover based co-op shooters.

people should actually watch the video

Sure, but it's hard to stay open when you disagree with the title at the start.
Edit : I'm also of the opinion 8-12 minutes for this type of video; 20 minutes is an investment for a Youtube video.
 
That video was on fucking point. I especially like how he shat over Max Payne 3. I have no idea what people see in that thing.
Have you played Quantum Break? It and MP3 share the same DNA. Cover is just there to plan out your next route and plan of action, and time your explosion of movement for the most opportune moment. If you're playing MP3 hiding behind cover, you're hamstringing the game.
 

Gaogaogao

Member
No.

Gears of War was amazing, btw.

I'll agree not every game needs to copy, like how most FPS tried to be Call of Duty.

Personally I like cover based co-op shooters.

great thanks for stopping by


Have you played Quantum Break? It and MP3 share the same DNA. Cover is just there to plan out your next route and plan of action, and time your explosion of movement for the most opportune moment. If you're playing MP3 hiding behind cover, you're hamstringing the game.

they slowed down the movement to a degree that you are strongly encouraged to just stop and take cover

another thing that encourages you to take cover is how your arsenal is limited to 2 or 3 weapons, which means your ammo is more limited. better make it count!
 

Wonko_C

Member
Pre-Gears games like Winback: Covert Operations on N64 and Time Crisis on PSOne are excellent cover shooters.
 
they slowed down the movement to a degree that you are strongly encouraged to just stop and take cover

another thing that encourages you to take cover is how your arsenal is limited to 2 or 3 weapons, which means your ammo is more limited. better make it count!
Every enemy killed is more ammo and weapons, encouraging you to stay on the move, snatching new weapons and ammo to refresh without stopping

Cover in MP3 is the planning phase. "From here, I can take out those two, switch my shotgun, dive over that table, shoot the three enemies taking cover on the other side, take their smgs, reload"
 

Gaogaogao

Member
Every enemy killed is more ammo and weapons, encouraging you to stay on the move, snatching new weapons and ammo to refresh without stopping

sure ok.

I think they did a much better job of that in max payne 1 and 2 where the movement was faster, you carried a whole plethora of guns and ammo to experiment with, and no cover system. more painkillers too.

I think there were fewer reasons to stop.
 

Zeta Oni

Member
they slowed down the movement to a degree that you are strongly encouraged to just stop and take cover

another thing that encourages you to take cover is how your arsenal is limited to 2 or 3 weapons, which means your ammo is more limited. better make it count!

If your taking cover in Max Payne 3 with some rare exceptions, your playing the game wrong imo.

This is what it looks like at its best.

(most/every gun fight in the game taken on with minimal cover)

And that's why I cant agree with the video, some of the games listed are great examples of how it should be done for cover based shooters.
 
D

Deleted member 325805

Unconfirmed Member
Interesting video, but what I took away the most was I really want to play the Gears of War series.
 

heringer

Member
"In Vanquish your punishment is playing a cover shooter. Think about that.".

I like cover shooters, but that was a good line, heh.
 
I struggle to think of a cover shooter I enjoy. It's just iron sights taken to the extreme, an excuse to slow down the gameplay even more to make things easier for gamepad users.

"In Vanquish your punishment is playing a cover shooter. Think about that.".

I like cover shooters, but that was a good line, heh.

Lol, very true.
 
One of his strongest points IMO is explaining how mechanics can be expanded to better incorporate cover using Quantum Break. Based on that, his basic complaint is not that cover shooters aren't fast, run-and-gun shooters.

And as for the bolded, what? What makes you think he disagrees with that?

The Quantum Break criticism is just him complaining about the flaws in that one game. That perfectly illustrates my point. It was all about the problems caused by the game's use of the auto cover mechanics. It had no general applicability to all cover shooters. The only general criticism of cover shooters that I got from the video was that they are slower paced than fast run and gun shooters. That's the "No duh" part of my previous comment.

The part that you bolded where I said "Yea, there are poor cover shooters, but there are poor other types of shooters too" once again points to the fact that many of the criticisms in the video are just pointing out flaws in particular games that just happen to be cover shooters. There is no unifying theme why cover shooters harm games other than his desire to have faster gameplay.
 
The Quantum Break criticism is just him complaining about the flaws in that one game. That perfectly illustrates my point. It was all about the problems caused by the game's use of the auto cover mechanics. It had no general applicability to all cover shooters. The only general criticism of cover shooters that I got from the video was that they are slower paced than fast run and gun shooters. That's the "No duh" part of my previous comment.

