Linearity has nothing to do with games being boring. Don't you think this kind of reductionism is lazy?
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CliffyB talks about new game design philosophy, wants less linear/scripted games
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Linearity has nothing to do with games being boring. Don't you think this kind of reductionism is lazy?
no. They might not be saving any money but linear games provide perfectly valid experiences that are different than open-world sandbox games.
Lazy reductionism on GAF? SHOCKING NEWS.
Risk Breaker
Member
He should tell Epic first, the press later 
That's not enough for me to play through a 8-10 hour linear game again. I don't like coming up with artificial ways to fix a developer's mistakes. It's different when I'm given different tools to create my own stuff like what I said about far cry 2, but I'm not the kind of guy who plays with fake challenges like melee only just to try to make a boring game more fun.
CoconutTank said:
Maybe, but again I don't think it's worth sitting through a 2 hour movie again in hopes that I'll notice something small that I didn't before. I've tried to sit through movies I've seen already but I always squirm around and end up going on my PC or falling asleep.
Sentenza
Member
Whatever.
I can eventually enjoy some linear game (I loved Portal 2 after all), but still I'm probably never going to list some scriptfest in a top ten of my favorite games.
Of course, on the other hand being open doesn't make a game automatically good, and in fact I can't stand Bethesda games.
Rollo Lawson
Banned
I'm sure he and will wright aren't the only ones in the big industry who feel that way. i imagine theres still that corporate cash-in factor that prevents too many active changes in design philosophy
wait you read the OP?
yeah, whatever. Fundamentally different tastes bro. They're good experiences, just because you can't/won't appreciate them doesn't make them bad.
Hard to determine what he is saying exactly. He is either saying "Maybe we should go back to some of the design philosophy we used when we were on the PC!" Or he is saying "We love Skyrim so much, we want to fuck it and every game needs to be like that!"
I have a bad feeling that he wants to fuck Skyrim given how in love the industry is with it...
I have a bad feeling that he wants to fuck Skyrim given how in love the industry is with it...
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Portal is a great example of a linear as fuck game. Same puzzles, same dialogue, same solution. I can run run through it in 45 mins with my eyes closed.
And I have. Probably about 50 times. Loved every single playthrough.
<3
And I have. Probably about 50 times. Loved every single playthrough.
<3
Visualante2
Member
Great read, this is what I would expect from Edge- not a gaming website. I like the the piece was warts and all. His publicist is a fucking dick and Rein was a bit snarky with the UE4 thing. He should give this outlet a bit more credit.
Cliffyb seeing the light on gameplay is awesome. I'm excited for the next game. I respect Epic's hiring philosophy too, while I think it's a bit extreme to expect staff to want to work there for 20 years (some agencies claim companies prefer you to move company every several years) I think the corporate culture and working conditions for staff is shameful across the game industry. People should market free range games. Happy staff = better game
Cliffyb seeing the light on gameplay is awesome. I'm excited for the next game. I respect Epic's hiring philosophy too, while I think it's a bit extreme to expect staff to want to work there for 20 years (some agencies claim companies prefer you to move company every several years) I think the corporate culture and working conditions for staff is shameful across the game industry. People should market free range games. Happy staff = better game
CoconutTank
Member
Hmm, okay. Well I also agree that I would not tolerate a game that I think has bad game design. I don't know if self imposed challenges like the earlier ascribed are necessarily bad or devoid of complexity. You might have to think about how many clips you have left versus how many attacks it takes to take out certain targets, what the best distances and angles would be for you to engage enemies, what fallback options you have in case something goes wrong. I mean, I guess far cry 2 probably has those elements to consider too, but I would think there's still enough meaningful decision making in the previously given cases (though I guess maybe not enough).
Uno Venova
Banned
I find myself preferring the linear more focused games these days,
All I was trying to say is it is absolutely rampant, people throw out false dichotomies and oversimplifications like candy on Halloween around here. I wasn't trying to mock, merely agree and in some way state that I feel that the issue runs almost to the core of discussion on this board perhaps even the entire interwebs.
