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CliffyB talks about new game design philosophy, wants less linear/scripted games

Sentenza

Member
I feel Deux Ex forced you to play stealty, any other way leads to your death.
If you're talking about Human Revolution, that's false, but it holds some vague truth: any other approach beside "stealth killer" didn't lead to your death, but it was rewarded with far less amounts of exp.
Which is questionable design.

Still, a great game.

EDIT- in topic: "Yay!" for game designers realizing that some degree of freedom is almost essential to make a memorable game.
 

Bebpo

Banned
Yeah, but hasn't the linear trend been a reaction to people complaining about getting lost in levels?

(Not saying that good design - like Valve's for instance - can't overcome that.)

Well then they need to stop making games for the lowest common denominator of idiots.

You get lost? So what. That's what strategy guides are for. Extra sales opportunity there.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
I really hope more developers realize what Cliff is talking about. I enjoy the random linear games like Gears and UC, but the more open games are far more fun and involving.



The hallway where the lights gradually turn off will forever be burned in my mind. =)

IIRC Cliff himself designed that part too =p

I just love the first level, you have a tight corridor'y ship with lots of dead people and screaming (God did that freak me out as a kid) and then bam, you exit the ship to find yourself on a beautiful alien world. Pretty amazing use of contrast there.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Disagree. I must've played Gears 1 and 2 at least half a dozen times each. More, probably. Ditto for the Uncharted games, CoD 4 + MW2, etc etc.

It's never as exciting as the first time, but I can appreciate a linear experience just as many times as any other game.

I mean, I've played Resi 4 maybe 15 times, and that's linear as fuck.

Man, I love linear games. Open world games are amazing when done right, but so few get it right. So, so few.

But why are you playing them 6-12 times? Is it the gunplay? You know exactly what will happen when and how it will happen every time. It's boring.
 

Blackface

Banned
Thank you Cliffy. I have been wanting more games like this for over half a decade.

Now all we need to do, is get MMO developers to realize sandbox MMO's are the future. That nobody wants more WoW clones. We will be on the right track.
 

SykoTech

Member
As great as amazing open world games are, amazing linear games are just as good.

I want there to be a lot of tight, guided linear games and amazing, open games.

There's room for both and different games suit different game designs.

Agreed. Both formulas can lead to great games and all games trying to be the same is the last thing the industry needs.
 
Linear games I can play over and over. Open games are finished as soon as they're complete. Who wants to do the tutorial levels again? Who wants to lose all the powers you gained.

You can still make a linear game with open areas.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Linear games I can play over and over. Open games are finished as soon as they're complete. Who wants to do the tutorial levels again? Who wants to lose all the powers you gained.

You can still make a linear game with open areas.

Linear with open levels is pretty much my sweetspot when it comes to FPS titles (Unless we're talking STALKER). Which is why I love Crysis/Warhead to death, open ended gameplay along a guided path.
 

theBishop

Banned
Doom as is doesn't work anymore But the spiritual successors to that design, namely the Metroid Prime series, show how with enough options for gameplay, compelling encounters, and rewards for knowing an area well, there is definitely a place for non-linear design in an adventure/shooter.

It's a shame the genre didn't really follow up on those games. Hopefully we'll start seeing that.

One thing Metroid (and Zelda) has always gotten right, is it's usually a mechanic/ability which will allow you to reach the next area. So you're not wondering around looking for a meaningless key (although there's some of that), mostly you're looking for a new ability that's going to make the game more fun. I'm all for it.
 

KageMaru

Member
<Cliffy> "I think our game design has developed some problems and I'd like to fix them"

<Globox_82 / EmSeta> "YOUR GAME DESIGN HAS THOSE PROBLEMS!!!!"

...

lol nice.

I just love the first level, you have a tight corridor'y ship with lots of dead people and screaming (God did that freak me out as a kid) and then bam, you exit the ship to find yourself on a beautiful alien world. Pretty amazing use of contrast there.

Yup, I remember all of that all too well as well. Halo 1 was the same way, narrow internal ship first level just to follow up with a bigger and more open second level. The music in that game still gives me goose bumps.

Man now I want to play Unreal again =/

Edit:


Linear games I can play over and over. Open games are finished as soon as they're complete. Who wants to do the tutorial levels again? Who wants to lose all the powers you gained.

You can still make a linear game with open areas.

There's a more middle ground design which is linear in structure but the play areas are much more open. This is why I prefer games like Crysis and Halo to games like CoD.