The part that you bolded where I said "Yea, there are poor cover shooters, but there are poor other types of shooters too" once again points to the fact that many of the criticisms in the video are just pointing out flaws in particular games that just happen to be cover shooters. There is no unifying theme why cover shooters harm games other than his desire to have faster gameplay.

That Quantum Break part wasn't the part in the video I was talking about. He has a general section in the second half about good applications of cover mechanics and how many games inch their way towards that.
 

jett

D-Member
Have you played Quantum Break? It and MP3 share the same DNA. Cover is just there to plan out your next route and plan of action, and time your explosion of movement for the most opportune moment. If you're playing MP3 hiding behind cover, you're hamstringing the game.

I dunno, doesn't really look good to me, and seems to have performance issues on PC. I have a multitude of issues with MP3. This video in particularly mention how slow movement is, in contrast to the original Remedy games.
 

RPGam3r

Member
would you like to name these 'data points'? I have alot of respect for players that perform well with analog sticks, but I think most people would be better off with a mouse or more advanced motion controls in the future.

I'm talking about the many FPS games on consoles that don't rely on cover mechanics, but still do well critically and at market. I'm saying this thriving genre on consoles wouldn't be possible if it was "in spite" of the input type.
 
Watched the whole video thinking that it missed the point.

Yes, Vanquish is awesome, and yes, for some, quick movement options and acrobatics make for a better shooter, and yes, cover hasn't been utilized in ways that are very interesting in most games, especially The Order.

BUT... my first introduction to cover shooters were with two games that define it for me, and were wholly and incomprehensibly missing from this video - Full Spectrum Warrior and the Brothers in Arms games.

Cover wasn't some safe haven to regenerate health, it was your only way to avoid getting shot, even once, which would seriously hurt or kill.

The idea was Find em, Fix em, Flank em, Finish em, and a set of mechanics that properly communicated how deadly gun combat is, while providing you some reality based means to overcome that danger.

In those games the enemy would hit the field, you'd make contact (preferrably with you behind cover and the enemy exposed -- the Find em part of the formula), and both enemies and players would then seek cover. But at this point you don't just do the pop-up and aim for the helmet routine - you establish a base of fire to suppress the enemy (light machine guns that excel in saturating an area with fire rather than precision point fire), fixing the enemy in place heads-down behind their cover so you could then move your assault element with some safety into a flanking position that could shoot the enemy where they they were exposed. Similarly, you wanted to move between different cover positions yourself to both avoid and seek flanks against your enemies. And if you had explosives you could literally destroy cars or light cover to remove those positions from the field.

In this model you want enemies that shift positions to compensate for the player, to force players to account for suppression and to seek flanking opportunities. This is the epitome of cover based shooting, and its realistic roots in military shooters. It hasn't fared well because shooters have moved into more linear forward only affairs where you aren't nearly as worried about being flanked, along with AI and mechanics that don't allow meaningful suppression. And yeah, add to this the pinpoint precision grenade spam of COD and its clones to force players into the cover where they can shrug off some bullets with their regenerating health and you've made bullets no longer scary, which removes the need to rely upon cover, but you move further away from tactics meant to avoid taking damage altogether.

Gears 1 excelled at this at high difficulties because it simplified this to an arcade level, and put the player into confined areas where you had to fight and maneuver between cover positions while seeking advantage. Cliffy called it a horizontal platformer for a reason - and those qualities only got diminished as the game blew up in size and scope and focused more on spectacle and shoot-the-glowy parts gameplay.

I'm fine with the idea that cover ruins shooters for some, but without tackling games like Brothers in Arms and Full Spectrum Warrior and others you miss the foundational aspects of these systems and what they do right when designed for it.
 
I'm talking about the many FPS games on consoles that don't rely on cover mechanics, but still do well critically and at market. I'm saying this thriving genre on consoles wouldn't be possible if it was "in spite" of the input type.

Nearly all of these games still find ways to tie you down in one spot via ADS and the like. The only real exceptions are Doom, Halo (which has very generous aim assist), and Overwatch (which in addition to generous auto aim has lots of literal aimbot classes and such).

Cover systems are just one way of tying you down so you don't sticky aim to hit anything. Games that actually have lots of mobility tend not to be very successful on consoles.
 
