2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
Dreams-Visions said:
Isn't that a good thing though?
This isn't sport, why does there have to be a winner?
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Kinect now recognizes upper torso while sitting. Lower torso, not so much.
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Isn't that a good thing though?
This isn't sport, why does there have to be a winner?
Shake Appeal
Member
The best thing is whoever did it pronounced it "hyper-BOLE".Amir0x said:
You're still wrong about Limbo, though.
Shake Appeal said:
pfft 2 hour art sniff game with shitty trial and error gameplay and no replay value. pass.
Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light is the game for true gamers. Accept defeat or be shamed.
P.S. i think if I recall it was sp0rsk who did the impression. All this time later, and PS3 still performs like shit. When this generation ends and PS3 is in third place and still the complete financial disaster it has been for Sony, the quote is gonna be even funnier.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Amir0x said:
Appreciate that.
There is, I think, just one thing that separates the Kinect 'haters' from the Kinect 'lovers' - and that is whether it is ever capable of fulfilling the potential that it claims to have.
Sure the technology has potential, at least in the imagination. Sure it is laggy, inaccurate, horrible to some extent and has a very narrow range of seemingly casual and possibly short-lived applications at launch.
The big question is, what if it never works? What if it is never capable of delivering the potential that some people see in it?
Just once in my longish life I had the (misfortune/salutory learning experience)* of being tangentially involved in a hugely hyped technology that just plain didn't work that way it was envisaged. This one .
And that experience causes me concern about the future of Kinect. It isn't just about the technology, it is also about what Microsoft is trying to do with it.
It seems to me that the focus is purely on short term increase in XBox360 sales. I don't see anything that moves gaming forward, not even failed-but-plausible attempts that might give me some hope or desire for the thing.
Nothing.
So, while I will freely admit to being a manchild (it comes with the territory of still gaming at 50+) there's nothing in Kinect right now that tempts me. Not in the least. Not until or unless I see something it can do better than now, better than an alternative, and promising for the future. I get my manchild kicks from the Wii.
So, not yet for me. Possibly not ever.
Alx
Member
Amir0x said:
I didn't notice a slowdown in the release of "traditional" games, though. There are the usual Halo, Forza, Fable... Microsoft first party was never so big actually, but the only consequence of their kinect strategy that we can perceive is mainly the projects given to Rare, and most people will consider that it's no big loss anyway.
If MS hadn't spent this money on kinect, they would have spent it elsewhere, for sure (or at least some of it), but I don't think they would have used it to create a new license or buy a studio. They'd rather have more features like facebook/netflix/ESPN/..., or jsut more ads.
Amir0x said:
I think it's more than a real shift in their strategy, kinect is a shift in technology itself. The apparition of a 3D camera for 150$ is a little revolution, much more than inertial sensors or multi-touch screens. I don't know how it will fare in the common living rooms, but I'm sure it will soon appear everywhere in malls, airports, shops, underground stations, hospitals etc. I know a lot of researchers who can't wait to get their hands on it, and we already have a lot of commercial applications in mind.
If things turn out the way I foresee, pushing this technology to be the first on the market could be a very smart move from MS, even if they start with anecdotal applications like videogames.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
If you're sitting, I'd think the upper torso would be sufficient. But I'm no doctor.
Oh, this is old.
Well then.
/drops pants, starts dancing.
Oh, this is old.
Well then.
/drops pants, starts dancing.
Alx said:
My mind is blown honestly. Logically one would think that existing motion capture techniques with far greater accuracy/fidelity and computational capability than kinect would be what researchers would be interested in getting their hands on but no, these mythical researchers are interested in kinect. Mocap/skeletal and facial tracking is not the future, it's been around for a while and there's a very good reason why mocap suits are/have been used for proper productions thus far. Just look towards actual kinect gameplay videos and see for yourself. But what do i know
DangerousDave
Member
InaudibleWhispa said:
In this generation? Ensemble, FASA and ACES, and Hired Gun. Well, also Carbonated Games, but they were doing casual crap, so, who cares. But, also, in the last 3/4 years they lost also the support of Bizarre, RealtimeWorlds, Bungie, FeelPlus, Silicon Knights, and a long list of devs that worked exclusively for MS.
InaudibleWhispa said:
Oh, yeah, i can see all Rare games being casual stuff. 343 is starting with next Halo, but it won't be next year. Forza, maybe, if they are not forced to port Forza 3 to Kinect. And I really doubt Lionhead has something. They just released Fable III, they are also with Milo stuff, and Lionhead always announce their games years before finishing them. About FireBird, is a tool-support studio. All the rumors of working in a new game is simply a linkedin profile of one member saying that they're supporting (not making) a unnanounced game.
