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Assassin's Creed: Origin's Depiction of Cleopatra

The pictures presented in the OP mostly convince me that we don't have any real idea what Cleopatra looked like, because they don't really look similar to each other.

As for clothing, Cleopatra seems to have identified herself more with Egypt than her predecessors, learning Egyptian and identifying herself with Isis, so maybe her wearing Egyptian clothes makes sense? At least some of the time.

Having studied the evolution of Greco-Roman coinage, you really do have to pick out the broad details - like the hooked nose, the hairstyle, so forth. Because stuff like this is ultimately derived from Roman iconography about chariots and Apollo.

Otherwise yeah, there's room to handwave in there.
 

120v

Member
i'd like to see a game go balls to the wall with historical accuracy but i don't think anybody goes into AC expecting a 1:1 sense of immersion. no doubt the team did their homework but you can tell from a 5 min gameplay video there's no bones made about the world being anything but pseudo ancient eygpt
 
I'll be honest I came into this thread expecting her to be portrayed as a giant spider or something. Not as a human woman. Granted I know nothing about how she looked in real life so I am cool. If this kind of thing is important to you though I can dig it.
 

Kurdel

Banned
Sometimes it's best to ignore historical accuracies.

4e26f0bf9c8e645c9df4c89e0da2b92f.jpg

Are you 12?
 

Faynwulf

Member
I wish I could see the timeline/universe where Ubisoft decided to make her look like a monster created through decades of Ptolemy inbreeding. Boy, this thread would be a lot more interesting.
 

Harlequin

Member
The pictures presented in the OP mostly convince me that we don't have any real idea what Cleopatra looked like, because they don't really look similar to each other.

As I've said, they all share some quite specific common features, many of which can also be found in depictions of Cleopatra's close relatives so while no single one of them is probably entirely accurate, put together they do give you at least a rough idea of what she probably looked like and one that is quite different from the way Ubisoft are depicting her here.

As for clothing, Cleopatra seems to have identified herself more with Egypt than her predecessors, learning Egyptian and identifying herself with Isis, so maybe her wearing Egyptian clothes makes sense? At least some of the time.

The identification with Isis wasn't really unique to Cleopatra. For example, here's a cameo showing Berenice II (a Ptolemaic queen who lived around two centuries before Cleopatra VII) as Isis: http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...-collection/18.+Carved+Stones/1002548/?lng=en

It is true that Cleopatra was the first of the Ptolemies to learn Egyptian and, as I've noted, it's even possible that her mother was Egyptian (though, AFAIK, there's as little proof for that theory as there is against it) but she would've still grown up in a predominantly Greek environment. Alexandria, while quite multicultural, was really more of a Greek than an Egyptian city, the Alexandrian upper class was almot exclusively Greek and Greeks and Egyptians didn't mingle all that much (there were even separate sets of law for Egyptians and Greeks - for example, Egyptian women at the time had far more rights than Greek women did). Chances are that, if an Egyptian did manage to find their way into the Alexandrian upper class, they would have adopted Greek fashions in the process. Cleopatra would have been surrounded almost exclusively with Greek culture, customs and fashion for the entirety of her upbringing and consequently, when she was queen, almost her entire court would have been Greek. Undoubtedly, she would have worn Egyptian attire during certain religious festivities, perhaps also when visiting other, more Egyptian parts of the country to give the Egyptian people the impression that she was their queen, not some foreign oppressor (though, in some ways, she obviously was) but during daily life at court? Almost certainly not. She may have been queen but if her family's history teaches us anything, it's that being a Ptolemaic ruler was not as stable a job as one might think. Keeping the court and the Alexandrian people on your good side was essential to keeping your throne and your head and the court being predominantly Greek, even if Cleopatra had wanted to wear more traditional Egyptian clothing, I can't imagine that would've made her more popular with her Greek subjects whose favour she needed (especiall early on in her reign). Haha, I didn't mean for this post to get so long, sorry :p. But I hope that gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from.