There are many ways of preventing people from getting lost. If people are still getting lost then they lack the ability to be spatial aware of their surroundings. I do know people that can't play games worth a damn due to this. But dev's shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator.
Riposte
Member
There is nothing wrong with either, to be frank.
Nonlinear tends to be mean more filler. Only a few games pull it off well (not to say most nonlinear games suck, they are simply watered down). There are too many single-player MMORPGs which give you a straight line to follow for your individual quests.
vagabondarts
Member
maybe more game designers will take this to heart also. Looking forward to seeing the fruit of his new outlook.
Kid Icarus: Uprising is a good example of this in a way. Even though the layout of the levels is rigid (allowing only one path for the most part) The flexibility of the game allows for wildly unique experiences.
Kid Icarus: Uprising is a good example of this in a way. Even though the layout of the levels is rigid (allowing only one path for the most part) The flexibility of the game allows for wildly unique experiences.
One shitty future, same as the first?
We'll see.
When the new consoles hits, what are the odds of this happening, rather than everyone back en masse on the now-more-spectacular-than-ever corridor movie?
Also I say these things about "forcing the player" since 8 years ago. Do I win something?
Give it the sequels visual flair and easy to use level editor with the original's gameplay.
Id be there day one
Also very interested to see where this leads for Cliffy's next game
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
What's old is new again.
Risk Breaker
Member
Absolutely. But that's the difference between linear flow through the game and linear, scripted and prebaked sequences all over the game affecting gameplay.
Really, the last Ace Combat is one of the worst offenders I've had the displeasure to "play".
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Level design and perspective of JJ1 + upgraded graphics of JJ2 = day 1
no, it was cool 8 years ago.
Linear level design has its advantages. Egoraptor's Castlevania video serves as a great illustration. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
THIS.
I dislike the linear, scripted as hell type of game design that is so popular these days. Tiny pathways where you can't explore anything, usually following someone with an icon over his head so you cannot get lost. And tons of scripted "cinematic" moments along the way.
It's like a roller coaster ride, it might be exciting the first time but there is absolutely no replay value because it's literally the exact same thing every time.
It's like a roller coaster ride, it might be exciting the first time but there is absolutely no replay value because it's literally the exact same thing every time.
Than why is Metroidvania better than Actionvania?
Well, let's hope he makes good on his new consideration of systems in games. Really, the best games are about exactly what he's talking about, having lots of systems, all of which are trying to interact overtly in their given world to bring about the results that system wants. This is what made old RPGs like Planescape so great. LOTS of systems, some of which didn't play with each other very nicely, others that did. Good games just need them because you can't have complexity without them.
This isn't to say that simple run n' guns don't have their place, certainly Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 3 have proved this, but they are, well, pretty simple. Just keep shooting the other dude until they don't move. Do this a lot. Works for a while, but does get tiring for most people. I'm kinda hoping that burnout for all these FPS games is finally setting in and we'll see something different in the genre. Maybe more Metroid Prime stuff? Oh dear god please more Metroid Prime stuff.
This isn't to say that simple run n' guns don't have their place, certainly Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 3 have proved this, but they are, well, pretty simple. Just keep shooting the other dude until they don't move. Do this a lot. Works for a while, but does get tiring for most people. I'm kinda hoping that burnout for all these FPS games is finally setting in and we'll see something different in the genre. Maybe more Metroid Prime stuff? Oh dear god please more Metroid Prime stuff.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
Why do you play games? Some of gaming's grandfather titles were all about tackling and memorizing the same levels over and over and over again to get a high score. Even the much revered shmups deal with this repetitive nature.
Get out of here with that "every game needs a leveling up system with the option to skip battles entirely just because I can" mentality.
dragonelite
Member
Yes do it cliffy go back to real games and not the cinematic scripted ones.
Seraphinianus
Banned
the new old game design
CornBurrito
Member
I'm a fan of both types of designs.
Linear games can deliver a pretty solid experience, and I don't think every game would benefit from an open world.
