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Official Sonic Youtube Channel Encourages Fans To Keep Making Sonic Fan Games
- Thread starter Jimmyfenix
- Start date
They haven't done so with any Sonic fangame these past two decades. Heck, I'm staff for a site that has hosted pre-release builds of Sonic games and I can't recall there ever being trouble with Sega aside from maybe when there were a ton of Sonic 4 leaks.
EDIT: Not just that, they're so okay with fan projects that earlier this year they started letting people put rom hacks of Mega Drive games onto Steam Workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/app/34270/workshop/
It also works for Sega because they're essentially a 3rd party publisher that's been trying to make good in the PC space in recent years. Fangames do more to help them there with promoting Sonic, who can already be played almost anywhere, at this point. The fact that they're willing to go the extra distance to support romhacks on steam and lift up the likes of Taxman is just going the extra distance.
Nintendo can't afford the same thing because they are a 1st party publish/developer/console maker that still wants to maintain their exclusive environment, as much as possible. Likely as far as Ninty is concerned, if you can play a Mario fangame on PC, that's one less reason to buy Nintendo hardware. And until they see things differently, that aspect won't change.
LordRaptor
Member
A sandbox with no real completion goals or obstacles?
illusionary
Member
Fantastic gesture to see. Looks like I'm not best set for actually playing the game myself, sadly - it seems to be pushing my GTX-965M harder than I'd hoped - but having downloaded it this evening, I've still been able to get it to a playable state with a drop in graphics quality.
Candescence
Member
Yep. 2D Sonic has platformer engine that is still far more complex than any other platformer mechanically, and it enhances the gameplay in unique ways and suits Sonic as a character. There's a reason why Sonic Retro has a fucking guide for the intricate details of how exactly various aspects of 2D Sonic work.
Sonic fans are obsessed with the physics of Sonic for a reason, the use of momentum in combination with slopes is an intrinsic part of what made 2D Sonic great, and if you half-ass that, you're half-assing an integral part of the gameplay, which has obvious results.
Waddle Dee
Member
Sega has been doing an amazing job supporting fans and their creations. People making fun of Sonic fans are just jealous that Sega keeps giving their fans the thumbs up and sometimes even promote their creations. 
Praise
Praise
Heavier than Big the Cat. Deeper than the cheap pits in Dimps's shitty level design.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
This is a catastrophically bad idea.
Why?
lttp
I don't know if you're joking, but Sonic fan games have been a thing since '94 with no discernible repercussions. The scene really blew up in the Dreamcast days.
Theanine3D
Member
Sega's really ahead of their time. With this, and their embrace of romhacking, they've earned lots of respect from me.
Can live with both, but man Nintendo communicate it more
In before .... is so utterly utterly childish
In before .... is so utterly utterly childish
I don't see why it wouldn't have been fine. Many Sonic fangames use sprites or other assets from the main games *shrug*
Ah yes, I agree. Someone might make a great game with the franchise! That would've indeed been terrible.
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
Echidna Sacrifice! Dogs and Bigs the Cat living together! Mass Hysteria!
Solid SOAP
Member
No, it's very clear that it's essentially a proof of concept a fan made for fun. The idea here is that they created what looks like a fun engine to toy around in, and the final game would actually have stuff to do in it. I'd imagine it'd be like a combination of SSX and Banjo Kazooie if it was a real game.
Responses to fan-made games and engines always baffles me. People act like unless these fans design full games that their efforts are useless. This video was extremely impressive.
sechsterangriff
Member
If memory serves me right, even Streets of Rage Remake only got taken down after the dev started accepting donations through a paypal button on its website.
The one time I remember SEGA being complete dicks about fan made content in recent times, was when SEGA of Japan started DMCAing every Shinning Force video on youtube. I heard rumours of those in charge of Shining Resonance really hating western fans for preferring the old-school games.
The one time I remember SEGA being complete dicks about fan made content in recent times, was when SEGA of Japan started DMCAing every Shinning Force video on youtube. I heard rumours of those in charge of Shining Resonance really hating western fans for preferring the old-school games.
petran79
Banned
Brianimaniac
Banned
Can Sega even afford lawyers at this point? Trying to get credit for being broke.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
It'd be like if Matell said "You see these flash games. Yeah make more of these." And sure maybe some of those games are decent. I don't know I've only seen my little sister play them which is why I know these exists but would you actually want more? The correct answer is no.
You see copyright exists for a reason. Not only to stop greedy bastards to make money off of somebody else's property but to stop anybody no matter well intention they are from overloading the market with a deluge of crappy products from the same property. I mean just look at the shit coming out of the public domain. We got three crappy Snow White movies in and around the same time. We're getting two Jungle Book movies. And as much as I like Andy Serkis I doubt anyone wants to see another Jungle Book movie.
And here's the truth. There' tons of fan games everywhere based on almost every major video game franchise ever. I can just type "Mario fangame" into google and uncover a treasure trove of Mario fangames that Nintendo doesn't care to take down. That's mostly because most of them not only suck, but they pose next to no threat to Nintendo in terms of competing with the real thing, unlike something like AM2R which intentionally or not does compete with a product that could be bought on the eShop for money that goes toward Nintendo. Whether or not that was actually good PR is up to you. But Nintendo and their properties, unlike Sega and theirs, actually attract a comparatively broad enough audience in terms of sales and mindshare for them to not actually care.