I see very clear that too many efforts are going to Kinect, and too few to hardcore games (first party or good relationship with third party working exclusively for 360).
Iced_Eagle
Member
Razgreez said:
Even the current mocap suits and such had their infancy days.
The great thing is, is that this tech can be improved so much (both through software, and absolutely with hardware). Imagine doing all of that mocap done through 5 figure motion capture setups with Kinect. The current tech is in no way capable of handling that, but that is where this is going long term.
Of course it will have glitches, every first gen product of a new technology is the same way. However, the fact that MS is really putting itself out there on this one is a noble move, and one that I think will absolutely pay off long term (both in terms of tech, games, and future hardware). Sony and Nintendo are way behind on jumping into this technology, likely because they thought it would be too expensive, or just wasn't feasible. I'm sure you will see similar Kinect style interfaces from all 3 big names for their next consoles.
Alx
Member
Razgreez said:
You're just missing the big picture, and the main difference introduced by the sensor : the user is not instrumented. Of course you can track gestures with high precision, with a user covered with tiny reflective balls and different sensors, in a perfect recording studios. But how will it help for elderly or handicapped people monitoring ? agressive behaviour detection ? people / object counting ? sign language recognition ? lost child detection ? interactive advertising ?
All of these are active research topics. They require non-instrumented users, in non-controlled environments. Traditional computer vision is currently the most used technology, but the evolution to 3D computer vision is a HUGE improvement, both on reliability and on the type of information you can extract.
Alx said:
The consequence is that those games were in the pipeline for quite some time, but now that they're out or about to be out, the silence is deafening. Yes, Microsoft first party was never huge... but like anything, they provided many big experiences that were pretty enjoyable. Not all the time, but some of the time.
I just think it's pretty clear something changed, and that something is Kinect.
Alx said:
I would have honestly been more impressed with the potential if Microsoft didn't puss out and go with some cheaper version of Kinect then the one that was initially planned. "Impressed" just in terms of its practical application to "researchers", that is.
Amir0x said:
They might be playing it safe, so that the hardware is profitable and they're able to drop the price on it even if it's not very successful.
I just think this much energy devoted to it is a bad idea. I'm sure there had to be people in the Xbox division that really wanted this to be a brand new system instead, and given that it's been 5 years since the 360 launched, that would make sense.
I wasn't gaming on modern consoles when the Sega CD or 32X hit, but this sounds like a similar stopgap.
Alx
Member
Amir0x said:
The specs as they are are more than sufficient for many applications. None of the topics I mentioned need a sub-cm precision, and a 320x240 resolution is enough (especially considering that until now, 3D sensors had a much worse resolution for a much higher price).
And the 150$ price is already so criticized that I don't get why people complain that MS reduced their specs to limit costs.
DangerousDave said:
You and Amir0x do have a point about 360 exclusives/first party titles changing focus - the problem with Kinect as I see it is that MS as of now has left the core audience with only Gears 3 for a whole year as console exclusive content goes - Sony on the other hand with Move handles things much better IMO, they have many promising core traditional first party titles for next year plus the inevitable Move games...MS on the other hand looks like they don't keep that balance between their new peripheral and their already existing core profile/audience by focusing almost entirely next year to Kinect.
As I said earlier as of now MS hasn't announced anything for next year besides Gears 3 and I'm saying as of now because I still believe that they can announce something in the next months (when their Kinect launch focus is over) though the chances are looking thinner and thinner about something like that...on the other hand it doesn't make sense for MS to not have any other core traditional games planned for 2011, do they really have that much confidence in a new and unproven peripheral like Kinect? still doesn't make sense to me. :/
supermackem
Banned
Amir0x said:
There has to be a point though, where you have to say this is both cost effective and enough for what we want to do or you end up with the pc type upgrade every year cause i need the extra fps cost be damned.:lol
InaudibleWhispa
Member
ACES made PC simulations, not 360 games. FASA I don't see as a major loss and Hired Gun was created just to port Halo to PC. In terms of MGS having teams to create 360 games, I wouldn't say they're any worse off than at the start of the generation.DangerousDave said:
When it comes to third party devs, yeah they've lost some exclusive support there, but so has everyone. Tekken, Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, GTA and now Insomniac for Sony... exclusives are just narrowing for everyone, it makes little sense now for third party devs to limit their market to one console. The difference is of course that Sony's first party devs are making up for it, but I still think that there are a good few first party games at MGS that haven't been announced.