I always had fancied the idea of cover shooters being a streamlined extension of tactical FPS games instead of the pop-a-head they mostly became.
 

Khezu

Member
Well I'm not going to say cover shooters are terrible since a good majority in this thread seem to like them, but I personally have never enjoyed it, and have skipped a bunch of games because of it.

Though I'm just sick of shooters in general cover or otherwise.
 
I will say I have had more fun with games like Vanquish and Doom than I have with most cover shooters, but that being said I am still able to find some enjoyment in certain cover based shooters.
 
That's not fun

And it leads to me never using the attack at all.

The fun is in using your melee attack in intelligent and safe ways. That limitation combined with melee attacks' high power is what makes them interesting. The attack completely draining your meter is what enables the developers to make it as powerful and battle-deciding as it is - it's more of a super attack or a desperation move than it is a regular part of your arsenal like in a lot of shooters. If you don't see the situations in which it's useful and instead forgo using it and play safely, that's a failure on your part, not the game's.
 
The fun is in using your melee attack in intelligent and safe ways. That limitation combined with melee attacks' high power is what makes them interesting. The attack completely draining your meter is what enables the developers to make it as powerful and battle-deciding as it is - it's more of a super attack or a desperation move than it is a regular part of your arsenal like in a lot of shooters. If you don't see the situations in which it's useful and instead forgo using it and play safely, that's a failure on your part, not the game's.
Nah, I have never found any situation where that attack is useful.

Is it really worth pulling out this super move on such a chaotic battlefield? If you misjudge its use even a little, then you'll get torn to shreds in an instant, especially on hard mode. Why bother with such a move in this game? There is plenty of ammo on the field, so it's not like the game encourages you to use it. Also, the overheating cooldown in Vanquish takes fricken FOREVER. You'll use a melee attack, and then you'll be forced to retreat to a wall and wait for your energy to recharge. You end up wasting more time and doing less damage in the end.

The melee attacks should have done less damage and not waste your entire meter. A super melee attack should have been a charge move that does overheat the suit. That's the only way I can see the melee system being fun and actually useful.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Nearly all of these games still find ways to tie you down in one spot via ADS and the like. The only real exceptions are Doom, Halo (which has very generous aim assist), and Overwatch (which in addition to generous auto aim has lots of literal aimbot classes and such).

Cover systems are just one way of tying you down so you don't sticky aim to hit anything. Games that actually have lots of mobility tend not to be very successful on consoles.

Halo, Borderlands, Overwatch, Destiny, Doom, Titanfall, Wolfenstein, Far Cry..."not very successful."
 

Keihart

Member
Nah, I have never found any situation where that attack is useful.

Is it really worth pulling out this super move on such a chaotic battlefield? If you misjudge its use even a little, then you'll get torn to shreds in an instant, especially on hard mode. Why bother with such a move in this game? There is plenty of ammo on the field, so it's not like the game encourages you to use it. Also, the overheating cooldown in Vanquish takes fricken FOREVER. You'll use a melee attack, and then you'll be forced to retreat to a wall and wait for your energy to recharge. You end up wasting more time and doing less damage in the end.

The melee attacks should have done less damage and not waste your entire meter. A super melee attack should have been a charge move that does overheat the suit. That's the only way I can see the melee system being fun and actually useful.

Melee attacks are very useful when trying to master the game
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Well I love the implementation in Gears, so like everything else in gaming: if you do a shit job, the results are shit.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
But the best way to sum it up is this. Cover didn't ruin shooters. Cover evolved shooters, by introducing a different way to approach the genre. You can have your in-your-face combat like Doom and Dusk, you can have your slower cover-based battles like Gears, you have an wide spectrum of variety in between from the hectic momentum of Vanquish and Quantum Break to the either-way effectiveness of Uncharted.

Agreed. Ironically in a video that spends 20 minutes complaining that cover shooters are all the same and thus bad, it comes off more that he's upset that cover mechanics made it so shooters aren't all the same anymore. I like a good circle-strafe as much as anyone, but cover mechanics add a lot to a game when used well. He's right that a bad cover system or using the cover system as a crutch (The Order is a well-chosen example there) is a drag, but the same could be said of any poorly implemented mechanic.
 

jg4xchamp

Member
If you played Quantum Break like a cover shooter, you probably didn't enjoy it.