Yeah Sega hiring the talented Christian Whitehead was a good PR move on their part but there's no denying that Sega needs good PR from hardcore Sonic fans as hardcore Sonic fans probably take up a bigger part of Sonic's audience than hardcore Nintendo fans. Plus hiring fan game makers and their engine for Sonic Mania was probably cheaper, quicker, and more well received than if they just got Sonic team to make Sonic 5 which would probably need a new engine, divert resources from bigger projects while trying to live up to to the Genesis trilogy. But new Mario games are well received no matter what and Mario's staff is still not only at Nintendo but are living legends there and still churn out quality content.
Honestly, I was just throwing shade at Sonic fandom originally. Sega embracing their hardcore fans is a good move for them but not a good move for everybody. Neither Sega nor Nintendo are really in the wrong when it comes to approaching fan content. Sega needs the goodwill of their die-hard fans, Nintendo and their much more valuable IPs really don't.
Both Nintendo and Sega could really learn a lot from their early 90s selves.
They took donations for the bandwidth of the forums, not for the actual project. Sega has always been extremely lenient when it comes to Sonic fangames and shits on everything else.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
SEGA actually has more money than most game companies, due to the Sammy part of SEGA-Sammy.
LordRaptor
Member
Its impressive and a fun sandbox, but it wouldn't translate into a Sonic game.
The reason Sonic games have things like autorun sequences is because they're fundamentally obstacle based linear challenges, and those sections are used to move the player along.
The parts of Sonic that are generally hated are the 'free form' open world aspects.
Theanine3D
Member
When the romhack workshop first went up on Steam, I said that Sega should formally invest in official level editors and romhacking tools for those games, specifically for this reason.
We're never getting a new turn-based single-player Phantasy Star again from Sega, but we could get a lot of new fanmade ones if easy-to-use tools were made available. I don't think any exist for that particular series beyond minor stuff (like editing monsters stats), nothing that lets you totally transform the game into a new one. In contrast, the classic Sonic games have a plethora of user-friendly tools available because of the sheer popularity of the IP. Those smaller lesser-known IP haven't been as lucky.
Solid SOAP
Member
That's because they're generally uninteresting to control and explore in, no? Sonic 06 is a prime example... the hubs themselves are simply boring, and Sonic sucks to control. They exist merely to get you from point A to B, and the few diversions are horrifically boring and the player is forced to sit through loading times that can take up to a minute long a piece.
If SEGA designed a game with the very purpose of exploring a huge environment with amazing momentum based controls ala the classics to back it up, that would be awesome and I think a very ambitious project to undertake. I think the Generations formula shouldn't be touched for now, but if SEGA pulled a Mania again and, say, hired someone who knew how to translate the 2D physics into 3D, I'd be into seeing where that goes.
I refuse to comment on Fan games, Nintendo & Sonic in the gaming section of this forum, but I have to respond to this. WHY is making Sonic fan games and encourging them a bad idea? It not only helps spread the brand of Sonic but it gives fans the pat on the back saying 'We respect you and appreciate you making great content with Sonic'.
How is that a 'catastrophically' bad idea? Its a great idea and I'm happy SEGA is very open to fan projects with the Sonic IP.
Nintendo has the legal right to do whatever they want but them being bullies to their fans and telling them 'Don't touch our IP's in ANY fashion' is just another way of saying 'We don't want you to be a fan of our products'. It's a bad message to send, considering they really want people to buy games with Mario's face on it.
Just happy SEGA is open to fan productions and even went as far as supporting Genesis mods on Steam & working Taxman/Stealth/Progodawest Games (Sonic 2 HD) for Sonic Mania.
They are hated because they have handled like complete shit so far, and have no design thought put into at all.
The problems of Sonic games have been pretty varied and sometimes specific to the game in question. Boiling the biggest ones down to "too open" betrays the nuance of the situation.
I don't think Sega needs a huge BotW-esque environment, but I don't see the point in sticking to more minimal linearity either, especially when more open platformers are disappearing and the ones that are left have gotten that type of linear, micromanaged experience locked down to the point of a concerning redundancy in the genre. Really, Sonic could position itself quite nicely as a unique experience in the current landscape that simultaneously homages the breadth of level design the classics and to an extent SA1 had by moving a little bit away from the boost direction.
Basically, keep the general goal of getting to point A to B, but allow players genuinely fun and fascinating ways of getting there. Create waypoints that are reached with multiple paths and plans of attack: traditional platforming, using a Homing Attack chain, using speed to launch off of a specific ramp, rails, bumpers, etc. Allow the player a little bit of room to run, play around with speed, and mess up. Befit this with a physics system that lends itself to the feeling of moving and traveling in arcs with meaningfully satisfying speed changes rather than sudden stops and starts.
The general gist of this I feel is present in the GHP demonstration. It's not perfect, but rather a good start. If Sonic Team could take that and apply it to more focused levels with context-driven design and obstacles like in SA1, that would be pretty sublime for me.