You can play a Halo mission twice in a row and no two fire fights will be the same because of the sandbox design mixed with the great AI.
 

SpokkX

Member
Nicely put, hopefully his net game implements the changes in design.

I am one of those that hate scripted stuff and gears really is just corridors to the next event like most AAA titles today.

Not what I hoped gaming would evolve to in the 90-ies
 

Globox_82

Banned
Man, I love linear games. Open world games are amazing when done right, but so few get it right. So, so few.

So true, so true. We agree on a lot of things. For example RDR was my GOTY, while Skyrim bore me to death. OMG that game sucked ass. Dead Island is more fun. Combat in Skyrim is a joke.
 
But why are you playing them 6-12 times? Is it the gunplay? You know exactly what will happen when and how it will happen every time. It's boring.
It's fun? You can say that about any game. Just because it's expansive doesn't mean it's god's gift to gaming when it comes to gameplay variety. Come on, man.
 
But why are you playing them 6-12 times? Is it the gunplay? You know exactly what will happen when and how it will happen every time. It's boring.

I like the gameplay, I like the stories, I like the scenarios, I find the dialogue interesting, I want to re-live the moments, etc etc.

I just don't think you'll understand. You said it's like a movie you can only watch once - a great movie I can watch dozens of times.

Different strokes, I guess.

I'll always rate linear and open experiences equally. There is no superior design, it just depends on the game.
 
A game doesn't have to be open world to not feel super linear. Halo has mostly linear level design, but they create a sandbox that you can play in which always creates new moments.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Good for 1 playthrough at least. I'm at the point where it's tough to justify buying linear rollercoaster games at full price because like movies they're only good for 1 go.

We should be moving towards a more open world/unscripted future to evolve the gameplay. Story and character development doesn't necessarily have to suffer either.

I disagree. There's nothing inherently wrong with focused linear design. There are plenty of linear games that meet the youtube criteria he described.

Problem lies in the lack of mechanical depth in alot of them. Or that they artificially limit the options of the player to force them to play the way they want.(Here's an enemy that can only be hurt with rocket launchers. Here's a rocket launcher)

So pretty much there's no value in a replay because there's no room to play any differently. There's no room for any strategies besides the ones they allow you to use. and there's nothing new to learn that wasn't introduced to you in the tutorial from the first playthrough
 
It's fun doing the same thing in the same exact way over and over again?

We'll have to disagree there.
What? I can take different approaches, use different weapons, see how far I can get by with stealth/melee, fuck with the ai...

Are you telling me that your open world games don't have these scripted encounters? LOLOLOL!
 
It's fun doing the same thing in the same exact way over and over again?

We'll have to disagree there.

You don't do the same things exactly over and over. Certain sections, yes, but all of the games I mentioned can play out different in gunfights, on different difficulties, etc etc.

Just because the setpieces are the same doesn't mean you're going to have an exact replica of the first 8 hour experience you had.

Edit: MoonlightSlayer gets it.
 

bengraven

Member
Testify!

This is the image he's mentioning by the way:

BITmX.jpg

Holy shit.

A major designer actually took this to heart.
 

Blackface

Banned
You don't do the same things exactly over and over. Certain sections, yes, but all of the games I mentioned can play out different in gunfights, on different difficulties, etc etc.

Just because the setpieces are the same doesn't mean you're going to have an exact replica of the first 8 hour experience you had.

Edit: MoonlightSlayer gets it.

I will agree with this. It's why I played Halo: CE so much. The AI was so amazing, that although the set piece was the same, what happened in side of it was different every time. It made the game, to this day, my favorite shooter of all time.

Every time I played it, the events of a level unfolded differently. It was fantastic.

However. After having played sandbox games before. Games where it's not linear set design. A sanbox game WITH that style of AI, would be a dream come true.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
It's fun doing the same thing in the same exact way over and over again?

We'll have to disagree there.

Question, do you only watch films once and then shelve them for good? Because linear games are sort of the same thing in that the same events happen exactly as scripted.

Not attacking your stance on linear games just found it amusing :p
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
There's room for both.

Make me a new 2D Jazz Jackrabbit for XBLA/PSN/Steam/iOS/Android, Cliffy, and all will be forgiven. But make it like the original JJ, not the sequel.
 

Derrick01

Banned
What? I can take different approaches, use different weapons, see how far I can get by with stealth/melee, fuck with the ai...

Are you telling me that your open world games don't have these scripted encounters? LOLOLOL!