For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jsaabQryXk

Also that line about Gears having a low skill ceiling? I don't know about that.
In Single player absolutely it does, in multi sure it's there. But you'd be hard pressed to really argue Gears of War as one of the deepest shooters ever made. It largely benefits from there being only a handful tps multiplayer that are good. I would argue it's fairly outclassed by the best of the best fps games from a mechanical depth standpoint.
 
But the best way to sum it up is this. Cover didn't ruin shooters. Cover evolved shooters, by introducing a different way to approach the genre. You can have your in-your-face combat like Doom and Dusk, you can have your slower cover-based battles like Gears, you have an wide spectrum of variety in between from the hectic momentum of Vanquish and Quantum Break to the either-way effectiveness of Uncharted.

I have to disagree because I believe that the cover shooter craze of the last generation did actually ruin third-person shooters. The vast majority of these games heavily penalized any attempt from the player to play creatively instead of religiously following the action and movement beats that the developers planned for. Almost all of these games use hitscan weapons and regenerating health which means that the only freedom of movement or creativity they allow is over which chest-high wall you are going to choose to cower behind next. Max Payne 3 is not a typical example of a cover-based shooter because it uses projectiles that you can dodge.
 

ghostjoke

Banned
I was worried he wasn't going to mention Vanquish for a bit.

I fall into the camp which thought it was cool at first, but after a few game,s it all started to blend together and the downtime become noticeable. Slow and tactical can be good but immobile is an exercise in patience when everything around you seems to be part of a fast-paced action game.
 

smik

Member
Video is kinda off base, brings up some points but in general cover shooters are great

he went on to say it doesnt take skill and is not tactical, which i dont agree with. play Gears, TLOU and Uncharted and Ghost Recon FS and tell me its not tactical or fun.

Especially in Multiplayer, Cover shooters can bring on some great gameplay / cop op experiences
 
Couldn't agree more with the part about cover shooters being more fun on Easy. I absolutely love diving, rolling, melee-ing and rope-swinging in Uncharted 4, for example, but on the higher difficulty modes you just die too damn fast. That game has such wonderful controls and shooting mechanics, but Crushing locks you down into a stop'n'pop slog.

But then I think the same is true for Vanquish on God Hard. The way it halves your energy bar is just much too limiting, and you end up having to play fall back on cover much more often. I can't really think of many shooters that are still fun and well-balanced on their highest difficulty modes.
 
How'd I guess that I'd be in for a 15-20 minute video narrated by a guy with a British accent.

The classic, "I figured it out, everyone else is wrong" video. I still appreciate them, but sometimes they can be laughable.



Amen. These videos always just dribble down into, "I dont like these things cause they arent like the things I like!" which is completely fine. But then they get past around like objective gospel and everyone links to this shit for years when you have any discussion... "There was a video made about it, its true."

Honestly, this.

This guy is presenting his poorly thought out opinion as if its objective fact.

Yes cover shooters reduce the dimensionality of movement to 2-dimensions. Yes, that simplifies combat (for the time you are in cover)... yes, that reduces complexity... I'm still struggling to see why a reduction in complexity is objectively bad?

Making something simpler =/= making something objectively worse. He even admits in the same fucking video that some games (shows mario) have a very simple set of mechanics but utilize those in varied ways.... err... so... why didn't it occur to him that the issue is thus not cover simplifying movement but the lack of variety in implementing cover mechanics in some games.

Honestly, this video was shit and a I can't stand arrogant stuff like this that basically boils down to "I don't like X, thus it's objectively bad".

I got to the part where he basically starts saying, "everything needs to be vanquish" and I turned that shit off.
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
lI'm still struggling to see why a reduction in complexity is objectively bad?

Yeah I hate that talk about how much more amazing games are with "depth of gameplay" or whatever.

All that matters is that it feels good to play. If that's because it gives you lots of freedom, or absolutely nails a really simple gameplay loop - I really couldn't give a shit.

"Deep = good" can go rot.
 

NinjaBoiX

Member
Meh, he makes some good points but some utterly bullshit ones too. Mostly seemed like a pretty negative video produced to push his agenda.

"Aiming with an analog stick is difficult because camera movement is based on how long you hold the direction for." - no it's not, not at all.

"Being in cover gives you basically two options, move along the cover or pop out for a shot." - no it doesn't, what about flanking? Misdirection? Just a minute to check out your surroundings?

He sounds like he's just a bit shit at games and has no imagination.
 
Top Bottom