Welp. I had always thought she was just part Greek. Learned something new.

She may have been, we don't know for sure. Some people think she was pretty much 100% Greek, some think she was 50% Egyptian or maybe 25%, and so on and so forth. We can be pretty much certain that she was at least half-Greek but anything else is mostly speculation.
 

ItsTheNew

I believe any game made before 1997 is "essentially cave man art."
I prefer the ACO adaptation. It would be nice to have some good looking main characters in more games vs trying to ugly everyone up.
 
It could be an interesting discussion, comparing depictions of Cleopatra throughout history and media.

I think that AC:O does a decent job. She could probably look a bit more greek. But it's likely important to have her be instantly recognisable. As for her modern-day sex-appeal, I think it makes sense. If they want to depict her as beautiful and sexy to a modern audience, then she needs to conform in some degree to modern "standards".
 

Jocund

Member
Thank you for this topic, OP. Very enlightening and you've reminded me of my love of history.

Accuracies in depictions of historical figures in media are always pretty fun to discuss.
 
Blah blah blah I got a sociology degree blah blah blah

Dude it's Ubisoft

According to Ubi Charles Darwin equipped London's underworld with hallucinogenic darts in his spare time

Come on man

What were you expecting??!
 

SilentRob

Member
I prefer the ACO adaptation. It would be nice to have some good looking main characters in more games vs trying to ugly everyone up.

What. In what parallel world are "good looking main characters" in short supply while everyone is getting "uglied up"? o0

Ceasar still looks like an old dude. Why didn't he get the beauty treatment, getting turned into a beautiful and dashing George Clooney? What about that young asshole-prince from the trailer? Just going "eh, it's fiction" is a lame answer that dodges the actual problems with this.
 
OP has a lot of interesting info about Cleopatra that could have been useful to Ubisoft who are suppose to care about these games historical settings, but LOL FIRST POST OWNS AMIRITE?!
 
Really interesting take on the design. The issue doesn't bother me at all, but this is valuable criticism for the developers and even people on the forum who in the future will approach modelling cleopatra. At the end of the day, it's just some more info people can think about and digest so that their design choices are more informed. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will design someone to OP's specification (or would that be reality's spec?), it just means they'll have a broader range of info to draw from before they do whatever they want to.

How close was Civ 6's interpretation, despite its caricature-like art style?
 

Muffdraul

Member
It's funny how almost all of the early leaked info dump turned out to be true except "They're setting it in ancient Egypt way way back in like 4000 BC so they won't have to be constrained by historical events and figures for once."
 
A lot of the historical stuff we get about Cleopatra is also going to involve propaganda at the time, with Octavian wanting to portray her as a husband-stealing seductress to justify to the Roman people his conquest of Egypt and attack on Mark Antony.

End of the day though I don't want ugly people in my game or TV shows, I wanna see pretty people doing cool and interesting things. I play games to escape reality, and that mix of historical accuracy and historical fiction to make it "appealing" is a fine line to walk which Ubi has done pretty well with Assassin's Creed. I'm sure the pirates and prostitutes of Nassau were a lot more gross and nasty than in AC4 but I'll stick with the video game version.
 

UrbanRats

Member
OP has a lot of interesting info about Cleopatra that could have been useful to Ubisoft who are suppose to care about these games historical settings, but LOL FIRST POST OWNS AMIRITE?!
?
I'm sure they are aware, since they have historians they work with.
And their games have never been historically accurate to that degree at all, despite what marketing bullshit they may come up with in interviews.
This was likely a willful design decision (based on marketing and other factors, but i doubt sheer ignorance of the op's information).

Not to remove anything from the OP, of course, but saying this info could've been useful to Ubisoft, is silly.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Just pointing out that that's not the only design for Cleopatra in the game:
aco_screen_cleopatracmtohm.jpg


Gonna guess that her face is at least somewhat based on the person playing her like Bayek.
 