Different approaches in what? In a game like Gears there's really only 1 way to go, and no I don't consider "do I shoot him with my pistol or assault rifle" enough of a tactical difference. Not like in something like Far Cry 2 where I could use fire and wind to create a diversion at an enemy outpost which lets me move in from behind. Or lay out mines along a road to stop a convoy while I picked them off on top of a nearby boulder.

Easy_D said:
Question, do you only watch films once and then shelve them for good? Because linear games are sort of the same thing in that the same events happen exactly as scripted.

Yes. I don't buy movies and I don't go see them twice or more in a theater. If one comes on FX or something I'll have it on in the background while I play on PC, as background noise basically. But I see no value in watching something I already experienced.
 

nel e nel

Member
Different approaches in what? In a game like Gears there's really only 1 way to go, and no I don't consider "do I shoot him with my pistol or assault rifle" enough of a tactical difference. Not like in something like Far Cry 2 where I could use fire and wind to create a diversion at an enemy outpost which lets me move in from behind. Or lay out mines along a road to stop a convoy while I picked them off on top of a nearby boulder.

There are a lot of arena-like battles in Gears that offer varying ways to approach the enemy using flanking, sniping, etc.
 
Yes. I don't buy movies and I don't go see them twice or more in a theater. If one comes on FX or something I'll have it on in the background while I play on PC, as background noise basically. But I see no value in watching something I already experienced.

Have you only had sex once? In out, in out, same every time!
 
I recall a discussion on DoomWorld's forums going into this topic, actually. Somebody raised a pretty good point about how linearity sort of works on two levels - a macro scale (the game as a whole) and a micro scale (individual parts of the game in question).

Something like Doom is linear on a macro scale (you will always go through the same order of levels, with the optional secret stages always placed in the same spots) while less linear on a micro scale (obviously most maps are designed with a specific order of completion in mind - ie, find red key, open red door, find blue key, etc. - but the areas behind each door in the better-designed maps have a decent amount of space to explore, with not all of it directly leading toward the exit, but other bonuses and goodies). Likewise, the first Deus Ex fits into that pretty well (it's always Liberty Island -> Battery Park -> Hell's Kitchen -> LaGuardia Airport etc., but how you progress through that linear selection of levels is very open-ended).

On the other hand, they cited something like an Elder Scrolls game as open in a macro sense (I mean, it's an open-world game, kind of goes with the territory), and more linear in a micro sense (a lot of the various quests have a fairly strict linear progression - I'm not so sure I agree with this, since although my experience with Elder Scrolls games has been rather limited, I'm pretty sure there's some room for differing approaches to them).

Something like that exaggerated "modern game" would be linear on both counts (the game would progress the same no matter how you play it). Not entirely sure what open on both counts would be - Minecraft or something?
 

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
I loved scripted games at the beginning of this gen but lately I can't bring myself to play them. I mean I would drool over new Aliens Colonial Marines video a few years ago but it evoked no excitement in me at all when I watched it a few days ago. "oh, another QTE event. Oh, he raises his hand when I don't want him to".
 
Different approaches in what? In a game like Gears there's really only 1 way to go, and no I don't consider "do I shoot him with my pistol or assault rifle" enough of a tactical difference. Not like in something like Far Cry 2 where I could use fire and wind to create a diversion at an enemy outpost which lets me move in from behind. Or lay out mines along a road to stop a convoy while I picked them off on top of a nearby boulder.
What about pistol or mortar? What about going melee only? Ways to challenge yourself, or to try and achieve a personally set goal with different means, I would think those all go on the same spectrum.

Yes. I don't buy movies and I don't go see them twice or more in a theater. If one comes on FX or something I'll have it on in the background while I play on PC, as background noise basically. But I see no value in watching something I already experienced.
Are you sure you wouldn't have a different experience upon the next viewing? Maybe something changed inbetween the last time you watched a movie and now, maybe something you missed last time will catch your attention this time =\

I'm not going to ask you to waste your time to find out if that's true and have you rewatch movies you have no interest in, just saying that things change and there can be many different perspectives or approaches.
 
if we go this way then playing a linear game over and over again would be like having sex in the same position/way every time.

Not really. You can do loads of different approaches in a game like Resi 4 or Uncharted in the combat scenarios. That's like doing it doggy or with her on top!
 
I feel Deux Ex forced you to play stealty, any other way leads to your death.

This isn't true. I shot everyone in sight and finished the game fine.

I agree that it constrains you for achievements in forcing you to play a certain way, but the game was beatable either way.

Perhaps for the next one, they can have classes.
 
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