Neuromancer
Member
You can't show good (or bad) level design with a screenshot.Sorry, but your totally delusional if you think
looks better than
Quake's level design was good for 1996. Unreal set the new standard in 1998.
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CliffyB talks about new game design philosophy, wants less linear/scripted games
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
CoconutTank
Member
He is talking about his own past games. What's stupid? Did you play the MP? It's pretty good. The versus mode, horde mode are top notch, the campaign is pretty fun when played with 4 people on high difficulty(next to 2 specific encounters). It's one of the better games out there.
Are you talking strictly about aesthetics? Cause that isn't what we're talking about, and it isn't really what most people talk about when they say "level design." It's about the paths around the level you can traverse through, the placement of enemies, weapons, ammo, items, etc, and the proper balancing of all of those things. In multiplayer maps it becomes even more crucial, and that's where Quake's level design shined even brighter.
A lot of people turn the graphics down in Quake games so as to make other players stand out more. It's not really that relevant. I mean you have a Deus Ex avatar so you should know what good level design is, presumably.
More emergent gameplay and non-linear games? YES, sign me up!
Really looking forward to seeing what comes of this, even if I am somewhat surprised at who is saying it. Good on him.
emergent gameplay is cool but it's not particularly related to non-linearness or open-worldedness.
This is the same CliffyB who works at Epic Games right? I might be willing to hear this speech from Lord British or Sid Meier but not Cliff. GoW is one of the fathers of the kind of stale game design he is now criticizing.
Make a game demonstrating your new design philosophy, and make it the GoW of next-gen so that when we receive a flood of clones, they will have a great example to steal from.
Make a game demonstrating your new design philosophy, and make it the GoW of next-gen so that when we receive a flood of clones, they will have a great example to steal from.
It tends to feature more in non linear games than linear. The looser the reigns, so to speak, the more opportunity for emergent gameplay. It's not a hard and fast rule and there are exceptions. But by and large, the more locked down a game is, the less chances for emergent gameplay. Compare EQ to WoW for example, or Just Cause 2 to Uncharted 2. There's lots of others.
specialguy
Banned
Gears is actually hardly the worst offender in this dept (COD, Killzone, are two that come to mind as worse), and it does have some open areas and gameplay, but come on, it is somewhat like that...and the Gears story totally exemplifies the second sentence.
Neuromancer
Member
Between him and Jaffe it's like certain developers are only now waking up.
Well it just remains to be seen what Epic is cooking up next. If they just go back to the Gears well and it's the same old stuff, yeah. But maybe they're going in another direction. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
These comments show he at least recognizes the issue, though whether he'll do something about it is a different matter.
I feel this, the whole lead by example is good, plus I like Cliff and hope we can get some more diversity in his games instead of something with a gun.
I did. You expected a different reaction from me?
Edit: I could've sworn you worded that a little different lol.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
He is mentioning his regret. He's not acting like his shit don't stink.
SafeinSound
Member
I don't think it forces you to play stealthy, but it certainly suggests that you don't just walk into a room and start unloading on the whole place.
TUROK
Member
What I find funny about the Doom comparison is that Doom is linear as well. You can't just tackle the objectives the way you want, you have to follow a certain path to get one key first, then follow another path to get the second key, and then follow another certain path to get the third key. It's linear, just a different kind of linear.
I like heavily scripted games, I like games that aren't linear at all. There's room for both.
I like heavily scripted games, I like games that aren't linear at all. There's room for both.
It's not bullshit. He wanted to make scripted games, and now he wants to make less linear ones. This isn't supposed to be some grand epiphany, but a hint of things to come from Epic.
That doesn't mean the level of irony absolutely cannot and should not be acknowledged. Cliff is in a precarious position when he makes remarks like these, especially when his company currently develops the industries leading middleware.
If he wants game design to change, then he can most help it to change by designing UE4 to make it much easier for developers to develop those kind of games. He can further help, by carrying the torch with their own game, that demonstrates all of the ways in which he feels that games need to evolve.
In other words, his "poop stinks" so bad, that intentions are nice but serious action is what is needed. He is in a great position to do something truly worthwhile about it. Let us hope he does.
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
The painfully forced Dom death, the bad jokes, the endless linear shooting punctuated only by awkward dialogue...
For a guy who's talking about making games which are less linear and scripted, he sure didn't do that in the GoW3 campaign.
I use to be one of Epics biggest fans in the days of OMF2097, Jazz Jackrabbit, Unreal and Epic Pinball. Seeing them stuck making sequels to Gears with a downloadable game here and there was very disappointing for me. I hope they turn over a new leaf.
It's funny, because lately I never felt like I was being 'poked with a stick' more than in gears 3. Whenever I'd stop to explore or check out the cool environments they spent years creating, some NPC would start yelling at me to HURRY UP WE CAN'T STAND AROUND HERE WHAT ARE YOU DOING???
flintstryker
Banned
This topic is classic this
vs this
no its not
I think when people are criticizing linear games these days, they're criticizing today's linear games.