Ralemont

not me
That's not even...................I'm done.

You don't understand that the Cleo in this game isn't the real Cleopatra but a fictional representation in a made-up story?

This is not a blanket immunity from criticism. I found the OP fascinating, something that's nice to be aware of. This is a really lazy response.

Won't stop everyone from quoting it because it's such a sweet zinger, of course.

The OP is interesting as a comparison to the "real" Cleopatra (which we are apparently gleaning from scrawls on metal, but whatever).

It's not interesting as a criticism.
 

EvB

Member
One thing that may have not been touched on is that in the most recent assassin’s creed games you are playing a character who is playing a video game which has been designed by a games company. It wouldn’t be totally out of place if they character had been overly sexualised or whitewashed as an observation of the games industry and it’s games....
 
While I personally don't care as long as she's hot OP made a great opening post and all these stupid people with their drive by posts about how it's just a game or whatever should be fucking ashamed.
 
One thing that may have not been touched on is that in the most recent assassin's creed games you are playing a character who is playing a video game which has been designed by a games company. It wouldn't be totally out of place if they character had been overly sexualised or whitewashed as an observation of the games industry and it's games....

Do we know if they're still continuing the meta game dev subplot? The animus has been different with each game.
 

Nheco

Member
All the ancient Egyptians are dead, so let the designers depict Cleopatra in the f... way they want. Why everything must be a problem nowadays?
 
All the ancient Egyptians are dead, so let the designers depict Cleopatra in the f... way they want. Why everything must be a problem nowadays?

Maybe it would have been cool to depict Cleopatra as something vastly different than what we see from Hollywood. This is a pretty basic Cleo design.
 
Soon as I saw this thread I thought she was gonna be white.

I'm so shocked they made her a person of color I'm willing to overlook the other stuff tbh
 

BajiBoxer

Banned
The OP is interesting, but as a piece that is still primarily concerned with entertainment, I don't think an accurate depiction of Cleopatra would work too well. When it comes down to it, she is known as the most beautiful woman of the time. If she were designed more accurately and to guesses of ancient beauty standards, I don't think it would convey the right impression to the gameplayer.

I could've done with some tweaks, like a more Hellenistic look though.

One thing I always thought would be interesting for these sorts of things would be including a mini-documentary or small history lessons comparing aspects of their games to real history, and detailing what changes they made and why. It'd be a cool extras option in the game.
 

Bog

Junior Ace
I discussed this topic over lunch with my friend Lou. When I showed him the OP, he said "That guy's off his rocker."

I honestly don't care how she's portrayed. It's fiction. More people would complain if they made her look like the face on the coins.
 
The OP is interesting, but as a piece that is still primarily concerned with entertainment, I don't think an accurate depiction of Cleopatra would work too well. When it comes down to it, she is known as the most beautiful woman of the time. If she were designed more accurately and to guesses of ancient beauty standards, I don't think it would convey the right impression to the gameplayer.

I could've done with some tweaks, like a more Hellenistic look though.

One thing I always thought would be interesting for these sorts of things would be including a mini-documentary or small history lessons comparing aspects of their games to real history, and detailing what changes they made and why. It'd be a cool extras option in the game.

That actually would be an interesting supplement, especially since Ubisoft has now covered a lot of time periods and taken artistic license with a lot of historic places and people. A dissection of the how and why on the choices they made from that would be pretty informative.
 
You know what. I went to see a movie called Wonder Woman and the actress who played her wasn't even Greek. OH THE HORROR. I could have cried my eyes out but instead I went in and watched the movie and had a great time.

The stupidity of this response can't be overstated.

As for the the OP, I'm unsurprised. Most AAA studios seem to lack imagination when it comes to portraying women. (And to a large extent, men as well.) We end up with mostly generic portrayals of what "beauty" is supposed to mean. I guess we should be thankful they didn't slap enormous, fake breasts on her at least.
 
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