I don't think Sega needs a huge BotW-esque environment, but I don't see the point in sticking to more minimal linearity either, especially when more open platformers are disappearing and the ones that are left have gotten that type of linear, micromanaged experience locked down to the point of a concerning redundancy in the genre. Really, Sonic could position itself quite nicely as a unique experience in the current landscape that simultaneously homages the breadth of level design the classics and to an extent SA1 had by moving a little bit away from the boost direction.
Basically, keep the general goal of getting to point A to B, but allow players genuinely fun and fascinating ways of getting there. Create waypoints that are reached with multiple paths and plans of attack: traditional platforming, using a Homing Attack chain, using speed to launch off of a specific ramp, rails, bumpers, etc. Allow the player a little bit of room to run, play around with speed, and mess up. Befit this with a physics system that lends itself to the feeling of moving and traveling in arcs with meaningfully satisfying speed changes rather than sudden stops and starts.
The general gist of this I feel is present in the GHP demonstration. It's not perfect, but rather a good start. If Sonic Team could take that and apply it to more focused levels with context-driven design and obstacles like in SA1, that would be pretty sublime for me.
Lucky Seven
Banned
>Fans do what Sega won't
But... SEGA is making a Sonic game too. Or did we forget that for the sake of a low joke?
But... SEGA is making a Sonic game too. Or did we forget that for the sake of a low joke?
Hasn't turned out badly for Sega at all these past two decades. If anything they've been able to hire some great talent for the next Sonic game by allowing fangames to be made.
Also, them hiring fangame devs isn't just a PR move. It's the reason why Sonic Mania looks as good as it does.
Whilst in a perfect would something like this could be taken and made into a full kickass game... realistically it just isn't happening. There's a huge difference between creating a full game for Sonic to interact with, versus a sandbox that the character can A to B in under 10 seconds. The whole reason for Sonic's shitty friends (or werehog forms, etc) being so prominent in the 3D games is because even linear Sonic levels are a huge drain on resources due to the speed the character moves through environments. You wouldn't be able to get maneuvers like this into a full game without repurposing the same areas of the environment over and over to combat the need to create roughly 300 times the content shown here, for the game to even last as long as one of the Genesis originals..
What's the point in having all this speed, physics etc if you're going to relegate Sonic to trying to obtain 100 jigglies in each arena. This ain't Tony Hawk.
Copyright law is a double edged sword. While SEGA is garnering a tremendous amount of goodwill, if they ever had to take someone to court that went too far with a fan game concept let's say, SEGA would have very little to stand on. After all, they did nothing to protect the IP for 20 years in the eyes of the court.
Nintendo is trying to minimize something like that happening. They're losing a lot of goodwill, but that amount is negligible compared to the amount of money they can make from their regular customers buying their real games.
A lot of the issues with scale could be solved by just slowing the character down from consistently mach speeds and bringing back in areas and segments of platforming that require moving slowly, timing jumps, or in Casinopolis' case, requiring no platforming or speed at all. There's no reason we have to continue the Boost formula.
Professor Beef
Banned
Dude was asking for donations, that's a different beast entirely.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
As I said earlier, I was just throwing shade at Sonic fans. Don't take it the wrong way. You guys are admittedly an easy target and any Sonic fan will be the first to admit that. Do know that fan games, fan fiction and even fan art violate copywrite. And it's been the law in the U.S. since the country's founding. I wouldn't be mad at Nintendo because of that. If you got a DMCA notice for making something that you can't legally work with, then you should've known about that risk from the start. With the internet though and its ability to publish anything easily it's muddied up people's reception of copywrite because there's such an influx of copywrite infringing works it's impossible to take them all down, and made things that couldn't ever be predicted with those laws legal grey areas. That's on us and the lawmakers though to figure that out, not Nintendo for knowing what their legal boundaries are right now.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Agni would be awesome and I certainly wouldn't complain, but I'd rather have something totally brand new.
You appear to be lost.
RomanceDawn
Member
Seriously! This is what I want Sonic to become! Let him roll into a true ball, throw in Tails and Knuckles and I could see this being the evolution of Sonic the world has been waiting for!
I thought all this commotion was for another 2D game, I had no idea someone was making what i was dreaming of for so long!
Candescence
Member
There's no real legal precedent, though. The obvious 'contract' between Sega and the fans is "as long as you don't try to make money off of this, it's cool." Besides, you can apply this argument to every other company that doesn't actively crack down on fan works all the time, which is, well, every company making some kind of popular entertainment, and I don't think that would hold up in court.
The fact that we're debating this at all is result of an outdated system of copyright that was never intended to take into account modern forms of communication or really accommodate anyone other than corporations.
If it wasn't for sonic fan games, we wouldn't have Freedom Planet. Thank you Sega.
Nintendo knows what's best for their fans. There must be a good reason why they take down all these awesome fan games. They care!
No. This is not a thing that can happen.
Outtrigger888
Member
Sega and sonic are a shell of a product, Nintendo is still a big business that gives a shit about there IPs. The sonic IP is worth pennies compared to something like Mario.
katsubento
Member
And first post wins again.