Shooters like Call of Duty and Gears feel a lot more linear than even most shooters from last gen and before. Again, Halo is a very particular example. I think the word we're trying to criticize here might be "cinematic" - everything's filled with automated set pieces that the developer absolutely wants you to see. Linear games used to just present players with set levels and simply let them play within that framework.
Half-Life is also filled with set pieces, but they feel more like actual level design because Valve doesn't have to actually restrict controller input to get the player to do what they want. That's what I'm tired of: games filled with sections were you're kinda still in control but have to walk slow or can only press one button because they want you to "feel" this moment.
Shooters like Call of Duty and Gears feel a lot more linear than even most shooters from last gen and before. Again, Halo is a very particular example. I think the word we're trying to criticize here might be "cinematic" - everything's filled with automated set pieces that the developer absolutely wants you to see. Linear games used to just present players with set levels and simply let them play within that framework.
Half-Life is also filled with set pieces, but they feel more like actual level design because Valve doesn't have to actually restrict controller input to get the player to do what they want. That's what I'm tired of: games filled with sections were you're kinda still in control but have to walk slow or can only press one button because they want you to "feel" this moment.
The difference isn't specifically what CliffyB was talking about. But some people posting think that he's simply talking about linear game design vs. non linear game design.
Someone made the comment that they felt that all games should be open world. I was trying to show how some games are best experienced in linear fashion while other games would benefit more from an open world. Both methods have the potential to be considered great classic games, even within the same genre.
I tend to think that the degree of variety and freedom that a game has on a micro level is far more important than macro non linearity, although the two aren't mutually exclusive. As people have already mentioned in this thread Halo is ostensibly linear but what you do within those levels has a lot of room for variation. Same with games like RE4, and the 2D Marios (actually comparing classic Mario and Sonic games perfectly illustrates the differences between macro and micro freedom).
The problem with unfettered freedom in open world sandboxes and the like is that it completely fucks with the pacing. I find the GTAs and WRPGS a complete grind after a while, even if they sound amazing on paper. Compromises like Zelda and classic JRPGS, or games that do open worlds on a smaller scale like Deus Ex are the most I can handle.
The problem with unfettered freedom in open world sandboxes and the like is that it completely fucks with the pacing. I find the GTAs and WRPGS a complete grind after a while, even if they sound amazing on paper. Compromises like Zelda and classic JRPGS, or games that do open worlds on a smaller scale like Deus Ex are the most I can handle.
Honestly I think non open world games but not completely linear are less repetitive, have better exploration (in that you see more new things that are better designed but you see overall less things) and so on than mostly open world games. They are also shorter with more fun per time with less filler.
Take Arkham Asylum vs Arkham City.
Skyrim vs a lot of games that are far less repetitive in content in comparison to something like Witcher 2 which is not open world. Also better but less quests, better designed world in my view, and so on. Deus Ex is also an RPG that I think was better than Skyrim also due to not being as open world.
Risen is an open world game that worked rather well but it is quite different than the likes of Skyrim in that some areas open up at some point the game for it to become open world, you find dangerous high level creatures that don't scale with the level of the player, good combat, less fillerish content, and so on.
I also rather like games like Crysis which are somewhat linear but also allow you options.
In conclusion: More open than the likes of COD= good. Very open world= probably not so good. At least for my tastes.
Take Arkham Asylum vs Arkham City.
Skyrim vs a lot of games that are far less repetitive in content in comparison to something like Witcher 2 which is not open world. Also better but less quests, better designed world in my view, and so on. Deus Ex is also an RPG that I think was better than Skyrim also due to not being as open world.
Risen is an open world game that worked rather well but it is quite different than the likes of Skyrim in that some areas open up at some point the game for it to become open world, you find dangerous high level creatures that don't scale with the level of the player, good combat, less fillerish content, and so on.
I also rather like games like Crysis which are somewhat linear but also allow you options.
In conclusion: More open than the likes of COD= good. Very open world= probably not so good. At least for my tastes.
He cockblocked one of gaf's member.
faceless007
Member
It's like some of you don't realize game designers are people too whose interests and things they'd like to explore can actually change over time.
You can have a fully open world with little filler that also has good quest design along with strong characters and other story elements - Fallout: New Vegas is a perfect modern example of that. It just requires good writing, which has never really been Bethesda's strong suit.
So do I. It makes me sad the hatred some people spew for linear games and the people who play them when some of the greatest games I've ever played were extremely linear. On the flipside, my favourite genres are open world sandbox and WRPGs but sometimes I just want to play an action movie in game form.
Net_Wrecker
Member
People really need to get off the linear vs. open world thing. That's not the issue at ALL.
Well yeah, he's saying this after the release of Gears 3.