With regards to Rare, it depends how you define casual. Viva Pinata, for example, is a fantastic game and I'd be more than happy for them to create another similar experience. I don't think that all of their current projects will be ultra casual Kinect games, but we'll have to wait and see. I'm confident that we'll be seeing at least one new Rare game next year.DangerousDave said:
Halo probably won't be next year, but with Gears releasing the 360 doesn't desperately need another AAA shooter. A new Forza I think is a certainty, and I think it likely that whatever the Milo project has spawned into could see the light of day. I won't lie and say that I think Microsoft is going to provide a lot for the hardcore market next year. I think if you're totally not interested in even the exclusive core Kinect games, it's looking pretty bleak. But I do think there will certainly be more than Gears 3 to look forward to. It's way too premature to say that's all they will have and it's not unprecedented for Microsoft to announce major titles less than a year before their release (in Gears 2's case, the first teaser showed up just 8 months before release).
Their major focus at E310 was naturally Kinect, and at TGS they obviously wanted to unveil their Japanese Kinect support, so I think there is reason to hold none-Kinect announcements, should any currently exist, back.
Alx
Member
Amir0x said:
Well you have the kind of researcher who's always looking for futuristic hardware, and the one who's trying to work with something that will lead to a realistic product less than 3 years from now. I'm rather of the second category.
Of course, "the more precision, the better", but you have to identify a point when the hardware is "good enough" for practical applications. And that's now.
I think most if not all first party productions will have some sort of Kinect feature. Time and time again MS indicated that Kinect is in fact their new system. As for a Rare game next year, it all depends on what happened early 2009. If they cancelled everything in production and started from scratch with pre-production and everything, it'll take at least till early 2012 to see larger more classic Rare-like games. If they cancelled everything and only went ahead with smaller projects like Kinect Sports we might see several more casual mini-game compilation like games. If they continued to work on projects started before 2009 we will see at least one 'AAA' production next year. It all depends on how they divided their resources and what Microsoft greenlit after early 2009.InaudibleWhispa said:
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Sure, but I don't think it'll be to the extent that all MGS games will be Kinect exclusive. Most, if not all will probably at least have "This game is enhanced with Kinect" boxart, as Fable III was originally supposed to, but I think they'd be mad to have everyone working on Kinect-only games.[Nintex] said:
They did bring a solid line-up to TGS though. Grasshopper Manufacture's Codename D, Grounding's Project Draco and NanaOn-Sha's Haunt sound intresting and all being published by MGS. Well they are nice ''announcements'', but time wil tell how these games play and feel. Next to that you have Crytek's Codename: Kingdoms and MGS internal Star Wars and Disney games. All those games have no release dates though, so maby some 2012 projects. Crytek games is the only one thats non-kinect.
Amir0x said:
I appreciate your clarification, but lets get serious as to why these threads become about you (Kinect ones anyways). To summarize :
You have thrown out moneyhatting
Controls are shit and unredeemable based on your very limited experience with it
Non "hardcore" opinons do not matter on this forum
If you like Kinect then you cannot be "hardcore", you are delusional or whatever
.
.
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Because you have those nice red letters beside your name, it now gives carte blanch for other people to shit up these threads and then to make it worse you will quote some of them with an obligitory
or lol, causing people to post more shit in hopes you will quote them.I'm not going back to link your threads or even argue this point further, it is not one I can "win" or even care to.
Your opinions are quite valid, your presentation of how you post them here is questionable. I have never seen another new technolgy thread on Gaf that are allowed to degrade to this level
Let's hope we all get it our of our system when the actual OT thread comes out
plagiarize
Banned
would suck for dancing games compared to kinect, could probably handle head tracking, and doesn't have a mic.mrklaw said:
Amir0x, i know this is something i've tried to say to many people over the last few years, but no matter how successful motion control becomes it isn't going to erase the type of games you like to play.
hardcore gamers like me that enjoy both, are going to continue buying both.
i wouldn't be happy if it was just motion controlled gaming.
people like you are a large and solvent portion of the market. even if that market gets dwarfed by the motion control sector in dollars, people are going to keep pouring millions into the kind of games you want to play because there is undoubtedly an established market for that.
it's just the same as how the facebook games market's massive success isn't hurting traditional games. a growing new market is NEW money to be made. it's a new space for new investment.
any developer that moves into that new market and leaves the hardcore gaming market behind leaves a hole ready for a new developer to step into and turn a profit.
motion gaming may look like it poses a threat to core games, but it doesn't. just the same as the zynga/popcap stuff doesn't pose a threat to core games.
some people may like both, but most people will mainly play core games or mainly play motion control stuff and there will be minimal cannibalisation between the two.
you don't have to like Kinect, i don't expect everyone to be as pie in the sky optimistic as to what devs could do with something like this as i am...
but you don't need to fear it.
Mr_Zombie said:
definately. I still don't see who they are going to sell this on a mass scale outside of x-mas when it is a price of a console and the current linup is mediocre. I also doubt they are making a profit on each unit so they are kind of screwed.
let's see what $500 million can do