Open world games can also be amazing when done right. Risen was one of the few open world games that swayed my opinion. Exploration was so rewarding in that game.
Have you never watched reruns of TV episodes? Or listened to a song more than once? Or watched a movie a second time?
Something being the exact same the second time around doesn't make it have no replay value.
I've watched movies multiple times, just as I've played through the Phoenix Wright series at least 2.
Linear games can deliver a pretty solid experience, and I don't think every game would benefit from an open world.
Open world games can also be amazing when done right. Risen was one of the few open world games that swayed my opinion. Exploration was so rewarding in that game.
Have you never watched reruns of TV episodes? Or listened to a song more than once? Or watched a movie a second time?
Something being the exact same the second time around doesn't make it have no replay value.
I've watched movies multiple times, just as I've played through the Phoenix Wright series at least 2.
I agree with his perspective and wish more people in his type of position of influence would have the same or similar philosophy in game design.
Maybe he could bring back Unreal Tournament to help express his idea for level design
I still dream off the day when the campaign in an Unreal Tournament game works like a wrestling game, with a branching plot based on your [teams] wins and losses. Though, I don't think that's quite what he means, or that that will ever happen.
Neuromancer
Member
This setup would even work for a modern military shooter. Fail a mission, there's a branch. Succeed, there's a branch. Fail the primary mission but succeed at a secondary objective, there's a branch.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I think a lot of people are, and will be, taking this the wrong way. It's not about linear vs. open world, it's about getting away from being dependent on "scripted hallway roller coaster" scenarios, and hand-holding players to force them to get something out of the game that wouldn't have been there through normal gameplay. There are times and places for that kind of gameplay design, but when the entire game is made with that in mind, it takes away a lot from the experience, especially on 2nd + playthroughs. Games should be becoming WIDER and more ORGANIC in terms of gameplay. Not necessarily a bigger play space, just a more free flowing one.
It IS possible to make shooters that have more than 1 direction to walk in, and where progression can happen in ways other than a scripted explosion, followed by a scripted crawling section, followed by a scripted fight scene where you press the "AWESOME" button to watch stuff happen, followed by getting your gun back to repeat the cycle.
It IS possible to make shooters that have more than 1 direction to walk in, and where progression can happen in ways other than a scripted explosion, followed by a scripted crawling section, followed by a scripted fight scene where you press the "AWESOME" button to watch stuff happen, followed by getting your gun back to repeat the cycle.
I've never liked shmups or high score games. Back then I played games and moved on, and it's probably the reason why I liked jrpgs so much on the SNES. There was more depth there than chasing high scores or jumping on things' heads.
MoonsaultSlayer said:
I don't recall saying anything like that, no idea what you're talking about.
My post was not meant to make any comparisons, actually.
I'm up for more options.
It isn't linear that is bad per say, nor non-linear really.
It's bland, predictable gameplay thats the problem.
How many times have to you wandered off into a side area, searched each object, spamming interact and found nothing? Or maybe you found a 15 second video/audio/text log that had little to do with the main plot, and had no discernible effect on the players experience.
Adventure games really spoiled with with how much detail/intractable objects can be a in room. Yet in these multi-million dollar AAA franchises I walk in a room see a desk, a chair, and maybe a poorly textured non-interactable book and nothing else. What a waste of time for both the player and the developer.
It isn't linear that is bad per say, nor non-linear really.
It's bland, predictable gameplay thats the problem.
How many times have to you wandered off into a side area, searched each object, spamming interact and found nothing? Or maybe you found a 15 second video/audio/text log that had little to do with the main plot, and had no discernible effect on the players experience.
Adventure games really spoiled with with how much detail/intractable objects can be a in room. Yet in these multi-million dollar AAA franchises I walk in a room see a desk, a chair, and maybe a poorly textured non-interactable book and nothing else. What a waste of time for both the player and the developer.
Coming out of the ship (scared as hell a Skarjj was waiting) and seeing that waterfall...
I too am waiting for a proper sequel.